Re: new to group and need advice

[Guest guest]

I think in many school districts you have to have a diagnosis of

" classic autism " to get the increased access to services. Many school

districts consider PDD an excuse to not provide much and since PDD is

" on the spectrum " they view ASD the same way. I think in general the

autism diagnosis will increase your availability of services but that

isn't necessarily true if the child is labeled ASD instead of simply

Autistic. School systems do see a difference between those labels and

the delivery of services demonstrate that.

My friends son is autistic. Their experience went this direction as

well. Child was labeled PDD. Got basic services. Child was diagnosed

as ASD. No change in services, no change in his " category " even with

multiple attempts by the parent. This past year a neurologist labeled

child as " classic autism " . My friend about fell over in the next IEP

meeting when the person leading the meeting opened up by saying " so

what is the maximum amount of services we can give this little boy " .

The floodgates of services opened because he was labeled " autistic "

and not ASD. This changed his category within the system and opened up

other services. None of this occurred with the ASD diagnosis. I think

many school systems see ASD as equivalent to PDD-NOS.

Kris

On Aug 4, 2006, at 8:39 AM, tera wrote:

> Leila,

>

> Since I'm in the same boat as you, I'll put in my 2 cents. We just

> went through the evaluation with our local school district and we'd

> been doing EI for the past year. My son will be 3 in September. I

> don't get the results of his evaluation until Sept 7 but they gave me

> some info on ASD as I walked out the door so that is what I am

> expecting. The more I read, the more I realize that the Austism

> Spectrum is huge. My son is interactive and affectionate too. But he's

> got a serious language delay, sensory and behavior issues and has a

> really hard time transitioning from one activity to another (unless he

> wants to!)

>

> From the little I've learned so far, it seems like there are at least

> 100 things they look for when diagnosing autism and no child has all

> of them. They look at all of these individual characteristics and

> behaviors and then determine if your child fits on the autism

> spectrum. But it is a spectrum - there isn't one form of autism. You

> can have 100 differnent kids diagnosed with ASD and they are all

> autistic but how it presents in each one can be dramatically

> different.

>

> But, in the grand scheme of things, even if you don't necessarily

> agree with an ASD diagnosis, I've been told by numerious people that

> it is better to accept that diagnosis and move forward with it. I

> don't know where you live, but here, kids who get the ASD diagnosis

> have 2-3 times the access to services as kids with other diagnosises.

>

> So from my perspective, if they want to label my son as " martian " if

> that get him more services, I'm okay with it. So even though an

> austism diagnosis is extremely devastating to hear it can be an

> important tool in helping your son. Don't reject it outright. And

> remember that even with an ASD diagnosis, he's the same kid today he

> was a week ago and you'll love him just the same. But now he has

> access to services to help him be the kid that he has the potential to

> be.

>

> :-)Tera

>

> " It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought

> without accepting it " .

>

> ----- Original Message ----

> From: leilajindra ljindra@...

>

> I have a son named Ozzie. He is just over 3 and he has had a speech

> delay for a while. He went through EI and is now going to start

> preschool through the school system in the fall. When he went in for

> his 3 yr. apt. with his dr. I asked should I be trying to figure out

> why he is not talking? He has been in speech therapy and shown little

> improvement. She told me she thought he might be verbal apraxic and

> told me to go see a developmentalist with him. I looked up apraxia on

> the internet and found the Cherub foundation web site. When I read

> Tanner's story it was like I was reading Ozzie's. I just took Ozzie to

> see the developmentalist today and left there with a diagnosis of

> Autistic Spectrum Disorder. Should I get a second opinion? He does

> have sensory and behavioral issues, but he is very affectionate and

> loving. I'm not sure what to do. I brought up apraxia with the dr. but

> she felt that since he had the other issues ASD was a better

> diagnosis. Any advice?

>

> Leila

>

[Guest guest]

Many of the kids here are in the same situation. I think there

needs to be a new diagnosis -- opposite of autism. I've been a

member for only a few months -- and I belive the common theme with

many of the kids here seem to be:

Verbal delay -- inconsistent speech patterns

A large % have digestive issues (brain/gut connection is HUGE)

A large % are very " engaged " . Loving, lots of eye contact -- none

of the " typical " autism symptoms

Many have some type of sensory issues

Some have been diagnosed ASD -- and some have not. The key on the

diagnosis is exactly that -- if it helps you get the services you

need -- great. The only problem that some have seen with the

diagnosis is that it may tend to place a child in the wrong pigeon

whole. The important part of that is -- that there shouldn't be

pigeon holes!!! I'm finding a GREAT deal of difference based upon

the SLP, Dr., school system, etc.

I have gained a tremendous amount of knowledge here -- PLUS -- it

helps so much to know that I'm not alone! There's so much help out

there for ASD kids -- but our kids need to be heard too!

>

> I have a son named Ozzie. He is just over 3 and he has had a

speech

> delay for a while. He went through EI and is now going to start

> preschool through the school system in the fall. When he went in

for

> his 3 yr. apt. with his dr. I asked should I be trying to figure

out

> why he is not talking? He has been in speech therapy and shown

little

> improvement. She told me she thought he might be verbal apraxic

and

> told me to go see a developmentalist with him. I looked up apraxia

on

> the internet and found the Cherub foundation web site. When I read

> Tanner's story it was like I was reading Ozzie's. I just took

Ozzie to

> see the developmentalist today and left there with a diagnosis of

> Autistic Spectrum Disorder. Should I get a second opinion? He does

> have sensory and behavioral issues, but he is very affectionate

and

> loving. I'm not sure what to do. I brought up apraxia with the dr.

but

> she felt that since he had the other issues ASD was a better

> diagnosis. Any advice?

>

> Leila

>

[Guest guest]

mary- i wonder if the doc felt your child was getting the services that you

feel your child needs? I WOULD SAY THAT IF YOU ARE SATISFIED WITH THE SERVICES

YOU ARE RECEIVING AND CONVEYED THAT TO YOUR DOC THEN IT WAS ENTIRELY

APPROPRIATE TO RESPOND THAT WAY.I do want to emphasize that the treatment you

are

receiving may be different depending on the diagnosis and that is where the

concern comes in. My son who has apraxia among other issues requires intense 1

on 1 therapy with an slp and occupational therapy for sensory integration

disorder. Many years ago he presented as anti social due to his inability to

hear

appropriately due to massive ear infections and uncommunicative due to his

inability to speak. I just wonder if you are questioning your doctars

response? Are you getting the positive reinforcement and support that you feel

you

need to obtain services for your child? This group is here to support you. My

own son has gone from being 24% intelligible to 78% intelligible but I know we

still have along way to go. It is hard for him to talk sometimes and other

kids his age do not quite know how to respond and have asked their parents

what is wrong. We are working on mainstreaming him into a kindergarten

classroom

this fall. josh has come along way quickly .Please write to me on or off the

list anytime- charlotte henry

[Guest guest]

PLEASE LOOK INTO THE VERY SPECIFIC CATGORIZING FOR AUTISM. THEIR IS SPECIFIC

TESTING BY A PSYCHOLOGIST AND YOU CAN FIND THE SPECIFICS ON THE COMPUTER-

AUTISM AND PDD AND ASD ARE NOT THE SAME THING. YOU CAN HAVE SOME BUT NOT ALL

OF THE CHARACTERISTICS AND GET THE ASD OR PDD DIAGNOSIS, MAKE SURE THAT IF YOU

WANT YOUR CHILD TESTED IT IS DONE BY A REPUTABLE PSYCHOLOGIST AND PLEASE

KEEP IN MIND THAT SOME DIAGNOSIS CAN CHANGE. THIS BOARD HAS HAD ALOT OF

DISCUSSION WITH THIS ISSUE IN THE PAST WHICH ALSO INCLUDED ME AND SOMETIMES YOU

CAN

GET MORE SERVICES DEPENDING ON THE DIAGNOSIS BUT PLEASE DONT THROW ALL YOUR

EGGS IN ONE BASKET (in my case that was with the school board who thought my

son was getting enough speech services at 1 unit a week and were later amazed

at the progress he made after receiving private services) I AM PLEASED AT

THE RESPONSE I HEARD FROM THE PERSON WHOS SCHOOL ASKED HOW MANY SERVICES THEY

COULD PROVIDE and that is the response I WOULD HAVE LIKED TO HAVE HEARD BUT ALL

SCHOOLS ARE NOT THE SAME AND AS PARENTS WE WANT TO DO EVERYTHING POSSIBLE

FOR OUR CHILDREN. I DO NOT BELIEVE THERE IS ANY SUCH THING AS TOO MUCH THERAPY

AND THE APRAXIC DOES NOT LEARN SPEECH IN THE CONVENTIONAL WAY . They do not

learn simply spontaneously and by repetition because they have a motor

planning disorder. That is the difference. IT IS A BIG DIFFERENCE.I hope you

will

read everything you can get your hands on, belong to as many support groups as

you would like and get the support you feel you need to understand the

issues involved. charlotte henry

[Guest guest]

Pam, Thanks so much for your response and welcome. We live in

Brunswick, Ohio which is near Cleveland. I just feel like I'm not

sure what I am supposed to do next. The doctor gave me so many

resources and groups to join and I just feel a little overwhelmed. I

wish she would have said, go home, do this first and this second. I

feel like my head is spinning. This group is helping. Thanks.

