bread and related issues

[Guest guest]

> 3. Why can't we get our nutrients from pills? (Poor absorption? Well

why can't we just

> take a motherload of pills, and some will get digested, the rest excreted?

If we CAN get

> extra our nutrients from pills why bother eating 'good' bread, grains,

etc.?)

> Daphne

Daphne,

Because pills are chemicals not nutrients. They are typically isolates or

fractions of the real vitamin complexes. The nutrients found in food contain

complexes: a complex contains everything the body needs in order to utilize

the vitamins and minerals within the complex. When you take fractionated

vitamins, your body has to work to pull the missing ingredients from

elsewhere in the body in order to try to make the vitamins whole again and

hence usable. I think fractionated vitamins might make someone feel a little

better in the beginning (because they might help meet some gross deficiency)

but then they cause more problems and can get quite toxic. Besides whole

foods (raw being best), the only way to get nutrients is from whole food

complex supplements such as those listed as superfoods in the book and on

the website. I don't think the effect of pills are as benign as just

excreting what doesn't get digested. I think the body looks at them as

something foreign and toxic and something it has to deal with rather than

something it can use to function better. They sort of distract the body from

other functions and just require more work. Nutrients from food and whole

food supplements help the body do its job, not add unnecessary work and

toxicities.

Barb

[Guest guest]

> He is very skeptical and questions everything I say

> about nutrition which is understandable, but difficult.

> Even though I have some bio/physio education there is no

> way I can prove everything I " know " .

Hi Daphne:

In your learning process were you taught that food is not produced

for nutritional quality, but rather it is produced for quantity?

Also, in producing food for quantity, were you taught that the higher

quantities are obtained at the expense of nutritional quality?

> Pacific Bakery in the Bay Area makes bread which seems 'NT-

> compatible'. The only ingredients are spelt or kamut,

> filtered water and sea salt. It is made in a 14-hour, labor

> intensive process, according to the packaging.

Daphne:

Do you want bread that is 'NT-compatible' or bread that is

nutritious? If it's the latter, rather than the former, then the soil

fertility in which the grain is grown will be the most important

issue.

> If he was convinced that " regular " bread was causing

> problems, he would make changes.

Daphne:

You might tell him that it isn't what is in regular bread (or, for

that matter, any other food) that is the problem with regular bread,

but what isn't in regular bread.

> Ok, so my/his questions are:

> 3. Why can't we get our nutrients from pills?

Because, Daphne, we don't know what all the nutrients are or how they

would all work together in combination if we knew what they were. A

diet from low soil fertility plus supplements will never be the

nutritional equivalent of a diet from high soil fertility.

Chi

P.S. I would suggest your reading " Nutrition and Physical

Degeneration " to strengthen your arguments and become better informed.

[Guest guest]

Chi-

>I am not concerned with phytic acid. I am not concerned with what is

>in my food, I am concerned with what isn't in my food.

I'm slightly unclear about your position on this matter (and related

ones). You don't care if there's a substance in your food that prevents

you from absorbing some of the nutrients in your food, or you don't believe

that there is such a substance in foods grown on highly fertile soil?

-

[Guest guest]

Are there non-hybrid varieties of wheat that I can ask for by name? Or how else

do I

identify non-hybrid wheat?

Where might one find the type of grains you describe? Wholesalers? The

Internet?

Farmer's Markets? (I just looked in the phone book for farmers. Nothing.)

Thanks for the encouragement about the WAP book, I will keep reading.

>

> It is probably possible to find grains to bake with that come from

> high soil fertility, but it probably isn't easy to find them. Today

> we have another problem with grains, they may be hybrid. Since

> hybrids were developed for increased yields at the expense of

> nutrition, I would suggest never using hybrids.

> Hard wheat requires higher soil fertility than soft wheat. The

> protein content of the wheat would help indicate the nutritional

> value and the weight per bushel would also indicate nutritional

> value. Any processing of food is dependent to a large extent on the

> original nutritional quality of the food to begin with. Like making

> compost, the value of the final product is largely dependent on the

> soil fertility in which the organic matter being composted grew in.

> The composting process used would be less important. Apparently, you

> can't make a silk purse out of a pig's ear.

> I am not concerned with phytic acid. I am not concerned with what is

> in my food, I am concerned with what isn't in my food.

>

> > As for WAP I have only had a chance to read 25% of the book

> > and to be honest I didn't find the first quarter very

> > informative. The book is up there on my priority list but

> > my time is limited.

>

> Keep reading. I found the first part of the book somewhat tedious,

> becasue Price kept finding the same things in the isolated

> populations and the nearby modernized populations. His conclusions of

> what was happening and what to do about it will make reading it

> worthwhile in the end. I tell people that if they wish to start to

> really understand nutrition, to read this book. So keep reading.

> Chi

[Guest guest]

Why? What is wrong with holsteins?

Let me guess: Bred for production, so the quality of their milk has most likely

gone down

as a result of selective breeding.

