Guest guest Posted January 15, 2011 Report Share Posted January 15, 2011 You and Chuck both claim that Synthroid is bio-identical, however how can you make that claim in the face of this? http://thyroid.about.com/od/synthroid/a/acacia-lactose.htm <>Roni Immortality exists! It's called knowledge! Just because something isn't seen doesn't mean it's not there<> > > Here's an overview from one source. It may or may not be the only > > viewpoint that is viable, but it's a start. > > > > http://drknews.com/which-thyroid-hormone-is-right-for-you/ > <http://drknews.com/which-thyroid-hormone-is-right-for-you/> > > I'm with on this one. A doctor who pushes Armour because it is > " bio-identical, > " while Synthroid is not, but merely synthetic, is either > a quack or incompetent. I would be very leery, either way. > > The T4 in Synthroid is completely chemically identical to the T4 in > Armour. This is the usual meaning of bio-identical, to distinguish drugs > such as prednisone from what it mimics, cortisol, the bioidentical form. > What is different about Armour is that it made from dessicated thyroid > gland, so it contains T3 and some of the metabolic by-products, such as > T2 and T1, as well as calcitonin. > > A second meaning of bio-identical is that a mixture matches the mixture > we produce or receive, including buffers and incipient ingredients. > There are several reasons why this mixture cannot claim to be > bio-identical in this sense, even though the ingredients are chemically > identical to the synthetics. > > First, dessicated porcine thyroid glands have a higher ratio of T3 to T4 > than in humans. Secondly, since the Armour must be digested and > absorbed, it reaches the blood in a very different form than what is > released from a functioning gland. The biggest difference is that nearly > 100% of the T3 is absorbed, but only about 80% of the T4. This makes the > ratio of T3 to T4 even greater. If food, drink, or supplements are taken > near the dose, even less of the T4 is absorbed, thus making making > Armour nearly the same as just taking synthetic T3, Cytomel. > > So, Armour is not " natural " in its effects just because it is an animal > byproduct, and its active ingredients are no more nor less identical to > the hormones produced by a living gland than are the synthetics. It may > be a great nostrum for you; many rave about it, but these labels > (bio-identical and natural) are just incorrect and misleading hype. > > Chuck ------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2011 Report Share Posted January 15, 2011 I don't think any of these things are bio-identical, and I don't have to swallow everything that alternative medicine or allopathic medicine puts out. We are all free to make up our own minds and everyone can believe what they want. Just because some information in an article is incorrect or misleading doesn't mean that all of it is that way. I think the more reading we do on all types of protocols helps our understanding and educates us to be more aware of what will or won't be good for us personally. <>Roni Immortality exists! It's called knowledge! Just because something isn't seen doesn't mean it's not there<> > > Everything you say may be entirely true, but I personally have known > > people who had been put on Synthroid, and did very badly, and then were > > put on Armour and did very well.... > > I wasn't knocking Armour. For some, it is the only thing that works. My > objection was to Dr. K calling it bio-identical in contrast to > synthetics or suggesting it is superior because it is natural. > > BTW, Dr. K's degrees and honors are all in the field of chiropractic, > including his nutrition degrees. > > Chuck ------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2011 Report Share Posted January 15, 2011 We're all so glad of that. I know a young lady [twenties/ maybe early thirties?] with two young children who discovered recently that she has advanced ovarian cancer. Not hopeful at all. I'm very sorry to hear this . She is so young, and the fact that she has young children makes it even sadder. I talked with a woman who goes to the same Curves I do today, because I was told she had her thyroid removed. She works in a nearby grocery store, and I looked for her today when I went there. She told me that she had nodules her doctor had been watching for a couple of years. Recently he told her that there is one kind of thyroid Cancer that can't be detected by a biopsy, and suggested she have her thyroid removed. She had the surgery, and there was no Cancer. She told me she had gone through several biopsies during the past couple of years. Does anyone know if it's true that one type of Cancer can't be diagnosed with a biopsy? I mentioned to the doctor at the Mayo Clinic that I had read about patients whose nodules grew so large they had their thyroid removed, and even though biopsies had not detected it, there was Cancer found as a result of the surgery. He didn't seem at alll concerned about that possibility. Barb Re: More Numbers Hi, Barb. Please see below... .. .. > Posted by: " H " macbarb0503@... > <mailto:macbarb0503@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20More%20Numbers> > westieabbey <westieabbey> > > > Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:27 am (PST) > > > > > .. wrote: > >Easy weight loss with hypothyroidism typically just don't go together; > >something else that confounds me. Usually with hypo you tend to gain > >weight or to have problems losing weight. That's IMHO because your > >metabolism is lowered and you burn fewer calories in just maintaining > >your life processes. > > , > > That's why it was so important for me to know I have Hashimoto's. > Because of the swings from hypo to hyper, there can be weight loss. .. .. I suspect that in such a case the majority of the weight loss occurs during hypEr swings instead of during hypO swings. Not sure though... .. .. > Also, I've read that the multi-nodular goiter can also cause weight > loss. The doctors didn't tell me any of this, so because of the > swelling on the sides of my neck, of course I wondered if I might have > Cancer. Thank God the biopsy came back benign. .. .. We're all so