Lots of calcium, was Re: leg cramps

[Guest guest]

Steve

Have you tried coral calcium?

Larry

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Veeneman

Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 4:15 PM

Subject: Lots of calcium, was Re: leg cramps

Don't try this at home... <grin>

I should have gotten some PH paper long ago, but

at the age of 50 I bought a roll a few months ago.

What fun! As a natural born experimenter I could

not resist taking my urine and saliva readings

every morning.

For over a decade my wife and I both agreed that if

we had a leg cramp we needed more calcium, and

taking calcium always helped alleviate the symptom,

but when I started taking PH measurements I had a

much more direct way to check on things.

After trying out all the calcium supplements in

the house without really dramatic effects I started

poking around the web with the Google search engine.

I looked up Calcium Lactate, which is what my stew

of soup bones and saurkraut is likely rich in, and

guessed at other ionic Calcium solutions.

When I hit on Calcium Acetate I found what I recall

may have been a Medline article, saying that if a

clinical worker needed to get a lot of Calcium into

someone in a hurry, to use it intravenously. Acetic

acid, as the article went on, is used ubiquitously

throughout the body, so presumably the patient gets

to keep a large portion of the Calcium so introduced.

This made sense to me, partly because I already

believed acetic acid to be the active feature of

the skin's acid mantle.

So right away I tried it, dissolving a big old

Calcium Carbonate tablet in an ounce of organic

apple cider vinegar and swilling it down after

all the foam disappeared. Ugh, not very tasty.

The next morning though, WOW! My urine PH was up a

whole integer. Normally my readings are on the acid

side, which makes sense due to all the meat I eat.

Right now this is the only technique I know of that

really definitely pushes my urine PH upwards that

much. I really needed it a few weeks ago, when

I sweat so much while spading up our garden that

the next day my urine PH was below 5.3. It took

two or three days to get it back to normal and I

nearly caught a cold or flu in the process. No

wonder my immune system seemed week after I ran

long distance foot races in the past!

Since then my brother suggested that if I deliberately

eat a calcium carbonate supplement during a meal

that I know will take a long time to digest then

my stomach acids will do something similar, using

Hydrochloric Acid instead of Acetic Acid instead.

I have less clear data about that so far though.

Anyway my point is that there is nothing like

really measuring what it going on. If you are

really brave you may want to taste your urine

every day like I do. Multidimensional information

there too for a minimum of cost or effort!

Comments?

Steve

=====

# Steve Veeneman - svnmn@...

# What do you really want...

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

At 02:15 PM 5/23/2002 -0700, you wrote:

>So right away I tried it, dissolving a big old

>Calcium Carbonate tablet in an ounce of organic

>apple cider vinegar and swilling it down after

>all the foam disappeared. Ugh, not very tasty.

>

>The next morning though, WOW! My urine PH was up a

>whole integer. Normally my readings are on the acid

>side, which makes sense due to all the meat I eat.

Wow! I AM impressed. (And I'll go out and get some PH paper: heck, it's

good for all kinds of experiments. After testing for pregnancy etc. I'm

pretty much up for anything).

This makes SO much sense. The acidosis website I saw listed " Alkalis " as a

cause of acidosis, maybe taking a acetic acid solution has the reverse

effect. Many calcium tabs are sold as Carbonate though, for some reason

(maybe because they dissolve in your stomach quickly?). I wonder what

effect lactic acid has, with all my kimchi?

BTW the Koreans typically eat their kimchi with little fish, shrimp, or

squid in it. The lactic acid, I'd presume, would dissolve the bones

somewhat so you'd have a bunch of calcium lactate in there. Since it seems

that their diet is a staple of pickles (esp. kimchi) and rice with some

meat thrown in, they'd be getting most of their calcium from the pickles,

as calcium lactate. The beef broths made with vinegar would be calcium acetate.

I also wonder if the leg cramps are always due to calcium/magnesium

deficiency or if the acid content of the blood is in there somewhere.