Leila

>

> Hi Leila,

>

> First, welcome to this group. You'll find it to be a great source

of

> information and support to you and your family.

>

> Our son is now four, and was diagnosed with both apraxia

and autism

> at around age two. While it is not uncommon for children to have

both

> disorders, apraxia often is a stand along diagnosis, and there are

many

> folks on this board for whom that is the case. Since not as many

> professionals are familiar with apraxia, and there are

similarities with how

> it presents to an unfamiliar eye, a lot of kids are misdiagnosed.

But also

> know that many children on the autism spectrum are extremely

loving and

> affectionate -- in fact most of the children at the school my son

attends

> for children with autism are literal cuddlebunnies with their

teachers and

> families.

>

> I would definitely take your son for a second opinion with a

developmental

> pediatrician (MD). In our case, we had our son screened with the

county so

> we could receive services, and also went to see two docs to be

sure.

> Everyone agreed, including the two SLPs he sees. But the good

news is with

> good, frequent therapy, your son should make wonderful strides in

his speech

> and behavior. And if he has not shown improvement with his

current speech

> therapist, please switch. Don't make the mistake I did when we

first

> started therapy and stay with an ineffective therapist too long.

>

> Where do you live? Someone on the board may be able to recommend

some good

> professionals in your area.

>

> Best of luck to you.

>

> Pam O'Connor

> [ ] New to group and need advice

>

>

> I have a son named Ozzie. He is just over 3 and he has had a

speech

> delay for a while. He went through EI and is now going to start

> preschool through the school system in the fall. When he went in

for

> his 3 yr. apt. with his dr. I asked should I be trying to figure

out

> why he is not talking? He has been in speech therapy and shown

little

> improvement. She told me she thought he might be verbal apraxic

and

> told me to go see a developmentalist with him. I looked up

apraxia on

> the internet and found the Cherub foundation web site. When I

read

> Tanner's story it was like I was reading Ozzie's. I just took

Ozzie to

> see the developmentalist today and left there with a diagnosis of

> Autistic Spectrum Disorder. Should I get a second opinion? He

does

> have sensory and behavioral issues, but he is very affectionate

and

> loving. I'm not sure what to do. I brought up apraxia with the

dr. but

> she felt that since he had the other issues ASD was a better

> diagnosis. Any advice?

>

> Leila

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Pam, Thanks so much for your response and welcome. We live in

Brunswick, Ohio which is near Cleveland. I just feel like I'm not

sure what I am supposed to do next. The doctor gave me so many

resources and groups to join and I just feel a little overwhelmed. I

wish she would have said, go home, do this first and this second. I

feel like my head is spinning. This group is helping. Thanks.

Leila

>

> Hi Leila,

>

> First, welcome to this group. You'll find it to be a great source

of

> information and support to you and your family.

>

> Our son is now four, and was diagnosed with both apraxia

and autism

> at around age two. While it is not uncommon for children to have

both

> disorders, apraxia often is a stand along diagnosis, and there are

many

> folks on this board for whom that is the case. Since not as many

> professionals are familiar with apraxia, and there are

similarities with how

> it presents to an unfamiliar eye, a lot of kids are misdiagnosed.

But also

> know that many children on the autism spectrum are extremely

loving and

> affectionate -- in fact most of the children at the school my son

attends

> for children with autism are literal cuddlebunnies with their

teachers and

> families.

>

> I would definitely take your son for a second opinion with a

developmental

> pediatrician (MD). In our case, we had our son screened with the

county so

> we could receive services, and also went to see two docs to be

sure.

> Everyone agreed, including the two SLPs he sees. But the good

news is with

> good, frequent therapy, your son should make wonderful strides in

his speech

> and behavior. And if he has not shown improvement with his

current speech

> therapist, please switch. Don't make the mistake I did when we

first

> started therapy and stay with an ineffective therapist too long.

>

> Where do you live? Someone on the board may be able to recommend

some good

> professionals in your area.

>

> Best of luck to you.

>

> Pam O'Connor

> [ ] New to group and need advice

>

>

> I have a son named Ozzie. He is just over 3 and he has had a

speech

> delay for a while. He went through EI and is now going to start

> preschool through the school system in the fall. When he went in

for

> his 3 yr. apt. with his dr. I asked should I be trying to figure

out

> why he is not talking? He has been in speech therapy and shown

little

> improvement. She told me she thought he might be verbal apraxic

and

> told me to go see a developmentalist with him. I looked up

apraxia on

> the internet and found the Cherub foundation web site. When I

read

> Tanner's story it was like I was reading Ozzie's. I just took

Ozzie to

> see the developmentalist today and left there with a diagnosis of

> Autistic Spectrum Disorder. Should I get a second opinion? He

does

> have sensory and behavioral issues, but he is very affectionate

and

> loving. I'm not sure what to do. I brought up apraxia with the

dr. but

> she felt that since he had the other issues ASD was a better

> diagnosis. Any advice?

>

> Leila

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Kris,

Thanks! I will keep that in mind when I go to the meeting.

:-)Tera

" It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without

accepting it " .

Re: [ ] New to group and need advice

I think in many school districts you have to have a diagnosis of

" classic autism " to get the increased access to services. Many school

districts consider PDD an excuse to not provide much and since PDD is

" on the spectrum " they view ASD the same way. I think in general the

autism diagnosis will increase your availability of services but that

isn't necessarily true if the child is labeled ASD instead of simply

Autistic. School systems do see a difference between those labels and

the delivery of services demonstrate that.

My friends son is autistic. Their experience went this direction as

well. Child was labeled PDD. Got basic services. Child was diagnosed

as ASD. No change in services, no change in his " category " even with

multiple attempts by the parent. This past year a neurologist labeled

child as " classic autism " . My friend about fell over in the next IEP

meeting when the person leading the meeting opened up by saying " so

what is the maximum amount of services we can give this little boy " .

The floodgates of services opened because he was labeled " autistic "

and not ASD. This changed his category within the system and opened up

other services. None of this occurred with the ASD diagnosis. I think

many school systems see ASD as equivalent to PDD-NOS.

Kris

On Aug 4, 2006, at 8:39 AM, tera wrote:

> Leila,

>

> Since I'm in the same boat as you, I'll put in my 2 cents. We just

> went through the evaluation with our local school district and we'd

> been doing EI for the past year. My son will be 3 in September. I

> don't get the results of his evaluation until Sept 7 but they gave me

> some info on ASD as I walked out the door so that is what I am

> expecting. The more I read, the more I realize that the Austism

> Spectrum is huge. My son is interactive and affectionate too. But he's

> got a serious language delay, sensory and behavior issues and has a

> really hard time transitioning from one activity to another (unless he

> wants to!)

>

> From the little I've learned so far, it seems like there are at least

> 100 things they look for when diagnosing autism and no child has all

> of them. They look at all of these individual characteristics and

> behaviors and then determine if your child fits on the autism

> spectrum. But it is a spectrum - there isn't one form of autism. You

> can have 100 differnent kids diagnosed with ASD and they are all

> autistic but how it presents in each one can be dramatically

> different.

>

> But, in the grand scheme of things, even if you don't necessarily

> agree with an ASD diagnosis, I've been told by numerious people that

> it is better to accept that diagnosis and move forward with it. I

> don't know where you live, but here, kids who get the ASD diagnosis

> have 2-3 times the access to services as kids with other diagnosises.

>

> So from my perspective, if they want to label my son as " martian " if

> that get him more services, I'm okay with it. So even though an

> austism diagnosis is extremely devastating to hear it can be an

> important tool in helping your son. Don't reject it outright. And

> remember that even with an ASD diagnosis, he's the same kid today he

> was a week ago and you'll love him just the same. But now he has

> access to services to help him be the kid that he has the potential to

> be.

>

> :-)Tera

>

> " It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought

> without accepting it " .

>

> ----- Original Message ----

> From: leilajindra ljindraadelphia (DOT) net

>

> I have a son named Ozzie. He is just over 3 and he has had a speech

> delay for a while. He went through EI and is now going to start

> preschool through the school system in the fall. When he went in for

> his 3 yr. apt. with his dr. I asked should I be trying to figure out

> why he is not talking? He has been in speech therapy and shown little

> improvement. She told me she thought he might be verbal apraxic and

> told me to go see a developmentalist with him. I looked up apraxia on

> the internet and found the Cherub foundation web site. When I read

> Tanner's story it was like I was reading Ozzie's. I just took Ozzie to

> see the developmentalist today and left there with a diagnosis of

> Autistic Spectrum Disorder. Should I get a second opinion? He does

> have sensory and behavioral issues, but he is very affectionate and

> loving. I'm not sure what to do. I brought up apraxia with the dr. but

> she felt that since he had the other issues ASD was a better

> diagnosis. Any advice?

