Patty

[Guest guest]

Hi Patty

Thank you for sending them to Dr. Kolb.

____________________________________________________ IncrediMail - Email has finally evolved - Click Here

[Guest guest]

,

You may see some good in many plastic surgeons, but I find it extremely difficult to share your view. It is nice that they repair cleft palates, burn victims, accident victims, and all of those unfortunate souls who truly need the help of a plastic surgeon in their time of desperate need. My own son needed the services of a plastic surgeon when he got bit in the face by a dog when he was 4 years old and it ripped his flesh by the eye and mouth in a jagged manner. My son has scars that will be life long from this event, and I appreciate the services of the plastic surgeon, even though the results didn't turn out as good as we had hoped for.

But, after my personal experience with several other plastic surgeons, I can't help but feel distaste for most of them. Rarely have I found a plastic surgeon who acknowledges the fact that women get sick from implants. Rarely have I found them to be full of compassion and love for those harmed. Rarely have they been anything other than businessmen in white coats, making a sales pitch for a product that they can't wait to sell. In Washington DC they were insulting, sarcastic and rude to the women there who were sick, and made fun of them. If I were to generalize the field of plastic surgery, (which , many people are prone to making generalizations about groups of people, rightly or wrongly, it happens) my comments would not be filled with reverence and awe. Yes, there may be a few out there that are truly good at helping victims, and I do respect those. I used to respect my explanting surgeon, because he did missions to Latin America, and I thought it was out of Christian love and compassion. How disheartening to hear from others who have seen him that he is a waste of time, still puts in implants, won't admit the implants can cause illness, and other negative attributes that don't fit in with the picture I had of him. I agree it is wrong to stereotype people, but the facts seem to point out that most plastic surgeons are only in it for the money. If their practices were mostly about healing victims, I would have a totally different view, but the truth is that most plastic surgeons are about charging large amounts of money to do things like lipsuction and breast augmentation, botox injections and face lifts, things which have no biologically necessary requirement for healthy life. And they advertise this stuff relentlessy! When we start realizing that some of the things plastic surgeons do actually cause harm, then that's where I get angry. That is just plain wrong, and yet they defend their practices with extreme vigor and aggression.

Here in Las Vegas in our Yellow Pages, we have pages and pages of ads for plastic surgery. Page after full size page of them, and as a business owner, I know how expensive Yellow Page advertising is. For those who don't have a clue, let me give you an idea. For our business, we purchase a tiny box ad, about 1 and a half inches by 2 inches. For that ad, we pay over $18,000 a year. I can't imagine how much a full page size ad costs. I know I couldn't afford it.

In the same way, I wouldn't want other people to say that all sick implant women are crazy and just trying to get money out of the manufacturer's. I know that is not the truth, and I know that is wrong to stereotype us that way. But who started that? It was a defense by the manufacturer's and plastic surgeons! For some reason, it is always the underdog that is the victim, but most often representative of the truth. Yes, so there are good plastic surgeons out there that are self-sacrificing, compassionate, giving, kind, not in it for the money...they are the true heroes of plastic surgery. Too bad there aren't more of them. And here we are, the victims of breast implants. Self-sacrificing, compassionate to those hurting like us, giving of our time for their benefit and not ours, not in it for the money, (what money?), kind and good hearted. I guess we are destined to be the underdogs.

I agree that we should be respectful of one another and not vent anger indiscriminately, but I don't think what Dimonds said was indiscriminate venting. It was directed at the very people who caused this whole situation to become a tragedy to begin with. If more of them were listening to us, then maybe there would be hope, but what she said is true. It really is just all about money.

Patty

----- Original Message -----

From: Dr.Kolb

Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 6:32 PM

Subject: RE: Patty

I think we should be respectful of one another and not vent angerindiscriminately as so often has been the case. I think that diamond'sstatement that all plastic surgeons are a certain way is as ludicrous asall sick breast implant women are all a certain way. Please try tounderstand that a statement correcting a generalization is notvictimizing anyone. It is time to be responsible rather than playingthe victim. Diamonds had the choice to acknowledge the correction butchose instead to leave because she was "not supported" in her role as avictim. .

