Re: efa amounts and ratios, was New/introduction

[Guest guest]

> *****scott, i have to agree with paul on this one. last year i did

No you don't! :-)

> problems barfers are having with their dogs are a result of

> excessive concentrations of LA from all the chicken some of them

> feed. especially large amounts of chicken bones where fat is

> concentrated. what i found was that:

First problem I have is that BARFers tend to feed disproportionately

huge amounts of chicken because they're easy to grind. I haven't

suggested that anybody (including dogs!) eat large amounts of any

kind of chicken...much less factory farmed chicken.

> 1. factory farmed chickens are between 20-25% fat, or thereabouts

> (depending on the source of information).

Um, who said anything about factory farmed chickens? Not me! Ich

sagte NICHTS! :-)

I talked about grain *supplementation* of free-ranging or pastured

chickens who get the *bulk* of their diet from grass and bugs.

Unfortunately, they aren't ruminants, so they still need to get

calories from somewhere. You're generally either going to wind up

with them eating some kind of seed or grain on their own...or you're

going to feed them something like that yourself.

On top of that, no pastured or free-ranging chicken is going to come

close to the level of total fat that a factory farmed chicken has.

So whatever imbalance there is going to have a far more dilute impact

on the diet as a whole than would a factory chicken.

I'm also skeptical about a whole bunch of other stuff that goes along

with this that I won't go into here. Let's just say that I think

that " optimal " EFA ratios are overstated (no way did we *ever* have a

1:1 ratio!), and the importance of being in that optimal range is

also overstated. It just doesn't pass the smell test in my opinion.

In fact, it smells almost like raw eggs! ;-) (inside joke, sorry!)

[Guest guest]

> problems barfers are having with their dogs are a result of

> excessive concentrations of LA from all the chicken some of them

> feed. especially large amounts of chicken bones where fat is

> concentrated. what i found was that:

>>>>>First problem I have is that BARFers tend to feed disproportionately

huge amounts of chicken because they're easy to grind. I haven't

suggested that anybody (including dogs!) eat large amounts of any

kind of chicken...much less factory farmed chicken.

*****yep, it's also the size of the bones that make them a favorite among

barfers, plus the fact that billinghurst *seemed to* heavily promote them in

his first book. i was just giving you the background as to why i decided to

look into chicken lipid profiles.

> 1. factory farmed chickens are between 20-25% fat, or thereabouts

> (depending on the source of information).

>>>>>>>Um, who said anything about factory farmed chickens? Not me! Ich

sagte NICHTS! :-)

I talked about grain *supplementation* of free-ranging or pastured

chickens who get the *bulk* of their diet from grass and bugs.

********da...whoops! how quickly i forget the origins of a thread! OK,

disregard everything i wrote

>>>>>>I'm also skeptical about a whole bunch of other stuff that goes along

with this that I won't go into here. Let's just say that I think

that " optimal " EFA ratios are overstated (no way did we *ever* have a

1:1 ratio!), and the importance of being in that optimal range is

also overstated.

******for dogs, as well as humans i look at the historical/evolutionary

ratio (as much as is known about it) as a guide for what's probably a

ballpark healthy ratio. i don't think any factory farmed animal lipid

profile is in the ballpark.

>>>>>It just doesn't pass the smell test in my opinion.

In fact, it smells almost like raw eggs! ;-)

*****at least you didn't say 'wheatgrass juice.'

heh.

Suze Fisher

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

> ******for dogs, as well as humans i look at the

> historical/evolutionary ratio (as much as is known about it) as a

> guide for what's probably a ballpark healthy ratio. i don't think

> any factory farmed animal lipid profile is in the ballpark.

Right. We know it's not 20:1, and I'm convinced it's not 1:1 ...but

somewhere in between and closer to 1:1 than to 20:1 :-)

> *****at least you didn't say 'wheatgrass juice.'

Wow, I didn't mean to make it sound quite *that* bad!

Heh, yourself! ;-)

[Guest guest]

> >>>>> True, but at the same time, chickens, not being ruminants, are

> > going to act

> > as concentrators of those unsaturated oils found in grains.

