RE: garlic, oil and poison?

June 23, 2002

At 12:11 AM 6/23/2002 +0100, you wrote:

>when this was first put to me, it seemed to be the nutritional equivalent

>of an urban-myth. here goes.

>a friend of mine was picking my brain about garlic and it's healing

>qualities over the phone. then she wanted to know if I could explain why

>is it so dangerous to leave garlic in oil, say overnight in the fridge, as

>she's been told by two other friends who've attended some well known

>cookery courses, one in the US the other in France, where they've been

>given severe warnings against ever consuming a mixture of garlic in oil

>unless it's absolutely fresh. apparantly if you leave the two together

>they metamorphose into this lethal poison!!! she's been told about a case

>in the US where people were taken to hospital or may have even died as a

>result. so far so mythical...

>I thought it doesn't make sense scientifically. garlic is a potent

>antiviral, antifungal, antimicrobial substance and oil, well do I need to

>go on???

>any takes on this bizarre story from anyone?

>Thanks,

>Dedy

It's not mythological at all. If you put garlic in oil, it is in an

anearobic environment (no air). And garlic doesn't contain, I guess, the

lacto-bacteria needed to ferment it. So it doesn't ferment, it gets eaten

by the bacteria that produce botulism, and people get very sick, and there

are some fatalities every year from it. This is one of the reasons I was

hesitant to try lacto-fermentation!

I believe the reason this DOESN'T happen when you make kimchee is 1) there

are plenty of the correct bacteria in cabbage, and 2) you add salt and

possibly vinegar to slow down the botulism bacteria until the lacto

bacteria take over. Botulism bacteria hate acidic solutions, so once the

lacto guys take over you are safe. But if the stuff smells bad (not like

lacto bacilli), then don't taste it! Botulism toxin is very, very potent.

Another common cause of botulism, BTW, is baked potatoes wrapped in foil

and placed in the fridge ...

Heidi

June 23, 2002

>>>>>>>>.when this was first put to me, it seemed to be the nutritional

equivalent of an urban-myth. here goes.

a friend of mine was picking my brain about garlic and it's healing

qualities over the phone. then she wanted to know if I could explain why is

it so dangerous to leave garlic in oil, say overnight in the fridge, as

she's been told by two other friends who've attended some well known cookery

courses, one in the US the other in France, where they've been given severe

warnings against ever consuming a mixture of garlic in oil unless it's

absolutely fresh. apparantly if you leave the two together they metamorphose

into this lethal poison!!! she's been told about a case in the US where

people were taken to hospital or may have even died as a result. so far so

mythical...

I thought it doesn't make sense scientifically. garlic is a potent

antiviral, antifungal, antimicrobial substance and oil, well do I need to go

on???

any takes on this bizarre story from anyone?

Thanks,

Dedy

*****well, i would surely be dead if this were true since i eat 'unfresh'

salad dressing with oil and garlic nearly daily and have been for years. my

mom's been making this type of dressing and leaving it in the fridge for

days or weeks for as long as i can remember.

i make a batch and use it for the next week or two. not dead yet, but will

let you know if and when this combo does indeed kill me

Suze Fisher

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

June 23, 2002

> I believe the reason this DOESN'T happen when you make kimchee is

1) there

> are plenty of the correct bacteria in cabbage, and 2) you add salt

and

> possibly vinegar to slow down the botulism bacteria until the lacto

> bacteria take over. Botulism bacteria hate acidic solutions, so

once the

> lacto guys take over you are safe.

So, adding a tablespoon or so of vinegar (or salt) to our lacto-

fermenting food will keep botulism at bay but still allow the good

guys to continue to multiply, even though it may be at a slower

rate? A small amount of vinegar won't kill the good guys, just slow

them down? Am I getting this right? And, this small amount of salt

or vinegar is enough to keep botulism from growing?