>

> Leila

>

[Guest guest]

Leila,

Since I'm in the same boat as you, I'll put in my 2 cents. We just went through

the evaluation with our local school district and we'd been doing EI for the

past year. My son will be 3 in September. I don't get the results of his

evaluation until Sept 7 but they gave me some info on ASD as I walked out the

door so that is what I am expecting. The more I read, the more I realize that

the Austism Spectrum is huge. My son is interactive and affectionate too. But

he's got a serious language delay, sensory and behavior issues and has a really

hard time transitioning from one activity to another (unless he wants to!)

From the little I've learned so far, it seems like there are at least 100 things

they look for when diagnosing autism and no child has all of them. They look at

all of these individual characteristics and behaviors and then determine if your

child fits on the autism spectrum. But it is a spectrum - there isn't one form

of autism. You can have 100 differnent kids diagnosed with ASD and they are all

autistic but how it presents in each one can be dramatically different.

But, in the grand scheme of things, even if you don't necessarily agree with an

ASD diagnosis, I've been told by numerious people that it is better to accept

that diagnosis and move forward with it. I don't know where you live, but here,

kids who get the ASD diagnosis have 2-3 times the access to services as kids

with other diagnosises.

So from my perspective, if they want to label my son as " martian " if that get

him more services, I'm okay with it. So even though an austism diagnosis is

extremely devastating to hear it can be an important tool in helping your son.

Don't reject it outright. And remember that even with an ASD diagnosis, he's

the same kid today he was a week ago and you'll love him just the same. But now

he has access to services to help him be the kid that he has the potential to

be.

:-)Tera

" It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without

accepting it " .

----- Original Message ----

From: leilajindra ljindra@...

I have a son named Ozzie. He is just over 3 and he has had a speech

delay for a while. He went through EI and is now going to start

preschool through the school system in the fall. When he went in for

his 3 yr. apt. with his dr. I asked should I be trying to figure out

why he is not talking? He has been in speech therapy and shown little

improvement. She told me she thought he might be verbal apraxic and

told me to go see a developmentalist with him. I looked up apraxia on

the internet and found the Cherub foundation web site. When I read

Tanner's story it was like I was reading Ozzie's. I just took Ozzie to

see the developmentalist today and left there with a diagnosis of

Autistic Spectrum Disorder. Should I get a second opinion? He does

have sensory and behavioral issues, but he is very affectionate and

loving. I'm not sure what to do. I brought up apraxia with the dr. but

she felt that since he had the other issues ASD was a better

diagnosis. Any advice?

Leila

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[Guest guest]

Based on my experience with my daughter (diagnosed with both ASD and

apraxia at age 2), the biomedical and therapy approaches that worked

to address her autism symptoms also cured her apraxia. Many kids with

ASD have digestive issues - there are now at least two well-known pedi

gastroenterologists who work solely with children with autism because

of the high frequency of problems. Instead of focusing on whether or

not your child has autism, or " just " apraxia, I think it's more

valuable to focus on learning about what has worked for children with

ASD and seeing if it could help your kid. I don't know how many of you

have done nutritional analysis (and organic acids) and immune function

testing on your kids, but I would not be surprised to see a lot of

overlap in medical issues with autism and apraxia.

I guess I'm starting to sound like a broken record, but lack of

affection and lack of eye contact are NOT diagnostic criteria for

autism or PDD. My son with ASD is one of the most affectionate, loving

children I have ever known. He just has a very loving nature. He is

also very interested in playing with other children - he is not

withdrawn socially (though he doesn't always interact appropriately).

And he also has ASD.

> >

> > I have a son named Ozzie. He is just over 3 and he has had a

> speech

> > delay for a while. He went through EI and is now going to start

> > preschool through the school system in the fall. When he went in

> for

> > his 3 yr. apt. with his dr. I asked should I be trying to figure

> out

> > why he is not talking? He has been in speech therapy and shown

> little

> > improvement. She told me she thought he might be verbal apraxic

> and

> > told me to go see a developmentalist with him. I looked up apraxia

> on

> > the internet and found the Cherub foundation web site. When I read

> > Tanner's story it was like I was reading Ozzie's. I just took

> Ozzie to

> > see the developmentalist today and left there with a diagnosis of

> > Autistic Spectrum Disorder. Should I get a second opinion? He does

> > have sensory and behavioral issues, but he is very affectionate

> and

> > loving. I'm not sure what to do. I brought up apraxia with the dr.

> but

> > she felt that since he had the other issues ASD was a better

> > diagnosis. Any advice?

> >

> > Leila

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I agree there are many overlaps today of apraxia and mild

autism today in both diagnosis and issues such as digestive ones

that even some " experts " mainly in the apraxia circle don't

acknowledge...for example constipation. But where I disagree is

I believe there 'are' clear differances. A child can have one/both or something

else. And in order to secure appropriate therapies you need to know which.

Quite frankly the diagnosis of autism has morphed so

much in such a short time that I don't know what it means...and your

emails make it even more confusing for me.

The way we have separated autism from apraxia is social...and now

you say that's not a divider either?

The original children diagnosed years ago as having " childhood

schizophrenia " previous to the diagnosis called autism which was

what it was referred to back when -when they grew up were

indistinguishable from adult schizophrenics. Of course all of those

individuals diagnosed with childhood schizophrenia may have been

schizophrenics -but the point is that is where autism had it's

roots -not in children that presented normally but were " just " late

talkers.

" This is due to the fact that up until recently, very little has

been known about individuals with autism, and they were lumped

together into the category of mental retardation, or placed in

institutions (from 1800-1938, it was referred to as childhood

schizophrenia). "

http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/biology/b103/f00/web1/obaray.html

I've met many children with PDD or autism and to me it's clear it's

different then apraxia. But I've also met children diagnosed as

possible PDD/mild autism and to me some just present apraxic. In

fact when those children are taken for second opinions -it's learned that the

child was

misdiagnosed -hey...it happens....more than you want to know.

And for those of us that watched the movie that originally put

autism on the map for society -Rainman -that showed autism had

nothing to do with a speech impairment at that point. Then again

that presentation of autism was not typical since it showed autism

together with Savant Syndrome.

But here are some examples from that movie that stuck in our

memories as what " autism " was then:

" At a restaurant, a waitress (played by Bonnie Hunt) is slightly

puzzled when says her name and home phone number. He had

read and memorized up to the letter G — halfway through G — in the

residential directory of a phone book the previous night. Charlie is

able to convince the waitress that means well, and she seems

slightly impressed. Later, the waitress drops a box of toothpicks,

spilling its contents, prompting to instantly calculate the

number of toothpicks on the floor (246). Charlie thinks his brother

is wrong (since the box is a 250-count size), until the waitress

says that four of the toothpicks remained in the box.

constantly repeats the " Who's on First? " routine when

Charlie is upset with him. This annoys Charlie, especially since

does not understand the punchline and his repetition of it

strips it of its comic meaning.

shows echolalic tendencies when he does his impression of a

line said by a D.J. all morning, much to Charlie's annoyance.

At a small town (filmed in Guthrie, Oklahoma) intersection

controlled by a stoplight, stops in the middle of a

crosswalk after the " Don't Walk " light begins flashing, causing

traffic to back up and angering motorists. Charlie frantically

guides across the sidewalk as one of them approaches

in a threatening manner.

As they are traveling down a rural road, reminds Charlie

that The People's Court is about to start. With no towns in sight,

Charlie is forced to ask a local resident to allow his brother to

watch TV. He poses as a representative from a television ratings

survey firm, but the cover is blown as a very anxious begins

peeking in the windows and worrying that he'll miss " Judge Wapner, "

forcing Charlie to explain the situation. The woman reluctantly

relents and allows the brothers inside.

Stopping at a motel for the night, Charlie hears muttering

the phrase " funny rain man. " Charlie realizes that, as a toddler, he

tried to say '' but it came out 'Rain Man,' to which he

responds, " You're the Rain Man? " produces a photo of two-

year-old Charlie and thirteen-year-old , revealing that he

was Charlie's supposedly imaginary friend. As Charlie draws water

for a bath, has a panic attack, screaming, " Hot water burn

baby, " suggesting that almost burned his infant brother in

scalding water, and this is why he was sent to the Walbrook

Institution, although it was more likely that the father found

himself unable to look after following the death of the

mother ( mentioned that he was sent to Walbrook a few days

after his mother's death). "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rain_Man

If you are saying you have a child with autism that is social and

affectionate and is (was?) apraxic but is now cured ...do you accept

the possibility that your child was misdiagnosed as both autistic

and apraxic?

I don't believe apraxia as we know it today is curable 100% by any

means we know of yet. I'm sure your child is speaking fine now, but

why wasn't he before? Could be many reasons outside of apraxia.

Simple speech delays resolve for example even without therapy.

We know what the autism definition is for medical professionals from

years ago to how it's morphed since. Here's one history brief:

http://www.autism-resources.com/autismfaq-hist.html

What to you is the definition of autism? And what percentage of the

population fits the criteria of autistic based on your definition?