> > Grain-fed beef is bad, but I'd take it over grain-fed chicken (and

> > grain-fed pork) any day

> > of the week.

> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.Suze,

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>How do you know chickens concentrate

unsaturated oils found in grains? Grains (fresh, unground) have

little unsaturated fat anyway don't they? Why would you " take " grain

fed beef over grain fed chickens and pork. They all eat grain even

in the wilds of yesteryear I imagine. Dennis

>

<>>>>>>>>>>clipped by dennis

> That's a max total of 1/16th of the critter being linoleic acid!

That's a

> lot, imo. ,

Suze, Do you mean a chicken by weight is 1/16 LA? A 3 pound chicken

would have about 3 ounces LA. Wouldn't that make them valuable like

gold or something? What is our recommended daily dose of LA? Dennis

>

>

>

>

>

> Suze Fisher

> Web Design & Development

> http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

> mailto:s.fisher22@v...

[Guest guest]

---

> *****at least you didn't say 'wheatgrass juice.'

>

> heh.

>

>

>

> Suze Fisher

> Web Design & Development

> http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

> mailto:s.fisher22@v...

>>>>>>>>>>,

>>>>>>>>>>Did you already cover this? If so just send the reference!Is

there a problem with wheatgrass ingestion, in your opinion, of course.

PS what was decided about the nutritive value of salads by the way?

With or without wheatgrass? Dennis

[Guest guest]

> Did you already cover this? If so just send the reference!Is

> there a problem with wheatgrass ingestion, in your opinion, of

> course.

Yes there is a problem with it, it's disgusting! :-) Other than

that, I don't know of anything specific. However, I'm also not aware

of anything that wheatgrass provides that isn't also able to be found

in non-disgusting whole foods. ...but then I'm obviously biased from

the trauma of having tried it a few times. ;-)

> PS what was decided about the nutritive value of salads by the

way?

Salads are fine. Tasty too. Have some salads, some cooked greens,

some fresh vegetables, some cooked. I never meant to imply that raw

vegetables were bad or useless; just that they're overhyped, IMO.

Cooking helps some vegetables be digested. Sure it destroys some

nutrients, but it also destroys some toxins and makes other nutrients

more available.

[Guest guest]

-- In @y..., " Suze Fisher " <s.fisher22@v...> wrote:

> >>>>> True, but at the same time, chickens, not being ruminants, are

> > going to act

> > as concentrators of those unsaturated oils found in grains.

> > Grain-fed beef is bad, but I'd take it over grain-fed chicken (and

> > grain-fed pork) any day

> > of the week.

> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.Suze,

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>How do you know chickens concentrate

unsaturated oils found in grains?

*****because i've read lipid profiles of them and read some stuff on how

producers manipulate the feed to produce certain fat profiles. besides, only

ruminants have specialized rumen bacteria that can really alter ingested

lipids. chickens don't have rumens, so the lipid profile they ingest is

pretty much the one that ends up in their body.

>>>> Grains (fresh, unground) have

little unsaturated fat anyway don't they?

***corn and oats, for example, tend to have more unsaturated than saturated

fats and the n-6/n-3 ratio is quite high.

>>>>>>Why would you " take " grain

fed beef over grain fed chickens and pork. They all eat grain even

in the wilds of yesteryear I imagine. Dennis

*******i didn't say anything about pork. but i would take grain-fed beef

over grain-fed chicken because grain-fed beef is not nearly as high in LA as

is grain-fed chicken. chicken just seems like a concentrated source of LA to

me. AND, beef has concentrations of other nutrients such as carnitine, b

vits and others that chicken is lower in. i just think red meat in general

is more nutritious. if some of WAPs healthy primitives were regularly dining

on chicken, i'd rethink it.

>

<>>>>>>>>>>clipped by dennis

> That's a max total of 1/16th of the critter being linoleic acid!

That's a

> lot, imo. ,

>>>>>Suze, Do you mean a chicken by weight is 1/16 LA?