Cramps are listed as a side effect of acidosis too.

Heidi Schuppenhauer

Trillium Custom Software Inc.

heidis@...

[Guest guest]

Hi Shelia

I think you got me mixed up with Steve who I was responding to. Does anyone

have an opinion on coral calcium?

Larry

----- Original Message -----

From: h2ocolor1937

Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 8:52 PM

Subject: Lots of calcium, was Re: leg cramps

Hi Larry,

I eat a high protein diet too. I have even tried the urine and

saliva testing. I read about it at www.krispin.com. Krispin Sullivan

is writing a book about vitamin D, called " Naked at Noon " . It should

be is stores quite soon. Anyway I could not get my reading to be

alkaline either. You have shown me how to do that. It is interesting,

but I am not sure I am convinced that the acid alkaline business is

critical for optimal health. Are you? If so why?

Sheila

> Steve

>

> Have you tried coral calcium?

>

> Larry

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: Steve Veeneman

> @y...

> Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 4:15 PM

> Subject: Lots of calcium, was Re: leg cramps

>

>

> Don't try this at home... <grin>

>

> I should have gotten some PH paper long ago, but

> at the age of 50 I bought a roll a few months ago.

> What fun! As a natural born experimenter I could

> not resist taking my urine and saliva readings

> every morning.

>

> For over a decade my wife and I both agreed that if

> we had a leg cramp we needed more calcium, and

> taking calcium always helped alleviate the symptom,

> but when I started taking PH measurements I had a

> much more direct way to check on things.

>

> After trying out all the calcium supplements in

> the house without really dramatic effects I started

> poking around the web with the Google search engine.

> I looked up Calcium Lactate, which is what my stew

> of soup bones and saurkraut is likely rich in, and

> guessed at other ionic Calcium solutions.

>

> When I hit on Calcium Acetate I found what I recall

> may have been a Medline article, saying that if a

> clinical worker needed to get a lot of Calcium into

> someone in a hurry, to use it intravenously. Acetic

> acid, as the article went on, is used ubiquitously

> throughout the body, so presumably the patient gets

> to keep a large portion of the Calcium so introduced.

>

> This made sense to me, partly because I already

> believed acetic acid to be the active feature of

> the skin's acid mantle.

>

> So right away I tried it, dissolving a big old

> Calcium Carbonate tablet in an ounce of organic

> apple cider vinegar and swilling it down after

> all the foam disappeared. Ugh, not very tasty.

>

> The next morning though, WOW! My urine PH was up a

> whole integer. Normally my readings are on the acid

> side, which makes sense due to all the meat I eat.

>

> Right now this is the only technique I know of that

> really definitely pushes my urine PH upwards that

> much. I really needed it a few weeks ago, when

> I sweat so much while spading up our garden that

> the next day my urine PH was below 5.3. It took

> two or three days to get it back to normal and I

> nearly caught a cold or flu in the process. No

> wonder my immune system seemed week after I ran

> long distance foot races in the past!

>

> Since then my brother suggested that if I deliberately

> eat a calcium carbonate supplement during a meal

> that I know will take a long time to digest then

> my stomach acids will do something similar, using

> Hydrochloric Acid instead of Acetic Acid instead.

> I have less clear data about that so far though.

>

> Anyway my point is that there is nothing like

> really measuring what it going on. If you are

> really brave you may want to taste your urine

> every day like I do. Multidimensional information

> there too for a minimum of cost or effort!

>

> Comments?

>

> Steve

>

> =====

> # Steve Veeneman - svnmn@y...

> # What do you really want...

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

At 02:05 PM 5/24/2002 +0000, you wrote:

>The short answer is nope, not yet. My brother tried to get me

>interested in it just last week on the phone but I was not sold

>yet. He doesn't measure his PH, nor does he drink his you-know-what

>either so he had no first hand results to share. As you can tell

>I am into observation vs hype. I did check out the website

>my brother told me about, but the way coral calcium was presented

>seemed to me to be an excellent excuse for spending a lot of

>bucks on it, based on what, hearsay?

