Blood test

[Guest guest]

Thank you Sheila, for your reply.

And thank you , although my answer was specifically directed to

Sheila. I don't want to come across as unfriendly, but who are you? I

know Sheila and trust her knowledge and experience implicitly, indeed,

with my life, as that's what it comes down to, but I don't know you

and your enthusiastic contributions on this forum over the last few

days have left me feeling uneasy, to say the least.

Jan

-- In thyroid treatment , " sheilaturner "

<sheilaturner@...> wrote:

>

> Chuck

>

> T4 and T3 blood test results for those on Armour will not be lower

>

> We find that our results for those of us on Armour show T4 and T3 to

be in the upper third of the reference range - and often right at the

top, which is to be expected. This is why we recommend our members to

not take Armour for at least 24 hours before testing. We recommend

this because if our T3 is too high and our TSH is naturally

suppressed, the doctor almost always tells us " you are taking too

much and showing signs of hyper " and they try to drop our dose.

Because doctors in the UK THR. This is a mistake.

>

> Sheila

>

>

> Jan and Sheila,

>

> Sheila wrote:

> >

> > For somebody on T4 only, the blood results for TSH would be

expected to

> > be around 1.0 or slightly less. For somebody who is taking

Armour, the

> > TSH would in all likelihood, be completely suppressed...

>

> T4 and FT4 would also be lower on Armour.

>

> Chuck

>

>

>

>

>

>

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>

>

> No virus found in this incoming message.

> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com

> Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.14/1643 - Release Date:

30/08/2008 17:18

>

[Guest guest]

I must agree Jan I have felt uneasy with the new members here and after reading some of their posts, I really dont need anymore doubt and anxiety over what I am doing but I am afraid it has given me just that, I need hope and encouragement and this is the only place I get it, but doubt overwhelms me sometimes> > > > For somebody on T4 only, the blood results for TSH would beexpected to > > be around 1.0 or slightly less. For somebody who is takingArmour, the > > TSH would in all likelihood, be completely suppressed.. .> > T4 and FT4 would also be lower on Armour.> > Chuck> > > > > >------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> > > > No virus found in this incoming message.> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg. com > Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.14/1643 - Release Date:30/08/2008 17:18>

[Guest guest]

Sheila,

You wrote:

>

> T4 and T3 blood test results for those on Armour will not be lower

I didn't say T3; I said T4 would be lower, along with the TSH.

For the same level of T3 or symptom relief, T4 will most certainly be

lower, a simple matter of accounting. If all of the T3 comes from

conversion of the T4 supply, then that T4 supply has to be higher to

keep the same level of T3 as with a medication that supplies T3

directly. Therefore the T4 level with Armour HAS to be lower.

The TSH is lower, as you agreed, the higher the proportion of T3 taken,

since the direct T3 " spikes " the levels. The pituitary responds by

lowering the TSH. This is the major reason why the TSH test needs

interpretation with a T3 medication.

Chuck

>

> We find that our results for those of us on Armour show T4 and T3 to be

> in the upper third of the reference range - and often right at the top,

> which is to be expected. This is why we recommend our members to not

> take Armour for at least 24 hours before testing. We recommend this

> because if our T3 is too high and our TSH is naturally suppressed, the

> doctor almost always tells us " you are taking too much and showing signs

> of hyper " and they try to drop our dose. Because doctors in the UK THR.

> This is a mistake.

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I am sure when your hc is sufficient you will lose this anxiety & insecurity - this really is just a symptom of too little hc.

Val

I need hope and encouragement and this is the only place I get it, but doubt overwhelms me sometimes

[Guest guest]

Hi Chuck,

My TSH is suppressed. I take 50mcg thyroxine & 2.75 grains armour.

I argued this with the endo I saw recently & he said that if you take too much of T4 or T3 the TSH will go down, which is obviously true, but he would not listen to me saying that armour suppresses TSH.

Have you any quality scientific papers I could quote to him & print out (he would not listen to anything less) proving that TSH is suppressed by T3 or armour?