[Guest guest]

Okay, Dr. Kolb. You tell me who is responsible for the situation we are in right now regarding breast implants. I already know the manufacturer's are to blame. But they didn't put them in, and they weren't doctors. Whose fault is this?

----- Original Message -----

From: Dr.Kolb

Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2003 8:12 PM

Subject: RE: Patty

Patty: How does it serve the group to bash all plastic surgeons? If energy follows thought, might this not set the women up for only unpleasant experiences with the plastic surgeons in their community? I know many people who believe that all doctors are bad and sure enough, they have one disaster after another whenever they encounter the medical establishment. I do not have this belief system, and I have had many good experiences as a patient in the military. I was in the CCU twice with life threatening problems. I think it would be wise to avoid such extreme beliefs about any group of people especially doctors who may someday save the life or limb of you or one of your children. .

[Guest guest]

Oh yeah, right, I am sure she read it . I am sure all of us read all of those medical journals all the time to keep up on this stuff. Darn, my subscription expired!

I thought YOU were here to help us with that! Aren't you here to inform us, help us, encourage us, support us? With compassion and understanding? What are you here for?

I hate to be upset this early in the morning, and I really don't want to get into any arguments with you. But you know what? To be quite frank, I am just getting a little bit tired of this crap. I hate having to go toe to toe with you . You always have to be right. You always have to make sure our opinions fall in line with yours. You are sarcastic and edgy. I think I've about gotten to the end of my rope with this. Maybe you should have a Dr. Kolb support group of your own?

, if you want to be here to help us then do so. You talk about positive energy and all that other good stuff, but where is yours? Yeah, it is nice to have a doctor on the group to help us with our questions. But does that mean I have to have your opinions shoved down my throat, too? I have my own opinions and I am entitled to them, and if you don't like it, do I have to hear about it? You don't seem to be able to identify with us here. I think I can speak for most of the others here when I say we were sick, and we don't respect our plastic surgeons anymore, at least the ones who put them in. As Gloria Bywalec stated in her book "Betrayed", he plastic surgeon became a traitor. Look at the title to her book! Betrayed! , whether you like it or not, some people are not going to feel good about plastic surgeons anymore. Period. You can spout off all you want about the wisdom of avoiding extreme beliefs about people, but God gave us certain emotions, and he is not surprised by any of them. Some of them may not be right, but I think our feelings of betrayal at the hands of those we once trusted is expected. I know I felt it. Even your protocol states that there is so much anger over this. C'mon! Do you really expect us to feel warm and fuzzy about what some other plastic surgeons do when we are still dealing with our own anger about our own experience? Get real. And give us some slack. Nobody is perfect. Not me, not you, not anyone.

My goal was to get better. My next goal was to help others. I don't want to hear about putting implants in women and how some are safer than others, and I KNOW you have advised some women that they can get their implants replaced and put back in, EVEN AFTER THEY WERE ILL. You may find nothing wrong with that , but I DO. I know you do alot of good and are trying to help those of us who are victims, but to me it looks like you are riding the fence. Like I said, I don't know if you identify with us here. Don't all (there's one of those nasty words, be careful!) doctors take an oath to "do no harm"? By putting implants back in a woman who was sick from them, isn't that knowingly doing harm?

This group was about healing from our experiences with implants, preferably using holistic healing and alternative medicine. I appreciate the fact that you are a holistic doctor. (Although I seriously question how you can continue to put in breast implants, since the idea of breast implants inside of a body is totally contrary to the fundamental beliefs of natural health. Seems odd to me.) I really don't want anyone to leave, but at the same time, I am sick to death of the fact that every time we have a problem on this group, you are right there at the center of it.

