Re: The ostrich approach... [kill the bad guys?]

[Guest guest]

Hi aelewis,

Wow! This brings up a topic for another list Vinnie Pinto and

the Raw Animal Foods (RAF) folks have some very interesting and good

points. The key to their whole premise from the referenced thread

is:

" To start off in the RAF diet, search out and find food sources that

you can trust. The red meat should be grass-fed, organic with no

grain finishing if possible. Eggs should be fertile and the hens

range fed (they are omnivores not just grain eaters). Fish should be

deep sea and chosen from those that traditionally have less mercury.

[when I say " bacteria " I'm also referring to fungi, viruses, and

parasites] Raw, fresh foods (even vegetables) all come with their

own bacteria in and on them. This bacteria is natural and

beneficial to us - the eaters. "

So just for everyone's edification, they are not talking about food

from the corner grocery store eaten raw.

Now, that said, I think that the most important thing for our bodies

is to clean up the pollutants out of them and nourish our cells with

the best cleanest foods, water, and air. This means keep the

pollutants out of our homes, our food and our water. Our bodies

will take care of the impurities we inadvertently put into it up to

a point. Modern lifestyle has pushed most bodies far past that

point and we are too polluted to fight the onslaught of bad stuff

like viruses, bacteria, parasites, and mycoplasms... That's where

liver and gall flushing comes in. I wouldn't recommend anyone to

just flush the liver and stop there in trying to maximize their

health. There's too many fronts in this war against ill health and

disease. Theoretically, if we started out with clean bodies and good

foods every day we wouldn't have to worry about the bad guys because

our body would take care of them. In practice I believe that it's a

good idea to get rid of toxic metals, chemicals, and waste products

of the bad guys while simultaneously cleaning the elimination

pathways (liver, kidneys, bowel, etc...). Parasite cleansing goes

hand in hand with these efforts. Parasites leave their own waste

products including metals, bacteria, viruses, mycoplasms, etc...

Raw foods of any type (clean and pure) help the body with the

enzymes and nutrients to keep us strong and healthy. Whether a

person is vegitarian or not, raw foods make sence.

Vince

>

> > Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 19:06:58 -0000

> > From: " Will Winter " <holistic@v...>

> > Subject: The ostrich approach to parasites--- O ye of little

faith...

> [.....]

> > For those who think parasites are the machinations of

> > fearmongers, the ignorant and the simpleminded, I think you

> > are in for a rude awakening. And soon.

>

> I wonder.

>

>

> > Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 03:10:39 -0000

> > From: " Vince Richter " <new_man85@h...>

> > Subject: Re: The ostrich approach to parasites--- O ye of little

faith...

> [.....]

> > Dr. 's premise is that all disease can be cured by cleaning

the

> > body of toxins and killing the parasites which produce more

toxins

> > if left alone. The parasites are opportunistic and thrive in an

> > unhealthy body environment.

>

> Yes. And they might have a purpose, as long as that environment

> is unhealthy.

>

> What I am wondering is: Is the " kill-the-bad-guys! " paradigm

> as useful as we've been led to suppose? It certainly does have

> SOME good use -- e.g. in people with infections so bad that

> they threaten life. But is the paradigm universally applicable,

> under all circumstances, in all people in all states of health?

>

> I don't know. But for another point of view, here is a thread

> from the Raw Animal and Vegetable Food and Live Food lists:

>

>

>

> RAV-Food/message/1722

[Guest guest]

> Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 19:06:58 -0000

> From: " Will Winter " <holistic@...>

> Subject: The ostrich approach to parasites--- O ye of little faith...

[.....]

> For those who think parasites are the machinations of

> fearmongers, the ignorant and the simpleminded, I think you

> are in for a rude awakening. And soon.

I wonder.

> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 03:10:39 -0000

> From: " Vince Richter " <new_man85@...>

> Subject: Re: The ostrich approach to parasites--- O ye of little faith...

