Re: Choices.

[Guest guest]

>>>she had severe attacks after flushes pointing the possibility of stones stuck

in the bile duct. According to her, after two flushes, she suffered a

life-threatening attack. She was willing to do more flushes but she was forced

to go for removal of gb. We should not blindly favour flushes, though they may

be very good, but should also taken into consideration its negative effects. We

must be realistic and truthful. It is not the matter of choice, as you have

stated.<<<

I don't remember all the details of the post you are referring to so my comments

are not specific to that case. Firstly, no one is forced to have their

gallbladder removed (talked into most likely but never forced). Nobody can

*force* another to do anything. We each have the right to refuse any 'care' if

we have the knowledge to realise it is not in our best interests or that there

is a better way.

Knowledge is power.

Secondly, flushes are not the complete answer. You must detox and improve your

lifestyle - eating, sleeping, exercising, relaxing, vaccinating and antibiotic

use, etc.You must support your body to function correctly ie correcting

imbalances - magnesium, selenium, lecithin, etc, etc whatever it is you identify

that your body needs to function correctly. Flushing but continuing your

previous lifestyle will not work.

Thirdly, You must educate yourself so you are in a position to deal with any

problem that may arise.

I am one of those who according to the specialists suffer 'life threatening bile

duct blockages causing extensive liver damage'. And I agree that, yes, they

would take my life if I didn't manage them properly and help my body to recover

afterwards. Fortunately through my own research I had already realised that I

suffered from liver dysfunction and had been studying it for several years

before my first life threatening incident. After some discussion with the

specialist I realised that he was not as educated as I on the subject despite

the fact that he supposedly 'specialised' in liver complaints and my specialty

was obstetrics. I discharged myself from hospital.

Unfortunately I suffered once more at the hands of a specialist a few months

later (Aug) with another supposedly 'stuck stone' but in hindsight it was a good

thing as after being convinced that I would be dead by Christmas (2002) unless I

had an ERCP to remove the stone, seen on MRI, I allowed the proceedure only to

have the surgeon discover that there was no longer a stone present. This

solidified my belief in my bodies ablilty.

The downside is that in their 'wisdom' the surgeon chose to snip my bile duct -

against my express wishes - a very dangerous proceedure that if done wrong is

irrepairable and will cause death. Thankfully I was spared from this occurrance

although I do believe that the scar tissue is now causing a problem which I am

dealing with.

This past weekend I again suffered from a stuck stone after a flush. This is

about the 3rd time now. At times like these I do not think clearly and I am now

determined to write myself a management plan that I am able to refer to in

future incidents as once I remembered about the castor oil packs the stone

passed in less than half an hour. Next time it will be the first thing I do!

The simplest way I have found for my body to deal with a stuck stone is to

either double flush (two doses of the oil and lemon juice a couple of hours

apart) or flush again the next night (Incidentally I use epsom salts as part of

my flush these days although I didn't always), sip lemon juice in water and

chamomile tea, use a castor oil pack, a heat pack, and hide myself away in a

darkened room - when I feel the need to stand and move around I do so otherwise

I rock or sometimes I just sit quietly. On one occasion I had to do three

flushes three nights in a row before the stone finally passed but usually it is

only twice.

The things I have learned NOT to do when I have a blockage are to fast, stop

eating good fats, reduce fluids and go to the hospital.

I hope this helps someone

Blessings

Mama.

P.S. I am still exclusively breastfeeding our baby and the flush appears to have

had no effect upon her at all, except for a minor reduction in milk supply which

was rectified by an extra feed for the last two days.

[Guest guest]

>>>On one occasion I had to do three flushes three nights in a row before the

stone finally passed<<<

This should have read... 'On one occasion I had to do three flushes, one each

night for three nights in a row, before the stone finally passed.

Blessings

Mama.

[Guest guest]

>>>at the same time we must not blindly favour this procedure against any

negative effects<<<

I apologise if I wrote my last post in such a rush that it was not understood. I

have 7 Home Educated children, one is just a young baby, and often I have to

type things in rather a rush.... I do not believe any of the long standing

members of this group " blindly favour " flushing as the be all and end all. As I

said in my post...

" Secondly, flushes are not the complete answer. You must detox and improve your

lifestyle ..... You must support your body to function correctly ie correcting

imbalances.... Flushing but continuing your previous lifestyle will not

work...... Thirdly, You must educate yourself so you are in a position to deal

with any problem that may arise. "

That's what this group is all about - Educating ourselves and sharing what we

have learned. Have I understood you correctly? Perhaps you could explain further

what you refer to when you say 'negative effects'

>>>Look, at the case of Tina, who has mentioned that she had never gb attacks,

which occurred only after doing flushes.<<<

I'm sorry the details of this escape me, I've been missing some posts lately

from all my groups so may not have received the post you are referring to.