I keep going back to my college chemistry. Calcium is an element, " Ca " . It

bonds with various ions to form compounds. Some of those compounds are

soluable in stomach juices, some are not, but most of them leach out with

acids (hence the bone broths) and your stomach is pretty acid. Ground up

eggshells are probably as good a source as coral, unless there are some

great trace elements in coral. I've seen warnings against oyster shell

calcium though, because the oysters can grow where they can accumulate

heavy metals too, esp. mercury, which collects in their shells. I would

expect coral would have the same problem: it would collect " good " minerals

but also some bad ones.

Heidi Schuppenhauer

Trillium Custom Software Inc.

heidis@...

[Guest guest]

At 04:21 PM 5/24/2002 +0000, you wrote:

>I believe that the reason milk is able to hold so much more calcium

>is because it's a colloid of calcium-containing protein (calcium

>caseinate). While stock is also a colloid of the gelatin proteins,

>they aren't calcium-bound that I'm aware of. That would mean that

>the stock is only going to have the amount of calcium (and other

>minerals) that can be held in solution. Even the fairly acidic

>naturally carbonated spring waters only contain about 80 mg or less

>of calcium per 8 oz serving. I would imagine that stock would

>contain less than that rather than more.

:

OK, but when you make broth with 5 pounds of bones, and those bones end up

rotten and holey, where does all the stuff that leaches out *GO*? It's

either in the air or in the water, my vote is in the water.

In chemistry class we used to dissolve silver in acid and then precipitate

it out again, and really, you can dissolve a lot of the stuff in water as a

salt. Water is very ionic, it's darn good at dissolving stuff, you don't

need much acid. Look how much Sodium Chloride you can dissolve in water (I

do 2 cups per quart to make brine), and sodium is closely related to

calcium. 1000mg of calcium is just one gram, which is what, 1/4 tsp maybe?

I'd bet you can get a gram of calcium salt dissolved in 8 oz. water with no

problem at all.

Also, if the water was really oversaturated with calcium salts, you'd end

up with a white precipitate in your broth, which just doesn't happen.

As for USDA numbers on bone broth -- most bone broths are boiled for an

hour or two, not 20. Long-boiled broths are an expensive gourmet item, not

the " usual " broth the USDA probably measured.

Heidi Schuppenhauer

Trillium Custom Software Inc.

heidis@...

[Guest guest]

> OK, but when you make broth with 5 pounds of bones, and those bones

end up

> rotten and holey, where does all the stuff that leaches out *GO*?

It's

> either in the air or in the water, my vote is in the water.

I think a large majority of what's leaching out is the protein matrix

of the bone (the gelatin). What's left behind appears to me to be

more minerals without the protein. That would explain why it's

crumbly and gritty. The protein matrix of the bone is what gives it

much of it's structure and resiliency.

> need much acid. Look how much Sodium Chloride you can dissolve in

> water (I do 2 cups per quart to make brine), and sodium is closely

> related to calcium.

The comparison isn't that simple. The solubility isn't determined by

the component elements, but rather by the specific compound being

dissolved. Stable compounds don't dissolve easily. Unstable,

reactive compounds do dissolve easily. Table salt is very reactive

which is why if you pour it in a cut, it will hurt a lot. The

calcium compounds in bone are quite stable which is why they aren't

constantly trying to dissolve while they're in our body. If you

leave an ounce of bone in a bucket of lukewarm water overnight,

you'll still have bone in the morning. If you do the same with table

salt, it will dissolve. Calcium carbonate is another example. If it

were as soluble as table salt, coral reefs would be in serious

trouble. There's no way that the reef could persist over time

without dissolving.

> Also, if the water was really oversaturated with calcium salts,

> you'd end up with a white precipitate in your broth, which just

> doesn't happen.

