Re: Bread And Related Issues

[Guest guest]

> --- In @y..., " biophile410 " <biophile410@y...>

wrote:

> Do you want bread that is 'NT-compatible' or bread that is

> nutritious? If it's the latter, rather than the former, then the

soil

> fertility in which the grain is grown will be the most important

> issue.

I agree with you 100% on this. How can we know the soil conditions

for the food we buy? I already buy my vegetables, and some fruits,

from an organic (no chemical spraying whatsoever), self-sustained

farm. I have taken a tour of the farm and know the soil is healthy.

Without being able to take a tour and talk to the growers, how can we

know if the soil is good? To me, ORGANIC labeling does not mean

much; organic standards have changed so much. What do you do?

Peace and Love of Christ be with you,

Robin

[Guest guest]

Daphne,as I read your post it is apparent you are more interested in his

health than he is. If he doesn't perceive he has problems you will

not change his mind. I would re-think this relationship, and

save your self allot of grief. If he is young and not over weight he is

not

insulin resistant.-ine in WA

-----Original Message-----

From: biophile410 [mailto:biophile410@...]

Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 8:39 PM

Subject: Bread And Related Issues

OK, pretend you are me for a minute. My finace has the heart conition

SVT. He had to

go to the emergency room Sunday, while we were on a hike, due to rapid

heartbeat and

palpitations. (Note: this is a disorder of the nerves in his heart, not

an artery blockage.)

He is very skeptical and questions everything I say about nutrition

which is

understandable, but difficult. Even though I have some bio/physio

education there is no

way I can prove everything I " know " .

Pacific Bakery in the Bay Area makes bread which seems 'NT-compatible'.

The only

ingredients are spelt or kamut, filtered water and sea salt. It is made

in a 14-hour, labor

intensive process, according to the packaging.

But he won't eat that bread -- now that I think of it, I'm not quite

sure why.

If he was convinced that " regular " bread was causing problems, he would

make changes.

But he's not convinced.

I told him about phytic acid and he said " well I'll just take a mineral

pill at a different time

of day. " I told him that everything we eat should be nutrient intensive

because that's

how our ancestors ate. He didn't bite (ha ha).

Ok, so my/his questions are:

1. What makes a bread NT Compatible?

2. What is a good summation of the benefits of NT Compatible bread?

3. Why can't we get our nutrients from pills? (Poor absorption? Well

why can't we just

take a motherload of pills, and some will get digested, the rest

excreted? If we CAN get

extra our nutrients from pills why bother eating 'good' bread, grains,

etc.?)

4. How does one test for insulin resistance (which I believe he may

have)?

5. How can I make bread that *tastes and feels like 'regular' sandwich

bread* -- but is

NT Compatible? (I do not bake, but I'll try, especially if guided to a

recipie/technique he

will like.)

This is a lot -- but if anyone can answer EVEN ONE of these questions I

will be grateful.

Daphne

[Guest guest]

Chi, I always find your comments fascinating, but they tend to lack practical

solutions.

Is it possible to find grains to bake with, that come from high fertility soil?

By

what standards does judge their quality? And you seem to imply that the

whole labor intensive leavening process is of little or no value. Are you

concerned about phytic acid?

As for WAP I have only had a chance to read 25% of the book and to be

honest I didn't find the first quarter very informative. The book is up there on

my priority list but my time is limited.

Since posting last night I did read the Vitamin Primer and Mineral Primer on

the WAP Foundation web site and that was very helpful.

Daphne

> > He is very skeptical and questions everything I say

> > about nutrition which is understandable, but difficult.

> > Even though I have some bio/physio education there is no

> > way I can prove everything I " know " .

>

> Hi Daphne:

> In your learning process were you taught that food is not produced

> for nutritional quality, but rather it is produced for quantity?

> Also, in producing food for quantity, were you taught that the higher

> quantities are obtained at the expense of nutritional quality?

>

> > Pacific Bakery in the Bay Area makes bread which seems 'NT-

> > compatible'. The only ingredients are spelt or kamut,

> > filtered water and sea salt. It is made in a 14-hour, labor

> > intensive process, according to the packaging.

