Guest guest Posted November 2, 2007 Report Share Posted November 2, 2007 Thanks foer the expertise Ed, and thanks to all the other replies. I'm going to get some PH strips. - On 11/2/07, Ed Kasper <eddy@...> wrote: > > > > With the recent recall of Frozen Pizza (jenos & tortinos) due to the > danger of E.Coli, which has hospitalized several people I have to > rethink my safe fermenting practices. Flash Frozen then Baked and e > coli still was able to proliferate, wow to that. > > I trust the Cornell University Food Science Study > (http://www.happyherbalist.com/analysis_of_kt_cornell.htm > <http://www.happyherbalist.com/analysis_of_kt_cornell.htm> ) outlines a > safe healthy and beneficial kombucha tea. Very easy, basic recipe, no > special tools except for pH strips. The use of pH as an indicator is > very common in ferments. The strips are widely available as are accurate > easy to read digital meters. ($20 and up). True, one's taste is the most > often used guide. But not always for beginners nor for really good > advanced brewers. For example Len Pozio (long time member and wrote the > Kombucha Balancing Act (www.geocities.com/kombucha_balance > <http://www.geocities.com/kombucha_balance> ) points out that he is able > to create a very pleasant kombucha tea without the often associated > sharp vingary taste. He equates this is the higher gluconic acid level > relative to the acetic acid level. Also to his 14 day 73-74 F (23.5C) > ferment from his super strain (see files section). > > So my Pizza e-coli Question is if one can not always equate safety to > the vinegary taste, or that freezing - then - baking doesn't destroy > e-coli isn't pH the only known safe way to go? > > Also, I would not add ingredients such as salt, Bentonite clay, herbs, > fruit juice, vitamin B12, and vitamin C, which could otherwise buffer > the liquid and prevent the pH from dropping rapidly to below pH 3.9. If > you want additives wait until after the kombucha has been properly > fermented. > > Water, tea and sugar, starter tea and the kombucha mushroom will start > out at a pH of ~ 6.7. The pH should drop daily, depending upon > temperature and strength of probiotics, to <4.0 within 2 weeks. It is > possible to create a safe and pleasant tasting kombucha tea (without a > sharp vinegary taste) via 9 day 79F (26.5C) pH 2.5 (Cornell) or 14 day > 73-74 F (23.5C) pH <3.0 (Len Pozio). > > Peace > > Ed Kasper LAc. & family > > www.HappyHerbalist.com > > ...................................................... > > Re: ph levels > > Posted by: " Ciccariello " ciccariello@...<ciccariello%40gmail.com>dostoevsky777 > > Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:05 am (PST) > > Ed, > > Greetings, I am a new member, and new at Kombucha tea. We have been > > following instructions and have managed to produce a very tasty product. > > After the fermentation process, we pour it into bottles with screw caps > and > > allow it to continue to ferment in the bottles putting some in the > > refrigerator to drink within a week or two. . Is there any concern about > > pathogens with a work process like this? > > Thanks, > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2007 Report Share Posted November 2, 2007 Thanks foer the expertise Ed, and thanks to all the other replies. I'm going to get some PH strips. - On 11/2/07, Ed Kasper <eddy@...> wrote: > > > > With the recent recall of Frozen Pizza (jenos & tortinos) due to the > danger of E.Coli, which has hospitalized several people I have to > rethink my safe fermenting practices. Flash Frozen then Baked and e > coli still was able to proliferate, wow to that. > > I trust the Cornell University Food Science Study > (http://www.happyherbalist.com/analysis_of_kt_cornell.htm > <http://www.happyherbalist.com/analysis_of_kt_cornell.htm> ) outlines a > safe healthy and beneficial kombucha tea. Very easy, basic recipe, no > special tools except for pH strips. The use of pH as an indicator is > very common in ferments. The strips are widely available as are accurate > easy to read digital meters. ($20 and up). True, one's taste is the most > often used guide. But not always for beginners nor for really good > advanced brewers. For example Len Pozio (long time member and wrote the > Kombucha Balancing Act (www.geocities.com/kombucha_balance > <http://www.geocities.com/kombucha_balance> ) points out that he is able > to create a very pleasant kombucha tea