glad of that. I know a young lady [twenties/ maybe early thirties?] with two young children who discovered recently that she has advanced ovarian cancer. Not hopeful at all. .. .. > > > " In our culture we males have tended to " talk down " > >to women, even when we don't intend to do so; and further, when it is > >totally unjustified. You may just have to put you foot down and insist > >that you be an equal partner in your quest to find out what is going on > >and to get the relief you need. " .. .. > > WOW! It's big of you to admit that! It is something that I have > experienced many times, especially when having cars serviced through > the years. I do put my foot down, but many times have been laughed at. > For some reason, certain people think it's funny because I am 5'1 " , > and through the years my weight has varied from 94 to 118, with an > average of 110. It's like a double whammy when you're a woman and > you're small too. LOL! > > Barb .. .. Actually it's somewhat painful. I can't see it in myself nearly as well as I can see it in other males dealing with women but it happens so often that I guess I'm probably guilty too. After all I'm pretty hard-headed and that probably comes off as being even more put-down when I'm butting heads with women. I almost can't help but laugh in situations such as going with my wife when she's buying a car. If the salesperson is male almost without exception in a few microseconds the questions and discourse from the salesperson will be directed to me. Depending upon the attitude of the salesperson I might gently remind him that she's the one buying the car; or I can wait for my wife to rather abruptly inform him of the [already mentioned] fact. Of course my wife doesn't know a wrist pin from elbow grease, and the salesman probably guesses that to be the case. But she is often interested in vastly different attributes in a car than I would be, and she is quite capable of inquiring about those. Best, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2011 Report Share Posted January 15, 2011 Barb, I think that at this point you are scaring yourself. The Mayo Clinic is an excellent hospital, and people go there from all over the country. The woman you met at the Curves place allowed a doctor to remove her thyroid on the premise that there " might " be cancer, and there was none. That's not a good enough reason to remove anything. The researchers are working on a blood test that will show 1 cancer cell in a billion regular cells. Advances are coming. Right now, it would be a good idea for you to try to relax and not give your body stress it doesn't need.The calmer and more relaxed you are, the less likely you are to have thyroid cancer. I'm saying this with love. If I were there I would give you a hug, so if you have someone to hug you ask for it. Sometimes we all need one. <>Roni Immortality exists! It's called knowledge! Just because something isn't seen doesn't mean it's not there<> > >Easy weight loss with hypothyroidism typically just don't go together; > >something else that confounds me. Usually with hypo you tend to gain > >weight or to have problems losing weight. That's IMHO because your > >metabolism is lowered and you burn fewer calories in just maintaining > >your life processes. > > , > > That's why it was so important for me to know I have Hashimoto's. > Because of the swings from hypo to hyper, there can be weight loss. .. .. I suspect that in such a case the majority of the weight loss occurs during hypEr swings instead of during hypO swings. Not sure though... .. .. > Also, I've read that the multi-nodular goiter can also cause weight > loss. The doctors didn't tell me any of this, so because of the > swelling on the sides of my neck, of course I wondered if I might have > Cancer. Thank God the biopsy came back benign. .. .. We're all so glad of that. I know a young lady [twenties/ maybe early thirties?] with two young children who discovered recently that she has advanced ovarian cancer. Not hopeful at all. .. .. > > > " In our culture we males have tended to " talk down " > >to women, even when we don't intend to do so; and further, when it is > >totally unjustified. You may just have to put you foot down and insist > >that you be an equal partner in your quest to find out what is going on > >and to get the relief you need. " .. .. > > WOW! It's big of you to admit that! It is something that I have > experienced many times, especially when having cars serviced through > the years. I do put my foot down, but many times have been laughed at. > For some reason, certain people think it's funny because I am 5'1 " , > and through the years my weight has varied from 94 to 118, with an > average of 110. It's like a double whammy when you're a woman and > you're small too. LOL! > > Barb .. .. Actually it's somewhat painful. I can't see it in myself nearly as well as I can see it in other males dealing with women but it happens so often that I guess I'm probably guilty too. After all I'm pretty hard-headed and that probably comes off as being even more put-down when I'm butting heads with women. I almost can't help but laugh in situations such as going with my wife when she's buying a car. If the salesperson is male almost without exception in a few microseconds the questions and discourse from the salesperson will be directed to me. Depending upon the attitude of the salesperson I might gently remind him that she's the one buying the car; or I can wait for my wife to rather abruptly inform him of the [already mentioned] fact. Of course my wife doesn't know a wrist pin from elbow grease, and the salesman probably guesses that to be the case. But she is often interested in vastly different attributes in a car than I would be, and she is quite capable of inquiring about those. Best, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2011 Report Share Posted January 15, 2011 Well thanks Roni. Believe it or not, I'm not worried about it. I'm just curious. Like you I believe The Mayo Clinic is an excellent medical facility, and feel very fortunate to have been able to go there. I'm thankful every day that I have access to good medical care, and sorry that so many others