[.....]

> Dr. 's premise is that all disease can be cured by cleaning the

> body of toxins and killing the parasites which produce more toxins

> if left alone. The parasites are opportunistic and thrive in an

> unhealthy body environment.

Yes. And they might have a purpose, as long as that environment

is unhealthy.

What I am wondering is: Is the " kill-the-bad-guys! " paradigm

as useful as we've been led to suppose? It certainly does have

SOME good use -- e.g. in people with infections so bad that

they threaten life. But is the paradigm universally applicable,

under all circumstances, in all people in all states of health?

I don't know. But for another point of view, here is a thread

from the Raw Animal and Vegetable Food and Live Food lists:

RAV-Food/message/1722

From: Theta Sigma <thetasig@c...>

Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 1:07 pm

Subject: Re: [RAV-Food] Newbie seeks guidlines for safe RAF prep/consumption

Hi Sleighteem -

The idea that uncooked food is somehow innately " dangerous " or

" unhealthy " and needs to be " prepared " (cooked) is just a

bunch of propaganda that has been presented (at least here in

the U.S.) for decades and still continues to bombard us. The

concept is mostly based on Pasteur's life work (the germ

theory, i.e., antibiotics, etc.) which he recanted on his

death bed - and he instead embraced and agreed with his friend

Antoine Beauchamp's alternate theory that the environment or

ecology of the blood (and the body) is what defends us from

disease. We on this list tend to lean toward Beauchamp's

concept. The diet we follow is designed to change the body

environment for the better.

I'll be brief. Please check out the archives of the e-mail

group for past discussions - that will help you come up to

speed (and also consider joining the PrimalDiet group for

their extensive archives and lively debates). To start off in

the RAF diet, search out and find food sources that you can

trust. The red meat should be grass-fed, organic with no grain

finishing if possible. Eggs should be fertile and the hens

range fed (they are omnivores not just grain eaters). Fish

should be deep sea and chosen from those that traditionally

have less mercury. [when I say " bacteria " I'm also referring

to fungi, viruses, and parasites] Raw, fresh foods (even

vegetables) all come with their own bacteria in and on them.

This bacteria is natural and beneficial to us - the eaters.

Humans also have their own bacteria that is natural to us and

beneficial for us (hence the ages old idea that using soap

kills billions of normal skin bacteria that we should not be

killing).

The bacteria in our fresh, raw foods has a vested stake in

keeping the food territory free of invading pathogens and

these beneficial " critters " actively kill out most

interlopers. Raw milk is a perfect example of this in action -

the milk sours naturally and can be drunk even after it has

separated into curds and whey (I've had milk and goat yogurt

in the fridge for over 4 months and it is still edible though

sour). But pasteurized milk can easily go " bad " with

pathogenic bacteria and then can't be drunk without risk of

infection. It is notable, for example, that all of the

reported illnesses from milk over the years were from

pasteurized milk - not raw milk. Most of us on this list also

understand that cooked foods lose their active enzymes and

most of their live bacteria and so are at risk for developing

pathogenic growths - even in the freezer - and aren't as

nutritious as uncooked foods. Don't underestimate the value

and power of natural enzymes for healing.

The senses of smell and taste are invaluable instincts to

cultivate and train. (more on that in archives)

When one first starts on raw food it can take a bit of time

for the body to accustom itself to the new flora being

presented to it. So start off with small amounts of the raw

diet combined with the " normal " foods and increase the

percentage of raw over time (anywhere from a month or so to a

few months depending on the person). It is somewhat common for

slight loosening of the stools, and other minor symptoms,

etc., as the body adjusts.

Additionally we use the term " healing crisis " to refer to what

we used to call " sickness " - you know - viruses and flu,

bacterial infections, strep, staph, skin rash, diarrhea,

headache, etc. These symptoms are examples of the body

cleaning itself out (removing toxins from body tissue). So we

do tend to embrace these " crises " and help them continue

rather than using antibiotics and such to squelch the symptoms

- which push toxins farther back into the deep body tissues

(my bout with pneumonia was easily handled by eating raw,

unheated honey often). After some time the crises come less

often and with less strength as we gain our health back.