>

> Hi Dennis:

> I asked the farmer what kind of cow he had to make sure he didn't

> have holsteins. I wouldn't drink milk from a modern holstein.

> Btw, my farmer does not have Jerseys, so I agree with your statement.

> Chi

[Guest guest]

Heidi, your halibut recipie sounds wonderful and I think my BF will eat it

(though he

usually protests fish too).

What is sorghum -- a type of wheat? Can you give us your bread recipie.

Thanks much,

Daphne

>

> Mine isn't very interested in talking theory, but he eats whatever I make.

> But in general he's enjoyed the change -- our meat tastes better (he used

> to dislike beef, but now we have that tender longhorn he loves it), he

> likes his pile of vegies with butter, the sorghum sets better with him than

> wheat (that's a Heidi thing, not an NT thing), and he likes the fact we can

> make kefir. He still won't try the kimchi after tasting some of the really

> hot stuff and seeing a batch I made that had little fish in it, but he

> liked the pickled beets. His long-standing gut problems are much better,

> he's lost 20 lbs, and he can see that our son is healthier.

>

> So I spout off nutrition now and then, but mostly he says, if I cook it and

> it tastes good, why should he complain? He goes out and buys some potato

> chips now and then but he rarely gets around to eating them -- I think when

> you are eating well you don't get hungry enough to actually want stuff like

> that. I told everyone at lunch today that they were awfully trusting, they

> just eat whatever I cook and never ask for anything different. Someone

> answered something like " Like we miss fishsticks? " .

>

> Lunch was halibut braised in coconut milk (toss the halibut in a pan, pour

> a can of coconut milk over it, simmer, add salt and pepper if you want),

> cut up fruit with coconut (cut up some fruit and throw some coconut in it:

> today it was mangos, bananas, and pineapple), fresh mixed greens from our

> local farmer, acorn squash, and rice and kimchi for those that like it.

> Trust me, if you serve a meal like that, he won't complain. Just don't tell

> him it's good for him.

>

> I make kefir smoothies too, and everyone loves them, they don't miss our

> dried protein powder we used to use (and I don't miss the price tag either).

>

> As for bread -- why concentrate on bread? I make it sometimes, but it's

> only one thing in the diet and I don't even think it's the best part (even

> though in modern America we have revolved everything around bread and other

> baked goods). I've been soaking my sorghum in kefir, which makes a really

> tasty, soft bread that is NT-compliant, but even at that, I find people

> don't eat it much because they are full of the other stuff.

>

>

> Heidi Schuppenhauer

> Trillium Custom Software Inc.

> heidis@t...

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> > I told him about phytic acid and he said " well I'll just take a

mineral pill.

Processed foods that have been stripped of vital nutrients have

been " fortified " by law for about 70 years. Store shelves are full

of fortified cereals.. This artificial fortification has not improved

health. Rates of cancer, heart disease and diabetes have increased. I

don't think that all nutrients in food have been identified. For

example you didn't hear of lutein 5 years ago.

Your fiancé will not change until he is ready to change. Your

stressing over it won't change him. I knew a couple in the late 60s.

The wife was always stressing over her husband taking care of

himself. She was always trying to get him to eat healthy (low fat).

She died 5 years ago of a heart attack. He is still going strong.

[Guest guest]

At 01:50 AM 6/22/02 +0000, you wrote:

>--- In @y..., " dkemnitz2000 " <dkemnitz2000@y

>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Chi, why ask " what kind of cow do you have " ?

>> In other words I find it hard to believe milk from

>> Jersey's is the only acceptable milk! Dennis

>

>Hi Dennis:

>I asked the farmer what kind of cow he had to make sure he didn't

>have holsteins. I wouldn't drink milk from a modern holstein.

>Btw, my farmer does not have Jerseys, so I agree with your statement.

>Chi

>

Got to be Guernseys. That was our family cow 40 years back. Higher butterfat

and production than Jersey. Hard to find now. One of my earliest memories is

sitting on the front porch about 4 years old churning Lady's butter.

Wanita

[Guest guest]

>>>>>In order to buy from

him I needed to ask him two questions: " What kind of cows do you

have? " and " What colour is your butter? " Based on his answers, I

purchased a lease on a cow and totally changed my diet.

********what *were* his answeres, chi?

i have fallen in love with the goat milk i get. but i also get some local

jersey milk that is very yellow despite the fact they each eat 9 lbs. of

organic grain per day. all i can figure is that they must eat enough june

grass for their milk to be loaded with beta-carotene to be so yellow.

>>>>>>>> I knew from talking

to him at his inquiry that he had read " Pottenger's Cats "

and " Nutrition and Physical Degeneration " . I later learned he had

also read Albrecht and Andre Voisin.

*******wow. this is very impressive!

Suze Fisher

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

> Is it possible to find grains to bake with, that come

> from high fertility soil? By what standards does judge their

> quality? And you seem to imply that the whole labor intensive

> leavening process is of little or no value. Are you

> concerned about phytic acid?