>

> Daphne:

> Do you want bread that is 'NT-compatible' or bread that is

> nutritious? If it's the latter, rather than the former, then the soil

> fertility in which the grain is grown will be the most important

> issue.

>

> > If he was convinced that " regular " bread was causing

> > problems, he would make changes.

>

> Daphne:

> You might tell him that it isn't what is in regular bread (or, for

> that matter, any other food) that is the problem with regular bread,

> but what isn't in regular bread.

>

> > Ok, so my/his questions are:

> > 3. Why can't we get our nutrients from pills?

>

> Because, Daphne, we don't know what all the nutrients are or how they

> would all work together in combination if we knew what they were. A

> diet from low soil fertility plus supplements will never be the

> nutritional equivalent of a diet from high soil fertility.

> Chi

> P.S. I would suggest your reading " Nutrition and Physical

> Degeneration " to strengthen your arguments and become better informed.

[Guest guest]

He is interested in his health. He just doesn't believe things without proof.

Everyone has different levels of skeptism and different standards by which

they make judgements. Telling me to leave him is entirely not helpful. He is

37 and about 10 pounds overweight.

Daphne

> Daphne,as I read your post it is apparent you are more interested in his

> health than he is. If he doesn't perceive he has problems you will

> not change his mind. I would re-think this relationship, and

> save your self allot of grief. If he is young and not over weight he is

> not

> insulin resistant.-ine in WA

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: biophile410 [mailto:biophile410@y...]

> Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 8:39 PM

> @y...

> Subject: Bread And Related Issues

>

>

> OK, pretend you are me for a minute. My finace has the heart conition

> SVT. He had to

> go to the emergency room Sunday, while we were on a hike, due to rapid

> heartbeat and

> palpitations. (Note: this is a disorder of the nerves in his heart, not

> an artery blockage.)

>

> He is very skeptical and questions everything I say about nutrition

> which is

> understandable, but difficult. Even though I have some bio/physio

> education there is no

> way I can prove everything I " know " .

>

> Pacific Bakery in the Bay Area makes bread which seems 'NT-compatible'.

> The only

> ingredients are spelt or kamut, filtered water and sea salt. It is made

> in a 14-hour, labor

> intensive process, according to the packaging.

>

> But he won't eat that bread -- now that I think of it, I'm not quite

> sure why.

>

> If he was convinced that " regular " bread was causing problems, he would

> make changes.

> But he's not convinced.

>

> I told him about phytic acid and he said " well I'll just take a mineral

> pill at a different time

> of day. " I told him that everything we eat should be nutrient intensive

> because that's

> how our ancestors ate. He didn't bite (ha ha).

>

> Ok, so my/his questions are:

> 1. What makes a bread NT Compatible?

>

> 2. What is a good summation of the benefits of NT Compatible bread?

>

> 3. Why can't we get our nutrients from pills? (Poor absorption? Well

> why can't we just

> take a motherload of pills, and some will get digested, the rest

> excreted? If we CAN get

> extra our nutrients from pills why bother eating 'good' bread, grains,

> etc.?)

>

> 4. How does one test for insulin resistance (which I believe he may

> have)?

>

> 5. How can I make bread that *tastes and feels like 'regular' sandwich

> bread* -- but is

> NT Compatible? (I do not bake, but I'll try, especially if guided to a

> recipie/technique he

> will like.)

>

> This is a lot -- but if anyone can answer EVEN ONE of these questions I

> will be grateful.

> Daphne

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>>What do you do?

I do the best I can with what is available and then just relax. I

believe our bodies are fearfully and wonderfully made and will do a lot more

for us than we realize - especially when we are doing the best we can to

maintain them.

ine in SC

[Guest guest]

Daphne, I didn't tell you to leave the relationship I suggested to

*re-think* your part of it. You are more vested than he is in

his health, if he wants proof GOOD LUCK, there is no

proof, we have opinions, this list is a shining example of that.