Patty

----- Original Message -----

From: Dr.Kolb

Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 6:29 AM

Subject: RE: Re: Patty

: Did you read the article in the Plastic and ReconstructiveSurgery Journal last month on the problems with textured implants? Doyou know what is going on in actuality or do you rely on your opinions?.-----Original Message-----From: naturalbeauty38 [mailto:naturalbeauty38@...] Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 6:12 AM Subject: Re: PattyI have been working in the medical field for many years, in a big teaching university in California and also here in the best hospital in the state of Idaho and I can quite honestly state that most all Dr's do not believe in implants causing illness, especially saline. For most of us that have been sickened by these devices it is hard to feel compassion toward a field of professionals that have treated us like crap. You cannot realistically expect us to feel much respect toward these Dr's and you can post here as much as you want on this subject but it won't change our minds. Why don't we just move off this subject. As you can see this group is going down hill because of the bickering and it really is sad because I think that most of us, and myself imparticular have been trying to stay away from sensitive subjects and remain focused on support and trying to help women. Bottom line of this group once again is supporting sick women, not plastic surgeons.Sorry.

[Guest guest]

Ah yes, but don't forget that we also had a whole slew of people leave this group in protest of your presence here! Remember that? If you've forgotten, Saline Info on was formed because I had allowed you to remain on this one, and defended your presence here. It just seems that you are destined be surrounded by controversy, Dr. Kolb. I can't help that. I guess you gotta do what you gotta do. Just keep telling the truth.

Patty

----- Original Message -----

From: Dr.Kolb

Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2003 8:03 PM

Subject: RE: Patty

Patty: Please reread diamond’s post. She was making a blanket statement regarding “all” plastic surgeons. Neither you nor diamond know as many plastic surgeons as I do and while many are motivated by money, the majority are not. I agree that many are closed minded regarding implants because of the excellent PR job done by the breast implant manufacturers but that does not make them evil people. Over half of the “plastic surgeons” that advertise in the yellow pages are not plastic surgeons at all so do not judge plastic surgeons by these ads. Whenever I am blasted on the saline site know that many of the support group leaders privately write to me to apologize for the behavior of the women on the board. They know what I do for the women to help this cause and at what price. Today I spend over an hour talking with several plastic surgeons around the country helping them to prepare for media questions re saline implant problems and educating them regarding the problem. Same drill last week. If members of the board choose to malign plastic surgeons with blanket statements, I will continue to correct them. The women need and will continue to need the services of plastic surgeons in order to get explanted and to correct deformities. I for one will continue to educate both the women and the plastic surgeons regarding this issue and I will not judge either group. .

[Guest guest]

I thought I already addressed that when I spoke of my son when he got bit in the face by a dog?

----- Original Message -----

From: Dr.Kolb

Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2003 8:12 PM

Subject: RE: Patty

Patty: How does it serve the group to bash all plastic surgeons? If energy follows thought, might this not set the women up for only unpleasant experiences with the plastic surgeons in their community? I know many people who believe that all doctors are bad and sure enough, they have one disaster after another whenever they encounter the medical establishment. I do not have this belief system, and I have had many good experiences as a patient in the military. I was in the CCU twice with life threatening problems. I think it would be wise to avoid such extreme beliefs about any group of people especially doctors who may someday save the life or limb of you or one of your children. .

[Guest guest]