without the often associated > sharp vingary taste. He equates this is the higher gluconic acid level > relative to the acetic acid level. Also to his 14 day 73-74 F (23.5C) > ferment from his super strain (see files section). > > So my Pizza e-coli Question is if one can not always equate safety to > the vinegary taste, or that freezing - then - baking doesn't destroy > e-coli isn't pH the only known safe way to go? > > Also, I would not add ingredients such as salt, Bentonite clay, herbs, > fruit juice, vitamin B12, and vitamin C, which could otherwise buffer > the liquid and prevent the pH from dropping rapidly to below pH 3.9. If > you want additives wait until after the kombucha has been properly > fermented. > > Water, tea and sugar, starter tea and the kombucha mushroom will start > out at a pH of ~ 6.7. The pH should drop daily, depending upon > temperature and strength of probiotics, to <4.0 within 2 weeks. It is > possible to create a safe and pleasant tasting kombucha tea (without a > sharp vinegary taste) via 9 day 79F (26.5C) pH 2.5 (Cornell) or 14 day > 73-74 F (23.5C) pH <3.0 (Len Pozio). > > Peace > > Ed Kasper LAc. & family > > www.HappyHerbalist.com > > ...................................................... > > Re: ph levels > > Posted by: " Ciccariello " ciccariello@...<ciccariello%40gmail.com>dostoevsky777 > > Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:05 am (PST) > > Ed, > > Greetings, I am a new member, and new at Kombucha tea. We have been > > following instructions and have managed to produce a very tasty product. > > After the fermentation process, we pour it into bottles with screw caps > and > > allow it to continue to ferment in the bottles putting some in the > > refrigerator to drink within a week or two. . Is there any concern about > > pathogens with a work process like this? > > Thanks, > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2007 Report Share Posted November 3, 2007 First off I have to remind people that every time you go to the loo you poop out billions of E. coli. The kind of E. coli that kills people is not the same as the stuff we will encounter in our homes. Also it's worth noting that E. coli are the standard indicator of faecal contamination. I really don't see why most of us need worry about E. coli in our own home made KT. Jim > > > > > With the recent recall of Frozen Pizza (jenos & tortinos) due to the > danger of E.Coli, which has hospitalized several people I have to > rethink my safe fermenting practices. Flash Frozen then Baked and e > coli still was able to proliferate, wow to that. > ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2007 Report Share Posted November 3, 2007 First off I have to remind people that every time you go to the loo you poop out billions of E. coli. The kind of E. coli that kills people is not the same as the stuff we will encounter in our homes. Also it's worth noting that E. coli are the standard indicator of faecal contamination. I really don't see why most of us need worry about E. coli in our own home made KT. Jim > > > > > With the recent recall of Frozen Pizza (jenos & tortinos) due to the > danger of E.Coli, which has hospitalized several people I have to > rethink my safe fermenting practices. Flash Frozen then Baked and e > coli still was able to proliferate, wow to that. > ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2007 Report Share Posted November 3, 2007 Hi Ed and EveryOne, I believe I have read that Kombucha itself kills E-Coli and several other harmful bacteria but I don't remember where I read it and don't have time right now to look it up. Peace,Love and Harmony, Bev -- In kombucha tea , " Ed Kasper " <eddy@...> wrote: > > > > > With the recent recall of Frozen Pizza (jenos & tortinos) due to the > danger of E.Coli, which has hospitalized several people I have to > rethink my safe fermenting practices. Flash Frozen then Baked and e > coli still was able to proliferate, wow to that. > > I trust the Cornell University Food Science Study > (http://www.happyherbalist.com/analysis_of_kt_cornell.htm > <http://www.happyherbalist.com/analysis_of_kt_cornell.htm> ) outlines a > safe healthy and beneficial kombucha tea. Very easy, basic recipe, no > special tools except for pH strips. The use of pH as an indicator is > very common in ferments. The strips are widely available as are accurate > easy to read digital meters. ($20 and up). True, one's taste