All I was suggesting is that it is his journey, not yours,

because you have no power here. You will save your self allot

of pain if you understand this one thing. I think it is

great you are trying to be helpful but understand if he is unwilling to

listen to you about that gooey white death bread, all is

lost. -ine in WA

-----Original Message-----

From: biophile410 [mailto:biophile410@...]

Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 11:48 AM

Subject: Re: Bread And Related Issues

He is interested in his health. He just doesn't believe things without

proof.

Everyone has different levels of skeptism and different standards by

which

they make judgements. Telling me to leave him is entirely not helpful.

He is

37 and about 10 pounds overweight.

Daphne

--- In @y..., " , ine " <pthompson@s...>

wrote:

> Daphne,as I read your post it is apparent you are more interested in

his

> health than he is. If he doesn't perceive he has problems you will

> not change his mind. I would re-think this relationship,

and

> save your self allot of grief. If he is young and not over weight he

is

> not

> insulin resistant.-ine in WA

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: biophile410 [mailto:biophile410@y...]

> Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 8:39 PM

> @y...

> Subject: Bread And Related Issues

>

>

> OK, pretend you are me for a minute. My finace has the heart conition

> SVT. He had to

> go to the emergency room Sunday, while we were on a hike, due to rapid

> heartbeat and

> palpitations. (Note: this is a disorder of the nerves in his heart,

not

> an artery blockage.)

>

> He is very skeptical and questions everything I say about nutrition

> which is

> understandable, but difficult. Even though I have some bio/physio

> education there is no

> way I can prove everything I " know " .

>

> Pacific Bakery in the Bay Area makes bread which seems

'NT-compatible'.

> The only

> ingredients are spelt or kamut, filtered water and sea salt. It is

made

> in a 14-hour, labor

> intensive process, according to the packaging.

>

> But he won't eat that bread -- now that I think of it, I'm not quite

> sure why.

>

> If he was convinced that " regular " bread was causing problems, he

would

> make changes.

> But he's not convinced.

>

> I told him about phytic acid and he said " well I'll just take a

mineral

> pill at a different time

> of day. " I told him that everything we eat should be nutrient

intensive

> because that's

> how our ancestors ate. He didn't bite (ha ha).

>

> Ok, so my/his questions are:

> 1. What makes a bread NT Compatible?

>

> 2. What is a good summation of the benefits of NT Compatible bread?

>

> 3. Why can't we get our nutrients from pills? (Poor absorption?

Well

> why can't we just

> take a motherload of pills, and some will get digested, the rest

> excreted? If we CAN get

> extra our nutrients from pills why bother eating 'good' bread, grains,

> etc.?)

>

> 4. How does one test for insulin resistance (which I believe he may

> have)?

>

> 5. How can I make bread that *tastes and feels like 'regular' sandwich

> bread* -- but is

> NT Compatible? (I do not bake, but I'll try, especially if guided to

a

> recipie/technique he

> will like.)

>

> This is a lot -- but if anyone can answer EVEN ONE of these questions

I

> will be grateful.

> Daphne

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

--- In @y..., " givemeamomenttothink " <deweyli@e...>

wrote:

> I agree with you 100% on this. How can we know the soil

> conditions for the food we buy? I already buy my

> vegetables, and some fruits, from an organic (no chemical

> spraying whatsoever), self-sustained farm. I have taken a

> tour of the farm and know the soil is healthy. Without being able

> to take a tour and talk to the growers, how can we

> know if the soil is good? To me, ORGANIC labeling does not mean

> much; organic standards have changed so much. What do you do?

>

> Peace and Love of Christ be with you,

> Robin

Hi Robin:

For many years after reading " Nutrition and Physical Degeneration " I

was unable to find a satisfactory source of dairy products. I refused

to drink the locally available pasteurized organic milk from

holsteins on grass. During that time I ate mostly organic raw fruit

and vegetables and some raw meat, mainly beef. Two years ago I

learned that a farmer, whose persecution I had attended in the early

90's, was coming into my city to sell raw milk. In order to buy from

him I needed to ask him two questions: " What kind of cows do you

have? " and " What colour is your butter? " Based on his answers, I

purchased a lease on a cow and totally changed my diet. My weekly

food bill went down, and my health went up. I then started sending

him more customers until he told me to stop.