Feel free to ask and question - we are all here to help others

and ourselves as well.

Regards,

-=mark=-

thesleighteem wrote:

>Hi.

>

>Would like to begin experimenting with RAF, but risk of food-borne

>illness compels me to reach out to the experienced for as much

>insight as possible. Is there a guideline hiding in the archive?

>Or on a website? I've already read one reference to hydrogen

>peroxide, but nothing more. Please steer me in the right direction.

>

>Thanks!

>

>Sleighteem

----------------------

clipped from: live-food

<live-food >

From: " The Sleighteem " <sleighteem@...>

Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 23:50:20 -0600

Subject: [live-food] RAF prep: No precautions? All of you? I'm so surprised.

Hi. Gosh, you are all such brave souls! Perhaps your immune

systems are unique. I've been felled by nasty bugs too often

to throw caution to the wind now. Perhaps I have no future in

RAF. That would be sad. I was so excited about a new,

positive chapter in my life. Is it back to the relative

safety of RVF? Say it ain't so! Thanks, just the same, for

your responses.

Sleighteem

----------------------

live-food

From: Vinny Pinto <vinny@...>

Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 04:52:32 -0500

Subject: Re: [live-food] RAF prep: No precautions? All of you? I'm

so surprised.

Hi Sleighteem:

This is interesting. Please advise further about exactly what

it is you fear with raw meats/fish. Is it " parasites " ? Is it

bacteria " ? Is it yeasts? Is it archaea? Is it viruses? Is it

prion-specific pathognes, such as BSE/CJD?

Do you fear this about raw meat? About raw fish? About raw dairy?

with care, --Vinny

----------------------

<live-food >

From: " tonio epstein " <tonio@...>

Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 09:11:18 -0500

Subject: Re: [live-food] RAF prep: No precautions? All of you? I'm so

surprised.

Dear Sleighteem, Perhaps all you really need is another

perspective on these so called " nasty bugs " . Remember it is

usually ignorance that breeds fear. Not always, but often.

What you call " nasty " may only be based on misinformed fear.

Our bodies already contain all sorts of " beneficial " and

" nasty " " bugs " microbes, parasites, viruses, bacteria, ...

many have learned to coexist in symbiotic harmony. Even our

immune system exists and functions properly due to the many

different colonies of microorganisms in our guts. " Good " and

" bad " bugs all have their place and function in the complex

soup that is our body.

E coli and salmonella are to be welcomed and cherished and

understood for what they are. Then you need not fear them like

the boogeyman.

Do some sincere research into this area and I think you will

be well rewarded with new and broader perspectives and

understanding of these things.

We are not brave. Maybe we were at first to take the initial

leap, but more likely we were more curious and foolhardy than

brave. Read Aajonus Vonderplanitz, Karl what's his name, and

whoever you can come across who is brave enough to speak out

honesty on this taboo topic. Even the ineffeble, inbsable,

incorrigable Vinny Pinto is well worth reading on this topic

if you can slog your way through the archives and find his

websites

Remember Herbie the Lovebug? Well, there you go. Love your

bugs. Nastiness is in the mind of the believer.

Tonio

----------------------

live-food

From: skydanse2@...

Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 14:20:38 -0000

Subject: [live-food] Re: RAF prep: No precautions? All of you? I'm so

surprised.

No, we are not unique -- you've just been brainwashed by the

western way of thinking. I just read " The Curse of Louis

Pasteur " by

You need to change your thinking -- you're probably deficient

from beneficial bacteria -- I have been (or was) immune

compromised for years (decades even) and now I eat raw meat,

raw dairy with no problem. Those lovely little bacteria I

get from eating like this is what's keeping me well these

days. I never get sick anymore and I used to be chronically

ill.