That's exactly my point actually...the water *isn't* saturated with

minerals. That was the first thing that made me question the mineral

conent of stocks. When you reduce stock to make a demi-glace, you

don't get any precipates. If there were a significant quantity of

mineral dissolved in stock, I would certainly expect precipitate from

something as concentrated as demi-glace...especially once it gets

refrigerated. None of that happens. I think that's suspicious if

there's supposed to be significant quantities of minerals dissolved

in it.

> As for USDA numbers on bone broth -- most bone broths are boiled

> for an hour or two, not 20. Long-boiled broths are an expensive

> gourmet item, not the " usual " broth the USDA probably measured.

I'm not convinced that makes a huge difference. The main thing that

seems to happen with longer boiling times is that you get more

gelatin. If the calcium and other minerals are readily soluble in

the slightly acidic broth, I'd expect them to readily dissolve...not

require a day of simmering. If they're not readily soluble, and they

require that much heat to be forced into solution...then they should

also precipitate out quite easily...certainly after as much

concentration as demi-glace has...and definitely after refrigeration.

It just doesn't add up, in my opinion, that stock provides calcium in

amounts that can be considered a significant calcium contribution.

I'll buy the notion that they are a good contributor of small

quantities of minerals that are well balanced, but my gut tells me

that the notion of them being " calcium-rich " is just not right.

At any rate, I'm not betting my health on the fact that any nutrition

writer has *assumed* that bone broths are calcium-rich. When I see

lab tests proving that they are a significant source of calcium, I'll

be willing to depend on it as a staple calcium source. Until then,

I'm going to take the conservative route and assume that they *help*

but are not a sufficient calcium source unto themselves.

[Guest guest]

On Fri, 24 May 2002 16:21:53 -0000 " skroyer " <scott@...> writes:

> I don't know for sure. I keep getting this memory of a porta-john

> worker on a radio show once describing the mounds of vitamin pills

> he has on the grate of the drain he empties in the truck into. In

> some cases he says he can actually read the lable of the vitamin

> pills! Gross, eh? Anyway I really am thinking about making sure

> stuff gets dissolved.

I know I'm being a curmudgeon, but I'm not sure I believe the guy.

The government requires specific dissolution times for vitamins. I

can maybe believe that some people's digestion is sufficiently

impaired that they couldn't dissolve even cotton candy much less

vitamin pills...however, I'd find it hard to believe that there are

that many vitamin poppers...that are that digestively impaired...that

use porta-johns...

******I heard this on a tape by Dr. Wallach called _Dead Doctors

Don't Lie_. While the gov't regs may say one thing, I hear this spoken of

a lot, the inability of the body to absorb many vitamins in the forms

they are sold. Any one care to comment?

Bianca

[Guest guest]

Yes! This is true. I have first hand experience. About ten years ago, I was

having a lot of lower back problems. I was taking a LOT of a popular all

natural supplement at that time. When he showed me the X-ray, there sat all

those supplements I dutifully took day in and day out! They looked exactly like

when I swallowed them. They hadn't dissolved at all and they were in the end of

my colon on their way out. Needless to say, I quit those supplements. It was

very discouraging because I had lots of tapes and literature that when on and on

how good they were and how organic and rich the soil was where their ingredients

were harvested, etc., etc. I now only take what my chiropractor says is good

for me through CRA.

My chiropractor also showed me an X-ray of a woman that was pregnant and had

been very anemic, so took tons of iron supplements. Well, soon after birth she

had acute pain in her abdomen. The X-ray revealed that all those iron

supplements she took had lodged in her colon!She had to have emergency surgery.

So, with these experiences, I think it is very true that a LOT of vitamins,

supplements, etc. are flushed down that toilet!

----- Original Message -----

From: bianca3@...