By the way, beore I asked him the two questions, I knew from talking

to him at his inquiry that he had read " Pottenger's Cats "

and " Nutrition and Physical Degeneration " . I later learned he had

also read Albrecht and Andre Voisin. Any dairy farmer who has

read this collection of books is at least on the right track and, in

my opinion, should be supported to perhaps do an even better job.

Chi

[Guest guest]

> Chi, I always find your comments fascinating, but they

> tend to lack practical solutions.

Hi Daphne:

If you want me to give a practical solution to a problem, just ask

me. I like to help people understand what the problems are that we

have to deal with. I don't know that I should be telling them what

they should be doing about it.

> Is it possible to find grains to bake with, that come

> from high fertility soil? By what standards does judge their

> quality? And you seem to imply that the whole labor intensive

> leavening process is of little or no value. Are you

> concerned about phytic acid?

It is probably possible to find grains to bake with that come from

high soil fertility, but it probably isn't easy to find them. Today

we have another problem with grains, they may be hybrid. Since

hybrids were developed for increased yields at the expense of

nutrition, I would suggest never using hybrids.

Hard wheat requires higher soil fertility than soft wheat. The

protein content of the wheat would help indicate the nutritional

value and the weight per bushel would also indicate nutritional

value. Any processing of food is dependent to a large extent on the

original nutritional quality of the food to begin with. Like making

compost, the value of the final product is largely dependent on the

soil fertility in which the organic matter being composted grew in.

The composting process used would be less important. Apparently, you

can't make a silk purse out of a pig's ear.

I am not concerned with phytic acid. I am not concerned with what is

in my food, I am concerned with what isn't in my food.

> As for WAP I have only had a chance to read 25% of the book

> and to be honest I didn't find the first quarter very

> informative. The book is up there on my priority list but

> my time is limited.

Keep reading. I found the first part of the book somewhat tedious,

becasue Price kept finding the same things in the isolated

populations and the nearby modernized populations. His conclusions of

what was happening and what to do about it will make reading it

worthwhile in the end. I tell people that if they wish to start to

really understand nutrition, to read this book. So keep reading.

Chi

[Guest guest]

>

> > I agree with you 100% on this. How can we know the soil

> > conditions for the food we buy? I already buy my

> > vegetables, and some fruits, from an organic (no chemical

> > spraying whatsoever), self-sustained farm. I have taken a

> > tour of the farm and know the soil is healthy. Without being able

> > to take a tour and talk to the growers, how can we

> > know if the soil is good? To me, ORGANIC labeling does not mean

> > much; organic standards have changed so much. What do you do?

> >

> > Peace and Love of Christ be with you,

> > Robin

>

> Hi Robin:

> For many years after reading " Nutrition and Physical Degeneration " I

> was unable to find a satisfactory source of dairy products. I

refused

> to drink the locally available pasteurized organic milk from

> holsteins on grass. During that time I ate mostly organic raw fruit

> and vegetables and some raw meat, mainly beef. Two years ago I

> learned that a farmer, whose persecution I had attended in the early

> 90's, was coming into my city to sell raw milk. In order to buy from

> him I needed to ask him two questions: " What kind of cows do you

> have? " and " What colour is your butter? "

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Chi, why ask " what kind of cow do you have " ? In other

words I find it hard to believe milk from Jersey's is the only

acceptable milk! Dennis

Based on his answers, I

> purchased a lease on a cow and totally changed my diet. My weekly

> food bill went down, and my health went up. I then started sending

> him more customers until he told me to stop.

> By the way, beore I asked him the two questions, I knew from talking

> to him at his inquiry that he had read " Pottenger's Cats "

> and " Nutrition and Physical Degeneration " . I later learned he had

> also read Albrecht and Andre Voisin. Any dairy farmer who

has

> read this collection of books is at least on the right track and, in

> my opinion, should be supported to perhaps do an even better job.

> Chi

[Guest guest]

At 06:47 PM 6/21/2002 +0000, you wrote:

>He is interested in his health. He just doesn't believe things without

>proof.

