Guest guest Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 On 2/8/2011 1:05 PM, Roni Molin wrote: > Here's a list of drug recalls. I don't know if it's complete, or how far > back it goes, but it's informative, nevertheless. Again, find one that is not due to unforeseen side effects. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 An individual might get better or well after taking almost anything that doesn't seriously harm or kill you; and the fact is that it could in many cases be the product taken rather than chance or placebo. I've personally had some apparent reactions to medication that I cannot explain. However, the probability that someone else will have the same results I did is exceedingly remote. It would therefor be inconsiderate or foolish for me to recommend it to you. The problem is the above does not apply to homeopathy because there is no active ingredient at all in many of the preparations. If a teaspoon of water/alcohol won't cure you then it is physically impossible for you to be cured by the product. What we can't rule out is chance and placebo; but those results are not from the preparation. Regards, .. .. > Posted by: " Roni Molin " matchermaam@... > <mailto:matchermaam@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Recalls> > matchermaam <matchermaam> > > > Tue Feb 8, 2011 1:42 pm (PST) > > > > I never said that they put out drugs that have no effect. However, > that being said, I and others that I know have taken certain drugs > that have had no effect on us. This is to be expected from anything, > including alternative meds. Our chemistries are not all the same, and > just because a drug works for most of the people, doesn't mean it will > work for all of the people. > > <>Roni Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 Chuck, I didn't make up the list. I just posted it because it showed drugs that have been recalled and I thought it might help someone who still had some of the meds and didn't know they were recalled. Why are you so defensive about the drugs? As far as I'm concerned, I have no way of telling how and whether or not their pretesting of them was done properly with honest people or not. I know some of the companies have been accused of lying in news stories that I've seen, so it's possible that they knew all along that some of these things would cause harm. To some people, money is a very strong influence over their morals and honesty. In theory the system should work, pretest the drugs in trials and then have them peer reviewed. However, that is just a system, and like all systems, it's the people who participate and run them that determine the efficacy, and veracity of the system. <>Roni Immortality exists! It's called knowledge! Just because something isn't seen doesn't mean it's not there<> > I never said that they put out drugs that have no effect. However, that > being said, I and others that I know have taken certain drugs that have > had no effect on us. This is to be expected from anything, including > alternative meds. Our chemistries are not all the same, and just because > a drug works for most of the people, doesn't mean it will work for all > of the people. No, but you both listed drugs that had been recalled. None were recalled because they did not have the tested potency, but because they had side effects. Chuck ------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 , unfortunately you and I have nothing to do with encouraging good medical practices, no matter if they are allopathic or alternative. I and I'm sure you too just want them to be able to do what they're supposed to do without harming the patient. Because of my sensitivities to chemicals, I research every rx I get, and I can't tell you how many of them can (and sometimes do) cause the very thing they are prescribed to stop. Also, many of them state the other conditions they can cause, including things like cancer, heart attack, death. It's a scary world this pharmaceutical industry. If at all possible, I don't take meds and if I have to take something I either take it only when needed and/or at the lowest dose possible. <>Roni Immortality exists! It's called knowledge! Just because something isn't seen doesn't mean it's not there<> From: <res075oh@...> Subject: Re: Recalls hypothyroidism Date: Tuesday, February 8, 2011, 9:09 PM An individual might get better or well after taking almost anything that doesn't seriously harm or kill you; and the fact is that it could in many cases be the product taken rather than chance or placebo. I've personally had some apparent reactions to medication that I cannot explain. However, the probability that someone else will have the same results I did is exceedingly remote. It would therefor be inconsiderate or foolish for me to recommend it to you. The problem is the above does not apply to homeopathy because there is no active ingredient at all in many of the preparations. If a teaspoon of water/alcohol won't cure you then it is physically impossible for you to be cured by the product. What we can't rule out is chance and placebo; but those results are not from the preparation. Regards, .. .. > Posted by: " Roni Molin " matchermaam@... > <mailto:matchermaam@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Recalls> > matchermaam <matchermaam> > > > Tue Feb 8, 2011 1:42 pm (PST) > > > > I never said that they put out drugs that have no effect. However, > that being said, I and others that I know have taken certain drugs > that have had no effect on us. This is to be expected from anything, > including alternative meds. Our chemistries are not all the same, and > just because a drug works for most of the people, doesn't mean it will > work for all of the people. > > <>Roni ------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 , You wrote: > ... The problem is the above does not apply to homeopathy because there is > no active ingredient at all in many of the preparations.... I noticed years ago that many of the tinctures sold as homeopathic remedies were actually mixtures of an ultra dilution with an herbal remedy that DID have active ingredients. That may be the kind of combination that works for Roni. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 Roni, You just stepped into the middle of an ongoing discussion, in which I had just requested an example of a drug recalled for lack of effectiveness rather than side effects. I thought you were trying to contribute such an example, and my point was that drugs recalled for side effects were completely irrelevant to the original point of contention about scientific testing demonstrating effectiveness. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 The original discussion was about the potency and [lack of] effectiveness of homeopathic products, which in most cases is absolute zero; in that no molecules whatsoever remain in the concoction. Then someone mentioned the recall of standard drugs, and implied that there was a similarity. Chuck is simply pointing out that there is no similarity: The mainstream drugs quoted were in fact ALL recalled due to side effects; NOT ONE of them was recalled due to lack of effectiveness or potency. In the first case [homeopathy] you have a product that cannot work as advertised according to the known laws of physics. In the second case you have a product that works as advertised in the appropriate percentage of patients; but it has unintended side effects not known originally. These side effects caused the recall. The first instance is an example of sloppy thinking, lack of knowledge and faulty logic. Chuck's response is the opposite, and is what we should expect from a scientist of his caliber. Regards, .. .. > > Posted by: " Roni Molin " matchermaam@... > <mailto:matchermaam@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Recalls> > matchermaam <matchermaam> > > > Wed Feb 9, 2011 12:14 am (PST) > > > > Chuck, I didn't make up the list. I just posted it because it showed > drugs that have been recalled and I thought it might help someone who > still had some of the meds and didn't know they were recalled. > > Why are you so defensive about the drugs? As far as I'm concerned, I > have no way of telling how and whether or not their pretesting of them > was done properly with honest people or not. I know some of the > companies have been accused of lying in news stories that I've seen, > so it's possible that they knew all along that some of these things > would cause harm. To some people, money is a very strong influence > over their morals and honesty. In theory the system should work, > pretest the drugs in trials and then have them peer reviewed. However, > that is just a system, and like all systems, it's the people who > participate and run them that determine the efficacy, and veracity of > the system. > > <>Roni Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 I take far too darn many medications for my comfort level. I've read and been frightened by many labels. I think your caution is the best choice. Regards, > Posted by: " Roni Molin " matchermaam@... > <mailto:matchermaam@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Recalls> > matchermaam <matchermaam> > > > Wed Feb 9, 2011 12:24 am (PST) > > > > , unfortunately > you and I have nothing to do with encouraging good medical practices, > no matter if they are allopathic or alternative. I and I'm sure you > too just want them to be able to > do what they're supposed to do without harming the patient. > > Because of my sensitivities to chemicals, I research every rx I get, > and I can't tell you how many of them can (and sometimes do) cause the > very thing they are prescribed to stop. Also, many of them state the > other conditions they can cause, including things like cancer, heart > attack, death. > It's a scary world this pharmaceutical industry. > > If at all possible, I don't take meds and if I have to take something > I either take it only when needed and/or at the lowest dose possible. > > <>Roni Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 Wow, Chuck, maybe that is the answer to the mystery of that stuff. I'm happy it works but was really puzzled why. You may have hit the nail on the head. <>Roni Immortality exists! It's called knowledge! Just because something isn't seen doesn't mean it's not there<> > ... The problem is the above does not apply to homeopathy because there is > no active ingredient at all in many of the preparations.... I noticed years ago that many of the tinctures sold as homeopathic remedies were actually mixtures of an ultra dilution with an herbal remedy that DID have active ingredients. That may be the kind of combination that works for Roni. Chuck ------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 Sorry, I don't always get the posts in order for some reason. <>Roni Immortality exists! It's called knowledge! Just because something isn't seen doesn't mean it's not there<> From: ChuckB <gumboyaya@...