Sent: Monday, June 03, 2002 3:58 PM

Subject: Re: Lots of calcium, was Re: leg cramps

On Fri, 24 May 2002 16:21:53 -0000 " skroyer " <scott@...> writes:

> I don't know for sure. I keep getting this memory of a porta-john

> worker on a radio show once describing the mounds of vitamin pills

> he has on the grate of the drain he empties in the truck into. In

> some cases he says he can actually read the lable of the vitamin

> pills! Gross, eh? Anyway I really am thinking about making sure

> stuff gets dissolved.

I know I'm being a curmudgeon, but I'm not sure I believe the guy.

The government requires specific dissolution times for vitamins. I

can maybe believe that some people's digestion is sufficiently

impaired that they couldn't dissolve even cotton candy much less

vitamin pills...however, I'd find it hard to believe that there are

that many vitamin poppers...that are that digestively impaired...that

use porta-johns...

******I heard this on a tape by Dr. Wallach called _Dead Doctors

Don't Lie_. While the gov't regs may say one thing, I hear this spoken of

a lot, the inability of the body to absorb many vitamins in the forms

they are sold. Any one care to comment?

Bianca

[Guest guest]

Sharon,

What an incredible story!

Dr. Ron Schmid, who wrote 'Traditional Foods are your Best Medicine' had a

blurb at the WAP conference about dietary supplements. In it he explains

that nearly all supplements contain stearates, which are manufacturing

agents use as lubricants to speed up production. The stearates cut the

dissolution rate severely, hence limiting absorption. So he recommends that

people take additive-free supplements.

Peace,

Kris , gardening in northwest Ohio

----- Original Message -----

From: " sharon wagner " <asejmlae@...>

< >

Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2002 10:24 AM

Subject: Re: Lots of calcium, was Re: leg cramps

> Yes! This is true. I have first hand experience. About ten years ago, I

was having a lot of lower back problems. I was taking a LOT of a popular

all natural supplement at that time. When he showed me the X-ray, there sat

all those supplements I dutifully took day in and day out! They looked

exactly like when I swallowed them. They hadn't dissolved at all and they

were in the end of my colon on their way out. Needless to say, I quit those

supplements. It was very discouraging because I had lots of tapes and

literature that when on and on how good they were and how organic and rich

the soil was where their ingredients were harvested, etc., etc. I now only

take what my chiropractor says is good for me through CRA.

> My chiropractor also showed me an X-ray of a woman that was pregnant and

had been very anemic, so took tons of iron supplements. Well, soon after

birth she had acute pain in her abdomen. The X-ray revealed that all those

iron supplements she took had lodged in her colon!She had to have emergency

surgery. So, with these experiences, I think it is very true that a LOT of

vitamins, supplements, etc. are flushed down that toilet!

> ----- Original Message -----

[Guest guest]

>From: " Kris " <Kris.@...>

>Dr. Ron Schmid, who wrote 'Traditional Foods are your Best Medicine' had a

>blurb at the WAP conference about dietary supplements. In it he explains

>that nearly all supplements contain stearates, which are manufacturing

>agents use as lubricants to speed up production. The stearates cut the

>dissolution rate severely, hence limiting absorption. So he recommends

>that

>people take additive-free supplements.

Stearates? Like the kind in beef?

_________________________________________________________________

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

From: " Berg " <brberg@...>

< >

Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 1:45 PM

Subject: Re: Lots of calcium, was Re: leg cramps

> >From: " Kris " <Kris.@...>

> >Dr. Ron Schmid, who wrote 'Traditional Foods are your Best Medicine' had

a

> >blurb at the WAP conference about dietary supplements. In it he explains

> >that nearly all supplements contain stearates, which are manufacturing

> >agents use as lubricants to speed up production. The stearates cut the

> >dissolution rate severely, hence limiting absorption. So he recommends

> >that

> >people take additive-free supplements.

>

> Stearates? Like the kind in beef?

Could be, but they are probably highly processed and not very digestible. My

husband said " They sound waxy "

Peace,

Kris , gardening in northwest Ohio