Good going Patty, you spoke your mind and your opinion and though

there may be some people on this board that don't agree we do have

the right to question why Dr Kolb is here, if she is not going to be

supportive of us. I hate to say it but the last few posts of hers

have been extremely condescending. I know she thinks that she knows

way more than any of us could ever know, maybe about some things she

does, but the fact is that I don't buy her crap about textured this

and smooth that. all implants carry some risks, and just because one

seems worse than the other, that does not mean that any of them are a

good option. I am sure if I went and got smooth implants I would be

just as sick as I was with textured. I really wish that Dr Kolb could

see how much we have all suffered from implants and just be

sympathetic instead of always trying to be right. We do not have to

agree with her, just because she is a DR does not make her god, it

does not make her opinion sacred either. I don't believe that any

true holistic naturopathic Dr would implant women period! If that is

what Dr Kolb really wants to be, than I have to wonder why she

practices plastic surgery at all, except to take them out, what good

does she do anyone by putting implants in? Sure the women will go

else where, then frankly I say let them. If it was me I would not put

them in at all, she can use her MD to help not hurt. If a patient

insists on implants, I would simply send them elsewhere with a

warning about them. I don't understand how anyone can be so vocal

about implants being dangerous and then continue to put them in with

the excuse that less people will get sick from this type of implant,

there are still some that will get sick period, no matter what type

you use, isn't that just against everything that we stand for? It is

for me, sorry. I hate to be a bitch here, but I can't help it, I have

to voice my opinion, I am truly sorry if anyone feels I am out of

line. It can be justified a million ways if one wants to, the bottom

line, all implants smooth as well, carry long term risks. I for one

would not be able to sleep nights if I was an MD who had taken the

oath to do no harm and then continue after all my knowledge to

implant. IT MAKES NO SENSE

ok done, I won't talk about this again if I am not attacked for this

post.

In , " ~*Patty*~ " <fdp@l...> wrote:

>

> Oh yeah, right, I am sure she read it . I am sure all of us

read all of those medical journals all the time to keep up on this

stuff. Darn, my subscription expired!

>

> I thought YOU were here to help us with that! Aren't you here to

inform us, help us, encourage us, support us? With compassion and

understanding? What are you here for?

>

> I hate to be upset this early in the morning, and I really don't

want to get into any arguments with you. But you know what? To be

quite frank, I am just getting a little bit tired of this crap. I

hate having to go toe to toe with you . You always have to be

right. You always have to make sure our opinions fall in line with

yours. You are sarcastic and edgy. I think I've about gotten to the

end of my rope with this. Maybe you should have a Dr. Kolb support

group of your own?

>

> , if you want to be here to help us then do so. You talk

about positive energy and all that other good stuff, but where is

yours? Yeah, it is nice to have a doctor on the group to help us with

our questions. But does that mean I have to have your opinions

shoved down my throat, too? I have my own opinions and I am entitled

to them, and if you don't like it, do I have to hear about it? You

don't seem to be able to identify with us here. I think I can speak

for most of the others here when I say we were sick, and we don't

respect our plastic surgeons anymore, at least the ones who put them

in. As Gloria Bywalec stated in her book " Betrayed " , he plastic

surgeon became a traitor. Look at the title to her book! Betrayed!

, whether you like it or not, some people are not going to feel

good about plastic surgeons anymore. Period. You can spout off all

you want about the wisdom of avoiding extreme beliefs about people,

but God gave us certain emotions, and he is not surprised by any of

them. Some of them may not be right, but I think our feelings of

betrayal at the hands of those we once trusted is expected. I know I

felt it. Even your protocol states that there is so much anger over

this. C'mon! Do you really expect us to feel warm and fuzzy about

what some other plastic surgeons do when we are still dealing with

our own anger about our own experience? Get real. And give us some

slack. Nobody is perfect. Not me, not you, not anyone.

>

> My goal was to get better. My next goal was to help others. I

don't want to hear about putting implants in women and how some are

safer than others, and I KNOW you have advised some women that they

can get their implants replaced and put back in, EVEN AFTER THEY WERE

ILL. You may find nothing wrong with that , but I DO. I know

you do alot of good and are trying to help those of us who are

victims, but to me it looks like you are riding the fence. Like I

said, I don't know if you identify with us here. Don't all (there's

one of those nasty words, be careful!) doctors take an oath to " do no

harm " ? By putting implants back in a woman who was sick from them,

isn't that knowingly doing harm?

>

> This group was about healing from our experiences with implants,

preferably using holistic healing and alternative medicine. I

appreciate the fact that you are a holistic doctor. (Although I

seriously question how you can continue to put in breast implants,

since the idea of breast implants inside of a body is totally

contrary to the fundamental beliefs of natural health. Seems odd to

me.) I really don't want anyone to leave, but at the same time, I am

sick to death of the fact that every time we have a problem on this

group, you are right there at the center of it.