(estimate)

=====

[Guest guest]

Let's check the DSM criteria for Autism.

Autistic Disorder 299.00 can be reviewed right here:

http://www.autism-biomed.org/dsm-iv.htm

If you continue to scroll down you can see that PDD 299.80 and

Asperger's have their DSM criteria listed as well.

You'll note that eye contact can be a deciding factor for autism.

That social skills ARE a dividing line. The fact that the child must

have 2 of the symptoms under the first heading show that a social child

would find it nearly impossible to meet these criteria.

So, according to the DSM lack of eye contact IS a diagnositic criteria.

Some may not like to hear it or accept it but the DSM is what is used

as the diagnostic standard. The criteria for all three note a severe

impairment of reciprocal social interaction. Again, some may not like

to hear it but that is the diagnostic criteria. Because a child does

not fit this picture but is labeled ASD is an issue between the

parent, the child and the healthcare provider that made the diagnosis.

Discuss the discrepancies you note in your child vs. the child's

diagnosis with the one who labeled him/her. But comments such as

those given on previous posts are muddying the waters and possibly

promoting an attitude of fearfulness when the information presented

isn't correct. I think it is very important for each of us to know

each and every criteria under these labels so that when one is

presented we know whether or not it fits our child. Not based on our

gut, knee jerk reaction but based on the actual diagnostic criteria.

I'll get off my soapbox now.

Kris

Lac

On Aug 4, 2006, at 3:42 PM, maryebe wrote:

> Based on my experience with my daughter (diagnosed with both ASD and

> apraxia at age 2), the biomedical and therapy approaches that worked

> to address her autism symptoms also cured her apraxia. Many kids with

> ASD have digestive issues - there are now at least two well-known pedi

> gastroenterologists who work solely with children with autism because

> of the high frequency of problems. Instead of focusing on whether or

> not your child has autism, or " just " apraxia, I think it's more

> valuable to focus on learning about what has worked for children with

> ASD and seeing if it could help your kid. I don't know how many of you

> have done nutritional analysis (and organic acids) and immune function

> testing on your kids, but I would not be surprised to see a lot of

> overlap in medical issues with autism and apraxia.

>

> I guess I'm starting to sound like a broken record, but lack of

> affection and lack of eye contact are NOT diagnostic criteria for

> autism or PDD. My son with ASD is one of the most affectionate, loving

> children I have ever known. He just has a very loving nature. He is

> also very interested in playing with other children - he is not

> withdrawn socially (though he doesn't always interact appropriately).

> And he also has ASD.

>

>

[Guest guest]

I think in many school districts you have to have a diagnosis of

" classic autism " to get the increased access to services. Many school

districts consider PDD an excuse to not provide much and since PDD is

" on the spectrum " they view ASD the same way. I think in general the

autism diagnosis will increase your availability of services but that

isn't necessarily true if the child is labeled ASD instead of simply

Autistic. School systems do see a difference between those labels and

the delivery of services demonstrate that.

My friends son is autistic. Their experience went this direction as

well. Child was labeled PDD. Got basic services. Child was diagnosed

as ASD. No change in services, no change in his " category " even with

multiple attempts by the parent. This past year a neurologist labeled

child as " classic autism " . My friend about fell over in the next IEP

meeting when the person leading the meeting opened up by saying " so

what is the maximum amount of services we can give this little boy " .

The floodgates of services opened because he was labeled " autistic "

and not ASD. This changed his category within the system and opened up

other services. None of this occurred with the ASD diagnosis. I think

many school systems see ASD as equivalent to PDD-NOS.

Kris

On Aug 4, 2006, at 8:39 AM, tera wrote:

> Leila,

>

> Since I'm in the same boat as you, I'll put in my 2 cents. We just

> went through the evaluation with our local school district and we'd

> been doing EI for the past year. My son will be 3 in September. I

> don't get the results of his evaluation until Sept 7 but they gave me

> some info on ASD as I walked out the door so that is what I am

> expecting. The more I read, the more I realize that the Austism

> Spectrum is huge. My son is interactive and affectionate too. But he's

> got a serious language delay, sensory and behavior issues and has a

> really hard time transitioning from one activity to another (unless he

> wants to!)

>

> From the little I've learned so far, it seems like there are at least

> 100 things they look for when diagnosing autism and no child has all

> of them. They look at all of these individual characteristics and

> behaviors and then determine if your child fits on the autism

> spectrum. But it is a spectrum - there isn't one form of autism. You

> can have 100 differnent kids diagnosed with ASD and they are all

> autistic but how it presents in each one can be dramatically

> different.

>

> But, in the grand scheme of things, even if you don't necessarily

> agree with an ASD diagnosis, I've been told by numerious people that

> it is better to accept that diagnosis and move forward with it. I

> don't know where you live, but here, kids who get the ASD diagnosis

> have 2-3 times the access to services as kids with other diagnosises.

>

> So from my perspective, if they want to label my son as " martian " if

> that get him more services, I'm okay with it. So even though an

> austism diagnosis is extremely devastating to hear it can be an

> important tool in helping your son. Don't reject it outright. And

> remember that even with an ASD diagnosis, he's the same kid today he

> was a week ago and you'll love him just the same. But now he has

> access to services to help him be the kid that he has the potential to

> be.

>

> :-)Tera

>

> " It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought

> without accepting it " .

>

> ----- Original Message ----

> From: leilajindra ljindra@...

>

> I have a son named Ozzie. He is just over 3 and he has had a speech

> delay for a while. He went through EI and is now going to start

> preschool through the school system in the fall. When he went in for

> his 3 yr. apt. with his dr. I asked should I be trying to figure out

> why he is not talking? He has been in speech therapy and shown little

> improvement. She told me she thought he might be verbal apraxic and

> told me to go see a developmentalist with him. I looked up apraxia on

> the internet and found the Cherub foundation web site. When I read

> Tanner's story it was like I was reading Ozzie's. I just took Ozzie to

> see the developmentalist today and left there with a diagnosis of

> Autistic Spectrum Disorder. Should I get a second opinion? He does

> have sensory and behavioral issues, but he is very affectionate and

> loving. I'm not sure what to do. I brought up apraxia with the dr. but

> she felt that since he had the other issues ASD was a better

> diagnosis. Any advice?

>

> Leila

>

[Guest guest]

Many of the kids here are in the same situation. I think there

needs to be a new diagnosis -- opposite of autism. I've been a

member for only a few months -- and I belive the common theme with

many of the kids here seem to be:

Verbal delay -- inconsistent speech patterns

A large % have digestive issues (brain/gut connection is HUGE)

A large % are very " engaged " . Loving, lots of eye contact -- none

of the " typical " autism symptoms

Many have some type of sensory issues

Some have been diagnosed ASD -- and some have not. The key on the

diagnosis is exactly that -- if it helps you get the services you

need -- great. The only problem that some have seen with the

diagnosis is that it may tend to place a child in the wrong pigeon

whole. The important part of that is -- that there shouldn't be

pigeon holes!!! I'm finding a GREAT deal of difference based upon

the SLP, Dr., school system, etc.

I have gained a tremendous amount of knowledge here -- PLUS -- it

helps so much to know that I'm not alone! There's so much help out

there for ASD kids -- but our kids need to be heard too!

>

> I have a son named Ozzie. He is just over 3 and he has had a

speech

> delay for a while. He went through EI and is now going to start

> preschool through the school system in the fall. When he went in

for

> his 3 yr. apt. with his dr. I asked should I be trying to figure

out

> why he is not talking? He has been in speech therapy and shown

little

> improvement. She told me she thought he might be verbal apraxic

and

> told me to go see a developmentalist with him. I looked up apraxia

on

> the internet and found the Cherub foundation web site. When I read

> Tanner's story it was like I was reading Ozzie's. I just took

Ozzie to

> see the developmentalist today and left there with a diagnosis of

> Autistic Spectrum Disorder. Should I get a second opinion? He does

> have sensory and behavioral issues, but he is very affectionate

and

> loving. I'm not sure what to do. I brought up apraxia with the dr.

but

> she felt that since he had the other issues ASD was a better

> diagnosis. Any advice?

>

> Leila

>

[Guest guest]

Kris it's not that simple. If you read the following archives

you'll see that the DSM was never meant to be a check list. Clip

from the following archives:

" For those professionals in this group please speak with

Martha Herbert, MD, Ph.D. pediatric neurologist.