Thanks,

Val

The TSH is lower, as you agreed, the higher the proportion of T3 taken, since the direct T3 "spikes" the levels. The pituitary responds by lowering the TSH. This is the major reason why the TSH test needs interpretation with a T3 medication.Chuck

[Guest guest]

Val,

You wrote:

>

> Have you any quality scientific papers I could quote to him & print out

> (he would not listen to anything less) proving that TSH is suppressed by

> T3 or armour?

>

This very old question is controversial, so your endo will probably not

be swayed by just the papers on one side. It is kind of a general

knowledge issue, but different people interpret the same phenomena in

very different ways. On one side, the stated " equivalence " of T3 meds to

T4 is based on the dose that causes the same change in TSH. TSH is used

as the standard.

So, the conventional argument against T3 medication is that the

" equivalent " dose of T3 appears to be less effective than T4 at

relieving symptoms, which is the standard spin against T3. This is

because the TSH response is sensitive to the daily peak in T3, while the

metabolic benefits depend more on the average during the day. You could

call it the integrated T3 level.

Instead of looking at the TSH, if you calibrate to the equivalent

symptom relief, then T3 medication will result in a lower TSH. To me

that means the TSH is suppressed. There are many papers that discuss the

way TSH responds to T3 meds, but I doubt that they will give your endo

the spin you want.

Here is one that sent me this morning off list. If you would like

the full article, I can send that. I believe it cites an earlier test in

which patients allowed to adjust their T3 medicines to their comfort

level consistently chose a dose about 30% higher than would have been

indicated by the conventional reliance on TSH.

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/routledg/cjne/2000/00000010/00000002/art00\

002

Here is one that demonstrates " suppression " of TSH from using Cytomel,

but they attribute the effect to the cold climate.

H. L. , J. A. Ferreiro, K. M. Mohamed Shakir, K. D. Burman and J. T.

O', " Pituitary and peripheral hormone responses to T3

administration during Antarctic residence, " Am J Physiol Endocrinol

Metab 254: E733-E739, 1988.

Very little is known regarding hormonal adaptation in human subjects who

are exposed to the extremes of temperature and light that are found in

polar latitudes. We have previously reported a 50% elevation in the

serum thyrotropin (TSH) response to thyrotropin-releasing hormone (TRH),

a fall in serum total triiodothyronine (T3) and free T3 (fT3), and no

change in serum total thyroxine (T4) or free T4 (fT4) after 42 wk of

Antarctic cold exposure. To differentiate between central and peripheral

mechanisms that may lead to these changes, we report the effect of

sequentially increasing oral doses of T3 (Cytomel) on serum T3 and fT3

levels and on the resultant attenuation of the TSH response to TRH in

nine men before, during, and after 42 wk residence in Antarctica. Serum

T3 values basally and following the administration of 25, 50, and 75

micrograms/day of T3 were lower after 42 wk of cold exposure (151 +/- 4,

160 +/- 8, 189 +/- 10, and 222 +/- 14 ng/dl, respectively, compared with

control values of 160 +/- 7, 178 +/- 7, 202 +/- 9, and 251 +/- 19 ng/dl,

respectively, P less than 0.05). Likewise, the fT3 values measured after

these three increasing T3 doses were also lower after 42 wk of cold

exposure. The pituitary response to TRH was attenuated by each T3

regimen (48 +/- 6, 68 +/- 4, and 77 +/- 4% decreases in the control

period), and this suppression was not different after 20 and 42 wk of

Antarctic residence.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)

Sorry I can't be definitive in terms of peer reviewed literature. There

are lots of other types of literature that will say what you want, but

your endo won't be swayed by those, either.

One key issue is whether suppression of TSH below 0.1 by T3 meds will be

as harmful as it is when achieved by T4. They have only done tests on

T4, and found the very low TSH dangerous when continued for more than

three months. I really doubt that suppression to the same TSH by T3 will

be as dangerous, but there has never been a definitive study to prove

it, one way or the other.