> Subject: Re: Recalls hypothyroidism Date: Wednesday, February 9, 2011, 8:17 AM Roni, You just stepped into the middle of an ongoing discussion, in which I had just requested an example of a drug recalled for lack of effectiveness rather than side effects. I thought you were trying to contribute such an example, and my point was that drugs recalled for side effects were completely irrelevant to the original point of contention about scientific testing demonstrating effectiveness. Chuck ------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 you state that certain products can't work because of known science. Then you state that recalled drugs were recalled because of unknown side effects. Known science has changed dramatically over time, and if it was perfect it would have known about the side effects. Actually, when I get a rx, I research it, and there are tons of side effects listed. I think there are many doctors who don't even know the side effects of the drugs they hand out, and many patients who don't bother to find out what they might be, which they can readily find out from the patient handouts. Nothing is carved in stone one way or the other, and more and more very well respected and experienced mainstream doctors are using alternative medicine now. <>Roni Immortality exists! It's called knowledge! Just because something isn't seen doesn't mean it's not there<> From: <res075oh@...> Subject: Re: Recalls hypothyroidism Date: Wednesday, February 9, 2011, 11:14 AM The original discussion was about the potency and [lack of] effectiveness of homeopathic products, which in most cases is absolute zero; in that no molecules whatsoever remain in the concoction. Then someone mentioned the recall of standard drugs, and implied that there was a similarity. Chuck is simply pointing out that there is no similarity: The mainstream drugs quoted were in fact ALL recalled due to side effects; NOT ONE of them was recalled due to lack of effectiveness or potency. In the first case [homeopathy] you have a product that cannot work as advertised according to the known laws of physics. In the second case you have a product that works as advertised in the appropriate percentage of patients; but it has unintended side effects not known originally. These side effects caused the recall. The first instance is an example of sloppy thinking, lack of knowledge and faulty logic. Chuck's response is the opposite, and is what we should expect from a scientist of his caliber. Regards, .. .. > > Posted by: " Roni Molin " matchermaam@... > <mailto:matchermaam@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Recalls> > matchermaam <matchermaam> > > > Wed Feb 9, 2011 12:14 am (PST) > > > > Chuck, I didn't make up the list. I just posted it because it showed > drugs that have been recalled and I thought it might help someone who > still had some of the meds and didn't know they were recalled. > > Why are you so defensive about the drugs? As far as I'm concerned, I > have no way of telling how and whether or not their pretesting of them > was done properly with honest people or not. I know some of the > companies have been accused of lying in news stories that I've seen, > so it's possible that they knew all along that some of these things > would cause harm. To some people, money is a very strong influence > over their morals and honesty. In theory the system should work, > pretest the drugs in trials and then have them peer reviewed. However, > that is just a system, and like all systems, it's the people who > participate and run them that determine the efficacy, and veracity of > the system. > > <>Roni ------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 I hope you have checked the site where they can check for medicne interactions. It's an important thing to do when you are taking multiple medicines because they can combine and create other compounds that can cause big trouble. <>Roni Immortality exists! It's called knowledge! Just because something isn't seen doesn't mean it's not there<> From: <res075oh@...> Subject: Re: Recalls hypothyroidism Date: Wednesday, February 9, 2011, 11:17 AM I take far too darn many medications for my comfort level. I've read and been frightened by many labels. I think your caution is the best choice. Regards, > Posted by: " Roni Molin " matchermaam@... > <mailto:matchermaam@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Recalls> > matchermaam <matchermaam> > > > Wed Feb 9, 2011 12:24 am (PST) > > > > , unfortunately > you and I have nothing to do with encouraging good medical practices, > no matter if they are allopathic or alternative. I and I'm sure you > too just want them to be able to > do what they're supposed to do without harming the patient. > > Because of my sensitivities to chemicals, I research every rx I get, > and I can't tell you how many of them can (and sometimes do) cause the > very thing they are prescribed to stop. Also, many of them state the > other conditions they can cause, including things like cancer, heart > attack, death. > It's a scary world this pharmaceutical industry. > > If at all possible, I don't take meds and if I have to take something > I either take it only when needed and/or at the lowest dose possible. > > <>Roni ------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 Yes, this is why I was curious about what a homeopath was giving ; it could be a mixture of some very potent substances and not just a homeopathic dilution. The mention of a Chinese doctor giving a (paraphrasing) brown packet that produced good thyroid reaction could well be a packet containing dessicated thyroid gland, not some ancient herbal blend. > > ... The problem is the above does not apply to homeopathy because there is > > no active ingredient at all in many of the preparations.... > > I noticed years ago that many of the tinctures sold as homeopathic > remedies were actually mixtures of an ultra dilution with an herbal > remedy that DID have active ingredients. That may be the kind of > combination that works for Roni. > > Chuck > > > ------------------------------------ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 I asked for the exact things she was taking too, but didn't get a full answer. <>Roni Immortality exists! It's called knowledge! Just because something isn't seen doesn't mean it's not there<> From: flatwoodfarms <marlum@...