However this statement could mean that flushing is stimulating the

liver/gallbladder to get rid of all the accumulated junk it has been storing. A

good thing I suggest. No?

>>>Where are strong claims of those people who say epsom salt resolves this

problem.<<<

I don't believe any longstanding member of this group has made this claim. It

has always been my understanding that we are on a journey not that we have

reached the end. There are many who believe that Epsom Salts help but I don't

recall anyone saying it will resolve the problem on it's own. Please be sure to

recognise that the posts made are the thoughts of the poster and not necessarily

indicative of the group as a whole, or even of any other person.

>>>If the bile ducts are opened with epsom salt, why it did not work in your

case.<<<

Why do you think it didn't? I wonder if for me the problem is that there is not

enough pressure created. This is why I have devised the double flush routine I

occasionally use. It may also be that there is a fair amount of sludge in there

that takes a bit of effort to push through or I may need to try another flush

recipe.

>>>What I mean to say, we on this board should be realistic and try to

investigate the real reasons.<<<

I contend that most of us are. What is it you think we are overlooking?

>>>Definitely those who have good results from this procedure are the happier

ones.<<<

Amen!

Most on this list have taken responsibility for our own health, educate

ourselves and make our own decisions. We are each travelling our own path and I

do not believe that the same things are going to work for each of us. We belong

to this group to bounce our ideas around, refine them and learn from each other.

I'm under no illusion that we have all the answers but I know that I'm a lot

happier and healthier than I have been in over 20 years and it feels GREAT! )

Blessings

Mama.

[Guest guest]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>..

The word " force " , I meant you were compelled to lie on

the operation table. Where are strong claims of those

people who say epsom salt resolves this problem. If

the bile ducts are opened with epsom salt, why it did

not work in your case. The human body chemistry should

be the same for each one of us. What I mean to say,

we on this board should be realistic and try to

investigate the real reasons. I would like to

reiterate again that I am not against lever flushes.

Definitely those who have good results from this

procedure are the happier ones.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I would like to note that Epsom Salts does not " open " the ducts. It causes the

cellular structure to soften and become more elastic. That is why bathing in it

causes the skin to feel silky smooth.

There is also a problem with individual human chemistry too. We are not all the

same in that respect. This is why some people will suffer from allergies and

other disease while others will not with certain chemical influence.

We are all the same in various potentials; we walk, talk, view, eat, etc, but

because of such things as emotion, chemical and physical differences there are

varied reactions. Just being of a particular nationality or sex can mean that

you are more likely to react to something differently than someone else. We all

have the same in potential but because of variations of the body's make up it

will respond differently to different influences for different people. This is

why a nutritionist or even a doctor needs to know how someone reacted to a

particular food or chemical to get to know the person's body probably better

than what that person living in side it does.

Flushing the liver isn't really causing anything more than a natural reaction to

the excess of oil being introduced into the body. But, that doesn't mean the

individual body will react as all others have to that induction nor does it

react the same every time it is done. Then too there are the various diffences

in the oils used. That is why the most naturally produced Extra Virgin Olive Oil

is requested because of its lack of chemical processing.

http://curezone.com/foods/olive_oil_for_health.htm

Then too the next thing I notice is that reading Tina's post she stated " I've

never had a gallbladder attack and I don't want to have one, but I need to be

proactive in dealing with this. " Even though she is dealing with a discomfort in

the right side she has not said she had a gallbladder attack. This could be a

liver situation or liver, gallbladder,and pancreas situation causing her the

discomfort. It's pretty hard to tell from a distance, and without a blood workup

and ultrasound it becomes even harder to tell. However by changing the daily

diet this could make a difference and give some insight as to what is happening.

If saturated fats and hydrogenated fats are avoided and the discomfort seems to

go away then there would be some pretty good indication the liver is over

burdened. If redueing the intake of sugars from such things as smoothies is done

then it would appear she needs to consider whether she is having a pancreatic

problem.

Dale

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

From: <khawakaqaiser@...>

<gallstones >

Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2004 2:24 AM

Subject: Re: Choices.

> Thank you for a very good and convincing reply from

> you. You certainly have a great knowledge.

>

> I would like to inform you of my problem. I am doing

> a study and have not done liver flush as yet.