>Everyone has different levels of skeptism and different standards by which

>they make judgements. Telling me to leave him is entirely not

>helpful. He is

>37 and about 10 pounds overweight.

>

>Daphne

Mine isn't very interested in talking theory, but he eats whatever I make.

But in general he's enjoyed the change -- our meat tastes better (he used

to dislike beef, but now we have that tender longhorn he loves it), he

likes his pile of vegies with butter, the sorghum sets better with him than

wheat (that's a Heidi thing, not an NT thing), and he likes the fact we can

make kefir. He still won't try the kimchi after tasting some of the really

hot stuff and seeing a batch I made that had little fish in it, but he

liked the pickled beets. His long-standing gut problems are much better,

he's lost 20 lbs, and he can see that our son is healthier.

So I spout off nutrition now and then, but mostly he says, if I cook it and

it tastes good, why should he complain? He goes out and buys some potato

chips now and then but he rarely gets around to eating them -- I think when

you are eating well you don't get hungry enough to actually want stuff like

that. I told everyone at lunch today that they were awfully trusting, they

just eat whatever I cook and never ask for anything different. Someone

answered something like " Like we miss fishsticks? " .

Lunch was halibut braised in coconut milk (toss the halibut in a pan, pour

a can of coconut milk over it, simmer, add salt and pepper if you want),

cut up fruit with coconut (cut up some fruit and throw some coconut in it:

today it was mangos, bananas, and pineapple), fresh mixed greens from our

local farmer, acorn squash, and rice and kimchi for those that like it.

Trust me, if you serve a meal like that, he won't complain. Just don't tell

him it's good for him.

I make kefir smoothies too, and everyone loves them, they don't miss our

dried protein powder we used to use (and I don't miss the price tag either).

As for bread -- why concentrate on bread? I make it sometimes, but it's

only one thing in the diet and I don't even think it's the best part (even

though in modern America we have revolved everything around bread and other

baked goods). I've been soaking my sorghum in kefir, which makes a really

tasty, soft bread that is NT-compliant, but even at that, I find people

don't eat it much because they are full of the other stuff.

Heidi Schuppenhauer

Trillium Custom Software Inc.

heidis@...

[Guest guest]

--- In @y..., " dkemnitz2000 " <dkemnitz2000@y

> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Chi, why ask " what kind of cow do you have " ?

> In other words I find it hard to believe milk from

> Jersey's is the only acceptable milk! Dennis

Hi Dennis:

I asked the farmer what kind of cow he had to make sure he didn't

have holsteins. I wouldn't drink milk from a modern holstein.

Btw, my farmer does not have Jerseys, so I agree with your statement.

Chi

[Guest guest]

Daphne-

>And you seem to imply that the

>whole labor intensive leavening process is of little or no value. Are you

>concerned about phytic acid?

I think Chi isn't, but I think you should be. I have a great deal of

respect for his erudition on these matters, but sometimes it seems like his

position is so severely restricted to a single factor that he might as well

say " Do you want a poison that's just your typical lethal poison, or a

poison grown on fertile soil which is therefore of exceptional nutritional

quality? " <g>

[Guest guest]

Daphne-

>He is interested in his health. He just doesn't believe things without

>proof.

>Everyone has different levels of skeptism and different standards by which

>they make judgements. Telling me to leave him is entirely not

>helpful. He is

>37 and about 10 pounds overweight.

Give him _Cholesterol Myths_ by Dr. Uffe Ravnskov. There's probably no

other book with a higher density of proof.

-

[Guest guest]

Yes, I overstated the case; my BF and I had an argument which led to my post. He

actually does respect my opinions, and with more and better cooking (as Heidi

suggests)

his habits will improve. The thing that gets me is the rest of the world. I

dare not tell my

family that he has a heart condition (even though he's had it since birth). My

parents

are scientists; my younger brother's in medical school. A conversation we had

about

coconut oil made me feel like I was doing something evil. My dad's on

cholesterol

lowering medication. My mother gets upset that I cook my own egg in butter. I

suppose

this is why I live on the left coast.