> Subject: Re: Recalls hypothyroidism Date: Thursday, February 10, 2011, 10:21 AM Yes, this is why I was curious about what a homeopath was giving ; it could be a mixture of some very potent substances and not just a homeopathic dilution. The mention of a Chinese doctor giving a (paraphrasing) brown packet that produced good thyroid reaction could well be a packet containing dessicated thyroid gland, not some ancient herbal blend. > > ... The problem is the above does not apply to homeopathy because there is > > no active ingredient at all in many of the preparations.... > > I noticed years ago that many of the tinctures sold as homeopathic > remedies were actually mixtures of an ultra dilution with an herbal > remedy that DID have active ingredients. That may be the kind of > combination that works for Roni. > > Chuck > > > ------------------------------------ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 Hi there ! If a drug has been recalled because it's harmful side effects such drug's possible " effectiveness " is irrelevant. It is the same as shooting a fly off someones forehead with a gun... can we say this is effective??? NO. The purpose of a medicament is to cure or alleviate an illness or condition, if said medicament causes harm and consequently can not be taken, then what is the point? It's purpose has not fulfilled it's purpose, it has failed. Many people have ended up with worse problems after taking certain medicaments, some have even died. I certainly question what is being referred to here as " effectiveness " Also this original discussion was between you and I and it was not about the potency of homeopathic products... I'd like to remind you it was about the trustworthiness of " tested " drugs versus " alternative " medicine. The fact remains that many forms of medicine that don't fallow the standard protocol are as effective as any. And many who do are worthless. Just because we don't understand how something works does not means that it does not work. Just because you can't find how homeopathy works does not means that it is does not work. How you ever heard about Quantum Physics and Sub Molecular Biology? Everything you mention as to why Homeopathy does not work these two sciences can explain as to why it can. Is this a forum to discuss ways of dealing with Hypothyroidism or a forum to insist that one is right? Being right is highly overrated. Being healthy is better. For what I read here, most people are overly medicated and their conditions are simply not improving. They don't get better, they only develop something else. Wouldn't it be helpful to AT LEAST consider the alternatives? I sincerely hope that some can move on into better health and not be stuck in a medical rut. Be well. > > > The original discussion was about the potency and [lack of] > effectiveness of homeopathic products, which in most cases is absolute > zero; in that no molecules whatsoever remain in the concoction. Then > someone mentioned the recall of standard drugs, and implied that there > was a similarity. Chuck is simply pointing out that there is no > similarity: The mainstream drugs quoted were in fact ALL recalled due > to side effects; NOT ONE of them was recalled due to lack of > effectiveness or potency. > > In the first case [homeopathy] you have a product that cannot work as > advertised according to the known laws of physics. In the second case > you have a product that works as advertised in the appropriate > percentage of patients; but it has unintended side effects not known > originally. These side effects caused the recall. > > The first instance is an example of sloppy thinking, lack of knowledge > and faulty logic. Chuck's response is the opposite, and is what we > should expect from a scientist of his caliber. > > Regards, > > . > . > > > > > Posted by: " Roni Molin " matchermaam@... > > <mailto:matchermaam@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Recalls> > > matchermaam <matchermaam> > > > > > > Wed Feb 9, 2011 12:14 am (PST) > > > > > > > > Chuck, I didn't make up the list. I just posted it because it showed > > drugs that have been recalled and I thought it might help someone who > > still had some of the meds and didn't know they were recalled. > > > > Why are you so defensive about the drugs? As far as I'm concerned, I > > have no way of telling how and whether or not their pretesting of them > > was done properly with honest people or not. I know some of the > > companies have been accused of lying in news stories that I've seen, > > so it's possible that they knew all along that some of these things > > would cause harm. To some people, money is a very strong influence > > over their morals and honesty. In theory the system should work, > > pretest the drugs in trials and then have them peer reviewed. However, > > that is just a system, and like all systems, it's the people who > > participate and run them that determine the efficacy, and veracity of > > the system. > > > > <>Roni > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 But then it's not really the homeopathic remedy that's doing the healing, but the additional ingredients. In such a case it would IMHO make more sense to forego the homeopathic remedy and just take the additional ingredients. Thanks for letting me know there are actually such dual concoctions; I didn't know that. Regards, .. .. > Posted by: " ChuckB " gumboyaya@... > <mailto:gumboyaya@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Recalls> > gumbo482001 <gumbo482001> > > > Wed Feb 9, 2011 7:42 am (PST) > > > > , > > You wrote: > > ... The problem is the above does not apply to homeopathy because > there is > > no active ingredient at all in many of the preparations. > ... > > I noticed years ago that