>

> The problem started when I ate lot of nuts, may be

> quarter kilo. It started giving

> some discomfort to me on the right side under the

> ribs. I felt it is some sort of gas

> pressure, as it was causing belching also. While

> pressing on the right side, it caused

> belching. This pressure was so much that it was

> difficult for me to come to standing position from a

> sitting position, feel it more while driving the car

> on a bumpy road, difficulty to come to standing

> position from a sleeping position. Later on this

> discomfort was being felt on the left side under the

> ribs. I have a chronic problem of constipation from

> childhood. For this I underwent sigmoidoscopy, which

> stated everything normal. The constipation is in the

> sense not complete evacuation, though, daily there is

> little bit evacuation. This problem is long standing

> and I did not feel any discomfort due to it. Anyhow

> bloodwork was done which showed I am recovered case of

> HB. The ultrasound showed some 2-3 shadows of stones

> in gb. It showed pancreas complete normal, kidneys

> absolutely normal (no stones), fatty liver (Grade I),

> little bit enlarged in size. I also felt pain

> especially back ribs on the right and left side, which

> was creating difficult for my movement. Even by

> movement I feel the pain. This is irrelevant of

> taking any food or not. I met a famous professor of

> medicine. He told me that your stones are silent and

> this discomfort is due to your fatty lever and you

> have to reduce your weight. I am working on by daily

> exercises. My weight is 97 kgs and height 5-5. I

> would like to clarify that I don't have that severe

> pains which normally gb patients have.

>

> Presently, I feel discomfort on the right side and

> sometime left side and back pain on the right and left

> ribs on the back, which create problem in my movement.

> I believe this is all due to gas. There is too much

> gas gereration and it seems some sort of gas cylinder

> is fitted in my body. My x-ray shows also degerative

> bone disease at the back, but it has never given me

> problems in the past.

>

> I would like to have your opinion and input and of

> those other experienced members. I am sorry if

> somebody has misunderstood me on my previous posts,

> but, whatever I meant, my intention was an effort of

> fact-finding.

The episode you describe after eating the nuts was classic gall bladder

attack symptoms, to the letter. The physician you quote was also

essentially right but your gallbladder is patiently biting its tongue. The

two of you will have another discussion sooner or later unless you appease

its discomfort.

You have more immediate concerns. There is a rule in Chinese medicine

that even though all rules have exceptions, is a great one to live by...

" All disease starts in the gut. "

Your chronic constipation from childhood, the fact that you vacate a

small amount consistently, and your weight vs. height ratio indicate some

type of dysfunction in the alimentary ( notice the root is the same as

ailment, the Greeks where well aware of the connection) canal. May I

suggest a couple of things first before attempting to vacate the contents of

your gallbladder, but first a couple more considerations from your post.

While we go to a modern medical professional and have some type of

diagnostic test done, the results that we receive are of that which can be

detected through those particular means. So when we get a colonoscopy

(yours was a sigmoidoscopy which only checks maybe 6 inches of a 30 foot

tube), Have an ultrasound of the liver, kidneys, etc., blood workup, and the

determination is " normal " merely means " We cannot see what is wrong (if

anything). " . While you have not suffered discomfort from your " degenerative

bone disease " as of yet is a blessing though you can be sure that with any

degenerative condition that is neither arrested or reversed, you will.

Therefore part of your rib discomfort in the back may be this. For the

diagnostic reasoning above, same with your kidneys.

Two things to consider before a gallbladder flush: First and foremost,

just as you would not want to flush the toilet if the plumbing is clogged,

think about getting the canal clean and working smoothly. Second, spend

this same time softening and liquefying the contents of your gallbladder as

much as possible, it will lower risk, increase the degree of success, and

increase comfort.

Do you pass gas? Or just feel the pressure.

Always, in all ways, -Dave

[Guest guest]

You wrote >>>If the bile ducts are opened with epsom salt, why it did not work

in your case.<<<

I replied >>>Why do you think it didn't? <<<

It has been pointed out to me that this sentence of my previous post was not

finished. What I should have said was " Why do you think it didn't work? "

When I compare dealing with a bile duct obstruction using Epsom salts as part of

the regime both before and since the time I was hospitalised (when I followed

the specialists instructions which did not include ES) I am convinced that the

time it takes to clear an obstruction is markedly reduced when using ES .

I hope I am more easily understood now.

Blessings

Mama.

----- Original Message -----

From: Janne

gallstones

Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2004 11:32 PM

Subject: Re: Choices.