>

> Patty

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: Dr.Kolb

>

> Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 6:29 AM

> Subject: RE: Re: Patty

>

>

> : Did you read the article in the Plastic and

Reconstructive

> Surgery Journal last month on the problems with textured

implants? Do

> you know what is going on in actuality or do you rely on your

opinions?

> .

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: naturalbeauty38 [mailto:naturalbeauty38@y...]

> Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 6:12 AM

>

> Subject: Re: Patty

>

>

> I have been working in the medical field for many years, in a

big

> teaching university in California and also here in the best

hospital

> in the state of Idaho and I can quite honestly state that most

all

> Dr's do not believe in implants causing illness, especially

saline.

> For most of us that have been sickened by these devices it is

hard to

> feel compassion toward a field of professionals that have

treated us

> like crap. You cannot realistically expect us to feel much

respect

> toward these Dr's and you can post here as much as you want on

this

> subject but it won't change our minds. Why don't we just move

off

> this subject. As you can see this group is going down hill

because of

> the bickering and it really is sad because I think that most of

us,

> and myself imparticular have been trying to stay away from

sensitive

> subjects and remain focused on support and trying to help

women.

> Bottom line of this group once again is supporting sick women,

not

> plastic surgeons.Sorry.

[Guest guest]

That certainly is scary.

I think we have put too much trust in doctors in general. They are not infallible, and I think we need to be really careful of the advice we are given. It is too bad we have had to become this watchful, when they are the ones who went to school to learn how to take care of the human body. My feeling is that so many of them are arrogant and careless in their treatment of the human body, prescribing drugs that can be very damaging, and doing other things to our bodies that seem questionable. I think that is why there is such a large interest in natural healing these days. So many people have gotten tired of the way they get treated, and are looking for simpler, safer remedies. Of course, there still seem to be a large group of people who will follow the crowd. I guess there always will be. I just always learned that the crowd may be wrong!

----- Original Message -----

From: Honee Aylmer

Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 3:24 PM

Subject: Re: Re: Patty

I worked as a surgical nurse in California for 6 years, and have seen two doctors that have put in implants that were not Plastic Surgeons. One of the docs was a general practitioner. Some women feel so comfortable with their family doc, that they will let them do anything. One lady let her GP put in implants, enlarge her lips and various facial treatments. Scary!

[Guest guest]

But Martha, correctly orchestrated studies with sound and clear conclusions take lots of money to fund. , who are you working with and who is funding you?

----- Original Message -----

From: MARTHA

Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 9:52 PM

Subject: Re: Re: Patty

She is not working alone!

She has much medical & scientific support, in sinc with her!

mm

Martha Murdock, DirectorNational Silicone Implant Foundation | Dallas Headquarters"Supporting Survivors of Medical Implant Devices"4416 Willow LaneDallas, TX 75244-7537

----- Original Message -----

From: ~*Patty*~

Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 11:26 PM

Subject: Re: Re: Patty

Good luck , I hope you are able to educate them all so they will understand us and take us seriously. I am not sure how it works when one person is working alone to figure it all out, but I wish you the best.

[Guest guest]

I guess that is why we are here! Let's not forget that. And let's be firmly entrenched in our beliefs that breast implants are dangerous products with huge risks to the health of women, serving no medically necessary function for life.

----- Original Message -----

From: Dr.Kolb

Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 9:46 PM

Subject: RE: Re: Patty

One person figures it out by clinical observation just like penicillin and many other medical innovations were discovered. I also have the benefit of knowledge of immunology and holistic medicine which many plastic surgeons do not. I also have the radio show that allows me to interview in depth doctors in other areas such as rheumatology and toxicology and neurology so we may share what we know. I have also been blessed with medical intuitive skills which help me a great deal in the understanding of disease including immune, autoimmune, and cancer. I also have the direct knowledge as I was ill with silicone disease and I know the disease from a personal perspective as well. As Margaret Mead once said: Never doubt that a small group of dedicated people can change the world, indeed this is the only thing that ever has. .