many of the tinctures sold as homeopathic > remedies were actually mixtures of an ultra dilution with an herbal > remedy that DID have active ingredients. That may be the kind of > combination that works for Roni. > > Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 The fact that science can change and has changed in the light of new evidence is one of its crowning glories IMHO. Science has no perfect book in which all of the eternal truths are written; it's an on-going proposition. No one ever claimed that science is perfect. Science is after all done by humans. Perhaps nothing is written in stone but such presumed facts as the one that you cannot fly above the surface of the earth without mechanical assistance is written in ironwood...at least. Regards, .. .. > > Posted by: " Roni Molin " matchermaam@... > <mailto:matchermaam@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Recalls> > matchermaam <matchermaam> > > > Wed Feb 9, 2011 5:00 pm (PST) > > > > you state that certain products can't work because of known science. > > Then you state that recalled drugs were recalled because of unknown side > effects. > > Known science has changed dramatically over time, and if it was > perfect it > would have known about the side effects. Actually, when I get a rx, I > research > it, and there are tons of side effects listed. I think there are many > doctors who > don't even know the side effects of the drugs they hand out, and many > patients > who don't bother to find out what they might be, which they can > readily find out > from the patient handouts. > > Nothing is carved in stone one way or the other, and more and more > very well > respected and experienced mainstre > am doctors are using alternative medicine > now. > > > <>Roni Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 Maybe we just haven't learned how to do that yet. Don't forget most of our brains are not being used currently. When we get to the point where a whole lot more of them are used, who knows what we'll be able to do? <>Roni Immortality exists! It's called knowledge! Just because something isn't seen doesn't mean it's not there<> From: <res075oh@...> Subject: Re: Recalls hypothyroidism Date: Thursday, February 10, 2011, 3:05 PM The fact that science can change and has changed in the light of new evidence is one of its crowning glories IMHO. Science has no perfect book in which all of the eternal truths are written; it's an on-going proposition. No one ever claimed that science is perfect. Science is after all done by humans. Perhaps nothing is written in stone but such presumed facts as the one that you cannot fly above the surface of the earth without mechanical assistance is written in ironwood...at least. Regards, .. .. > > Posted by: " Roni Molin " matchermaam@... > <mailto:matchermaam@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Recalls> > matchermaam <matchermaam> > > > Wed Feb 9, 2011 5:00 pm (PST) > > > > you state that certain products can't work because of known science. > > Then you state that recalled drugs were recalled because of unknown side > effects. > > Known science has changed dramatically over time, and if it was > perfect it > would have known about the side effects. Actually, when I get a rx, I > research > it, and there are tons of side effects listed. I think there are many > doctors who > don't even know the side effects of the drugs they hand out, and many > patients > who don't bother to find out what they might be, which they can > readily find out > from the patient handouts. > > Nothing is carved in stone one way or the other, and more and more > very well > respected and experienced mainstre > am doctors are using alternative medicine > now. > > > <>Roni ------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 My goodness this is almost funny! You write: " what a homeopath was giving ; it could be a mixture of some very potent substances and not just a homeopathic dilution. The mention of a Chinese doctor giving a (paraphrasing) brown packet that produced good thyroid reaction could well be a packet containing dessicatedthyroid gland, not some ancient herbal blend " . This sounds like something out of a comedy routine. Lets see... so my Homeopath must be a medical genius (and a financial idiot) !!! He has this very " potent stuff " to sell me really cheap that can do for me what all the other doctors including the famous expensive Endocrinologist could not do!!! And to top it all this genius give away the cure really cheap but. Right!? OH!!!... and the Chinese Herbalist, prefers to sell you a very inexpensive mysterious " brown packet " containing very expensive dessicated thyroid. Wow, another medical genius/financial idiot this Chinese doctor. How did he get this amazing technology to produce such product which pharmaceuticals produce under such amazing controls etc for a lot more money. Wow another saint who gives away the cure for next to nothing. The things these quacks will do to cure you and do a better job than your previous doctors did for a lot more money and less results!!! If I were you I would run to these quacks before the deal is over. I feel really sad for you. Be well. . > > > ... The problem is the above does not apply to homeopathy because there is > > > no active ingredient at all in many of the preparations.... > > > > I noticed years ago that many of the tinctures sold as homeopathic > > remedies were actually mixtures of an ultra dilution with an herbal > > remedy that DID have active ingredients. That may be the kind of > > combination that works for Roni. > > > > Chuck > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 I think it's misleading to refer to combinations as homeopathic medications. If you have essentially Armour added to a homeopathic