>>>at the same time we must not blindly favour this procedure against any

negative effects<<<

I apologise if I wrote my last post in such a rush that it was not understood.

I have 7 Home Educated children, one is just a young baby, and often I have to

type things in rather a rush.... I do not believe any of the long standing

members of this group " blindly favour " flushing as the be all and end all. As I

said in my post...

" Secondly, flushes are not the complete answer. You must detox and improve

your lifestyle ..... You must support your body to function correctly ie

correcting imbalances.... Flushing but continuing your previous lifestyle will

not work...... Thirdly, You must educate yourself so you are in a position to

deal with any problem that may arise. "

That's what this group is all about - Educating ourselves and sharing what we

have learned. Have I understood you correctly? Perhaps you could explain further

what you refer to when you say 'negative effects'

>>>Look, at the case of Tina, who has mentioned that she had never gb attacks,

which occurred only after doing flushes.<<<

I'm sorry the details of this escape me, I've been missing some posts lately

from all my groups so may not have received the post you are referring to.

However this statement could mean that flushing is stimulating the

liver/gallbladder to get rid of all the accumulated junk it has been storing. A

good thing I suggest. No?

>>>Where are strong claims of those people who say epsom salt resolves this

problem.<<<

I don't believe any longstanding member of this group has made this claim. It

has always been my understanding that we are on a journey not that we have

reached the end. There are many who believe that Epsom Salts help but I don't

recall anyone saying it will resolve the problem on it's own. Please be sure to

recognise that the posts made are the thoughts of the poster and not necessarily

indicative of the group as a whole, or even of any other person.

>>>If the bile ducts are opened with epsom salt, why it did not work in your

case.<<<

Why do you think it didn't? I wonder if for me the problem is that there is

not enough pressure created. This is why I have devised the double flush routine

I occasionally use. It may also be that there is a fair amount of sludge in

there that takes a bit of effort to push through or I may need to try another

flush recipe.

>>>What I mean to say, we on this board should be realistic and try to

investigate the real reasons.<<<

I contend that most of us are. What is it you think we are overlooking?

>>>Definitely those who have good results from this procedure are the happier

ones.<<<

Amen!

Most on this list have taken responsibility for our own health, educate

ourselves and make our own decisions. We are each travelling our own path and I

do not believe that the same things are going to work for each of us. We belong

to this group to bounce our ideas around, refine them and learn from each other.

I'm under no illusion that we have all the answers but I know that I'm a lot

happier and healthier than I have been in over 20 years and it feels GREAT! )

Blessings

Mama.

[Guest guest]

Dave

----- Original Message -----

From: <khawakaqaiser@...>

<gallstones >

Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2004 11:20 PM

Subject: Re: Choices.

>

> When constipation is there, gas is also stopped

Better to pass gas than not. One of the main gases is methane which is not

good for us to re-absorb. Puts a strain on the liver to detox. Activated

charcoal soaks up toxins beautifully. It is the stuff we put in water

filters, air filters, and God forbid cigarette filters. It will soak up

nutrients and expensive supplements just as readily too. Take as far away

from meals, supplements, etc. as possible to maximize benefit. General rule

for my clientele is to have the caps on the nightstand; if you get up in the

middle of the night take it then, if not, take it as you get out of bed and

then wait as long as possible before ingesting anything other than water.

to be

> expelled. When I get worried, I get severe

> constipation, it is called nervous constipation.

Smooth muscle relaxants and most are also anti anxiety, may be very helpful.

Wild cherry bark, apricot pit (bitter almond), Jamaican dogwood bark, cramp

bark, are all possible choices. There is a lot about magnesium here in the

group and the importance cannot be overlooked. Magnesium is the no. 1

mineral deficiency in the country. The main dietary source is leafy green

vegetables (Chlorophyll has a magnesium atom in the middle and hemoglobin

has iron, outside of that they are almost identical molecules.), which goes

to show how out of balance our diets tend to be. One third of all the heart

attacks coming into the emergency wards in one study were better handled

with a cheap magnesium drip than with cardiovascular stimulating drugs.

Magnesium does two pertinent things here. It is relaxing to smooth muscle

(so much though, that it is the main therapy used to stop premature labor)

and it brings water to the bowl (calcium draws away). In your case probably

the most essential part of your protocol. Anti-anxiety herbs may kill two

birds with one stone, Kava kava, Shank Pushpi, Valerian, or Skullcap ( a

Asian form where the root is used is a spectacular liver herb as well called

Baical skullcap: is also sedative to the liver. Not as anti-anxiety but

works well for the person who goes to sleep fine but wakes up for an hour to

hour and a half between 3;00am to 4;30 (liver).