is the most > often used guide. But not always for beginners nor for really good > advanced brewers. For example Len Pozio (long time member and wrote the > Kombucha Balancing Act (www.geocities.com/kombucha_balance > <http://www.geocities.com/kombucha_balance> ) points out that he is able > to create a very pleasant kombucha tea without the often associated > sharp vingary taste. He equates this is the higher gluconic acid level > relative to the acetic acid level. Also to his 14 day 73-74 F (23.5C) > ferment from his super strain (see files section). > > So my Pizza e-coli Question is if one can not always equate safety to > the vinegary taste, or that freezing - then - baking doesn't destroy > e-coli isn't pH the only known safe way to go? > > Also, I would not add ingredients such as salt, Bentonite clay, herbs, > fruit juice, vitamin B12, and vitamin C, which could otherwise buffer > the liquid and prevent the pH from dropping rapidly to below pH 3.9. If > you want additives wait until after the kombucha has been properly > fermented. > > Water, tea and sugar, starter tea and the kombucha mushroom will start > out at a pH of ~ 6.7. The pH should drop daily, depending upon > temperature and strength of probiotics, to <4.0 within 2 weeks. It is > possible to create a safe and pleasant tasting kombucha tea (without a > sharp vinegary taste) via 9 day 79F (26.5C) pH 2.5 (Cornell) or 14 day > 73-74 F (23.5C) pH <3.0 (Len Pozio). > > Peace > > > > Ed Kasper LAc. & family > > www.HappyHerbalist.com > > ...................................................... > > Re: ph levels > > Posted by: " Ciccariello " ciccariello@... dostoevsky777 > > Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:05 am (PST) > > Ed, > > Greetings, I am a new member, and new at Kombucha tea. We have been > > following instructions and have managed to produce a very tasty product. > > After the fermentation process, we pour it into bottles with screw caps > and > > allow it to continue to ferment in the bottles putting some in the > > refrigerator to drink within a week or two. . Is there any concern about > > pathogens with a work process like this? > > Thanks, > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2007 Report Share Posted November 3, 2007 Hi Ed and EveryOne, I believe I have read that Kombucha itself kills E-Coli and several other harmful bacteria but I don't remember where I read it and don't have time right now to look it up. Peace,Love and Harmony, Bev -- In kombucha tea , " Ed Kasper " <eddy@...> wrote: > > > > > With the recent recall of Frozen Pizza (jenos & tortinos) due to the > danger of E.Coli, which has hospitalized several people I have to > rethink my safe fermenting practices. Flash Frozen then Baked and e > coli still was able to proliferate, wow to that. > > I trust the Cornell University Food Science Study > (http://www.happyherbalist.com/analysis_of_kt_cornell.htm > <http://www.happyherbalist.com/analysis_of_kt_cornell.htm> ) outlines a > safe healthy and beneficial kombucha tea. Very easy, basic recipe, no > special tools except for pH strips. The use of pH as an indicator is > very common in ferments. The strips are widely available as are accurate > easy to read digital meters. ($20 and up). True, one's taste is the most > often used guide. But not always for beginners nor for really good > advanced brewers. For example Len Pozio (long time member and wrote the > Kombucha Balancing Act (www.geocities.com/kombucha_balance > <http://www.geocities.com/kombucha_balance> ) points out that he is able > to create a very pleasant kombucha tea without the often associated > sharp vingary taste. He equates this is the higher gluconic acid level > relative to the acetic acid level. Also to his 14 day 73-74 F (23.5C) > ferment from his super strain (see files section). > > So my Pizza e-coli Question is if one can not always equate safety to > the vinegary taste, or that freezing - then - baking doesn't destroy > e-coli isn't pH the only known safe way to go? > > Also, I would not add ingredients such as salt, Bentonite clay, herbs, > fruit juice, vitamin B12, and vitamin C, which could otherwise buffer > the liquid and prevent the pH from dropping rapidly to below pH 3.9. If > you want additives wait until after the kombucha has been properly > fermented. > > Water, tea and sugar, starter tea and the kombucha mushroom will start > out at a pH of ~ 6.7. The pH should drop