remedy then the response should be basically identical to Armour alone. The homeopathic part usually has just the inert ingredients alone, with not a single molecule of the supposed active ingredient so it shouldn't help or harm unless you respond to the inert ingredients. Luck, .. .. > Posted by: " flatwoodfarms " marlum@... > <mailto:marlum@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Recalls> > flatwoodfarms <flatwoodfarms> > > > Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:21 am (PST) > > > > Yes, this is why I was curious about what a homeopath was giving > ; it could be a mixture of some very potent substances and not > just a homeopathic dilution. The mention of a Chinese doctor giving a > (paraphrasing) brown packet that produced good thyroid reaction could > well be a packet containing dessicated thyroid gland, not some ancient > herbal blend. > > > > > ... The problem is the above does not apply to homeopathy because > there is > > > no active ingredient at all in many of the preparations.... > > > > I noticed years ago that many of the tinctures sold as homeopathic > > remedies were actually mixtures of an ultra dilution with an herbal > > remedy that DID have active ingredients. That may be the kind of > > combination that works for Roni. > > > > Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 Hey I could call my Homeopath and ask what where the components in the mixture he gave me. I'm sure he'll be glad to tell me. Whenever I've asked he's told me. But since I don't self medicate I no longer ask, I trust him (since he's proven to be right). My question to you is? Why do you want to know? Are you going to be open minded and look into it? According to you, what does it mater, there is nothing in that mixture anyway. I'm disappointed in you. You seem to be only interested in being argumentative and prove you are right, you know best, blah, blah, blah. Being argumentative is not helpful. If all you want to do is discredit something that could potentially be beneficial to you then go ahead. I did give you a substantial answer, which I repeat, it does not specifically matter what I took, in Homeopathy every patient gets a different treatment even if it is for the same condition. The condition does not get treated the patient does. If you want to seriously learn about Homeopathy consult a Homeopath. Asking irrelevant questions is nothing more than another much used exercise in argumentativeness. If you are not interested in finding an alternative to a problem that so far you have not found a solution to, well... Still hopping you will be well. > > > ... The problem is the above does not apply to homeopathy because there is > > > no active ingredient at all in many of the preparations.... > > > > I noticed years ago that many of the tinctures sold as homeopathic > > remedies were actually mixtures of an ultra dilution with an herbal > > remedy that DID have active ingredients. That may be the kind of > > combination that works for Roni. > > > > Chuck > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 Hi, . Please see comments below. .. .. > > Posted by: " maria p " khusha8@... > <mailto:khusha8@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Recalls> khusha8 > <khusha8> > > > Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:09 pm (PST) > > > > > Hi there ! > > If a drug has been recalled because it's harmful side effects such > drug's possible " effectiveness " is irrelevant. It is the same as > shooting a fly off someones forehead with a gun... can we say this is > effective??? NO. > > The purpose of a medicament is to cure or alleviate an illness or > condition, if said medicament causes harm and consequently can not be > taken, then what is the point? It's purpose has not fulfilled it's > purpose, it has failed. Many people have ended up with worse problems > after taking certain medicaments, some have even died. I certainly > question what is being referred to here as " effectiveness " .. .. Effectiveness is measured in the controlled studies prior to the approval of a drug. If Viagra is achieves its intended purpose in treating the target condition then it is effective. If it gives such a horrible headache every time it is taken then it is not really a viable solution; but that does not take away the fact that it is effective FOR THE TARGET CONDITION. To suggest otherwise is just a play on semantics. To suggest that killing flies with a gun would ever be considered is extremely foolish. Possible harm [side effects] are eliminated as far as possible up front. .. .. > > Also this original discussion was between you and I and it was not > about the potency of homeopathic products... I'd like to remind you it > was about the trustworthiness of " tested " drugs versus " alternative " > medicine. .. .. I don't remember it that way; but could be I guess. .. .. > > The fact remains that many forms of medicine that don't fallow the > standard protocol are as effective as any. .. .. If you're satisfied with benefits no greater than chance or placebo then that is correct. But from time to time alternative medications DO get properly tested. Few show any great benefit, if any at all. > And many who do are worthless. .. .. Any product prescribed for a condition other than that for which it is actually effective is likely to be worthless; or perhaps even harmful. If you're suggesting that there are a vast number of approved medications that are ineffective [lacking in benefit] when taken for the target condition I will suggest you cannot produce a list of that vast number. Some medications are after all intended to prolong life or quality of life rather than to heal. And example of poor choice of prescription is when an antibiotic is given for a [viral] cold. .. .. > > Just because we don't understand how something works does not means > that it does not work. Just because you can't find how homeopathy > works does not means that it is does not work. .. .. The proponents of homeopathy describe " clearly " how it works. And their descriptions always contain bogus, none-existing effects which contradict well established physical laws. Therefore the probability that it will work becomes vanishingly small. It's rather like going to the market and buying a bag of apples to make apple pies and then getting home and finding the bag torn and the apples all gone. You aren't likely to get a tasty apple pie from the bag; but you are as likely to get a tasty apple pie from the empty bag as you are to get effective treatment from a homeopathic concoction from which every molecule of the active ingredient has been removed. Either case depends upon magic. .. .. > > How you ever heard about Quantum Physics and Sub Molecular Biology? > Everything you mention as to why Homeopathy does not work these two > sciences can explain as to why it can. .. .. I just returned SPEAKABLE AND UNSPEAKABLE IN QUANTUM MECHANICS by S. Bell to the library. ly much/most of it was beyond me; I'm totally lacking in advanced math [beyond college calculus, anyway]. Strangely enough I did find one of his articles that it appears to me is invalid. I say that with some not so small level of hesitation, because he is widely recognized as one of the best minds that science has ever had. So the probability is that I am wrong rather than that he is; but it really appears to me that he goofed on not one but two points. He was, however, dealing more with relativity than quantum mechanics in the example. Much more readable is THE AGE OF ENTANGLEMENT by Louisa Gilder, which I have beside my computer as I type. While that young lady is not a PhD she is well educated in physics and explains many of the confusing elements of quantum mechanics with a clarity and accuracy that you do not always find even from PhD's in the field. I highly recommend it to anyone with an interest in the most confusing parts of quantum mechanics; although it is actually more of a history of the study of entanglement than a textbook. So I do have some acquaintance with the subject [quantum mechanics]; sufficient that I will challenge your statement as being categorically false. There is not the slightest support for your claim in any of the dozens of books I have read on the subject. I will further suggest that it is highly unlikely that you can post a link to anything in sub-molecular biology that supports homeopathic claims. .. .. > > Is this a forum to discuss ways of dealing with Hypothyroidism or a > forum to insist that one is right? Being right is highly overrated. > Being healthy is better. .. .. When one advises others in matters of health then it is incumbent upon that person to be correct [right, if you prefer]. Otherwise one is likely to cause more harm than help. When I see advice given that contradicts well established physical laws it is clear that the chance of that advice being helpful is vanishingly small. I take it as helpful to others for me to provide the knowledge of the probability of lack of benefit to everyone so that they may devote their time and money toward methods that have a reasonable chance of success. Your chance of getting healthy on a quack product is at best equal to chance or placebo; and the results could be far worse. Not too long ago someone promoted a method [cancer related] here and a few minutes investigating it showed that it was a quack remedy. Further, the doctor who promoted it was convicted of manslaughter [and malpractice] when a patient died as the direct result of the quack procedure; and he lost his medical license. Of course, you don't have to worry about that with homeopathy: There is nothing in it that can harm [or help] you. .. .. > > For what I read here, most people are overly medicated and their > conditions are simply not improving. They don't get better, they only > develop something else. Wouldn't it be helpful to AT LEAST consider > the alternatives? .. .. It's very reasonable to consider all alternatives. You can stop considering any alternative [and go on the the next one] once you find it contradicts well established laws of physics unless you're willing to settle for billion to one chances. .. .. > > I sincerely hope that some can move on into better health and not be > stuck in a medical rut. .. .. I want to provide whatever help I can to prevent anyone from being stuck in a dead-end rut like homeopathy. It is, of course, your choice. Luck, .. .. > > Be well. > > > > > > > > The original discussion was about the potency and [lack of] > > effectiveness of homeopathic products, which in most cases is absolute > > zero; in that no molecules whatsoever remain in the concoction. Then > > someone mentioned the recall of standard drugs, and implied that there > > was a similarity. Chuck is simply pointing out that there is no > > similarity: The mainstream drugs quoted were in fact ALL recalled due > > to side effects; NOT ONE of them was recalled due to lack of > > effectiveness or potency. > > > > In the first case [homeopathy] you have a product that cannot work as > > advertised according to the known laws of physics. In the second case > > you have a product that works as advertised in the appropriate > > percentage of patients; but it has unintended side effects not known > > originally. These side effects caused the recall. > > > > The first instance is an example of sloppy thinking, lack of knowledge > > and faulty logic. Chuck's response is the opposite, and is what we > > should expect from a scientist of his