in our country don't. I would like to see everyone have access to the quality of care Congresswoman le Giffords is receiving. The woman from Curves goes to the same medical group I go to, since as I mentioned they have a monopoly in this area. I was surprised to hear that a doctor would suggest she have her thyroid removed, in case she MIGHT have Cancer. When I asked what kind of doctor said that, she said he's a surgeon. Thanks for your concern and support, and for the cyber hug. It's true we all need one sometimes, and I'm fortunate to have others around me who are affectionate. I know what you are saying about stress is also true, and it's very important to relax. One way I have of doing that is to focus outward. I went to a therapy dog luncheon yesterday. Of course we didn't take the dogs, but we do take them to visit patients in nursing homes and hospitals. Some people are surprised that dogs are allowed in medical facilities, but research has shown that petting a dog lowers blood pressure. I've seen patients who don't respond positively to anything light up and open up, when they see a dog in their room. We never go in without asking patients if they like dogs and would like to visit. They don't worry about how they look or feel when a dog visits, and enjoy the unconditional love. A long walk, a soothing bath, a good book, a workout, playing Scrabble with friends on-line, or calling to inquire about friends on the phone are other ways I like to relax. The big hug is still to come though! My son, who has been deployed to Iraq for the last year is supposed to be back on January 22nd. I don't remember if I mentioned he's in the Army Band, and has traveled around Iraq with the band entertaining troops for the past year. He's in Kansas now. It was such a joy to see him in July when he was home for a short time. My daughter-in-law clung to him, and they were so happy just to be together. If there is anything good about the long separations, it's that they don't take each other for granted like many couples who are together every day may tend to do. Hugs to you and everyone here, Barb Re: Re: More Numbers Barb, I think that at this point you are scaring yourself. The Mayo Clinic is an excellent hospital, and people go there from all over the country. The woman you met at the Curves place allowed a doctor to remove her thyroid on the premise that there " might " be cancer, and there was none. That's not a good enough reason to remove anything. The researchers are working on a blood test that will show 1 cancer cell in a billion regular cells. Advances are coming. Right now, it would be a good idea for you to try to relax and not give your body stress it doesn't need.The calmer and more relaxed you are, the less likely you are to have thyroid cancer. I'm saying this with love. If I were there I would give you a hug, so if you have someone to hug you ask for it. Sometimes we all need one. <>Roni Immortality exists! It's called knowledge! Just because something isn't seen doesn't mean it's not there<> > >Easy weight loss with hypothyroidism typically just don't go together; > >something else that confounds me. Usually with hypo you tend to gain > >weight or to have problems losing weight. That's IMHO because your > >metabolism is lowered and you burn fewer calories in just maintaining > >your life processes. > > , > > That's why it was so important for me to know I have Hashimoto's. > Because of the swings from hypo to hyper, there can be weight loss. .. .. I suspect that in such a case the majority of the weight loss occurs during hypEr swings instead of during hypO swings. Not sure though... .. .. > Also, I've read that the multi-nodular goiter can also cause weight > loss. The doctors didn't tell me any of this, so because of the > swelling on the sides of my neck, of course I wondered if I might have > Cancer. Thank God the biopsy came back benign. .. .. We're all so glad of that. I know a young lady [twenties/ maybe early thirties?] with two young children who discovered recently that she has advanced ovarian cancer. Not hopeful at all. .. .. > > > " In our culture we males have tended to " talk down " > >to women, even when we don't intend to do so; and further, when it is > >totally unjustified. You may just have to put you foot down and insist > >that you be an equal partner in your quest to find out what is going on > >and to get the relief you need. " .. .. > > WOW! It's big of you to admit that! It is something that I have > experienced many times, especially when having cars serviced through > the years. I do put my foot down, but many times have been laughed at. > For some reason, certain people think it's funny because I am 5'1 " , > and through the years my weight has varied from 94 to 118, with an > average of 110. It's like a double whammy when you're a woman and > you're small too. LOL! > > Barb .. .. Actually it's somewhat painful. I can't see it in myself nearly as well as I can see it in other males dealing with women but it happens so often that I guess I'm probably guilty too. After all I'm pretty hard-headed and that probably comes off as being even more put-down when I'm butting heads with women. I almost can't help but laugh in situations such as going with my wife when she's buying a car. If the salesperson is male almost without exception in a few microseconds the questions and discourse from the salesperson will be directed to me. Depending upon the attitude of the salesperson I might gently remind him that she's the one buying the car; or I can wait for my wife to rather abruptly inform him of the [already mentioned] fact. Of course my wife doesn't know a wrist pin from elbow grease, and the salesman probably guesses that to be the case. But she is often interested in vastly different attributes in a car than I would be, and she is quite capable of inquiring about those. Best, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2011 Report Share Posted January 15, 2011 I have two newspapers delivered to my house each day; I usually read much of the news in one of them. I skip most sports and advertisements. I suspect that if you follow up on some of the stories you will find important facts