It sounds like the reason for the bad garlic/oil mixture has to do

with it possibly not having any salt or vinegar in the mix? So, any

non-acidic fruit or vegetable that you are going to preserve must

have either salt or vinegar in it? Do you think that a typical

canning and preserving book (not for it's method) would be a good

source for telling which fruits and vegetables have low acid levels

and need acid added for preserving, and which have enough acid in

them, not requiring added acid? I keep forgetting that lemon or lime

(?) juice can be used as well for added acid content, correct? Any

acidic medium will keep the botulism at bay, right? What are some

other ones?

Peace and Love of Christ be with you,

Robin

June 23, 2002

At 09:11 PM 6/22/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>*****well, i would surely be dead if this were true since i eat 'unfresh'

>salad dressing with oil and garlic nearly daily and have been for years. my

>mom's been making this type of dressing and leaving it in the fridge for

>days or weeks for as long as i can remember.

>i make a batch and use it for the next week or two. not dead yet, but will

>let you know if and when this combo does indeed kill me

I should add to my previous post that the garlic issue usually happens

with *whole* or chopped cloves of garlic that have been stored for too long

in the

fridge (i.e. " infused oils " ) ... vinegar mixes aren't a problem, I think,

because the

garlic settles in the " vinegar " part and is protected by the acid. And I'd

guess a week

or two wouldn't be a problem for just the oil, if it's in the fridge and

the fridge is cold.

Here is a more official take on chopped garlic in oil:

http://www3.bc.sympatico.ca/hospitalitynorth/fn-garlc.htm

This type of product has caused two Botulism outbreaks. In 1989, three

persons in New York became seriously ill with Botulism poisoning after a

non-preserved Garlic-and-oil product used to make garlic bread was stored

at room temperature. A major outbreak of Botulism in Vancouver in 1985 was

epidemiologically associated with improper temperature storage of a similar

Garlic-and-oil product.

....

Home-made mixtures of Garlic-and-oil also pose a health threat unless they

are refrigerated at all times. To eliminate the potential for food

poisoning, these products should be made fresh and used immediately.

Leftover quantities should be discarded.

-- Heidi

June 23, 2002

Robin-

>So, adding a tablespoon or so of vinegar (or salt) to our lacto-

>fermenting food will keep botulism at bay but still allow the good

>guys to continue to multiply, even though it may be at a slower

>rate?

Maybe, but maybe not. Whey (providing it's homemade) will also acidify the

mixture right off the bat, and since it's the source of lacto-bacilli, it

won't compete with the lacto-bacteria required for the ferment, whereas raw

vinegar might.

-

June 23, 2002

At 05:22 AM 6/23/2002 +0000, you wrote:

>So, adding a tablespoon or so of vinegar (or salt) to our lacto-

>fermenting food will keep botulism at bay but still allow the good

>guys to continue to multiply, even though it may be at a slower

>rate? A small amount of vinegar won't kill the good guys, just slow

>them down? Am I getting this right? And, this small amount of salt

>or vinegar is enough to keep botulism from growing?

Well, on some of this the best thing is to have a Granny whose kitchen you

have grown up in, and you just do it the way she did! I know that adding

some salt and vinegar works, and it doesn't mold, at least for the vegies I've

tried so far. Is it the best or ideal? I don't know, and it may depend on

the vegie.

Adding whey doesn't hurt either: I prefer to add " kimchee juice " from the

easier to get for me, but really, you don't need to stress over it.

There is no gaurantee that botulism *won't* grow, which is what kept me

from doing this for a long time. But I talked to people who had done it

(Korean) and read a good book on how the French do it (Keeping food Fresh),

and the risk seems minimal. The things that tend to go wrong are

" sliminess " and

mold, but neither of those is botulism. Botulism seems to be a very fragile

bacteria, and only grows where it has little competition (like in

almost-sterile

canned goods), and it doesn't smell the same. If the food smells " acid "

and clean, it seems to be safe. If it doesn't smell right -- don't taste it!

Also -- you eat botulism bacteria all the time. The bacteria that cause it

are very

common and very difficult to kill, and they don't damage youF. It's only when

they replicate for awhile that they produce a toxin, which will paralyze

you (botox --

they inject it into movie-star faces).

Also, for anything like fish or meat, if you get into that -- use a good

starter

culture (whey or kefir) for sure.