Chuck

[Guest guest]

I'm American, male, 67, retired and was diagnosed with hypothyroidism 2

or 3 years ago. One of the lucky ones, I guess; as I had no symptoms of

hypo prior to the discover of elevated TSH. I'm also lucky that 75 mcg

Synthroid has brought my TSH to well within range, and I continue

symptom free. My original tests indicated my hypo was probably caught

almost as soon as it started.

I've spent a lot of time trying to learn about hypothyroidism. While

I'm symptom free I can't be sure that will always be the case. I'm

trying to learn all I can in case I need to essentially self treat at

some point in the future, as so many apparently need to do. One of the

things that vexes me the most is that so many people report not feeling

well after receiving T4; and sometimes [often?] even after receiving

both T4 and T3. I've read and asked a lot of questions about that

without really coming up with any answer that seems to fit all or even

most cases. Or maybe I just don't understand them...

I have no degrees or formal training. I guess most of my education has

come from reading literally thousands of books. I have a decent

understanding and appreciation of the scientific method. I try wherever

I can to answer questions and provide opinions that hopefully will be of

help to others, as so many have offered help to me. You should take any

posit I make as an OPINION; however, I try to be accurate. I would be

very unhappy if I thought you or anyone else " ...trusted me with your

life " . Sometimes my attempts at humor fall spectacularly flat...

I believe I mentioned on this list that I react very negatively to those

who enrich themselves at the expense of sick, poor, desperate and too

often ill informed people. I can be a bit blunt; I've been known to

call a quack a quack [ggg]...

Regards,

..

..

> And thank you , although my answer was specifically directed to

> Sheila. I don't want to come across as unfriendly, but who are you? I

> know Sheila and trust her knowledge and experience implicitly, indeed,

> with my life, as that's what it comes down to, but I don't know you

> and your enthusiastic contributions on this forum over the last few

> days have left me feeling uneasy, to say the least.

>

> Jan

[Guest guest]

Hi

Thank you for replying. I'm really sorry if I came across a bit

blunt, I wasn't sure of you, but now I know you are just like us it

makes me feel better.

I self treat with Armour, so I can't really go to my GP when I have

questions, and I must admit I feel a bit protective towards this forum

as its the only place I can go when I need clear information and

support.

Its nice to meet you and sorry again.

Jan

>

> I'm American, male, 67, retired and was diagnosed with hypothyroidism 2

> or 3 years ago. One of the lucky ones, I guess; as I had no

symptoms of

> hypo prior to the discover of elevated TSH. I'm also lucky that 75 mcg

> Synthroid has brought my TSH to well within range, and I continue

> symptom free. My original tests indicated my hypo was probably caught

> almost as soon as it started.

>

> I've spent a lot of time trying to learn about hypothyroidism. While

> I'm symptom free I can't be sure that will always be the case. I'm

> trying to learn all I can in case I need to essentially self treat at

> some point in the future, as so many apparently need to do. One of the

> things that vexes me the most is that so many people report not feeling

> well after receiving T4; and sometimes [often?] even after receiving

> both T4 and T3. I've read and asked a lot of questions about that

> without really coming up with any answer that seems to fit all or even

> most cases. Or maybe I just don't understand them...

>

> I have no degrees or formal training. I guess most of my education has

> come from reading literally thousands of books. I have a decent

> understanding and appreciation of the scientific method. I try

wherever

> I can to answer questions and provide opinions that hopefully will

be of

> help to others, as so many have offered help to me. You should take

any

> posit I make as an OPINION; however, I try to be accurate. I would be

> very unhappy if I thought you or anyone else " ...trusted me with your

> life " . Sometimes my attempts at humor fall spectacularly flat...

>

> I believe I mentioned on this list that I react very negatively to

those

> who enrich themselves at the expense of sick, poor, desperate and too

> often ill informed people. I can be a bit blunt; I've been known to

> call a quack a quack [ggg]...

>

> Regards,

>

> .