> > Daphne,as I read your post it is apparent you are more interested in

> his

> > health than he is. If he doesn't perceive he has problems you will

> > not change his mind. I would re-think this relationship,

> and

> > save your self allot of grief. If he is young and not over weight he

> is

> > not

> > insulin resistant.-ine in WA

> >

> > -----Original Message-----

> > From: biophile410 [mailto:biophile410@y...]

> > Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 8:39 PM

> > @y...

> > Subject: Bread And Related Issues

> >

> >

> > OK, pretend you are me for a minute. My finace has the heart conition

> > SVT. He had to

> > go to the emergency room Sunday, while we were on a hike, due to rapid

> > heartbeat and

> > palpitations. (Note: this is a disorder of the nerves in his heart,

> not

> > an artery blockage.)

> >

> > He is very skeptical and questions everything I say about nutrition

> > which is

> > understandable, but difficult. Even though I have some bio/physio

> > education there is no

> > way I can prove everything I " know " .

> >

> > Pacific Bakery in the Bay Area makes bread which seems

> 'NT-compatible'.

> > The only

> > ingredients are spelt or kamut, filtered water and sea salt. It is

> made

> > in a 14-hour, labor

> > intensive process, according to the packaging.

> >

> > But he won't eat that bread -- now that I think of it, I'm not quite

> > sure why.

> >

> > If he was convinced that " regular " bread was causing problems, he

> would

> > make changes.

> > But he's not convinced.

> >

> > I told him about phytic acid and he said " well I'll just take a

> mineral

> > pill at a different time

> > of day. " I told him that everything we eat should be nutrient

> intensive

> > because that's

> > how our ancestors ate. He didn't bite (ha ha).

> >

> > Ok, so my/his questions are:

> > 1. What makes a bread NT Compatible?

> >

> > 2. What is a good summation of the benefits of NT Compatible bread?

> >

> > 3. Why can't we get our nutrients from pills? (Poor absorption?

> Well

> > why can't we just

> > take a motherload of pills, and some will get digested, the rest

> > excreted? If we CAN get

> > extra our nutrients from pills why bother eating 'good' bread, grains,

> > etc.?)

> >

> > 4. How does one test for insulin resistance (which I believe he may

> > have)?

> >

> > 5. How can I make bread that *tastes and feels like 'regular' sandwich

> > bread* -- but is

> > NT Compatible? (I do not bake, but I'll try, especially if guided to

> a

> > recipie/technique he

> > will like.)

> >

> > This is a lot -- but if anyone can answer EVEN ONE of these questions

> I

> > will be grateful.

> > Daphne

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

At 01:51 PM 6/22/02 -0400, you wrote:

>Wanita-

>

>>Got to be Guernseys. That was our family cow 40 years back. Higher butterfat

>>and production than Jersey.

>

>Though the Guernsey is an excellent cow, its milk has a slightly lower

>butterfat content than Jerseys.

>

>-

Could be now but I don't think it was 40 years ago. They've all likely altered

in this time with all the alterations in feed. Feed 40 years back was less

hybrid and soils were less depleted. Some breeds may adapt better and lose

less

quality. Could be the Guernsey didn't as its larger than the Jersey.

Wanita

[Guest guest]

> Yes, I overstated the case; my BF and I had an argument which led to my

post. He

> actually does respect my opinions, and with more and better cooking (as

Heidi suggests)

> his habits will improve. The thing that gets me is the rest of the world.

I dare not tell my

> family that he has a heart condition (even though he's had it since

birth). My parents

> are scientists; my younger brother's in medical school.

Then " Cholesterol Myths " ought to be just the ticket, as I'd say it is aimed

at the scientist who thinks that research has show cholesterol to be the

villain in heart disease.

>A conversation we had about

> coconut oil made me feel like I was doing something evil. My dad's on

cholesterol

> lowering medication. My mother gets upset that I cook my own egg in

butter. I suppose

> this is why I live on the left coast.