left our or misrepresented. If not then you should be able to find a follow-up story of the insurance company losing a multi-million dollar lawsuit. Honestly, if such a case happened to a child of yours where the insurance clearly failed to live up to its contract do you think that you could step outside your door without tripping over a dozen lawyers??? As I said before: I DO think we need to make some changes. I just don't think the government bureaucracy is the entity to entrust with our entire health care system. And I certainly do not have the expertise to suggest all of the changes needed, especially knowing the insidious nature of unintended consequences. Regards, .. .. > Posted by: " Roni Molin " matchermaam@... > <mailto:matchermaam@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20More%20Numbers> > matchermaam <matchermaam> > > > Fri Jan 14, 2011 7:13 pm (PST) > > > > You've been fortunate . Others not so. People who had insurance > and were taken down by deadly illnesses have been denied treatments > that would have saved their lives, and died because of that. This > includes chldren who were fully covered under their parents policies. > These facts have been all over the news. I'm surprised you haven't > seen them. > > <>Roni Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2011 Report Share Posted January 15, 2011 I don't doubt that you know a lot more about some of the facets of hypothyroidism than I do; I'm no expert. And further I haven't had the years of searching for help that you did, and gained the knowledge that you did along the way. I would also assume that you know that all of the T3 and T4 molecules are bioidentical; Chuck and I have mentioned that many times. So it surprised me that you seemed to be recommending an article written by someone who is supposed to be some kind of expert but seems to be lacking such elemental knowledge. Even if it's only for the purpose of discussion it is IMHO totally confusing to start the discussion with a number of incorrect facts unless the errors in those facts are clearly pointed out. How else would someone new to this group and reading the article be informed that Dr. K is full of bs? Regards, .. .. > Posted by: " Roni Molin " matchermaam@... > <mailto:matchermaam@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20More%20Numbers> > matchermaam <matchermaam> > > > Fri Jan 14, 2011 7:15 pm (PST) > > > > I'm not. I just thought it was a simple jumping off point of > explanation of how things work in > the thyroid field. I don't have to believe every word he says or buy > anything he's selling. However, maybe that's because I might know more > than some about this subject. > > <>Roni > Immortality exists! > It's called knowledge! > > Just because something isn't seen > doesn't mean it's not there<> > > > > From: <res075oh@... <mailto:res075oh%40verizon.net>> > Subject: Re: More Numbers > hypothyroidism > <mailto:hypothyroidism%40> > Date: Friday, January 14, 2011, 6:22 PM > > That is a perfect example. In the very first paragraph Dr. K reveals > the fact that he does not know that all of the T4 and T3 molecules are > bioidentical; or else he chooses to try to hide the fact. How could you > possibly put any confidence in anything he says??? > > Regards, > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2011 Report Share Posted January 15, 2011 The article does not address whether T4 and/or T3 molecules are bioidentical. What they are discussing is things like the binders, fillers, coloring agents and so on that are in many/most medications. Those materials are purposely chosen to be inert for most people; unfortunately it doesn't work for everyone. If you are sensitive to one of these usually inert agents then you can have a reaction to it. To recap: The T4/T3 molecules from any source are all bioidentical. The inert ingredients can vary from one medication to another and it will still be essentially bioidentical in its action for the typical patient. For the person with an allergy to one of the usually inert ingredients then the pill would not IMHO be in total bioidentical to one that used a different agent. I think that probably you were involved with something exactly like that with Armour. It was changed somehow and quite a few people reported adverse reactions. Yet Forrest Labs insisted they had made no substantive changes. IIRC later it came out that one or more of the inert ingredients had been changed. AFAIK it would have been highly illegal for them to change the active ingredients so I suspect they did not. Regards, .. .. > > Posted by: " Roni Molin " matchermaam@... > <mailto:matchermaam@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20More%20Numbers> > matchermaam <matchermaam> > > > Fri Jan 14, 2011 7:18 pm (PST) > > > > You and Chuck both claim that Synthroid is bio-identical, however how > can you make that claim in the face of this? > > http://thyroid.about.com/od/synthroid/a/acacia-lactose.htm > <http://thyroid.about.com/od/synthroid/a/acacia-lactose.htm> > > <>Roni > Immortality exists! > It's called knowledge! > > Just because something isn't seen > doesn't mean it's not there<> > > > > > Here's an overview from one source. It may or may not be the only > > > viewpoint that is viable, but it's a start. > > > > > > http://drknews.com/which-thyroid-hormone-is-right-for-you/ > <http://drknews.com/which-thyroid-hormone-is-right-for-you/> > > <http://drknews.com/which-thyroid-hormone-is-right-for-you/ > <http://drknews.com/which-thyroid-hormone-is-right-for-you/>> > > > > I'm with on this one. A doctor who pushes Armour because it is > > " bio-identical, > > " while Synthroid is not, but merely synthetic, is either > > a quack or incompetent. I would be very leery, either way. > > > > The T4 in Synthroid is completely chemically identical to the T4 in > > Armour. This is the usual meaning of bio-identical, to distinguish drugs > > such as prednisone from what it mimics, cortisol, the bioidentical form. > > What is different about Armour is that it made from dessicated thyroid > > gland, so it contains T3 and some of the metabolic by-products, such as > > T2 and T1, as well as calcitonin. > > > > A second meaning of bio-identical