>

[Guest guest]

HI Marie - yes, don't take your Armour tonight and good luck.

Luv - Sheila

Hi every one i go for blood test on Tuesday at

9.15 a.m. do i stop my

armour on Monday night as it will then be 24hours since the last time i

took it which will be tonight.Marie

.._,___

[Guest guest]

Depends what you tell your GP! If you have a GP who wont listen to

you, I'd just keep taking the levothyroxine prescriptions from him and

let the NHS continue doing the blood tests. Bottom line is its their

job to " do no harm " and treat you in the best way for YOU. Part of

that is giving you the appropriate medication; the other part is

monitoring your progress.

It sounds like you've had to take the first part into your own hands,

ie trying Armour. But I can see no moral or other reason why they

shouldnt continue doing the blood tests.

If it were me, I'd continue seeing Dr P and following his

recommendations. After all he has many years more experience at this

than your GP. But if your GP is that difficult and refusing to listn

to you, I'd keep that information from him but continue asking him for

the necessary blood tests.

[Guest guest]

I am sorry to hear that this happened to you Lilian.

How are things going with your pursuit of the elusive T3 treatment?

Mo

>

> This morning I had to go for a few blood tests, one a fasting

one. I went to the usual place I go (20 minutes away), because I

can usually find a parking place. However there was a lot of

building works being done and just nowhere to park.

>

> So I went back to the hospital, another 20 minute journey. Got

to the hospital and had to wait one and a half hours, on the most

uncomfortable seat imaginable.

>

> I was getting concerned because I had not given myself any insulin

in the morning and thought I would be home by 9.30/10.

>

> When I finally got home I was so wiped out I could not believe

it. I put my foot on the stair and couldn't move. The stairs

looked enormous and very high, like I was a 2 year old trying to

climb the stairs.

>

> Then I realised - I had not taken my Armour for two days I

took one grain and half an hour later the stairs looked normal again

and I went up them. I even went swimming this afternoon and was

fine.

>

> It was obviously not the T4 I needed as that is still in my blood

stream - the TSH result will show that - but I obviously still need

the T3. So that answers my question, I am not cured of not

converting after 5 years of taking T3

>

> Lilian

>

[Guest guest]

Yes Margaret - you can still have

thyroid function tests done through the NHS. Unfortunately, when you are taking

ALL the thyroid hormones that are naturally in Armour, your blood results show

different to the blood results done when using synthetic levothyroxine alone.

Because you are getting all the thyroid hormones your body requires, your

thyroid stimulating hormone (TSH) test will be very suppressed. Your FT4 and

FT3 will both be high in the reference range, and because of this, doctors will

believe you are going hyPERthyroid and try to persuade you that you are taking

too much thyroid hormone replacement. However, such readings are normal with

natural thyroid extract. One way to get over this is to stop taking ANY thyroid

hormone replacement for at least 24 hours before you have your thyroid function

tests. To be honest, thyroid function tests are often useless to titrate

medication once you have started taking thyroid replacement.

Luv -

Sheila

Hi

all can anyone advise me please. If you see Dr P and buy Armour as

your own GP refuses to prescribe it.Are you still okay to have blood

tests on the NHS ????? Or do you have to start monitoring your blood

privately too???

Margaret

[Guest guest]

Wow Mo, that was an old message. Such a lot has happened since then it would clog the airways if I went through it all

But to cut a long story short, through Sheila's list I found an endo who is prepared to prescribe me T3 - albeit not enough but it is a start.

Because my GP didn't want to be proved wrong he decided he would put my tiredness down to sleep apnoea. This means that until I am cleared through the hospital and DVLA I cannot drive. This has not only taken away my independence it also means I have to sleep EVERY night with a CPAP mask, which causes me great distress.

On top of all this my old dog had to be put to sleep, just before Christmas. Cannot talk about this as it is too distressing.

The GP asked me if I still go swimming. I said not since I am not allowed to drive as I cannot get there. He suggested a taxi. I told him that I am a pensioner not a doctor earning £100K a year.