The problem is that the 'low fat is better' theory is so pervasive that when

you become convinced that it is not true it's like an earthquake that shakes

everything upside down. Soybean oil goes from good to bad, butter and eggs

go from bad to good, etc. Ron Schmidt's book 'Traditional Foods are your

Best Medicine' has a good summary of these arguments, if you want something

less technical than 'Cholesterol Myths.' I have a hard time getting my

husband to read these things (he just reads mysteries), but I've found that

casually reading out loud a few startling paragraphs to him got him thinking

about it. He did stop taking his cholesterol medication. Of course it helped

that he went along with me to the Wise Traditions conference in April.

Kris

[Guest guest]

> Sure. Actually, if anyone is interested, I can compile them into a

cookbook

> and just post one PDF. I was considering doing that anyway, to hand

them

> down to my kids ... (in my other life I write books ... not about

food

> though ... just boring technical programming stuff)

>

>

> Heidi

Oh! Pretty please, with sugar on top! That would be so wonderful. I

would be so grateful. This is darn hard to get on top of. Mentally,

it's one thing, but preparing foods is another issue altogether. I

used to be a pretty darn good cook/baker, with all the refined foods,

but now I find myself not being good at all and it is frustrating. I

could really use some help. Also, I know you use gluten free flours;

I am trying different flours, to create different flavors (don't care

for the wheat flavor in baked goods), in the stuff I make, so don't

hesitate to share those as well. Thank you.

Peace and Love of Christ be with you,

Robin

[Guest guest]

Wanita-

>Could be now but I don't think it was 40 years ago. They've all likely altered

>in this time with all the alterations in feed.

That's certainly possible, but AFAIK Jerseys have always offered more fat,

and still do even when both are exclusively pastured. However, it's a

small difference either way, and both are enormously superior to Holsteins.

-

[Guest guest]

At 11:48 AM 6/26/2002 +0000, you wrote:

>Hi Roman:

>The main message I got from reading " Nutrition and Physical

>Degeneration " was that it wasn't what what in our food that killed

>us, but rather that it was what wasn't in our food that killed us.

>Thus, unlike most people, I am not concerned with what is known to be

>in my food, but rather what is not known to absent from my food. Do

>you think the 14 isolated, healthy groups of people Price found were

>concerned with what was in their food?

>Chi

Chi:

Yes, in fact they were worried about what was in their food. That's why the

women spent

a lot of their daylight hours doing special preparation techniques. There

are a lot

of " native " foods that are downright poisonous as they exist in nature --

acorns make

great flour, but you have to pour hot water through the flour first (which

the native Americans

did). Manioc takes days of processing so it won't kill you. A number of

vegetables are not

really very good for you raw and need to be cooked or fermented. That's the

whole point

of NT: people came up with traditions that in fact were very healthy, and

that avoided

natural toxins.

Compared to the amount of processing those folks had to do to eat their

food, a little

bit of soaking for flour is nothing! But if you look at the old recipes, in

fact a lot

of soaking of flour was done. I got a recipe for Indian dosas, which

involves mixing

the flour with water and yogurt (or kefir!) and letting it set overnight --

when you do that the

pancakes DO taste better so whether the dosa cook did it because the pancakes

tasted better or because of phytates I don't know: but I suspect your body

" likes "

low-phytate foods better so people start preparing foods that way. But when you

read some of the old recipes you will see comments like " for

digestibility " , so

people were thinking along those lines too even if they didn't know what a

phytate

was.

Heidi Schuppenhauer

Trillium Custom Software Inc.

heidis@...

[Guest guest]

A number of

> vegetables are not

> really very good for you raw and need to be cooked or fermented.

Such as...........? I have been trying to find information on this

and can't find much at all. I have especially been looking for foods

that are not good for someone with thyroid disease; also, other food,

like spinach, that shouldn't be eaten raw, whether or not you have

thyroid problems. Which vegetables should not be eaten raw, thyroid

problems or not?

Peace and Love of Christ be with you,

Robin

[Guest guest]

Ahhh, I don't know what a phylate is...so what is it?