daily, depending upon > temperature and strength of probiotics, to <4.0 within 2 weeks. It is > possible to create a safe and pleasant tasting kombucha tea (without a > sharp vinegary taste) via 9 day 79F (26.5C) pH 2.5 (Cornell) or 14 day > 73-74 F (23.5C) pH <3.0 (Len Pozio). > > Peace > > > > Ed Kasper LAc. & family > > www.HappyHerbalist.com > > ...................................................... > > Re: ph levels > > Posted by: " Ciccariello " ciccariello@... dostoevsky777 > > Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:05 am (PST) > > Ed, > > Greetings, I am a new member, and new at Kombucha tea. We have been > > following instructions and have managed to produce a very tasty product. > > After the fermentation process, we pour it into bottles with screw caps > and > > allow it to continue to ferment in the bottles putting some in the > > refrigerator to drink within a week or two. . Is there any concern about > > pathogens with a work process like this? > > Thanks, > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2007 Report Share Posted November 3, 2007 Bev, your recent posting had Dr. Steinkraus, a Cornell University microbiologist, Found Kombucha effective against; 1) H. pylori (the one that causes ulcers), 2) E. coli (an important microbe in the intestines), 3) S aureus (common in skin infections and boils). earlier Cornell research indicated Found Kombucha effective against; 4) Agrobacterium tumefaciens 5} Bacillus cereus 6) Salmonella cholerasuis serotype typhimurium 7) Staphylococcus aureus *) Candida albicans was not inhibited by Kombucha. The kombucha was fermented for 9 days at 79F and had a pH of 2.5 total ac ids 33 g/L (7 g/L acetic acid) Cornell Food Science also compared the effects to tea (camellia) and determined it was the acetic acid not other factors that made the difference. I am still bugged by the ability of e coli to survive Flash Freezing and then Baking and assuming it doesn't sit around for long (most of my friends seem to burn their mouths instead of waiting for the pizza to cool off). If I correctly assume the cooked pizzas do not sit around too long then it seems either there was really a large concentration of e coli to begin with or (worse for us) a few e coli really like pizza. It isn't that the body can't cope with the pathogens as much as the body can't keep up with the rapid proliferation and poo-poo. With ALL the recent ecoli outbreaks over the last year I have not heard that it was a super bug. The reports I've seen said it was from contaminated water from nearby grazing cattle. (in the case of the lettuce) Interesting the Discovery Channel has a program on tonight 8:00pm - 8:30pm, DSC (15) How It's Made : " Horseshoes, Dishwashers, Graphite Fly Rods, Frozen Pizzas " Peace Ed Kasper LAc. & family www.HappyHerbalist.com ................................................. Re: ph levels Posted by: " yoganandaom " OM@... yoganandaom Sat Nov 3, 2007 1:15 pm (PST) Hi Ed and EveryOne, I believe I have read that Kombucha itself kills E-Coli and several other harmful bacteria but I don't remember where I read it and don't have time right now to look it up. Peace,Love and Harmony, Bev. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2007 Report Share Posted November 3, 2007 Bev, your recent posting had Dr. Steinkraus, a Cornell University microbiologist, Found Kombucha effective against; 1) H. pylori (the one that causes ulcers), 2) E. coli (an important microbe in the intestines), 3) S aureus (common in skin infections and boils). earlier Cornell research indicated Found Kombucha effective against; 4) Agrobacterium tumefaciens 5} Bacillus cereus 6) Salmonella cholerasuis serotype typhimurium 7) Staphylococcus aureus *) Candida albicans was not inhibited by Kombucha. The kombucha was fermented for 9 days at 79F and had a pH of 2.5 total ac ids 33 g/L (7 g/L acetic acid) Cornell Food Science also compared the effects to tea (camellia) and determined it was the acetic acid not other factors that made the difference. I am still bugged by the ability of e coli to survive Flash Freezing and then Baking and assuming it doesn't sit around for long (most of my friends seem to burn their mouths instead of waiting for the pizza to cool off). If I correctly assume the cooked pizzas do not sit around too long then it seems either there was really a large concentration of e coli to begin with or (worse for us) a few e coli really