I am, in fact, having another blood test done tomorrow and this will be for T4 and T3, which has been requested by the endo. He has also requested a urine test for morning cortisol, although I am not too sure if I am supposed to take it at any special time of the morning.

He has also requested non fasting lipid test.

My GP has obviously been discussing this with his colleagues or others because why would he emphasise to me that he is acting medically and legally correct.

Lilian

[Guest guest]

Oh was it LOL!!!!!!!!!

How did I do that? LOL

Oh I am up to date on the horrible GP and his notion of sleep apnoea

but had no idea about your darling dog Lilian, I am SO sorry. I

understand this would be too painful to talk about now but, later on,

if you want to talk offline at any time, pse get in touch with me.

I have heard that the urine test for cortisol is not much use because

it only gives the snapshot and not the full picture of the daily

rhythm?

Perhaps you could do it at 8 am when cortisol is supposed to be

highest? I THINK it is 8 am anyway Lilers, don't go by me - I am

answering posts from last April LOL...... I cannot understand what

happened.

Yes it does sound like the Horrible Sadist GP has checked his back

with someone, doesn't it? Guilty conscience.

Hopefully your endo will up the dose when he gets the results.

Mo

>

> My GP has obviously been discussing this with his colleagues or

others because why would he emphasise to me that he is acting

medically and legally correct.

>

> Lilian

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Lilian

I have

often wondered whether people actually DO get cured of not converting the T4

into T3. I am so pleased you have put yourself back on to Armour as your source

of T3 but wonder at your blood test results. Had I known you were going for a

blood test, I think I would probably have recommended you stay off your Armour

for at least a week before getting your blood tested and not just for 24 hours.

I guess your results will show a healthy FT3 and might make your doctors

believe that the levothyroxine is doing its job nicely thank you very much.

Depending upon the result, you might have to come clean and tell them that you

had started taking Armour again, or would that mean your doctor would sack you.

Is it any

wonder we are driven to telling our doctors lies to save our health?

Luv -

Sheila

>

> Then I realised - I had not taken my Armour for two days I

took one grain and half an hour later the stairs looked normal again

and I went up them. I even went swimming this afternoon and was

fine.

>

> It was obviously not the T4 I needed as that is still in my blood

stream - the TSH result will show that - but I obviously still need

the T3. So that answers my question, I am not cured of not

converting after 5 years of taking T3

>

> Lilian

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Lilian

I would

take a sample of urine and 8.00a.m. and another sample at 12.00noon if your

doctor insists on a 'morning' sample. Take them in two separate bottles because

your cortisol should be at its highest in the morning and starting to decrease

at mid-day, decreasing gradually until it is at it's lowest at midnight. Glad

you have your GP worried - he need worrying in the same way he has consistently

worried you.

Luv -

Sheila

> My GP has obviously been discussing this with his colleagues or

others because why would he emphasise to me that he is acting

medically and legally correct.

>

> Lilian

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Margaret,

Depends on the doc. Mine

refuses to prescribe Armour ( she would, but she is

scared to lose her licence to practice) but is happy to prescribe some of my

other thyroid meds and to do testing- which I share with my private doc, who

writes his recommendations to her.

Subject:

Blood test

Hi all can

anyone advise me please. If you see Dr P and buy Armour as your own

GP refuses to prescribe it.Are you still okay to have blood tests on the

NHS ????? Or do you have to start monitoring your blood privately too???

Margaret

[Guest guest]

Hi Lilian,

Sounds like you have made him

very nervous!

Because my GP didn't want to be proved wrong he decided he

would put my tiredness down to sleep apnoea

I am, in fact, having another blood test done tomorrow and this

will be for T4 and T3, which has been requested by the endo.

He has also requested a urine test for morning cortisol, although I am not too

sure if I am supposed to take it at any special time of the morning.

He has also requested non fasting lipid test.

My GP has obviously been discussing this with his colleagues or

others because why would he emphasise to me that he is acting medically

and legally correct.