Dr. Herbert

http://neuro-oas.mgh.harvard.edu/childneurology/bios/herbert.html

and I had a discussion about this once and she told me that the

diagnostic criteria for autism was never meant to be diagnostic

criteria -it was meant to be a list of symptoms that typically can

accompany a child with autism. Now that would have made more sense! "

Also 's correct in that there 'could' be reasons for lack of eye

contact while trying to talk if a child has an impairment of

speech. And not that this was brought up but due to frustration

children can lash out, or withdraw. Most of us learn as we go what

we are dealing with regardless of what our child is " diagnosed "

with. Very few once on EFAs present as classic apraxic or autistic

(thank goodness) but they still require therapies in most cases -

just different goals. Those that are apraxic and not on EFAs are

still working on learning to talk and be understood -while those on

EFAs are learning how to talk as fast as they want in long complex

thoughts and blend into the norm. That appears to be my son

Tanner's goal anyway -it's what he strives for. (and we'll continue

to help him achieve it)

~~~~~~~~~~~~start of archives

Re: Conversation/Answering Question Delays

Hi !

Who hasn't seen this who has a child in this group that is learning

to talk?

This really doesn't apply only to nonautistic children -it can

happen in any child that has apraxia -stuttering -or many other

speech

and/or language impairments -including those children with autism

who have

underlying apraxia etc. It can

therefore happen for a number of reasons too. Is it that the child

(who wants

to answer)

is hesitating due to cognitive delays or more likely motor planning -

or is it due to fear of failing when trying to talk? Also most

apraxic children

have good eye contact -but not 'while' talking -they are many times

working so

hard on just getting the words out they don't have good eye contact

during this

time.

For the most part -when comfortable, confident and rested the child

with a

speech and/or language impairment

will talk more -and talk better than when they are stressed,

insecure and tired.

When a stranger asks a question -the more they concentrate on

wanting to answer -and answer right -the harder it is. The extreme

is words don't come out -and less extreme but just as uncomfortable

is

answering -but the answer is unintelligible or not exactly what they

wanted to say.

As a child grows older this is one of the strategies they can be

taught -how to answer otheres, including strangers, and be

comfortable doing it.

There will always be situations where they break down -as they get

older they are required to use words that are even complex for

the " normal " speaker in school, etc. -but if a child grows up with a

healthy self esteem -they will learn to roll with it and not feel

badly about themselves when they can't keep up verbally in

situations such as these. Goodness knows however that most of the

world is not based in complex thought or language -so for the most

part our children will be able to blend long enough to keep working

on building stronger models to get to more complex language. It's

something you can work on and practice with your child with puppets

(start simple like this -and point out to them the models in these

basic

questions -they can basically repeat back what was asked of them!)

" What's your name? "

" Tanner what's your name? "

" How are you? "

" I'm fine how are you? "

" Nice to meet you! "

" Nice to meet you too! "

Down the road you can work on more complex thoughts/conversations

such as

" So what are your philosophical views on Dan Brown's new book The Da

Vinci Code? "

=====

[Guest guest]

mary- i wonder if the doc felt your child was getting the services that you

feel your child needs? I WOULD SAY THAT IF YOU ARE SATISFIED WITH THE SERVICES

YOU ARE RECEIVING AND CONVEYED THAT TO YOUR DOC THEN IT WAS ENTIRELY

APPROPRIATE TO RESPOND THAT WAY.I do want to emphasize that the treatment you

are

receiving may be different depending on the diagnosis and that is where the

concern comes in. My son who has apraxia among other issues requires intense 1

on 1 therapy with an slp and occupational therapy for sensory integration

disorder. Many years ago he presented as anti social due to his inability to

hear

appropriately due to massive ear infections and uncommunicative due to his

inability to speak. I just wonder if you are questioning your doctars

response? Are you getting the positive reinforcement and support that you feel

you

need to obtain services for your child? This group is here to support you. My

own son has gone from being 24% intelligible to 78% intelligible but I know we

still have along way to go. It is hard for him to talk sometimes and other

kids his age do not quite know how to respond and have asked their parents

what is wrong. We are working on mainstreaming him into a kindergarten

classroom

this fall. josh has come along way quickly .Please write to me on or off the

list anytime- charlotte henry

[Guest guest]

PLEASE LOOK INTO THE VERY SPECIFIC CATGORIZING FOR AUTISM. THEIR IS SPECIFIC

TESTING BY A PSYCHOLOGIST AND YOU CAN FIND THE SPECIFICS ON THE COMPUTER-

AUTISM AND PDD AND ASD ARE NOT THE SAME THING. YOU CAN HAVE SOME BUT NOT ALL

OF THE CHARACTERISTICS AND GET THE ASD OR PDD DIAGNOSIS, MAKE SURE THAT IF YOU

WANT YOUR CHILD TESTED IT IS DONE BY A REPUTABLE PSYCHOLOGIST AND PLEASE

KEEP IN MIND THAT SOME DIAGNOSIS CAN CHANGE. THIS BOARD HAS HAD ALOT OF

DISCUSSION WITH THIS ISSUE IN THE PAST WHICH ALSO INCLUDED ME AND SOMETIMES YOU

CAN

GET MORE SERVICES DEPENDING ON THE DIAGNOSIS BUT PLEASE DONT THROW ALL YOUR

EGGS IN ONE BASKET (in my case that was with the school board who thought my

son was getting enough speech services at 1 unit a week and were later amazed

at the progress he made after receiving private services) I AM PLEASED AT

THE RESPONSE I HEARD FROM THE PERSON WHOS SCHOOL ASKED HOW MANY SERVICES THEY

COULD PROVIDE and that is the response I WOULD HAVE LIKED TO HAVE HEARD BUT ALL

SCHOOLS ARE NOT THE SAME AND AS PARENTS WE WANT TO DO EVERYTHING POSSIBLE

FOR OUR CHILDREN. I DO NOT BELIEVE THERE IS ANY SUCH THING AS TOO MUCH THERAPY

AND THE APRAXIC DOES NOT LEARN SPEECH IN THE CONVENTIONAL WAY . They do not

learn simply spontaneously and by repetition because they have a motor

planning disorder. That is the difference. IT IS A BIG DIFFERENCE.I hope you

will

read everything you can get your hands on, belong to as many support groups as

you would like and get the support you feel you need to understand the

issues involved. charlotte henry

[Guest guest]

Kris,

Thanks! I will keep that in mind when I go to the meeting.

:-)Tera

" It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without

accepting it " .

Re: [ ] New to group and need advice

I think in many school districts you have to have a diagnosis of

" classic autism " to get the increased access to services. Many school

districts consider PDD an excuse to not provide much and since PDD is

" on the spectrum " they view ASD the same way. I think in general the

autism diagnosis will increase your availability of services but that

isn't necessarily true if the child is labeled ASD instead of simply

Autistic. School systems do see a difference between those labels and

the delivery of services demonstrate that.

My friends son is autistic. Their experience went this direction as

well. Child was labeled PDD. Got basic services. Child was diagnosed

as ASD. No change in services, no change in his " category " even with

multiple attempts by the parent. This past year a neurologist labeled

child as " classic autism " . My friend about fell over in the next IEP

meeting when the person leading the meeting opened up by saying " so

what is the maximum amount of services we can give this little boy " .

The floodgates of services opened because he was labeled " autistic "

and not ASD. This changed his category within the system and opened up

other services. None of this occurred with the ASD diagnosis. I think

many school systems see ASD as equivalent to PDD-NOS.

Kris

On Aug 4, 2006, at 8:39 AM, tera wrote:

> Leila,

>

> Since I'm in the same boat as you, I'll put in my 2 cents. We just

> went through the evaluation with our local school district and we'd

> been doing EI for the past year. My son will be 3 in September. I

> don't get the results of his evaluation until Sept 7 but they gave me

> some info on ASD as I walked out the door so that is what I am

> expecting. The more I read, the more I realize that the Austism

> Spectrum is huge. My son is interactive and affectionate too. But he's

> got a serious language delay, sensory and behavior issues and has a

> really hard time transitioning from one activity to another (unless he

> wants to!)

>

> From the little I've learned so far, it seems like there are at least

> 100 things they look for when diagnosing autism and no child has all

> of them. They look at all of these individual characteristics and

> behaviors and then determine if your child fits on the autism

> spectrum. But it is a spectrum - there isn't one form of autism. You

> can have 100 differnent kids diagnosed with ASD and they are all

> autistic but how it presents in each one can be dramatically

> different.

>

> But, in the grand scheme of things, even if you don't necessarily

> agree with an ASD diagnosis, I've been told by numerious people that

> it is better to accept that diagnosis and move forward with it. I

> don't know where you live, but here, kids who get the ASD diagnosis

> have 2-3 times the access to services as kids with other diagnosises.

>

> So from my perspective, if they want to label my son as " martian " if

> that get him more services, I'm okay with it. So even though an

> austism diagnosis is extremely devastating to hear it can be an

> important tool in helping your son. Don't reject it outright. And

> remember that even with an ASD diagnosis, he's the same kid today he

> was a week ago and you'll love him just the same. But now he has

> access to services to help him be the kid that he has the potential to

> be.

>

> :-)Tera

>

> " It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought

> without accepting it " .

>

> ----- Original Message ----

> From: leilajindra ljindraadelphia (DOT) net

>

> I have a son named Ozzie. He is just over 3 and he has had a speech

> delay for a while. He went through EI and is now going to start

> preschool through the school system in the fall. When he went in for

> his 3 yr. apt. with his dr. I asked should I be trying to figure out

> why he is not talking? He has been in speech therapy and shown little

> improvement. She told me she thought he might be verbal apraxic and

> told me to go see a developmentalist with him. I looked up apraxia on

> the internet and found the Cherub foundation web site. When I read

> Tanner's story it was like I was reading Ozzie's. I just took Ozzie to

> see the developmentalist today and left there with a diagnosis of

> Autistic Spectrum Disorder. Should I get a second opinion? He does

> have sensory and behavioral issues, but he is very affectionate and

> loving. I'm not sure what to do. I brought up apraxia with the dr. but

> she felt that since he had the other issues ASD was a better

> diagnosis. Any advice?

>

> Leila

>

[Guest guest]

Based on my experience with my daughter (diagnosed with both ASD and

apraxia at age 2), the biomedical and therapy approaches that worked

to address her autism symptoms also cured her apraxia. Many kids with

ASD have digestive issues - there are now at least two well-known pedi

gastroenterologists who work solely with children with autism because

of the high frequency of problems. Instead of focusing on whether or

not your child has autism, or " just " apraxia, I think it's more