> Firstly, I tried apples

the malic acid in such is very softening to gallstones.

, they worked very well. Now,

> they are not working. Then I started drinking lots of

> water, it helped a lot and I started going to toilet

> 2-3 times with full evacuation. Now, it seems that

> even after drinking lot of water, it gets dried up in

> the system somewhere and the stool are hard. I feel

> the pressure to go to toilet, but I pass out very

> little.

Magnesium, magnesium, magnesium.

Gas attacks mostly under the right ribs and

> sometime under the left ribs.

Cold, slow, digestion. All warming carminative herbs will help. The

premier is fennel seed, you can stop any gas with enough fennel. In extreme

cases you may need to go to fennel essential oil but most of the time not.

I forget to tell you

> yesterday that my lever enzymes blood work were also

> normal.

Wonderfull

Please advise the course of action.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

" in the alimentary ( notice the root is the same as

>ailment, the Greeks where well aware of the connection) canal " .

Aliment means food. Alimentary is food canal. I don't see why you

think the roots of alimentary and ailment are the same. One has the

root ali and the other ail.

[Guest guest]

Sorry, me and Archie do this all the time. An alimentary thought

though...Why do they call the muscles in the back of your calf the

gastrocnemius?

Dave

----- Original Message -----

From: " " <sbulmer@...>

<gallstones >

Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2004 3:00 PM

Subject: RE: Choices.

>

> " in the alimentary ( notice the root is the same as

> >ailment, the Greeks where well aware of the connection) canal " .

>

> Aliment means food. Alimentary is food canal. I don't see why you

> think the roots of alimentary and ailment are the same. One has the

> root ali and the other ail.

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Learn more from our experience, over 7.000 liver flush stories:

> http://curezone.com/forums/fd50.asp?f=4

> http://curezone.com/forums/fd50.asp?f=80

> http://curezone.com/forums/fd50.asp?f=100

> http://curezone.com/forums/fd50.asp?f=112

>

> Liver Cleanse Recipe: http://CureZone.com/cleanse/liver/

>

> Liver Flush FAQ: http://curezone.com/forums/f.asp?f=73

>

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>

[Guest guest]

I don't know, I've never heard of gastrocnemius.

>-----Original Message-----

>From: Dave Shelden [mailto:wholehealthawareness@...]

>Sent: December 27, 2004 3:18 PM

>gallstones

>Subject: Re: Choices.

>

>

>Sorry, me and Archie do this all the time. An alimentary thought

>though...Why do they call the muscles in the back of your calf the

>gastrocnemius?

>Dave

>

>

>----- Original Message -----

>From: " " <sbulmer@...>

><gallstones >

>Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2004 3:00 PM

>Subject: RE: Choices.

>

>

>>

>> " in the alimentary ( notice the root is the same as

>> >ailment, the Greeks where well aware of the connection) canal " .

>>

>> Aliment means food. Alimentary is food canal. I don't see why you

>> think the roots of alimentary and ailment are the same. One has the

>> root ali and the other ail.

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> Learn more from our experience, over 7.000 liver flush stories:

>> http://curezone.com/forums/fd50.asp?f=4

>> http://curezone.com/forums/fd50.asp?f=80

>> http://curezone.com/forums/fd50.asp?f=100

>> http://curezone.com/forums/fd50.asp?f=112

>>

>> Liver Cleanse Recipe: http://CureZone.com/cleanse/liver/

>>

>> Liver Flush FAQ: http://curezone.com/forums/f.asp?f=73

>>

>> Images:

>> http://CureZone.com/image_gallery/cleanse_flush/

>> http://CureZone.com/image_gallery/intrahepatic_stones/

>>

>> To unsubscribe, send blank e-mail to:

>> gallstones-unsubscribe and then reply to confirmation

>> message!

>>

>> To Post message: gallstones

>> Subscribe: gallstones-subscribe

>>

>> Web Sites for more information:

>> http://CureZone.org

>> http://www.liverdoctor.com/

>> http://www.sensiblehealth.com/

>> http://www.cyberpog.com/health/index.htm

>> http://www.relfe.com/gall_stone_cleanse.html

>> http://www.cleansingorsurgery.com/

>>

>> Group page: gallstones

>>

>> To change your subscription to digest send blank e-mail to:

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hold

>> yourself FULLY responsible FOR yourself!

>> Have a nice day !

>>

>>

>>