is that a mixture matches the mixture > > we produce or receive, including buffers and incipient ingredients. > > There are several reasons why this mixture cannot claim to be > > bio-identical in this sense, even though the ingredients are chemically > > identical to the synthetics. > > > > First, dessicated porcine thyroid glands have a higher ratio of T3 to T4 > > than in humans. Secondly, since the Armour must be digested and > > absorbed, it reaches the blood in a very different form than what is > > released from a functioning gland. The biggest difference is that nearly > > 100% of the T3 is absorbed, but only about 80% of the T4. This makes the > > ratio of T3 to T4 even greater. If food, drink, or supplements are taken > > near the dose, even less of the T4 is absorbed, thus making making > > Armour nearly the same as just taking synthetic T3, Cytomel. > > > > So, Armour is not " natural " in its effects just because it is an animal > > byproduct, and its active ingredients are no more nor less identical to > > the hormones produced by a living gland than are the synthetics. It may > > be a great nostrum for you; many rave about it, but these labels > > (bio-identical and natural) are just incorrect and misleading hype. > > > > Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2011 Report Share Posted January 15, 2011 Unfortunately I don't know. I have read that biopsies are not always 100% reliable but I don't know what the reliability number would be. Apparently it's possible to miss the cancer in a gland with the needle aspiration but I don't have a clue how likely that is. Luck, .. .. > Posted by: " H " macbarb0503@... > <mailto:macbarb0503@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20More%20Numbers> > westieabbey <westieabbey> > > > Fri Jan 14, 2011 8:26 pm (PST) > > > > wrote: > > >We're all so glad of that. I know a young lady [twenties/ maybe early > >thirties?] with two young children who discovered recently that she has > >advanced ovarian cancer. Not hopeful at all. > > I'm very sorry to hear this . She is so young, and the fact that > she has young children makes it even sadder. > > I talked with a woman who goes to the same Curves I do today, because > I was told she had her thyroid removed. She works in a nearby grocery > store, and I looked for her today when I went there. She told me that > she had nodules her doctor had been watching for a couple of years. > Recently he told her that there is one kind of thyroid Cancer that > can't be detected by a biopsy, and suggested she have her thyroid > removed. She had the surgery, and there was no Cancer. She told me she > had gone through several biopsies during the past couple of years. > > Does anyone know if it's true that one type of Cancer can't be > diagnosed with a biopsy? I mentioned to the doctor at the Mayo Clinic > that I had read about patients whose nodules grew so large they had > their thyroid removed, and even though biopsies had not detected it, > there was Cancer found as a result of the surgery. He didn't seem at > alll concerned about that possibility. > > Barb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2011 Report Share Posted January 15, 2011 , You wrote: > > FAIK there may well be a world of difference between bioidentical > estrogen, or there may not; I simply do not know. There is, although not in efficacy for relieving symptoms of menopause and osteoporosis, the main purpose of HRT. The difference is mainly in side effects. The common synthetic version is much more potent with more alleged problematic side effects for some people in HRT. Unfortunately, improved safety has really only been documented for progesterone. For the other hormones the effects seem to scale with dose, much as with the differences between levothyroxine and Armour, or they are highly individualized, meaning that the evidence is largely anecdotal. Ditto for testosterone. This is why quacks like to claim that whatever product they are pushing is " bio-identical, " whether or not that even makes sense. The claim enhances sales because of the promotions of bio-identical estrogen and cortisol. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2011 Report Share Posted January 15, 2011 Roni, You wrote: > You've been fortunate . Others not so. People who had insurance and > were taken down by deadly illnesses have been denied treatments that > would have saved their lives, and died because of that. This includes > chldren who were fully covered under their parents policies. These > facts have been all over the news. I'm surprised you haven't seen them. > The only cases I have seen reported involve experimental treatments or ones approved for other conditions (off label) that might or might not work. The " contracts " I have selected with insurance companies explicitly exclude funding experiments for treatments outside the medicare defined mainstream. If examples of deaths of fully covered children denied a contracted treatment ex post facto is all over the news, you should have no problem finding us an example, right? Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2011 Report Share Posted January 15, 2011 Roni, You wrote: > You and Chuck both claim that Synthroid is bio-identical, however how > can you make that claim in the face of this? Incipient ingredients are outside the definition of bio-identical. The issue is restricted to the chemical structure of the hormone. Armour also has incipient ingredients in its mixture. The fact that many reacted badly to the recent change in these extra ingredients does not in any way affect the status of the hormone molecules as bio-identical. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2011 Report Share Posted January 15, 2011 Barb, You wrote: > > Does anyone know if it's true that one type of Cancer can't be diagnosed > with a biopsy?... A biopsy can miss any type of cancer. That is why you keep repeating biopsies at least every six months with suspicious thyroid nodules. A fine needle aspiration removes a tiny volume of cells in a very restricted fraction of the nodule. This is in part to prevent scattering cancer cells around that might otherwise stay contained. Then, the pathology examination only scans a tiny fraction of these extracted cells. Cells are so small, that it would take months for someone to examine every last cell in an aspiration. They typically look for a matter of minutes. They also have automated imaging analysis systems that can catch large anomalies, but there is no substitution for a trained eye. So, it is quite possible for the density of cancer cells in the nodule to be so low that the needle or the pathologist misses them. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2011 Report Share Posted January 15, 2011 Barb, You wrote: > > ... research has shown that petting a dog lowers > blood pressure. I've seen patients who don't respond positively to > anything light up and open up, when they see a dog in their room. A few minutes ago, my Great Pyrenees " puppy " gave me some therapy by destroying a pair of shoes. Earlier this morning, we found her chewing up a journal I had not yet read. She's approaching 6 months old and 75 pounds. Eats like a horse, well, a meat-eating horse. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2011 Report Share Posted January 15, 2011 I agree, having your son come home is the ultimate hug and I'm so happy for you. <>Roni Immortality exists! It's called knowledge! Just because something isn't seen doesn't mean it's not there<> > >Easy weight loss with hypothyroidism typically just don't go together; > >something else that confounds me. Usually with hypo you tend to gain > >weight or to have problems losing weight. That's IMHO because your > >metabolism is lowered and you burn fewer calories in just maintaining > >your life processes. > > , > > That's why it was so important for me to know I have Hashimoto's. > Because of the swings from hypo to hyper, there can be weight loss. .. .. I suspect that in such a case the majority of the weight loss occurs during hypEr swings instead of during hypO swings. Not sure though... .. .. > Also, I've read that the multi-nodular goiter can also cause weight > loss. The doctors didn't tell me any of this, so because of the > swelling on the sides of my neck, of course I wondered if I might have > Cancer. Thank God the biopsy came back benign. .. .. We're all so glad of that. I know a young lady [twenties/ maybe early thirties?] with two young children who discovered recently that she has advanced ovarian cancer. Not hopeful at all. .. .. > > > " In our culture we males have tended to " talk down " > >to women, even when we don't intend to do so; and further, when it is > >totally unjustified. You may just have to put you foot down and insist > >that you be an equal partner in your quest to find out what is going on > >and to get the relief you need. " .. .. > > WOW! It's big of you to admit that! It is something that I have > experienced many times, especially when having cars serviced through > the years. I do put my foot down, but many times have been laughed at. > For some reason, certain people think it's funny because I am 5'1 " , > and through the years my weight has varied from 94 to 118, with an > average of 110. It's like a double whammy when you're a woman and > you're small too. LOL! > > Barb .. .. Actually it's somewhat painful. I can't see it in myself nearly as well as I can see it in other males dealing with women but it happens so often that I guess I'm probably guilty too. After all I'm pretty hard-headed and that probably comes off as being even more put-down when I'm butting heads with women. I almost can't help but laugh in situations such as going with my wife when she's buying a car. If the salesperson is male almost without exception in a few microseconds the questions and discourse from the salesperson will be directed to me. Depending upon the attitude of the salesperson I might gently remind him that she's the one buying the car; or I can wait for my wife to rather abruptly inform him of the [already mentioned] fact. Of course my wife doesn't know a wrist pin from elbow grease, and the salesman probably guesses that to be the case. But she is often interested in vastly different attributes in a car than I would be, and she is quite capable of inquiring about those. Best, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2011 Report Share Posted January 15, 2011 I seriously think that if a child has died because the insurance company denied treatment then even if 1,000 lawyers were at my door, none of them could bring back the child. <>Roni Immortality exists! It's called knowledge! Just because something isn't seen doesn't mean it's not there<> From: <res075oh@...> Subject: Re: More Numbers hypothyroidism Date: Saturday, January 15, 2011, 9:43 AM I have two newspapers delivered to my house each day; I usually read much of the news in one of them. I skip most sports and advertisements. I suspect that if you follow up on some of the stories you will find important facts left our or misrepresented. If not then you should be able to find a follow-up story of the insurance company losing a multi-million dollar lawsuit. Honestly, if such a case happened to a child of yours where the insurance clearly failed to live up to its contract do you think that you could step outside your door without tripping over a dozen lawyers??? As I said before: I DO think we need to make some changes. I just don't think the government bureaucracy is the entity to entrust with our entire health care system. And I certainly do not have the expertise to suggest all of the changes needed, especially knowing the insidious nature of unintended consequences. Regards, .. .. > Posted by: " Roni Molin " matchermaam@... > <mailto:matchermaam@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20More%20Numbers> > matchermaam <matchermaam> > > > Fri Jan 14, 2011 7:13 pm (PST) > > > > You've been fortunate . Others not so. People who had insurance > and were taken down by deadly illnesses have been denied treatments > that would have saved their lives, and died because of that. This > includes chldren who were fully covered under their parents policies. > These facts have been all over the news. I'm surprised you haven't > seen them. > > <>Roni ------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2011 