like pizza. It isn't that the body can't cope with the pathogens as much as the body can't keep up with the rapid proliferation and poo-poo. With ALL the recent ecoli outbreaks over the last year I have not heard that it was a super bug. The reports I've seen said it was from contaminated water from nearby grazing cattle. (in the case of the lettuce) Interesting the Discovery Channel has a program on tonight 8:00pm - 8:30pm, DSC (15) How It's Made : " Horseshoes, Dishwashers, Graphite Fly Rods, Frozen Pizzas " Peace Ed Kasper LAc. & family www.HappyHerbalist.com ................................................. Re: ph levels Posted by: " yoganandaom " OM@... yoganandaom Sat Nov 3, 2007 1:15 pm (PST) Hi Ed and EveryOne, I believe I have read that Kombucha itself kills E-Coli and several other harmful bacteria but I don't remember where I read it and don't have time right now to look it up. Peace,Love and Harmony, Bev. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2007 Report Share Posted November 4, 2007 Hi Ed and EveryOne, It is a form of Staph Aureus that is now resistant to antibiotics and is causing a lot of serious infections in the US. Wonder if Kombucha is effective against that strain? No doubt Kombucha is very helpful in keeping us healthy and our immune systems working well! Peace, Love and Harmony, Bev Manna International: Kombucha Information and Resources Kombucha Manna Drops - Convenient, Safe, Effective, Easy to use. Manna Green & White Tea Extract: Liquid Green Tea Drops 100% Certified Organic, Fair Traded, Ingredients: made and packaged only in Glass. http://KMI.mannainternational.com and http://mannainternational.com > > Bev, your recent posting had Dr. Steinkraus, a Cornell University > microbiologist, > Found Kombucha effective against; > > 1) H. pylori (the one that causes ulcers), > 2) E. coli (an important microbe in the intestines), > 3) S aureus (common in skin infections and boils). > > earlier Cornell research indicated > Found Kombucha effective against; > > 4) Agrobacterium tumefaciens > 5} Bacillus cereus > 6) Salmonella cholerasuis serotype typhimurium > 7) Staphylococcus aureus > *) Candida albicans was not inhibited by Kombucha. > > The kombucha was fermented for 9 days at 79F and had a pH of 2.5 total ac > ids 33 g/L (7 g/L acetic acid) Cornell Food Science also compared the > effects to tea (camellia) and determined it was the acetic acid not other > factors that made the difference. > > I am still bugged by the ability of e coli to survive Flash Freezing and > then Baking and assuming it doesn't sit around for long (most of my friends > seem to burn their mouths instead of waiting for the pizza to cool off). If > I correctly assume the cooked pizzas do not sit around too long then it > seems either there was really a large concentration of e coli to begin with > or (worse for us) a few e coli really like pizza. It isn't that the body > can't cope with the pathogens as much as the body can't keep up with the > rapid proliferation and poo-poo. > > With ALL the recent ecoli outbreaks over the last year I have not heard that > it was a super bug. The reports I've seen said it was from contaminated > water from nearby grazing cattle. (in the case of the lettuce) > > Interesting the Discovery Channel has a program on tonight 8:00pm - 8:30pm, > DSC (15) > How It's Made : " Horseshoes, Dishwashers, Graphite Fly Rods, Frozen Pizzas " > > Peace > > Ed Kasper LAc. & family > www.HappyHerbalist.com > ................................................ > > Re: ph levels > Posted by: " yoganandaom " OM@... yoganandaom > Sat Nov 3, 2007 1:15 pm (PST) > Hi Ed and EveryOne, > > I believe I have read that Kombucha itself kills E-Coli and several > other harmful bacteria but I don't remember where I read it and don't > have time right now to look it up. > > Peace,Love and Harmony, > Bev. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2007 Report Share Posted November 4, 2007 Hi Ed and EveryOne, Thank you for adding to the Cornell Research information. I got so curious after the question came up, that I went and looked for the source of the information about Kombucha and E.Coli. Reminds me of the way Colleen would go look something up. Fortunately, she also wrote a virtual online book about Kombucha now known as the Kombucha FAQ or Kombucha Unveiled. To read her online book about Kombucha please turn your browser to: http://users.bestweb.net/~om/~kombu/FAQ/index.shtml Enjoy! Peace, Love and Harmony, Bev -- In kombucha tea , " Happy Herbalist " <eddy@...