Guest guest Posted May 24, 2002 Report Share Posted May 24, 2002 Well, I'm " boning up " on my chem solubilities. Here's a couple of interesting tidbits though: http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag99/mar99-cover1.html =========== The hard mass characteristic of healthy bone is formed by inorganic minerals such as calcium, magnesium and phosphorous. This hard part of the bone is sometimes referred to as the " mineral mass. " The structural framework that holds the " mineral mass " in place is called the " organic bone matrix. " The organic matrix is comprised of proteins that require adequate amounts of zinc, manganese and copper in order to properly function. The trace minerals zinc, manganese and copper are essential co-factors for enzymes involved in the synthesis of the constituents that make up the bone matrix. ========== http://www.dinosauria.com/jdp/fossil/bonez.htm If the impact occurred and caused the acid rain suggested by the models it is not hard to see why a bone spike would be the last thing that you would expect to find. Consider for a moment the boundary clay. What ever produced that had to erode many rocks to produce that clay everywhere we see the boundary. That sort of erosion implies very large quantities of very acidic water falling out of the sky. Now consider the average bone. It will dissolve within an hour if put into 6M HCl [Hydrochloric acid]. Put it under water in water that has a pH < 6 [acidic] and it will dissolve within 1 week to 1 month depending on the size of the bone and its bone type (relative percentage of compact to cancellous bone is important here). The acid rain falling under the K/T impact model scenario is more than sufficient to destroy any bone on the surface within a short period ============= Bones DO dissolve. Quite well. And you can prove this by watching them dissolve in bone broth. All those nice minerals, Zinc, Calcium, Magnesium that hold the bone together LEAVE the bone leaving a mushy mess. Every " bone dissolving " experiment I've seen, and every talk about osteoporosis, says that acid dissolves calcium (but not the protein matrix). http://www.pbs.org/saf/1102/teaching/teaching3.htm Or the famous " dissolve the eggshell " trick: Key questions and desired answered: " Where do you think the shells that disappeared have gone? " Eggshells are made mostly of calcium, and vinegar can dissolve calcium, but water cannot. That is why the eggshells that were in the vinegar dissolved. The liquid now is a solution of calcium and vinegar. " What do you think will happen if I pour the solution over black paper and let it sit for several days? " Show them the black paper letters and explain that in order to makes this a more complete experiment, they are going to pour out the liquid from both the vinegar cups (to be put on a piece of paper they cut into a " V " ) and the water cups (on a piece of paper cut out into a " W " ) and compare the results. " Where did the crystals on the " V " paper come from? " These are calcium crystals from the dissolved eggshell. ==================================================== Most calcium salts are very soluable except a few, like Calcium Sulfate. The Sulfate/Sulfides are the calciums that are usually in water, and mineral water, and they DO precipitate out, which is why mineral water doesn't have much calcium. But Calcium phosphate and citrate and chloride dissolve just fine. And you can prove this very easily as was done earlier: Take a Calcium Carbonate tablet and add some vinegar, watch it fizz. Or dissolve about 6 of them in a cup of water with a little acid in it. You would have to really boil it down to make a soluable salt precipitate again, and at that point you wouldn't know if it was Calcium or the other salts in the broth. So I'll maintain that bone broths not only have a lot of calcium, but also magnesium and zinc in exactly the right concentrations needed to build human bone. And if you added some sulfuric acid to some broth you'd probably see a nice rich coating of white stuff on the bottom of your pan that you could measure. Heidi Schuppenhauer Trillium Custom Software Inc. heidis@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 24, 2002 Report Share Posted May 24, 2002 > So I'll maintain that bone broths not only have a lot of calcium, > but also magnesium and zinc in exactly the right concentrations > needed to build > human bone. And if you added some sulfuric acid to some broth you'd > probably see a nice rich coating of white stuff on the bottom of > your pan > that you could measure. Well, until it is measured and proven to be so, I think promoting stocks as a significant calcium source is dangerous. There should be at least *some* empirical evidence...and there currently is none that I'm aware of. I'd love to find some. I happen to like stock quite a bit, and it would be great if I could count on that supplying a good chunk of my mineral requirements. ...but I'm not just going to take Sally's word on the issue. By the way, why do think adding sulfuric acid would cause the stock to precipitate the minerals? I would expect that to simply *increase* it's solvent capacity with regard to calcium...not decrease it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 25, 2002 Report Share Posted May 25, 2002 At 09:38 PM 5/24/2002 +0000, you wrote: >By the way, why do think adding sulfuric acid would cause the stock >to precipitate the minerals? I would expect that to simply >*increase* it's solvent capacity with regard to calcium...not >decrease it. > > : It comes from days long ago when I was pretty good at chemistry. Here are some solubility rules: 1. All common compounds of Group I and ammonium ions are soluble. 2. All nitrates, acetates, and chlorates are soluble. 3. All binary compounds of the halogens (other than F) with metals are soluble, except those of Ag, Hg(I), and Pb. Pb halides are soluble in hot water.) 4. All sulfates are soluble, except those of barium, strontium, calcium, lead, silver, and mercury (I). The latter three are slightly soluble. 5. Except for rule 1, carbonates, hydroxides, oxides, silicates, and phosphates are insoluble. 