******no, i meant that 1/16th of it's fat is LA. chicken is about 20-25%

total fat and about 20-25% pf that is LA, although i'm not sure if that's

measured by weight or not. apparently, i didn't word it correctly though!

>>>>>>A 3 pound chicken

would have about 3 ounces LA. Wouldn't that make them valuable like

gold or something? What is our recommended daily dose of LA? Dennis

****i don't know why it would be like gold..? enig writes, in " Know Your

Fats " that the minimum amount of LA needed is 2-3% of calories. and the

minimum amount of LNA is 0.5%-1.5%. but these are 'minimums' - probably to

prevent deficiency symptoms - they're not *optimal* amounts, which are not

known, and will vary greatly among individuals anyway, imo.

Suze Fisher

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

> > >>>>> True, but at the same time, chickens, not being ruminants,

are

> > > going to act

> > > as concentrators of those unsaturated oils found in grains.

> > > Grain-fed beef is bad, but I'd take it over grain-fed chicken

(and

> > > grain-fed pork) any day

> > > of the week.

> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.Suze,

> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>How do you know chickens concentrate

> unsaturated oils found in grains?

>

> *****because i've read lipid profiles of them and read some stuff on

how

> producers manipulate the feed to produce certain fat profiles.

besides, only

> ruminants have specialized rumen bacteria that can really alter

ingested

> lipids. chickens don't have rumens, so the lipid profile they ingest

is

> pretty much the one that ends up in their body.

>

>

> >>>> Grains (fresh, unground) have

> little unsaturated fat anyway don't they?

>

> ***corn and oats, for example, tend to have more unsaturated than

saturated

> fats and the n-6/n-3 ratio is quite high.

>

>

> >>>>>>Why would you " take " grain

> fed beef over grain fed chickens and pork. They all eat grain even

> in the wilds of yesteryear I imagine. Dennis

>

> *******i didn't say anything about pork. but i would take grain-fed

beef

> over grain-fed chicken because grain-fed beef is not nearly as high

in LA as

> is grain-fed chicken. chicken just seems like a concentrated source

of LA to

> me. AND, beef has concentrations of other nutrients such as

carnitine, b

> vits and others that chicken is lower in. i just think red meat in

general

> is more nutritious. if some of WAPs healthy primitives were

regularly dining

> on chicken, i'd rethink it.

> >

> <>>>>>>>>>>clipped by dennis

> > That's a max total of 1/16th of the critter being linoleic acid!

> That's a

> > lot, imo. ,

>

> >>>>>Suze, Do you mean a chicken by weight is 1/16 LA?

>

> ******no, i meant that 1/16th of it's fat is LA. chicken is about

20-25%

> total fat and about 20-25% pf that is LA, although i'm not sure if

that's

> measured by weight or not. apparently, i didn't word it correctly

though!

>

>

> >>>>>>A 3 pound chicken

> would have about 3 ounces LA. Wouldn't that make them valuable like

> gold or something? What is our recommended daily dose of LA? Dennis

>

>

> ****i don't know why it would be like gold..? enig writes, in " Know

Your

> Fats " that the minimum amount of LA needed is 2-3% of calories. and

the

> minimum amount of LNA is 0.5%-1.5%. but these are 'minimums' -

probably to

> prevent deficiency symptoms - they're not *optimal* amounts, which

are not

> known, and will vary greatly among individuals anyway, imo.

>

> Suze Fisher

> Web Design & Development

> http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

> mailto:s.fisher22@v...

Suze do you know where to get the fat profile of whole wheat? That is

what I feed our chickens, for grain that is........ I never thought

much about bacteria in the rumen digesting fat. And I just assumed

chickens metabolise all stuff eaten(turn it into something else)

rather than concentrate it. When I butchered a couple of our chickens

this spring I found all sorts of bright yellow fat in the body cavity.