Report Share Posted January 15, 2011 All right, I suppose I should have pointed that out. However, I still don't think ANY of them are bioidentical at least because of the extra ingredients and the delivery system (which Chuck has cited too). To me, bioidentical is exactly the same, and none of them are the same. Other ingredients can and do act to make the hormone behave differently, and so the bioidenticallity is gone. Does this make sense to you? <>Roni Immortality exists! It's called knowledge! Just because something isn't seen doesn't mean it's not there<> > > From: <res075oh@... <mailto:res075oh%40verizon.net>> > Subject: Re: More Numbers > hypothyroidism > <mailto:hypothyroidism%40> > Date: Friday, January 14, 2011, 6:22 PM > > That is a perfect example. In the very first paragraph Dr. K reveals > the fact that he does not know that all of the T4 and T3 molecules are > bioidentical; or else he chooses to try to hide the fact. How could you > possibly put any confidence in anything he says??? > > Regards, > ------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2011 Report Share Posted January 15, 2011 Well, we seem to agree on this. I don't trust Forest because of the fact that in the beginning they lied and said no one had reported an adverse reaction. As the calls and reports kept getting larger they finally said they changed one of the inert ingredients. If this was so why didn't they just say that right away. In fact, why didn't they announce it before it even got changed? Something smells fishy about this whole debacle to me. I am not one to judge up front, and give everyone a clear slate until and unless they mess it up themselves. In my opinion Forest did this, and I could not trust them. After hearing all the reports about the plastic and other junk China has been putting into products that get shopped to America, it would not surpise me if they changed their supplier to China, and that could have caused the problem. There's really no one that can convince me that the addition of cellulose could have made me to ill, especially as that substance is present in other things I have taken and do take today, and it does not make me sick. <>Roni Immortality exists! It's called knowledge! Just because something isn't seen doesn't mean it's not there<> > > > Here's an overview from one source. It may or may not be the only > > > viewpoint that is viable, but it's a start. > > > > > > http://drknews.com/which-thyroid-hormone-is-right-for-you/ > <http://drknews.com/which-thyroid-hormone-is-right-for-you/> > > <http://drknews.com/which-thyroid-hormone-is-right-for-you/ > <http://drknews.com/which-thyroid-hormone-is-right-for-you/>> > > > > I'm with on this one. A doctor who pushes Armour because it is > > " bio-identical, > > " while Synthroid is not, but merely synthetic, is either > > a quack or incompetent. I would be very leery, either way. > > > > The T4 in Synthroid is completely chemically identical to the T4 in > > Armour. This is the usual meaning of bio-identical, to distinguish drugs > > such as prednisone from what it mimics, cortisol, the bioidentical form. > > What is different about Armour is that it made from dessicated thyroid > > gland, so it contains T3 and some of the metabolic by-products, such as > > T2 and T1, as well as calcitonin. > > > > A second meaning of bio-identical is that a mixture matches the mixture > > we produce or receive, including buffers and incipient ingredients. > > There are several reasons why this mixture cannot claim to be > > bio-identical in this sense, even though the ingredients are chemically > > identical to the synthetics. > > > > First, dessicated porcine thyroid glands have a higher ratio of T3 to T4 > > than in humans. Secondly, since the Armour must be digested and > > absorbed, it reaches the blood in a very different form than what is > > released from a functioning gland. The biggest difference is that nearly > > 100% of the T3 is absorbed, but only about 80% of the T4. This makes the > > ratio of T3 to T4 even greater. If food, drink, or supplements are taken > > near the dose, even less of the T4 is absorbed, thus making making > > Armour nearly the same as just taking synthetic T3, Cytomel. > > > > So, Armour is not " natural " in its effects just because it is an animal > > byproduct, and its active ingredients are no more nor less identical to > > the hormones produced by a living gland than are the synthetics. It may > > be a great nostrum for you; many rave about it, but these labels > > (bio-identical and natural) are just incorrect and misleading hype. > > > > Chuck ------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2011 Report Share Posted January 15, 2011 Thanks Chuck. I guess the doctor will probably follow up with future biopsies then. The only thing that made me think there could possibly be Cancer is the fact that I have swelling around the lower neck, on the sides and a little in the front. Also, it has been easy to lose weight. Then there is the fact that you and some others think there is something else " afoot. " Since the biopsy was benign, I'm not worried about it, but will make sure to mention the possibility to my doctor, since what I read said it is difficult to diagnose. Also, my brother had Lymphoma, which might mean I am at greater risk for it genetically.. When it first appeared I googled the swelling, and Thyroid Lymphoma was one of the things that came up. I have mentioned this before, and will mention it to my doctor when I go, since he hasn't seen the swelling yet. You may recall, when I called in mid December, he said he'd look at it when I went for the biopsy in January. Since that was done in ville, I won't be seeing him until March. The Mayo Clinic doctor had no explanation for it. As I've written before, YOU are the only person who came up with any rational explanation because of inflammation of surrounding tissues with Hashimoto's. " Most people develop a lump in the thyroid. Sometimes there may be a larger swelling around the lower neck. This may cause a hoarse voice or difficulty in breathing or swallowing. Some people may have a history of Hashimoto's thyroiditis, which is an inflammatory