Re: Does Apple Cider REALLY soften gallstones???

[Guest guest]

Thanks to all who have been giving me information about APPLES (and now

BEETS) regarding the passage of stones. I've gotten several private e-mails

too, and I hope more of you will chip in. I will forward (anonomyously) any

pertinent e-mail details.

I wanted to clarify to several people here that I'm not a " doubting "

demanding " scientific " tests or that I'm asking you " prove " anything to me.

Never. Being a recovering scientist myself I know the true roots of modern

$cience. plus I know that most experimentation is outcome-based and not

scientific at all. We design experiments and trim data to match our

preconceived expectations. A sad and cruel joke really.

I just wanted to know how it all got started that we could state emphatically

that cider literally softens gallstones. Perhaps I should rephrase my APPLE

QUERIES as follows:

1) If we don't know the stone-softening mechanism why don't we just say

apple cider makes the stones pass more easily? Isn't that all that matters?

2) Wouldn't it be better to take pure malic acid or apple cider vinegar (ACV)? I

mean, good cider does taste good but after a while all that sugar drives you

crazy.

3) Why don't we all just take ACV EVERY DAY?

4) And, if we do take ACV, how much and when? Can you make it taste better

without ruining the effect?

nie Applejuice

[Guest guest]

Will, sorry it has taken so much time to respond to this post. When you

asked about the research I realized that I could not remember seeing any and

needed to go to my resources to take a look. I cannot give you any and

checked through many texts. Interesting that the Naturopathic literature is

conspicuously lacking to scientific reference; Most likely because the

school of thought has evolved into a scientific knowledge only paradigm.

Here goes and I will explain its use in traditional healing methods as we

go.

----- Original Message -----

From: " Will Winter " <holistic@...>

<gallstones >

Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 3:18 PM

Subject: Does Apple Cider REALLY " soften gallstones " ???

>

> I know " An apple a day keeps the doctor away " but ever since I've been

> reading posts on this group (and in related references) I keep hearing

> about

> Apple Cider and Malic Acid " SOFTENING GALLSTONES... " . Seems like some

> of the testimonials I read have the person sipping a bit of cider for a

> day or so

> and, POOF!, their stones are soft and more ready for passage. HOW CAN

> THIS BE? I believe in most of the things said here, but I have a real hard

> time

> with this one.

>

> Here are the questions I have about this theory:

> 1) Do we REALLY know this works or is it part of our " generally-accepted

> concepts " ?

Gallbladder problems have been around for thousands of years and because of

this all the traditional healing philosophies have ways of dealing with

them, and may I add most of the time very successfully. You will find

reference in European, Ayurvedic, Unani, TCM. of the use of apples, pears,

and similar fruits for this issue dating back hundreds of years. So I

maintain that the answer to both of the above questions is an emphatic yes.

Science and medicine have only scratched the surface of the complexities of

the human body and much that is " known " has yet to be put to the rigors of

scientific evaluation. In this particular instance I think that the lack of

research is from the appearance on the face of a lack of need. More below.

> 2) If it's been " proven " , who did the scientific research on this? Any

> citations?

None

> 3) If it softens gallstones, why not continue softening until they

> dissolve

> 100%?

No need #1, lack of time #2. The contents of the gallbladder only need be

soften/dissolved/diluted to the point that the contents can pass safely. It

would take years (ursodiol a bile acid is capable of dissolving the stones

completely, typical treatment is measured in months and years).

> 4) Exactly how much time, or how much cider, until the stones are soft?

As long as you have time and patience for.

> 5) If you eat food while taking in the malic acid, will you still get the

> softening

> effect?

Yes, but the digestive process, assimilation, transportation and all the

chemical reactions along the way will vary the effect.

> 6) Exactly how does the malic acid soften the stones?

80% of all stones in America are a combination variety mostly having to do

with the balance of cholesterol, bile acids, and lecithin. When the

concentration of cholesterol goes up in relation to the other two it does

not stay emulsified and in suspension within the aqueous fluid, coagulating

and forming stones. I am assuming that the malic acid increases the bile

acid component thereby " softening " .

> 7) Does it soften liver stones AND GB stones equally?

Similar issues, therefore most likely appropriate.

> 8) Why not take Apple Cider Vinegar for a stronger effect?

Apple cider vinegar is high in acetic acid produced as metabolic waste

product by the yeast. I am not sure as to its effect on bile acids. If it

is malic acid in particular you just would not be able to get the amount.

Dr. Jarvis wrote the book on apple cider vinegar, " Folk Medicine " touting

its many benefits.

> 9) What would be the effect of taking Malic Acid tablets on a regular

> basis?

I know several people who have used it quite sucessfully because of their

diabetes and the sugar issue with apples. Would not recommend anyone take a

concentrated acid long term for prophylactic reasons, only therapeutically.

> 10) Can you get the same effects from eating apples?

Definitely so and you get the fiber which binds both cholesterol and

deoxycholic acid (formed by bacteria in the gut) which greatly reduces the

solubility of cholesterol in the gallbladder.

Hope this helps. -Dave

>

> Thanks, all information appreciated,

>

> Will

>

>

>

>

>

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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Will,

Here is an interesting write-up on apple cider vinegar:

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0GCU/is_n6_v14/ai_20152545

Though the article concludes that ACV is not a valuable healing tonic, my

question is this....if such theorists as Hulda contend that parasites are

the root cause of gall stones and many vinegars have long been used for their

antibacterial/antiparasitic properties (balsamic vinegar was widely used during

the bubonic plague to ward it off), then might this be one of its advantages?

Just wondering....

Peace, n

[Guest guest]

Thanks n. Interesting to note the purported benefits of the " mother of

vinegar " in the article. Remember the kombucha tea craze of the mid 90's?

Same stuff, different medium. Used in Japan for hundreds of years. While

the article concludes that it is of little value because there is no proof,

this again is an instance where the baby has been thrown out with the

bathwater (fermented in this case. The conclusion that there is no value

because there is no science is the " ignorant arrogance " of science. Truly

believe that Dr. Mendelssohn was right in his book " Confessions of a medical

heretic " when he said that " Medicine is not a science in this country... it

is a religion. "

Dave

----- Original Message -----

From: <momazmat@...>

<gallstones >

Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 10:42 AM

Subject: Re: Does Apple Cider REALLY " soften gallstones " ???

> Hi Will,

>

> Here is an interesting write-up on apple cider vinegar:

>

> http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0GCU/is_n6_v14/ai_20152545

>

> Though the article concludes that ACV is not a valuable healing tonic, my

> question is this....if such theorists as Hulda contend that

> parasites are

> the root cause of gall stones and many vinegars have long been used for

> their

> antibacterial/antiparasitic properties (balsamic vinegar was widely used

> during

> the bubonic plague to ward it off), then might this be one of its

> advantages?

>

>

> Just wondering....

>

> Peace, n

>

>

>