valuable to focus on learning about what has worked for children with

ASD and seeing if it could help your kid. I don't know how many of you

have done nutritional analysis (and organic acids) and immune function

testing on your kids, but I would not be surprised to see a lot of

overlap in medical issues with autism and apraxia.

I guess I'm starting to sound like a broken record, but lack of

affection and lack of eye contact are NOT diagnostic criteria for

autism or PDD. My son with ASD is one of the most affectionate, loving

children I have ever known. He just has a very loving nature. He is

also very interested in playing with other children - he is not

withdrawn socially (though he doesn't always interact appropriately).

And he also has ASD.

> >

> > I have a son named Ozzie. He is just over 3 and he has had a

> speech

> > delay for a while. He went through EI and is now going to start

> > preschool through the school system in the fall. When he went in

> for

> > his 3 yr. apt. with his dr. I asked should I be trying to figure

> out

> > why he is not talking? He has been in speech therapy and shown

> little

> > improvement. She told me she thought he might be verbal apraxic

> and

> > told me to go see a developmentalist with him. I looked up apraxia

> on

> > the internet and found the Cherub foundation web site. When I read

> > Tanner's story it was like I was reading Ozzie's. I just took

> Ozzie to

> > see the developmentalist today and left there with a diagnosis of

> > Autistic Spectrum Disorder. Should I get a second opinion? He does

> > have sensory and behavioral issues, but he is very affectionate

> and

> > loving. I'm not sure what to do. I brought up apraxia with the dr.

> but

> > she felt that since he had the other issues ASD was a better

> > diagnosis. Any advice?

> >

> > Leila

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I agree there are many overlaps today of apraxia and mild

autism today in both diagnosis and issues such as digestive ones

that even some " experts " mainly in the apraxia circle don't

acknowledge...for example constipation. But where I disagree is

I believe there 'are' clear differances. A child can have one/both or something

else. And in order to secure appropriate therapies you need to know which.

Quite frankly the diagnosis of autism has morphed so

much in such a short time that I don't know what it means...and your

emails make it even more confusing for me.

The way we have separated autism from apraxia is social...and now

you say that's not a divider either?

The original children diagnosed years ago as having " childhood

schizophrenia " previous to the diagnosis called autism which was

what it was referred to back when -when they grew up were

indistinguishable from adult schizophrenics. Of course all of those

individuals diagnosed with childhood schizophrenia may have been

schizophrenics -but the point is that is where autism had it's

roots -not in children that presented normally but were " just " late

talkers.

" This is due to the fact that up until recently, very little has

been known about individuals with autism, and they were lumped

together into the category of mental retardation, or placed in

institutions (from 1800-1938, it was referred to as childhood

schizophrenia). "

http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/biology/b103/f00/web1/obaray.html

I've met many children with PDD or autism and to me it's clear it's

different then apraxia. But I've also met children diagnosed as

possible PDD/mild autism and to me some just present apraxic. In

fact when those children are taken for second opinions -it's learned that the

child was

misdiagnosed -hey...it happens....more than you want to know.

And for those of us that watched the movie that originally put

autism on the map for society -Rainman -that showed autism had

nothing to do with a speech impairment at that point. Then again

that presentation of autism was not typical since it showed autism

together with Savant Syndrome.

But here are some examples from that movie that stuck in our

memories as what " autism " was then:

" At a restaurant, a waitress (played by Bonnie Hunt) is slightly

puzzled when says her name and home phone number. He had

read and memorized up to the letter G — halfway through G — in the

residential directory of a phone book the previous night. Charlie is

able to convince the waitress that means well, and she seems

slightly impressed. Later, the waitress drops a box of toothpicks,

spilling its contents, prompting to instantly calculate the

number of toothpicks on the floor (246). Charlie thinks his brother

is wrong (since the box is a 250-count size), until the waitress

says that four of the toothpicks remained in the box.

constantly repeats the " Who's on First? " routine when

Charlie is upset with him. This annoys Charlie, especially since

does not understand the punchline and his repetition of it

strips it of its comic meaning.

shows echolalic tendencies when he does his impression of a

line said by a D.J. all morning, much to Charlie's annoyance.

At a small town (filmed in Guthrie, Oklahoma) intersection

controlled by a stoplight, stops in the middle of a

crosswalk after the " Don't Walk " light begins flashing, causing

traffic to back up and angering motorists. Charlie frantically

guides across the sidewalk as one of them approaches

in a threatening manner.

As they are traveling down a rural road, reminds Charlie

that The People's Court is about to start. With no towns in sight,

Charlie is forced to ask a local resident to allow his brother to

watch TV. He poses as a representative from a television ratings

survey firm, but the cover is blown as a very anxious begins

peeking in the windows and worrying that he'll miss " Judge Wapner, "

forcing Charlie to explain the situation. The woman reluctantly

relents and allows the brothers inside.

Stopping at a motel for the night, Charlie hears muttering

the phrase " funny rain man. " Charlie realizes that, as a toddler, he

tried to say '' but it came out 'Rain Man,' to which he

responds, " You're the Rain Man? " produces a photo of two-

year-old Charlie and thirteen-year-old , revealing that he

was Charlie's supposedly imaginary friend. As Charlie draws water

for a bath, has a panic attack, screaming, " Hot water burn

baby, " suggesting that almost burned his infant brother in

scalding water, and this is why he was sent to the Walbrook

Institution, although it was more likely that the father found

himself unable to look after following the death of the

mother ( mentioned that he was sent to Walbrook a few days

after his mother's death). "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rain_Man

If you are saying you have a child with autism that is social and

affectionate and is (was?) apraxic but is now cured ...do you accept

the possibility that your child was misdiagnosed as both autistic

and apraxic?

I don't believe apraxia as we know it today is curable 100% by any

means we know of yet. I'm sure your child is speaking fine now, but

why wasn't he before? Could be many reasons outside of apraxia.

Simple speech delays resolve for example even without therapy.

We know what the autism definition is for medical professionals from

years ago to how it's morphed since. Here's one history brief:

http://www.autism-resources.com/autismfaq-hist.html

What to you is the definition of autism? And what percentage of the

population fits the criteria of autistic based on your definition?

(estimate)

=====

[Guest guest]

Let's check the DSM criteria for Autism.

Autistic Disorder 299.00 can be reviewed right here:

http://www.autism-biomed.org/dsm-iv.htm

If you continue to scroll down you can see that PDD 299.80 and

Asperger's have their DSM criteria listed as well.

You'll note that eye contact can be a deciding factor for autism.

That social skills ARE a dividing line. The fact that the child must

have 2 of the symptoms under the first heading show that a social child

would find it nearly impossible to meet these criteria.

So, according to the DSM lack of eye contact IS a diagnositic criteria.

Some may not like to hear it or accept it but the DSM is what is used

as the diagnostic standard. The criteria for all three note a severe

impairment of reciprocal social interaction. Again, some may not like

to hear it but that is the diagnostic criteria. Because a child does

not fit this picture but is labeled ASD is an issue between the

parent, the child and the healthcare provider that made the diagnosis.

Discuss the discrepancies you note in your child vs. the child's

diagnosis with the one who labeled him/her. But comments such as

those given on previous posts are muddying the waters and possibly

promoting an attitude of fearfulness when the information presented

isn't correct. I think it is very important for each of us to know

each and every criteria under these labels so that when one is

presented we know whether or not it fits our child. Not based on our

gut, knee jerk reaction but based on the actual diagnostic criteria.

I'll get off my soapbox now.

Kris

Lac

On Aug 4, 2006, at 3:42 PM, maryebe wrote:

> Based on my experience with my daughter (diagnosed with both ASD and

> apraxia at age 2), the biomedical and therapy approaches that worked

> to address her autism symptoms also cured her apraxia. Many kids with

> ASD have digestive issues - there are now at least two well-known pedi

> gastroenterologists who work solely with children with autism because

> of the high frequency of problems. Instead of focusing on whether or

> not your child has autism, or " just " apraxia, I think it's more

> valuable to focus on learning about what has worked for children with

> ASD and seeing if it could help your kid. I don't know how many of you

> have done nutritional analysis (and organic acids) and immune function

> testing on your kids, but I would not be surprised to see a lot of

> overlap in medical issues with autism and apraxia.

>

> I guess I'm starting to sound like a broken record, but lack of

> affection and lack of eye contact are NOT diagnostic criteria for

> autism or PDD. My son with ASD is one of the most affectionate, loving

> children I have ever known. He just has a very loving nature. He is

> also very interested in playing with other children - he is not

> withdrawn socially (though he doesn't always interact appropriately).

> And he also has ASD.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Kris it's not that simple. If you read the following archives

you'll see that the DSM was never meant to be a check list. Clip

from the following archives:

" For those professionals in this group please speak with

Martha Herbert, MD, Ph.D. pediatric neurologist.

Dr. Herbert

http://neuro-oas.mgh.harvard.edu/childneurology/bios/herbert.html

and I had a discussion about this once and she told me that the

diagnostic criteria for autism was never meant to be diagnostic

criteria -it was meant to be a list of symptoms that typically can

accompany a child with autism. Now that would have made more sense! "

Also 's correct in that there 'could' be reasons for lack of eye

contact while trying to talk if a child has an impairment of

speech. And not that this was brought up but due to frustration

children can lash out, or withdraw. Most of us learn as we go what

we are dealing with regardless of what our child is " diagnosed "

with. Very few once on EFAs present as classic apraxic or autistic

(thank goodness) but they still require therapies in most cases -

just different goals. Those that are apraxic and not on EFAs are

still working on learning to talk and be understood -while those on

EFAs are learning how to talk as fast as they want in long complex

thoughts and blend into the norm. That appears to be my son

Tanner's goal anyway -it's what he strives for. (and we'll continue

to help him achieve it)