condition of the thyroid that can be associated with several conditions, including thyroid lymphoma. " http://www.macmillan.org.uk/Cancerinformation/Cancertypes/Lymphomanon-Hodgkin/Ty\ pesofNHL/Thyroid.aspx You may decide this reference has no merit, since it's .org.uk. You have already said what you think about the UK system of medicine. I wasn't checking the UK, just the swelling, and that'swhat came up related to the thyroid. Barb Re: Re: More Numbers Barb, You wrote: > > Does anyone know if it's true that one type of Cancer can't be diagnosed > with a biopsy?... A biopsy can miss any type of cancer. That is why you keep repeating biopsies at least every six months with suspicious thyroid nodules. A fine needle aspiration removes a tiny volume of cells in a very restricted fraction of the nodule. This is in part to prevent scattering cancer cells around that might otherwise stay contained. Then, the pathology examination only scans a tiny fraction of these extracted cells. Cells are so small, that it would take months for someone to examine every last cell in an aspiration. They typically look for a matter of minutes. They also have automated imaging analysis systems that can catch large anomalies, but there is no substitution for a trained eye. So, it is quite possible for the density of cancer cells in the nodule to be so low that the needle or the pathologist misses them. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2011 Report Share Posted January 15, 2011 I agree, having your son come home is the ultimate hug and I'm so happy for you. Thanks Roni. I'm so thankful to have him back in the USA! Barb Re: Re: More Numbers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2011 Report Share Posted January 15, 2011 I'm sure that these denied treatments could well have been " experimental. However, the insurance companies cover " off label " drugs all the time. If a child or even an adult has a " chance of survival vs. death " I think the insurance companies have a moral obligation to allow that treatment rather than to sit by and watch that patient die. In addition, these " experimental " treatments, used in life/death situations could also further the knowledge and success of treatment for thousands of others. <>Roni Immortality exists! It's called knowledge! Just because something isn't seen doesn't mean it's not there<> > You've been fortunate . Others not so. People who had insurance and > were taken down by deadly illnesses have been denied treatments that > would have saved their lives, and died because of that. This includes > chldren who were fully covered under their parents policies. These > facts have been all over the news. I'm surprised you haven't seen them. > The only cases I have seen reported involve experimental treatments or ones approved for other conditions (off label) that might or might not work. The " contracts " I have selected with insurance companies explicitly exclude funding experiments for treatments outside the medicare defined mainstream. If examples of deaths of fully covered children denied a contracted treatment ex post facto is all over the news, you should have no problem finding us an example, right? Chuck ------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2011 Report Share Posted January 15, 2011 I agree, I don't think any of them are what I would call bio identical. Of course, I'm not sitting at the head of sales in some manufacturing company. <>Roni Immortality exists! It's called knowledge! Just because something isn't seen doesn't mean it's not there<> > You and Chuck both claim that Synthroid is bio-identical, however how > can you make that claim in the face of this? Incipient ingredients are outside the definition of bio-identical. The issue is restricted to the chemical structure of the hormone. Armour also has incipient ingredients in its mixture. The fact that many reacted badly to the recent change in these extra ingredients does not in any way affect the status of the hormone molecules as bio-identical. Chuck ------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2011 Report Share Posted January 15, 2011 A few minutes ago, my Great Pyrenees " puppy " gave me some therapy by destroying a pair of shoes. Earlier this morning, we found her chewing up a journal I had not yet read. She's approaching 6 months old and 75 pounds. Eats like a horse, well, a meat-eating horse. Chuck Oh Oh! That sounds like it could create some stress! LOL! Barb Re: Re: More Numbers Barb, You wrote: > > ... research has shown that petting a dog lowers > blood pressure. I've seen patients who don't respond positively to > anything light up and open up, when they see a dog in their room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2011 Report Share Posted January 15, 2011 Puppies will be puppies. LOL <>Roni Immortality exists! It's called knowledge! Just because something isn't seen doesn't mean it's not there<> > > ... research has shown that petting a dog lowers > blood pressure. I've seen patients who don't respond positively to > anything light up and open up, when they see a dog in their room. A few minutes ago, my Great Pyrenees " puppy " gave me some therapy by destroying a pair of shoes. Earlier this morning, we found her chewing up a journal I had not yet read. She's approaching 6 months old and 75 pounds. Eats like a horse, well, a meat-eating horse. Chuck ------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2011 Report Share Posted January 15, 2011 Do you have a consistent consequence for him when he does something wrong? Ceaser, the dog whisperer has lots of ideas. You may want to get his bood if you don't already have it. Dogs are like children they learn by our reactions to their actions, and need to have clear indications that something is good or bad. <>Roni Immortality exists! It's called knowledge! Just because something isn't seen doesn't mean it's not there<> > > ... research has shown that petting a dog lowers > blood pressure. I've seen patients who don't respond positively to > anything light up and open up, when they see a dog in their room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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