The thing to do is to build up gradually if you're that

concerned. Buy a steak, cut a little piece off of it before

you grill it, and make it two pieces next time and go from

there. You'll also find that raw meat digests a whole lot

easier as well.

Lori

----------------------

live-food

From: micheal sunanda <michealspun@...>

Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 17:19:16 -0800 (PST)

Subject: [live-food] Microfobia = germ fear theory.

aloha tonio epstein & Sleighteem & all

i agree here that " nasty bugs " germs ain't the enemy to blame

for ills we've been brainwashed by Big $cience medicine to

believe their 'germ theory' is the cause of disease. I call

it Microfobia - fear of germs now pandemic in Big $cienc

cultures, fearing mother natures raw energy, thus weak immune

systems, seems alergic go many things. So epidemics of

colds-flu are common during & after the pig-out seasons of

over eating junk foods Halloween thru February, with not enuf

exersize, eating for pleasure, all comfortably numb from being

indoors for months & years. Those winter ills are body

natural responce to toxins, working to eliminate them thru

mucus releasing or worse pain of we fear sweating, snot,

spitting, tearing, etc. The so-called bad bacteria thrive on

the hi-acid -nk we eat, working for detoxing with fever,

sweating, mucusing & releasing stress of all kinds.

Microfobia is great for chemo-industry illusions of killing

microbes with treatments & making people well to pig on junk

again, needing another chemokill fix for $$$. Microfobia is

behind/within the whole santitation industry, health

departments, alopathic (all pathetic) medicine, cleaners,

deoderants; touch & kiss fobias. Pasteur was wrong,

misinterpreting the results of his many experiements about

causeffects of disease & any cures of them. Pasteurizatioin

is another food-killing denaturing living foods into

toxic-dairy causing acidosis. Thats why microfobia & ecofobia

don't/can't prevent ills they don't know causes of now. I've

been learning & explaining Microfobia & Ecofobia for 15 years,

loss of natural instincts in civilized folks, as instincts

also missing in Psychology, anthropology, medicine &

criminology based on behavior mod in empire brainwashing

schools. YES we need different vision of causeffects of

disease & organic health with real natural instincts working

to feel needs & choose healing sources of energy in food,

fluids & places we live, work & play in. Medical ecology

tries to define & cure allergies, but misses instincts &

natural elimination are guiding forces within us, we regain

vitality by naturalizing our whole lives, not just organic

foods. gaia grunting love micheal

sunanda

----------------------

live-food

From: " Grace Carr " <fifteenthousandgiggles@...>

Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 21:25:05 +0000

Subject: RE: [live-food] Digest Number 1932

The basic concept is

1) bacteria, fungi, virus and parasites are beneficial. they

assist in the breaking down of toxins and dead cells. an

example: termites will not infest a strong, healthy tree.

when a tree is weak or damaged, nature employs termites to

break down the weak and damaged tissue into a form that is

useable by some other part of the ecosystem. the same is true

with your body. it employs viruses, bacteria, fungi and

parasites to break down weak or damaged tissue.

2) drugs are like bombs. we take them to kill " germs " , but for

every germ that is killed, millions of healthy cells are

killed or damaged. that is why drugs cause side effects.

also, when the " germs " are no longer available to break down

toxins and dead cells, so these collect in our body. these

toxins inhibit normal body functioning, and symptoms of

disease appear.

3) raw fats dissolve and bind with toxins so they may be

removed from the body. they also lubricate and provide the

most efficient form of energy

4) the protien from raw meat (red meats, fish and fowl) are

necessary for the proper re-generation of tissue. All raw

meats help with the regeneration of every type of cell, but

particular types are better for different types of cellular

regeneration:

red meat: glandular tissue, blood and muscle

fowl: connective tissue, nerves, lymph and skin

fish and other seafood: nerves and brain

_____________________________________________________________________