~~~~~~~~~~~~start of archives

Re: Conversation/Answering Question Delays

Hi !

Who hasn't seen this who has a child in this group that is learning

to talk?

This really doesn't apply only to nonautistic children -it can

happen in any child that has apraxia -stuttering -or many other

speech

and/or language impairments -including those children with autism

who have

underlying apraxia etc. It can

therefore happen for a number of reasons too. Is it that the child

(who wants

to answer)

is hesitating due to cognitive delays or more likely motor planning -

or is it due to fear of failing when trying to talk? Also most

apraxic children

have good eye contact -but not 'while' talking -they are many times

working so

hard on just getting the words out they don't have good eye contact

during this

time.

For the most part -when comfortable, confident and rested the child

with a

speech and/or language impairment

will talk more -and talk better than when they are stressed,

insecure and tired.

When a stranger asks a question -the more they concentrate on

wanting to answer -and answer right -the harder it is. The extreme

is words don't come out -and less extreme but just as uncomfortable

is

answering -but the answer is unintelligible or not exactly what they

wanted to say.

As a child grows older this is one of the strategies they can be

taught -how to answer otheres, including strangers, and be

comfortable doing it.

There will always be situations where they break down -as they get

older they are required to use words that are even complex for

the " normal " speaker in school, etc. -but if a child grows up with a

healthy self esteem -they will learn to roll with it and not feel

badly about themselves when they can't keep up verbally in

situations such as these. Goodness knows however that most of the

world is not based in complex thought or language -so for the most

part our children will be able to blend long enough to keep working

on building stronger models to get to more complex language. It's

something you can work on and practice with your child with puppets

(start simple like this -and point out to them the models in these

basic

questions -they can basically repeat back what was asked of them!)

" What's your name? "

" Tanner what's your name? "

" How are you? "

" I'm fine how are you? "

" Nice to meet you! "

" Nice to meet you too! "

Down the road you can work on more complex thoughts/conversations

such as

" So what are your philosophical views on Dan Brown's new book The Da

Vinci Code? "

=====

[Guest guest]

There are always social issues in autism, but the issue is not always

withdrawal, or a lack of interest in social interaction. Many kids

with autism want to interact with others, but they have trouble

reading social situations and non-verbal cues.

Kids do recover from autism and apraxia. My daughter had classic

symptoms of both, and she was diagnosed by qualified professionals. I

think you are saying that because she recovered, she could not

possibly have had these disorders, which isn't true - she met the

diagnostic criteria quite clearly. My daughter received very early,

intensive intervention, both therapy and biomed, and that is why she

is doing so well today. I've used many of the same interventions with

my son, but he was older when I started, and his progress has been

slower. My daughter initially seemed more severely autistic than my son.

>

> I agree there are many overlaps today of apraxia and mild

> autism today in both diagnosis and issues such as digestive ones

> that even some " experts " mainly in the apraxia circle don't

> acknowledge...for example constipation. But where I disagree is

> I believe there 'are' clear differances. A child can have one/both

or something

> else. And in order to secure appropriate therapies you need to know

which.

>

> Quite frankly the diagnosis of autism has morphed so

> much in such a short time that I don't know what it means...and your

> emails make it even more confusing for me.

>

> The way we have separated autism from apraxia is social...and now

> you say that's not a divider either?

>

> The original children diagnosed years ago as having " childhood

> schizophrenia " previous to the diagnosis called autism which was

> what it was referred to back when -when they grew up were

> indistinguishable from adult schizophrenics. Of course all of those

> individuals diagnosed with childhood schizophrenia may have been

> schizophrenics -but the point is that is where autism had it's

> roots -not in children that presented normally but were " just " late

> talkers.

>

> " This is due to the fact that up until recently, very little has

> been known about individuals with autism, and they were lumped

> together into the category of mental retardation, or placed in

> institutions (from 1800-1938, it was referred to as childhood

> schizophrenia). "

> http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/biology/b103/f00/web1/obaray.html

>

> I've met many children with PDD or autism and to me it's clear it's

> different then apraxia. But I've also met children diagnosed as

> possible PDD/mild autism and to me some just present apraxic. In

> fact when those children are taken for second opinions -it's learned

that the child was

> misdiagnosed -hey...it happens....more than you want to know.

>

> And for those of us that watched the movie that originally put

> autism on the map for society -Rainman -that showed autism had

> nothing to do with a speech impairment at that point. Then again

> that presentation of autism was not typical since it showed autism

> together with Savant Syndrome.

>

> But here are some examples from that movie that stuck in our

> memories as what " autism " was then:

>

> " At a restaurant, a waitress (played by Bonnie Hunt) is slightly

> puzzled when says her name and home phone number. He had

> read and memorized up to the letter G — halfway through G — in the

> residential directory of a phone book the previous night. Charlie is

> able to convince the waitress that means well, and she seems

> slightly impressed. Later, the waitress drops a box of toothpicks,

> spilling its contents, prompting to instantly calculate the

> number of toothpicks on the floor (246). Charlie thinks his brother

> is wrong (since the box is a 250-count size), until the waitress

> says that four of the toothpicks remained in the box.

>

> constantly repeats the " Who's on First? " routine when

> Charlie is upset with him. This annoys Charlie, especially since

> does not understand the punchline and his repetition of it

> strips it of its comic meaning.

>

> shows echolalic tendencies when he does his impression of a

> line said by a D.J. all morning, much to Charlie's annoyance.

> At a small town (filmed in Guthrie, Oklahoma) intersection

> controlled by a stoplight, stops in the middle of a

> crosswalk after the " Don't Walk " light begins flashing, causing

> traffic to back up and angering motorists. Charlie frantically

> guides across the sidewalk as one of them approaches

> in a threatening manner.

>

> As they are traveling down a rural road, reminds Charlie

> that The People's Court is about to start. With no towns in sight,

> Charlie is forced to ask a local resident to allow his brother to

> watch TV. He poses as a representative from a television ratings

> survey firm, but the cover is blown as a very anxious begins

> peeking in the windows and worrying that he'll miss " Judge Wapner, "

> forcing Charlie to explain the situation. The woman reluctantly

> relents and allows the brothers inside.

>

> Stopping at a motel for the night, Charlie hears muttering

> the phrase " funny rain man. " Charlie realizes that, as a toddler, he

> tried to say '' but it came out 'Rain Man,' to which he

> responds, " You're the Rain Man? " produces a photo of two-

> year-old Charlie and thirteen-year-old , revealing that he

> was Charlie's supposedly imaginary friend. As Charlie draws water

> for a bath, has a panic attack, screaming, " Hot water burn

> baby, " suggesting that almost burned his infant brother in

> scalding water, and this is why he was sent to the Walbrook

> Institution, although it was more likely that the father found

> himself unable to look after following the death of the

> mother ( mentioned that he was sent to Walbrook a few days

> after his mother's death). "

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rain_Man

>

> If you are saying you have a child with autism that is social and

> affectionate and is (was?) apraxic but is now cured ...do you accept

> the possibility that your child was misdiagnosed as both autistic

> and apraxic?

>

> I don't believe apraxia as we know it today is curable 100% by any

> means we know of yet. I'm sure your child is speaking fine now, but

> why wasn't he before? Could be many reasons outside of apraxia.