caliber. > > > > Regards, > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 I did give you a substantial answer, which I repeat: it does not specifically matter what I took, in Homeopathy every patient gets a different treatment even if it is for the same illness. The illness does not get treated the patient does. The substances I was given changed over the course of four months as my condition changed. If you were seriously interested in learning you could look up what sort of substances Homeopath prescribe for certain patient's conditions. I could call my Homeopath and ask, but given the attitude it would be a waste of my time and his. I don't ask him what are the substances he gives me, I'm not interested in self medicating or being a homeopath myself. The fact that I no longer have Hypothyroidism is enough for me to trust him on this. If you are not interested in finding an alternative to a problem that so far you have not found a solution to, well... Still hopping you will be well. Good luck. . > > > ... The problem is the above does not apply to homeopathy because there is > > > no active ingredient at all in many of the preparations.... > > > > I noticed years ago that many of the tinctures sold as homeopathic > > remedies were actually mixtures of an ultra dilution with an herbal > > remedy that DID have active ingredients. That may be the kind of > > combination that works for Roni. > > > > Chuck > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 We know the approximate quantity of energy it takes to support the average human using the most efficient wings possible. The energy that the brain consumes is an exceedingly small portion of that number. Multiplying the output of the brain a hundred or thousand times isn't going to make any difference in the bottom line. We cannot rule it out completely because we might find some completely new physics; however we are unlikely to find such a physics if it violates the most well established laws of what we have now. Regards, .. .. > Posted by: " Roni Molin " matchermaam@... > <mailto:matchermaam@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Recalls> > matchermaam <matchermaam> > > > Thu Feb 10, 2011 4:30 pm (PST) > > > > Maybe we just haven't learned how to do that yet. Don't forget most of > our brains are not being used currently. When we get to the point > where a whole lot more of them are used, who knows what we'll be able > to do? > > <>Roni > Immortality exists! > It's called knowledge! > > Just because something isn't seen > doesn't mean it's not there<> > > > > From: <res075oh@... <mailto:res075oh%40verizon.net>> > Subject: Re: Recalls > hypothyroidism > <mailto:hypothyroidism%40> > Date: Thursday, February 10, 2011, 3:05 PM > > The fact that science can change and has changed in the light of new > evidence is one of its crowning glories IMHO. Science has no perfect > book in which all of the eternal truths are written; it's an on-going > proposition. > > No one ever claimed that science is perfect. Science is after all done > by humans. > > Perhaps nothing is written in stone but such presumed facts as the one > that you cannot fly above the surface of the earth without mechanical > assistance is written in ironwood...at least. > > Regards, > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2011 Report Share Posted February 12, 2011 I think you may be mixing me up with someone else. I asked because I was interested because I have hypothyroid too and if something better can be obtained and make me feel better, of course I have an open mind. If you had been reading my posts you would have realized that. On your behalf though, sometimes the way posts are trimmed it could look like I wrote something that someone else wrote. I've seen that myself. I'm not against you or your beliefs. <>Roni Immortality exists! It's called knowledge! Just because something isn't seen doesn't mean it's not there<> From: maria p <khusha8@...> Subject: Re: Recalls hypothyroidism Date: Friday, February 11, 2011, 8:56 AM Hey I could call my Homeopath and ask what where the components in the mixture he gave me. I'm sure he'll be glad to tell me. Whenever I've asked he's told me. But since I don't self medicate I no longer ask, I trust him (since he's proven to be right). My question to you is? Why do you want to know? Are you going to be open minded and look into it? According to you, what does it mater, there is nothing in that mixture anyway. I'm disappointed in you. You seem to be only interested in being argumentative and prove you are right, you know best, blah, blah, blah. Being argumentative is not helpful. If all you want to do is discredit something that could potentially be beneficial to you then go ahead. I did give you a substantial answer, which I repeat, it does not specifically matter what I took, in Homeopathy every patient gets a different treatment even if it is for the same condition. The condition does not get treated the patient does. If you want to seriously learn about Homeopathy consult a Homeopath. Asking irrelevant questions is nothing more than another much used exercise in argumentativeness. If you are not interested in finding an alternative to a problem that so far you have not found a solution to, well... Still hopping you will be well. > > > ... The problem is the above does not apply to homeopathy because there is > > > no active ingredient at all in many of the preparations.... > > > > I noticed years ago that many of the tinctures sold as homeopathic > > remedies were actually mixtures of an ultra dilution with an herbal > > remedy that DID have active ingredients. That may be the kind of > > combination that works for Roni. > > > > Chuck > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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