Robin

<<so

people were thinking along those lines too even if they didn't know what

a phytate

was.>>

[Guest guest]

At 07:14 PM 6/26/2002 +0000, you wrote:

>A number of

> > vegetables are not

> > really very good for you raw and need to be cooked or fermented.

>

>Such as...........? I have been trying to find information on this

>and can't find much at all. I have especially been looking for foods

>that are not good for someone with thyroid disease; also, other food,

>like spinach, that shouldn't be eaten raw, whether or not you have

>thyroid problems. Which vegetables should not be eaten raw, thyroid

>problems or not?

Here is a list of toxins in vegies. This list says the goiterogens in cabbage

are eliminated by cooking. So are some other toxins.

http://www.orst.edu/dept/hort/233/toxic.htm

In general, the things that have *always* been eaten cooked (like beans)

probably need to be cooked.

But personally I think a lot of it is a tradeoff -- raw cabbage has more

vitamins than cooked, but I can't eat much raw cabbage without heartburn. I

kind of

think fermenting is the best of both worlds: my kimchi TASTES fresh,

unlike cooked cabbage, but it's very digestible. It's also easier -- just

spoon from the jar onto plate and eat. I eat some vegies raw, some cooked,

some fermented. Then you get the whole spectrum (and I don't

get bored). If I get heartburn after eating it raw, I don't eat it raw.

As for thyroid -- what I've read is a lot more complicated than avoiding

vegetables. The Schwartzbein principle gets into it a little bit. I know

polyunsaturated fats aren't good, but coconut oil REALLY gets the

metabolism going (and a lot of low-thyroid people swear by it). Also

more protein and less starch up the metabolism. A high-protein meal

can cause a 35% increase in metabolism after the meal: a high-starch

meal does the opposite (by increasing seratonin levels).

I also get low-thyroid symptoms when I eat something I'm allergic to --

after the meal my hands and feet get ice-cold and the room seems to

get about 10 degrees colder. This is a typical symptom of food intolerances,

but I always thought it was my thyroid (my hands and feet were ALWAYS

cold).

You can do your own experimenting though: eat a meal, see what happens

1-3 hours after.

Heidi

[Guest guest]

Heidi Schuppenhauer wrote:

> A high-protein meal

> can cause a 35% increase in metabolism after the meal: a high-starch

> meal does the opposite (by increasing seratonin levels).

That's why predominantly meat eaters are lean and mean (no seratonin)

Roman

[Guest guest]

At 01:12 AM 6/27/2002 -0700, you wrote:

>That's why predominantly meat eaters are lean and mean (no seratonin)

>

>Roman

And why I have a few crackers before bedtime! ... :-)

Heidi

[Guest guest]

> Here is a list of toxins in vegies. This list says the goiterogens

in cabbage

> are eliminated by cooking. So are some other toxins.

>

> http://www.orst.edu/dept/hort/233/toxic.htm

> As for thyroid -- what I've read is a lot more complicated than

avoiding

> vegetables. The Schwartzbein principle gets into it a little bit. I

know

> polyunsaturated fats aren't good, but coconut oil REALLY gets the

> metabolism going (and a lot of low-thyroid people swear by it). Also

> more protein and less starch up the metabolism. A high-protein meal

> can cause a 35% increase in metabolism after the meal: a high-starch

> meal does the opposite (by increasing seratonin levels).

>

> I also get low-thyroid symptoms when I eat something I'm allergic

to --

> after the meal my hands and feet get ice-cold and the room seems to

> get about 10 degrees colder. This is a typical symptom of food

intolerances,

> but I always thought it was my thyroid (my hands and feet were

ALWAYS

> cold).

>

> You can do your own experimenting though: eat a meal, see what

happens

> 1-3 hours after.

> Heidi

Thank you sooooooo much Heidi!!!!!!! This is the type of information

I am needing. I looked through the internet and couldn't find

anything. I am amazed at your ability to gather information. I am

working on healing my thyroid through proper food preparation and

supplementation. I'm really hoping that I will eventually be able to

get off my medication. If anyone else has any information at all

that might help me, please pass it along.

Peace and Love of Christ be with you,

Robin