But I didn't eat that fat. I suppose that fat had lots of those

desirable fatty acids and vitamins in it.And these chickens are eating

grass most of the day. And after a rain they eat worms most of the

day. My question is this: why aren't they as nutritious(except for a

few nutrients each specie is specificly known for) as any other free

grazing/range/organic animal? cow, pig, duck or rabbit? I thought

lots of LA would be valuable like gold. Apparently it's a kind of

superfood in NT circles. Well thanks for your answers. Dennis

[Guest guest]

> I thought

> lots of LA would be valuable like gold. Apparently it's a kind of

> superfood in NT circles. Well thanks for your answers. Dennis

Dennis,

You're thinking of alpha linoleic acid (an omega 3 fat)...not

Linoleic Acid (an omega 6 fat also known as LNA, ALA). The average

american consumes many times more LA than they need. NT encourages

greatly limiting omega 6 consumption and increasing omega 3

consumption so that the ratio of the two is approximately 1:2 of

omega6:omega3. That's why we try not to eat vegetable oils.

Vegetable oils (corn, soybean, sunflower, safflower, etc) are all

extremely high in LA. All grains are also very high in

LA...including wheat.

In short, it's practically the opposite of a superfood in NT circles.

[Guest guest]

Thanks for fielding that

>>>>You're thinking of alpha linoleic acid (an omega 3 fat)...not

Linoleic Acid (an omega 6 fat also known as LNA, ALA).

***a minor point here and maybe you meant to write this, but omega 3 alpha

linoleic acid is otherwise known as LNA and ALA. there are no other acronyms

for linoleic acid (LA) AFAIK.

Suze Fisher

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

> Thanks for fielding that

>

>

> >>>>You're thinking of alpha linoleic acid (an omega 3 fat)...not

> Linoleic Acid (an omega 6 fat also known as LNA, ALA).

>

> ***a minor point here and maybe you meant to write this, but omega 3

alpha

> linoleic acid is otherwise known as LNA and ALA. there are no other

acronyms

> for linoleic acid (LA) AFAIK.

>

> Suze Fisher

> Web Design & Development

> http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

> mailto:s.fisher22@v...

FYI and you probably know LA is an essential fatty acid as we can not

synthesize it in our body. And I probably was thinking of alpha

linoleic acid in this post.. So are we getting too much LA in general

or could it be too much of other omega-6's.? When I see ALA I think

of alanine, an amino acid. And LNA for some reason was reminding me

of linolenic acid. Do you have these abbreviations posted somewhere

accessible? And where do you easily find the fatty acid profile of

foods? Dennis

[Guest guest]

> linoleic acid in this post.. So are we getting too much LA in

> general or could it be too much of other omega-6's.?

Both actually. We get too much omega 6 in virtually every form. The

one exception is GLA which is synthesized in the body but is rare in

foods. Some people have difficulty synthesizing GLA which makes it a

very important fatty acid for them to get via supplements. That's

what borage oil and evening primrose oil are for.

> And LNA for some reason was reminding me

> of linolenic acid.

That's right. Linolenic acid is another name for ALA/LNA. Suze is

right, I had a typo in the last post when I said that LNA and ALA

were other names for LA. I meant to say that LNA and ALA are other

names for alpha linolenic acid...which was my other typo...it's alpha

linolenic acid, not alpha linoleic acid.

> And where do you easily find the fatty acid profile of

> foods? Dennis

I generally go off the USDA database, but that's not reliable for

analyzing grass-fed products. A lot of the information isn't readily

available in compiled form. You have to hunt for it and assemble the

pieces.

[Guest guest]

> ***a minor point here and maybe you meant to write this, but omega

> 3 alpha linoleic acid is otherwise known as LNA and ALA. there are

> no other acronyms for linoleic acid (LA) AFAIK.

Thanks Suze. You're right. Actually, that post was riddled with

typos. I need to wait to respond when I'm in a hurry. Not only did

I mis-associate LNA and ALA with LA, but I also was calling ALA alpha

linolEIc acid (incorrect) instead of alpha linolENIc acid (correct).

[Guest guest]

> > ***a minor point here and maybe you meant to write this, but omega

> > 3 alpha linoleic acid is otherwise known as LNA and ALA. there are

> > no other acronyms for linoleic acid (LA) AFAIK.