>It sounds like the reason for the bad garlic/oil mixture has to do

>with it possibly not having any salt or vinegar in the mix? So, any

>non-acidic fruit or vegetable that you are going to preserve must

>have either salt or vinegar in it?

That's what I do: actually anything that I'm storing or serving at room

temp usually

has live bacteria in it (like kefir), or vinegar, or is salty. But I'm

paranoid too, and

serving other people. I'm guessing on the garlic/oil mix: see the earlier

post for

a good link. I DO mix garlic and oil -- in salads and garlic butter -- but

I don't

do " infused oils " .

>Do you think that a typical

>canning and preserving book (not for it's method) would be a good

>source for telling which fruits and vegetables have low acid levels

>and need acid added for preserving, and which have enough acid in

>them, not requiring added acid? I keep forgetting that lemon or lime

>(?) juice can be used as well for added acid content, correct? Any

>acidic medium will keep the botulism at bay, right? What are some

>other ones?

There are almost NO printed materials about lacto fermentation, except

a few esoteric ones for the food industry. There are some websites,

and " keeping food fresh " . But " Keeping Food Fresh " has recipes like:

-----------------------------------------------

Green Beans

Make a brine of two tablespoons of salt per quart of water. Bring to

a boil and let cool.

Remove the strings from the freshly picked beans and fill the jars, packing

the beans

just slightly (Do not wash the beans unless they are very dirty). Pour the

cooled

brine over the beans, right up to the top of the jars. Close the jars with

rubber-sealed lids and store them in the cellar.

It is preferable to soak the beans in water overnight to remove the salt

before

cooking them.

-----------------------------------------------

Most of the French recipes do NOT use any vinegar. But I asked my Mom, and her

grandmother did: about a TBLS per quart. Having done winemaking and read

about botulism, this struck me as a good idea. But all the French contributors

to the book were still alive to write the recipes, so it likely works

without the

vinegar too. Lacto bacilli like and acid solution, so the acid won't hurt

them. Any

acid would be fine, I think.

>Peace and Love of Christ be with you,

>Robin

>

Heidi Schuppenhauer

Trillium Custom Software Inc.

heidis@...

June 23, 2002

At 05:22 AM 6/23/2002 +0000, you wrote:

>So, adding a tablespoon or so of vinegar (or salt) to our lacto-

>fermenting food will keep botulism at bay but still allow the good

>guys to continue to multiply, even though it may be at a slower

>rate? A small amount of vinegar won't kill the good guys, just slow

>them down? Am I getting this right? And, this small amount of salt

>or vinegar is enough to keep botulism from growing?

OK, and one more take on it from the FDA (as conservative as you can get):

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------\

-----------------

http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/NEWS/NEW00120.html

" To be safe, FDA said, garlic-in-oil products should contain additional

ingredients

-- specific levels of microbial inhibitors or acidifying agents such as

phosphoric or citric acid. Most garlic products do contain

these additives, as disclosed on their labels. "

....

-- Unrefrigerated garlic-in-oil mixes lacking antimicrobial agents can

permit the growth of Clostridium botulinum bacteria with subsequent toxin

production without affecting the taste and smell of the products.

-- Toxin production can occur even when a small number of Clostridium

botulinum spores are present in the garlic. When the spore-containing

garlic is bottled and covered with oil, an oxygen-free environment is

created that promotes the germination of spores and the growth of

microorganisms at temperatures as low as 50 degrees Fahrenheit.

------------------------------

Any " acidifying agent " should work, I think. Also a temperature of below 50

degress Fahrenheit.

-- Heidi

June 23, 2002

Wow Heidi, how do you go about finding these bits of info?

BTW, the article refers to ... " Non-preserved Garlic-and-oil products are

mixtures of vegetable oil and whole, chopped or minced garlic " .... do you think

the type of oil would make a difference? also it seems the garlic itself needs

to be infected with the botulism bacteria in the first place. ... " However, when

garlic containing this bacteria is bottled and covered with oil, the organism

can grow and toxins be produced at temperatures as low as 10°C " !!!...

is it possible the oil was 'bad' in the first place?

Dedy