6. Sulfides are insoluble except for calcium, barium, strontium, magnesium, sodium, potassium, and ammonium. Basically, you can figure out the solubility of a salt, and how much of it can be " held " in solution (there are formulas). I don't know specifically what salt calcium forms when it is leached out of bones (but I DO know it is leached out of bones: that is how they do it to get strontium readings for aging). But as you can see above, Calcium sulfate isn't very soluble (it's part of the " hard water " deposit you get on pipes). So if you add the right kind of sulfur (and I think we used sulfuric acid, but I'd need to look it up), then the stronger bonds of the sulfate pull the calcium out of solution into an insoluble salt. Then you weigh the salt to find out how much you got. You have to know the bond strengths and ideally find something that will pull the calcium out of solution but leave the magnesium. You could also evaporate it (like the eggshell experiment), and see the white calcium salts, which is ok with eggshell but with bones you would probably say the white stuff was just gelatin. As for saying it's dangerous to say that bone broths contain lots of calcium, why would it be dangerous? I don't think anyone is depending on them for all their calcium needs (who makes soup everyday?). But there is SOOOOO much literature about dissolving calcium out of bones with acetic acid that this, plus the evidence of " rotten bones " , is a real good indication that the calcium is in the water. I haven't heard any good evidence *against* it except the feeling that it should precipitate out (which goes against the chemistry of calcium salts) and one FDA report. It would be easy enough to calculate the maximum calcium salt load for water: I just have to remember the formula! But even if I did, I doubt you'd believe me. I'd guess you wouldn't even have to test the broth: just ask someone with some chemistry experience. Although ... the city will test my well water for minerals for $20 per mineral, maybe they'll test broth too ... Heidi Schuppenhauer Trillium Custom Software Inc. heidis@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 25, 2002 Report Share Posted May 25, 2002 > >By the way, why do think adding sulfuric acid would cause the stock > >to precipitate the minerals? I would expect that to simply > >*increase* it's solvent capacity with regard to calcium...not > >decrease it. > > > > > > : > > It comes from days long ago when I was pretty good at chemistry. Here are > some solubility rules: > > 1. All common compounds of Group I and ammonium ions are soluble. > 2. All nitrates, acetates, and chlorates are soluble. > 3. All binary compounds of the halogens (other than F) with metals are soluble, > except those of Ag, Hg(I), and Pb. Pb halides are soluble in hot water.) > 4. All sulfates are soluble, except those of barium, strontium, calcium, lead, > silver, and mercury (I). The latter three are slightly soluble. > 5. Except for rule 1, carbonates, hydroxides, oxides, silicates, and phosphates > are insoluble. > 6. Sulfides are insoluble except for calcium, barium, strontium, magnesium, > sodium, potassium, and ammonium. > > Basically, you can figure out the solubility of a salt, and how much of it > can be " held " in solution (there are formulas). I don't know specifically > what salt calcium forms when it is leached out of bones (but I DO know it > is leached out of bones: that is how they do it to get strontium readings > for aging). But as you can see above, Calcium sulfate isn't very soluble > (it's part of the " hard water " deposit you get on pipes). So if you add the > right kind of sulfur (and I think we used sulfuric acid, but I'd need to > look it up), then the stronger bonds of the sulfate pull the calcium out of > solution into an insoluble salt. Then you weigh the salt to find out how > much you got. > > You have to know the bond strengths and ideally find something that will > pull the calcium out of solution but leave the magnesium. You could also > evaporate it (like the eggshell experiment), and see the white calcium > salts, which is ok with eggshell but with bones you would probably say the > white stuff was just gelatin. > > As for saying it's dangerous to say that bone broths contain lots of > calcium, why would it be dangerous? I don't think anyone is depending on > them for all their calcium needs (who makes soup everyday?). But there is > SOOOOO much literature about dissolving calcium out of bones with acetic > acid that this, plus the evidence of " rotten bones " , is a real good > indication that the calcium is in the water. I haven't heard any good > evidence *against* it except the feeling that it should precipitate out > (which goes against the chemistry of calcium salts) and one FDA report. It > would be easy enough to calculate the maximum calcium salt load for water: > I just have to remember the formula! But even if I did, I doubt you'd > believe me. > > I'd guess you wouldn't even have to test the broth: just ask someone with > some chemistry experience. Although ... the city will test my well water > for minerals for $20 per mineral, maybe they'll test broth too ... > > > > Heidi Schuppenhauer > Trillium Custom Software Inc. > heidis@t... Heidi you gave up an exciting glamorous career in chemistry for computers? HaHaHaHa! Dennis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 25, 2002 Report Share Posted May 25, 2002 At 04:50 AM 5/25/2002 +0000, you wrote: >Heidi you gave up an exciting glamorous career in chemistry for >computers? HaHaHaHa! Dennis I'd like some smart remark answer, like, " I've had almost as many careers as Suze! " . Heidi Schuppenhauer Trillium Custom Software Inc. heidis@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 27, 2002 Report Share Posted May 27, 2002 At 04:50 AM 5/25/2002 +0000, you wrote: >Heidi you gave up an exciting glamorous career in chemistry for >computers? HaHaHaHa! Dennis >>>>>I'd like some smart remark answer, like, " I've had almost as many careers as Suze! " . ********hey, leave me out of this! <BG> i'm just impressed as heck with the detailed knowledge that you two programmers have of Ca solubility, and chemistry in general. this whole discussion is far more compelling than reading any chem book! Suze Fisher Web Design & Development http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/ mailto:s.fisher22@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.