>

> Simple speech delays resolve for example even without therapy.

>

> We know what the autism definition is for medical professionals from

> years ago to how it's morphed since. Here's one history brief:

> http://www.autism-resources.com/autismfaq-hist.html

>

> What to you is the definition of autism? And what percentage of the

> population fits the criteria of autistic based on your definition?

> (estimate)

>

> =====

>

[Guest guest]

There are always social issues in autism, but the issue is not always

withdrawal, or a lack of interest in social interaction. Many kids

with autism want to interact with others, but they have trouble

reading social situations and non-verbal cues.

Kids do recover from autism and apraxia. My daughter had classic

symptoms of both, and she was diagnosed by qualified professionals. I

think you are saying that because she recovered, she could not

possibly have had these disorders, which isn't true - she met the

diagnostic criteria quite clearly. My daughter received very early,

intensive intervention, both therapy and biomed, and that is why she

is doing so well today. I've used many of the same interventions with

my son, but he was older when I started, and his progress has been

slower. My daughter initially seemed more severely autistic than my son.

>

> I agree there are many overlaps today of apraxia and mild

> autism today in both diagnosis and issues such as digestive ones

> that even some " experts " mainly in the apraxia circle don't

> acknowledge...for example constipation. But where I disagree is

> I believe there 'are' clear differances. A child can have one/both

or something

> else. And in order to secure appropriate therapies you need to know

which.

>

> Quite frankly the diagnosis of autism has morphed so

> much in such a short time that I don't know what it means...and your

> emails make it even more confusing for me.

>

> The way we have separated autism from apraxia is social...and now

> you say that's not a divider either?

>

> The original children diagnosed years ago as having " childhood

> schizophrenia " previous to the diagnosis called autism which was

> what it was referred to back when -when they grew up were

> indistinguishable from adult schizophrenics. Of course all of those

> individuals diagnosed with childhood schizophrenia may have been

> schizophrenics -but the point is that is where autism had it's

> roots -not in children that presented normally but were " just " late

> talkers.

>

> " This is due to the fact that up until recently, very little has

> been known about individuals with autism, and they were lumped

> together into the category of mental retardation, or placed in

> institutions (from 1800-1938, it was referred to as childhood

> schizophrenia). "

> http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/biology/b103/f00/web1/obaray.html

>

> I've met many children with PDD or autism and to me it's clear it's

> different then apraxia. But I've also met children diagnosed as

> possible PDD/mild autism and to me some just present apraxic. In

> fact when those children are taken for second opinions -it's learned

that the child was

> misdiagnosed -hey...it happens....more than you want to know.

>

> And for those of us that watched the movie that originally put

> autism on the map for society -Rainman -that showed autism had

> nothing to do with a speech impairment at that point. Then again

> that presentation of autism was not typical since it showed autism

> together with Savant Syndrome.

>

> But here are some examples from that movie that stuck in our

> memories as what " autism " was then:

>

> " At a restaurant, a waitress (played by Bonnie Hunt) is slightly

> puzzled when says her name and home phone number. He had

> read and memorized up to the letter G — halfway through G — in the

> residential directory of a phone book the previous night. Charlie is

> able to convince the waitress that means well, and she seems

> slightly impressed. Later, the waitress drops a box of toothpicks,

> spilling its contents, prompting to instantly calculate the

> number of toothpicks on the floor (246). Charlie thinks his brother

> is wrong (since the box is a 250-count size), until the waitress

> says that four of the toothpicks remained in the box.

>

> constantly repeats the " Who's on First? " routine when

> Charlie is upset with him. This annoys Charlie, especially since

> does not understand the punchline and his repetition of it

> strips it of its comic meaning.

>

> shows echolalic tendencies when he does his impression of a

> line said by a D.J. all morning, much to Charlie's annoyance.

> At a small town (filmed in Guthrie, Oklahoma) intersection

> controlled by a stoplight, stops in the middle of a

> crosswalk after the " Don't Walk " light begins flashing, causing

> traffic to back up and angering motorists. Charlie frantically

> guides across the sidewalk as one of them approaches

> in a threatening manner.

>

> As they are traveling down a rural road, reminds Charlie

> that The People's Court is about to start. With no towns in sight,

> Charlie is forced to ask a local resident to allow his brother to

> watch TV. He poses as a representative from a television ratings

> survey firm, but the cover is blown as a very anxious begins

> peeking in the windows and worrying that he'll miss " Judge Wapner, "

> forcing Charlie to explain the situation. The woman reluctantly

> relents and allows the brothers inside.

>

> Stopping at a motel for the night, Charlie hears muttering

> the phrase " funny rain man. " Charlie realizes that, as a toddler, he

> tried to say '' but it came out 'Rain Man,' to which he

> responds, " You're the Rain Man? " produces a photo of two-

> year-old Charlie and thirteen-year-old , revealing that he

> was Charlie's supposedly imaginary friend. As Charlie draws water

> for a bath, has a panic attack, screaming, " Hot water burn

> baby, " suggesting that almost burned his infant brother in

> scalding water, and this is why he was sent to the Walbrook

> Institution, although it was more likely that the father found

> himself unable to look after following the death of the

> mother ( mentioned that he was sent to Walbrook a few days

> after his mother's death). "

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rain_Man

>

> If you are saying you have a child with autism that is social and

> affectionate and is (was?) apraxic but is now cured ...do you accept

> the possibility that your child was misdiagnosed as both autistic

> and apraxic?

>

> I don't believe apraxia as we know it today is curable 100% by any

> means we know of yet. I'm sure your child is speaking fine now, but

> why wasn't he before? Could be many reasons outside of apraxia.

>

> Simple speech delays resolve for example even without therapy.

>

> We know what the autism definition is for medical professionals from

> years ago to how it's morphed since. Here's one history brief:

> http://www.autism-resources.com/autismfaq-hist.html

>

> What to you is the definition of autism? And what percentage of the

> population fits the criteria of autistic based on your definition?

> (estimate)

>

> =====

>

[Guest guest]

At 09:39 AM 8/4/2006, you wrote:

>But, in the grand scheme of things, even if you don't necessarily agree

>with an ASD diagnosis, I've been told by numerious people that it is

>better to accept that diagnosis and move forward with it. I don't know

>where you live, but here, kids who get the ASD diagnosis have 2-3 times

>the access to services as kids with other diagnosises.

>

>So from my perspective, if they want to label my son as " martian " if that

>get him more services, I'm okay with it. So even though an austism

>diagnosis is extremely devastating to hear it can be an important tool in

>helping your son. Don't reject it outright. And remember that even with an

>ASD diagnosis, he's the same kid today he was a week ago and you'll love

>him just the same. But now he has access to services to help him be the

>kid that he has the potential to be.

>

>:-)Tera

I agree and disagree. An autism diagnosis can open the doors to therapies,

but these therapies are not always the most appropriate and can even be

harmful if the diagnosis is not correct. This was our story. My son made

NO progress from age 23 mo to 3.11yrs. At that point we " Gradulated " from

EI services, I went private for speech. He got the appropriate diagnosis

of apraxia and we threw out the autism misdiagnosis and wow! He started

making progress! He went from 5 hours of therapies a week to just two and

went from NO, and I really mean NO measurable speech and language progress

in two years to 6 months improvement in the first 5 months. So if you do

embrace the autism diagnosis make sure progress is happening. If it's not

keep searching and fighting for something more appropriate. I feel my son

lost two years and the autism therapies increased his frustrations which he

exibited by getting withdrawn and depressed.

Miche

[Guest guest]

At 09:39 AM 8/4/2006, you wrote:

>But, in the grand scheme of things, even if you don't necessarily agree

>with an ASD diagnosis, I've been told by numerious people that it is

>better to accept that diagnosis and move forward with it. I don't know

>where you live, but here, kids who get the ASD diagnosis have 2-3 times

>the access to services as kids with other diagnosises.

>

>So from my perspective, if they want to label my son as " martian " if that

>get him more services, I'm okay with it. So even though an austism

>diagnosis is extremely devastating to hear it can be an important tool in

>helping your son. Don't reject it outright. And remember that even with an

>ASD diagnosis, he's the same kid today he was a week ago and you'll love

>him just the same. But now he has access to services to help him be the

>kid that he has the potential to be.

>

>:-)Tera

I agree and disagree. An autism diagnosis can open the doors to therapies,

but these therapies are not always the most appropriate and can even be

harmful if the diagnosis is not correct. This was our story. My son made

NO progress from age 23 mo to 3.11yrs. At that point we " Gradulated " from

EI services, I went private for speech. He got the appropriate diagnosis

of apraxia and we threw out the autism misdiagnosis and wow! He started

making progress! He went from 5 hours of therapies a week to just two and

went from NO, and I really mean NO measurable speech and language progress

in two years to 6 months improvement in the first 5 months. So if you do

embrace the autism diagnosis make sure progress is happening. If it's not

keep searching and fighting for something more appropriate. I feel my son

lost two years and the autism therapies increased his frustrations which he

exibited by getting withdrawn and depressed.

Miche