Lilian

[Guest guest]

Anne

'Short Synacthen test'

Bob

>

> Have just had a conversation with my GP after a visit before

Christmas.  She wanted to check the 'validity' of my ASI test with

our local Endo. He has suggested some tests which we can do at the

surgery, has not requested to see me!!

> I have remembered most of what she said but can't quite remember

the second test she mentioned.  Maybe someone will recognise what

I'm talking about?

> The first thing is a 9am cortisol blood test, if results are above

400 I don't have a problem.... below 400 I can then take another test

(this is what I can't quite remember), I asked if it would be an ACTH

but she said no, think she called it a short synapses test or used

those words in a different order??...

> If anyone can help me I would be very grateful and then maybe I can

do some reading before this all takes place.

> Thanks

>

> Anne

>

[Guest guest]

Hi

Anne

I

think the test your GP is talking about is the short synacthen test. What they

do first thing in the morning is to take a blood sample to check the baseline

level of cortisol. After that, they give you an injection of synacthen.  This

is to stimulate your own body production of cortisol. Another blood sample will

be taken at 30 minutes and 60 minutes after the stimulation to measure the

cortisol level. This test is done to see if you have too little cortisol as in

the case of 's disease or too much, as in the case of Cushing's syndrome,

but if you do not have 's or Cushings,  the test will show your adrenals

are functioning fine, as synacthen would make a dead donkey kick. You will probably feel very well and

quite euphoric for the next 24 hours because of the synacthen. I can more or

less guarantee that your result will show that you DO NOT have low cortisol -

and as far as the NHS is concerned, that will be that.

The

best test is the 24 hour salivary adrenal profile that tests your cortisol and

DHEA at four specific times during the day i .e. 8.00a.m. - 12.00noon -

4.00p.m. and again at midnight. The NHS will deny you have low adrenal reserve

and this is why we have to encourage people to look after this themselves and

get tested privately.

Luv -

Sheila

The first thing is a 9am cortisol blood test, if

results are above 400 I don't have a problem.... below 400 I can then take

another test (this is what I can't quite remember), I asked if it would be an

ACTH but she said no, think she called it a short synapses test or used those

words in a different order??...

If anyone can help me I would be very grateful and then maybe I can do some

reading before this all takes place.

Thanks

Anne

[Guest guest]

Hi Anne

Just to let you know that I had migraines for years prior to receiving treatment for my thyroid condition and also visual disturbance which caused temporary "blindness" (A kind of "sparkling" in front of my eye that obstructed my vision and lasted about 30 mins before clearing)

Strangely once I received thyroid hormone medication (I know it was only levothyroxine at the time) it went away and has only returned twice in three years (not sure why it did) I think migraines are definately a symptom of hypothyroidism as I suffered for about 5 years and it was only the medication that stopped them. I wondered if perhaps being on an inadaquate dose may bring them back again?

Mazzy

[Guest guest]

Hi anne,

My migraines stopped as soon

as I got the right thyroid meds ( Dr. P) .

Thanks Sheila, That is what she was talking about, I just

couldn't quite remember.

Well, it'll be no surprise if they tell me I'm absolutely fine !! Ha ha !!

Why is she not looking at why I

get so many migraines & listening to me when I say I have been more tired

and get more since I started working again 4 yrs ago. Dr P thinks they are

caused by my not having enough energy to keep going, which explains why every

day I work I get a migraine...

Bit of a rant tonight, frustration I suppose.

Thanks for info

Anne

[Guest guest]

Any one know why it takes 3-4 wks to get your HCV RNA Fibrosure test back?

Do they grow cultures or what?

[Guest guest]

All I know, Beth, is when my son was tested for every hepatitis under the sun, after turning yellow - they had to cut him loose from the hospital before the results came back. Then, LOL those tests did not tell the Drs what they thought it should. So, they ordered another round of blood work to be tested. In the end, he had Mono.Gloria

Any one know why it takes 3-4 wks to get your HCV RNA Fibrosure test back?

Do they grow cultures or what?