[Guest guest]

Sorry, which facts make me angry? I have never stated that I was angry about any fact about implants.

The thing that I get angry about is when implants are defended by those who put them in. I absolutely cannot understand the defense of implants used on a healthy breast. The full ugly truth about implants is not clearly told, women are misled, great amounts of harm result, pain and suffering ensue, loss of income occurs, loss of the ability to function, loss of husbands in some cases, loss of all that is held dear. How can this suffering be trivialized? It blows my mind.

The opinions you shove down my throat is the idea that I shouldn't view plastic surgeons with the distaste that I do. We live in different worlds, . Sorry I can't share your view. I don't think you understand the way I feel about you, either. I am quite happy to have an educated person on the group who has walked in our shoes, especially a plastic surgeon, a victim of the product they promote. (Understanding of course, that I am not happy you got sick, just appreciative of the fact that you can understand our illness.) I had thought you were able to identify with our pain, and in your concern for others, would not want anyone else to go through what we have. However, the reality is that you don't seem to have suffered the way some of us have. Maybe if you had lost everything you owned, or had become so sick that you could no longer function or work it would be a different story. There are women out there that fit that description, as you well know. They have lost everything. They have no future, only a fading memory of a happier and healthier past, medical bills that have brought them to the brink of bankruptcy or total financial disaster, no hope for a better tomorrow, and suffering that goes on today just like it did yesterday and the day before, with no end in sight. So, to sit there and defend a worthless product like implants when you have been sick from them just makes no sense, especially when you have taken an oath to do no harm. Sorry, , it makes no sense to me no matter how you wrap it up and tie it with a bow.

Patty

----- Original Message -----

From: Dr.Kolb

Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 8:32 PM

Subject: RE: Re: Patty

Patty: The article on textured implants came off the breast implant support site which I believe you get as well. I am surprised that you have not read it. I can fax you a copy if you like. The facts are that the majority of problems with breast implants occur in textured implants not smooth as confirmed by Dr. Feng and Dr. Shanklin, myself and others who deal with large numbers of patients. I am sorry if this information makes you or angry. I do not recommend saline replacement for women who are ill from saline implants as they are usually infected. I do not recommend saline replacement for women who are very ill from silicone implants either but I will reimplant women if they choose as I have a good track record with the protocol of getting women better even with reimplantation but I do let them know they will get better quicker if they do not reimplant. I am sorry that the way I choose to handle my medical practice is upsetting to you and but I believe that women deserve to make informed choices regarding their health and I do my best to help them do this. It is a shame that you feel the way you do towards me given that I am the one plastic surgeon making an effort to understand this disease and educate other physicians. I hope that you feel better now that you have vented your feelings on the board. Which opinions have I shoved down your throat? .

[Guest guest]

Tell me which plastic surgeons did not side with the manufacturers? Where are they? Did they go run and hide to protect their behinds, or are they out there defending us? I have a hard time finding good ones, that is no secret! I would feel alot better about the whole thing if the ASPRS started doing something for us victims instead of always treating us like dirt that needs to be swept under the rug. I know not all plastic surgeons are greedy and evil, I think we are smart enough to be able to judge this for ourselves . But the truth is that the biggest organization of plastic surgeons in existence does not acknowledge the pain they've put us in.

----- Original Message -----

From: Dr.Kolb

Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 8:55 PM

Subject: RE: Patty

Dear Wanda: I am not threatening anyone by my comments only stating facts of what occurs whenever I am attacked on the board. Why would you interpret this comment as a threat? As a plastic surgeon I do object to blanket statements about all plastic surgeons as well as object to blanket statements about silicone women sick from their implants which is also a category that I fall into. Not all plastic surgeons sided with the manufacturers and it is good to remind the women on this site of this fact. I think it is in the best interest of the women on this site to know that not all plastic surgeons are greedy and evil people. Many still will have to interact with them in the future to remove their implants or perform breast reconstructions. If it makes everyone feel better to malign them, that is fine, but I hope to educate both groups so that healing can occur. .