> wrote: > > Bev, your recent posting had Dr. Steinkraus, a Cornell University > microbiologist, > Found Kombucha effective against; > > 1) H. pylori (the one that causes ulcers), > 2) E. coli (an important microbe in the intestines), > 3) S aureus (common in skin infections and boils). > > earlier Cornell research indicated > Found Kombucha effective against; > > 4) Agrobacterium tumefaciens > 5} Bacillus cereus > 6) Salmonella cholerasuis serotype typhimurium > 7) Staphylococcus aureus > *) Candida albicans was not inhibited by Kombucha. > > The kombucha was fermented for 9 days at 79F and had a pH of 2.5 total ac > ids 33 g/L (7 g/L acetic acid) Cornell Food Science also compared the > effects to tea (camellia) and determined it was the acetic acid not other > factors that made the difference. > > I am still bugged by the ability of e coli to survive Flash Freezing and > then Baking and assuming it doesn't sit around for long (most of my friends > seem to burn their mouths instead of waiting for the pizza to cool off). If > I correctly assume the cooked pizzas do not sit around too long then it > seems either there was really a large concentration of e coli to begin with > or (worse for us) a few e coli really like pizza. It isn't that the body > can't cope with the pathogens as much as the body can't keep up with the > rapid proliferation and poo-poo. > > With ALL the recent ecoli outbreaks over the last year I have not heard that > it was a super bug. The reports I've seen said it was from contaminated > water from nearby grazing cattle. (in the case of the lettuce) > > Interesting the Discovery Channel has a program on tonight 8:00pm - 8:30pm, > DSC (15) > How It's Made : " Horseshoes, Dishwashers, Graphite Fly Rods, Frozen Pizzas " > > Peace > > Ed Kasper LAc. & family > www.HappyHerbalist.com > ................................................ > > Re: ph levels > Posted by: " yoganandaom " OM@... yoganandaom > Sat Nov 3, 2007 1:15 pm (PST) > Hi Ed and EveryOne, > > I believe I have read that Kombucha itself kills E-Coli and several > other harmful bacteria but I don't remember where I read it and don't > have time right now to look it up. > > Peace,Love and Harmony, > Bev. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2007 Report Share Posted November 5, 2007 Ed the best thing is to make your own pizza, so much nicer and so much healthier. Jim >...> I am still bugged by the ability of e coli to survive Flash Freezing and > then Baking and assuming it doesn't sit around for long (most of my friends > seem to burn their mouths instead of waiting for the pizza to cool off). If > I correctly assume the cooked pizzas do not sit around too long then it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2007 Report Share Posted November 5, 2007 Ed the best thing is to make your own pizza, so much nicer and so much healthier. Jim >...> I am still bugged by the ability of e coli to survive Flash Freezing and > then Baking and assuming it doesn't sit around for long (most of my friends > seem to burn their mouths instead of waiting for the pizza to cool off). If > I correctly assume the cooked pizzas do not sit around too long then it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2011 Report Share Posted January 5, 2011 I suffer from low ph levels (5.0 in the am) and the foods on the list to help my candida issues are on the list NOT to eat to raise ph. What is the balance to remedy these to issues? Eggs and meat are big no-nos on the ph diet. Thanks, Kathy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2011 Report Share Posted January 5, 2011 Hi Kathy, Here are some articles that explain that acid/alkaline theory is false: http://www.healingnaturallybybee.com/articles/menu5_1.php Both eggs and meat are extremely important for healing the body, so it's best not to avoid them. Bee's program will eventually balance everything out anyway, so this is a non-issue. All the best, Group Moderator > > I suffer from low ph levels (5.0 in the am) and the foods on the list to help my candida issues are on the list NOT to eat to raise ph. > What is the balance to remedy these to issues? > Eggs and meat are big no-nos on the ph diet. > Thanks, > Kathy > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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