>

> Thanks Suze. You're right. Actually, that post was riddled with

> typos. I need to wait to respond when I'm in a hurry. Not only did

> I mis-associate LNA and ALA with LA, but I also was calling ALA

alpha

> linolEIc acid (incorrect) instead of alpha linolENIc acid (correct).

>

>

>>>>>>>>>>>>Here's something " VERY INTERESTING " ! Bacteria do not

contain any polyunsaturated fatty acids. Found it in my old nutrition

or biochem book, one or the other. Now I can't find it again. So eat

bacteria, eh! Don't ask me. Dennis

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

From: " skroyer " <scott@...>

> You're thinking of alpha linoleic acid (an omega 3 fat)...not

> Linoleic Acid (an omega 6 fat also known as LNA, ALA). The average

> american consumes many times more LA than they need. NT encourages

> greatly limiting omega 6 consumption and increasing omega 3

> consumption so that the ratio of the two is approximately 1:2 of

> omega6:omega3.

It's 2:1, isn't it?

[Guest guest]

--- Hi ,

Have you seen Enig's book, " Know Your Fats " ? I thought this

might be the place to find the fatty acid profiles of food. If not

she she might be an excellent person to e-mail to find out where to

find this information.

Sheila

In @y..., " skroyer " <scott@k...> wrote:

> > linoleic acid in this post.. So are we getting too much LA in

> > general or could it be too much of other omega-6's.?

>

> Both actually. We get too much omega 6 in virtually every form.

The

> one exception is GLA which is synthesized in the body but is rare

in

> foods. Some people have difficulty synthesizing GLA which makes it

a

> very important fatty acid for them to get via supplements. That's

> what borage oil and evening primrose oil are for.

>

>

> > And LNA for some reason was reminding me

> > of linolenic acid.

>

> That's right. Linolenic acid is another name for ALA/LNA. Suze is

> right, I had a typo in the last post when I said that LNA and ALA

> were other names for LA. I meant to say that LNA and ALA are other

> names for alpha linolenic acid...which was my other typo...it's

alpha

> linolenic acid, not alpha linoleic acid.

>

> > And where do you easily find the fatty acid profile of

> > foods? Dennis

>

> I generally go off the USDA database, but that's not reliable for

> analyzing grass-fed products. A lot of the information isn't

readily

> available in compiled form. You have to hunt for it and assemble

the

> pieces.

>

>

[Guest guest]

> > consumption so that the ratio of the two is approximately 1:2 of

> > omega6:omega3.

>

> It's 2:1, isn't it?

Yeah, you're right. You know, I should just retract that whole

post. I mangled more than I got right. I was practically stepping

out the door as I typed it, and it shows in how incoherent the

finished product was... ;-)

[Guest guest]

> --- Hi ,

> Have you seen Enig's book, " Know Your Fats " ? I thought this

> might be the place to find the fatty acid profiles of food. If not

> she she might be an excellent person to e-mail to find out where to

> find this information.

> Sheila

Hi Sheila,

I'm familiar with it, but I haven't actually read it. I think she

deals more with the details of the fats than she does with the

details of the foods that contain the fats. I don't really know

though; that's just the impression that I had.

[Guest guest]

> --- Hi ,

> Have you seen Enig's book, " Know Your Fats " ? I thought this

> might be the place to find the fatty acid profiles of food. If not

> she she might be an excellent person to e-mail to find out where to

> find this information.

> Sheila

>>>>>I'm familiar with it, but I haven't actually read it. I think she

deals more with the details of the fats than she does with the

details of the foods that contain the fats. I don't really know

though; that's just the impression that I had.

****Yep! you're right. i use it as a reference all the time. she goes into

great detail about the fatty acid profile of various fats and oils, but as

far as the FA content of *foods* she has about 12 pages of charts at the

back of the book. and that data is all from the ESHA Food Processor

(http://www.esha.com/foodpro.htm) and the USDA Handbook 8. so it's just as

well to get the same info off the USDA database site, i'd imagine

(http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/cgi-bin/nut_search.pl).

Suze Fisher

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...