********like chi said, possible but not easy. i found some wheat flour at my

local farmer's market that the farmer grows and grinds himself. he has the

BEST produce i have tasted. i have not been to the farm but i *think* his

soil fertility is qutie good because a) the produce is the best i've had

(organic, too, btw) and he has a degree in soil science and

teaches/lectures on this subject (which of course is not a guarentee). i

think he's also current president of MOFGA (Maine Organinc Farmers and

Gardener's Association). oh, and did i mention his produce is spectacular?

<g> i also know a guy that worked on his farm last year whose knowledge and

passion for farming/agriculture i admire, and i learned more about the farm

from him.

so, i tend to trust his food, and that includes the grains he grows.

try finding local farmers' markets, and when you find one that sells grains,

ask about the soil. ask to visit the farm. i'm pretty uneducated about soil

fertility, but i usually ask farmers what they do to maintain their soil.

most of them around here seem to use compost and their livestock's manure.

Suze Fisher

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

At 04:13 AM 6/22/2002 +0000, you wrote:

>Heidi, your halibut recipie sounds wonderful and I think my BF will eat it

>(though he

>usually protests fish too).

Everyone went nuts over it. It tasted like crab -- braising in coconut milk

really keeps the moisture in! Also I like EASY recipes. This one was a

piece of cake -- open a can of coconut milk (there's probably a better

source, but this works), add frozen fish, plop the lid on, simmer on low.

>What is sorghum -- a type of wheat? Can you give us your bread recipie.

Sorghum is NOT wheat, which is why I use it. I cannot tolerate gluten (and

apparently neither can a lot of people, but they don't know it yet). It's a

grain, but it really tastes good, has high nutrients, and I get it from a

small farmer who seems careful with his crop. You need to keep it cold

though or it goes rancid. You can read about it on www.twinvalleymills.com.

I use it instead of flour, with a little xanthan gum or Viili mixed in to

replace the gluten. (Viili is a kind of yogurt that looks like kid's play

slime! see www.GEMCultures.com). It is a whole grain, but it tastes a LOT

better than whole wheat (which I never liked even when I was eating it!).

BTW -- on my soapbox here -- there is some evidence that gluten is an

anti-nutrient too, and some people are avoiding it for that reason even if

they are not allergic to it. It may damage the intestinal wall, causing all

kinds of absorption problems, even in non-allergic people. We think " wheat "

when we say " grain " in this country, but most of the world does quite

nicely without it. So it goes on my list of " suspect " foods.

The recipe I tried last was Dom's pizza crust recipe -- it's a flat bread,

I haven't tried " big " bread yet (I don't like " big " bread, I like lots of

crust).

Anyway, it's like this:

Take a cup of kefir and a cup of flour, mix. Let it set for a day or two:

it'll get real bubbly.

Add more flour, salt, and seasonings if you want, until you get a thick

paste (I added grated cheese and dried onion flakes and red pepper).

Spread paste on baking parchment or a baking mat (see Exopat, at

www.cooking.com). I cover the paste with another mat, then smooth it to be

of the desired thickness with a flat spatula or box, but you can use a wet

spatula too.

Let it rise a bit, remove the 2nd sheet of parchment if you used it, then

bake it.

This is really yummy, and doesn't contain the normal kinds of yeast. Not

all the flour is " soaked " for a long time, but the kefir is pretty active

and seems to make it more digestible during the rising time. You could let

it go longer if you want too.

>

Heidi

[Guest guest]

> Everyone went nuts over it. It tasted like crab -- braising in

coconut milk

> really keeps the moisture in! Also I like EASY recipes.

Heidi,

If it's not asking too much, could you, and others for that matter,

post your yummy sounding recipes in the files folders? The food you

mention always sounds so good. I have been going through the

archives to find recipes but it is so hard to find them.

Peace and Love of Christ be with you,

Robin

[Guest guest]

Wanita-

>Got to be Guernseys. That was our family cow 40 years back. Higher butterfat

>and production than Jersey.

Though the Guernsey is an excellent cow, its milk has a slightly lower

butterfat content than Jerseys.

-

[Guest guest]

> I'm slightly unclear about your position on this matter

> (and related ones). You don't care if there's a

> substance in your food that prevents you from absorbing some of

> the nutrients in your food, or you don't believe that there

> is such a substance in foods grown on highly fertile soil?

Hi :

The nutritional value of any food varies over a large range. To judge

any food by its content of a single nutrient or a single " anti-

nutrient " is a mistake according to the evidence I have reviewed. Let

me give an example.

Would you judge the nutritional value of spinach based on its oxalic

acid content or would you judge the nutritional value of spinach

based on its vitamin C content? I would assume you would call oxalic

acid, which binds calcium and magnesium making them unavailable,

an " anti-nutrient " and I assume you would call vitamin C a nutrient.

I would not judge the nutritional value of spinach by either its

oxalic acid content or its vitamin C content and here is why:

An experiment was done growing spinach in carefully controlled,

different levels of soil fertility to see how the nutritional value

changed with changes in soil fertility. The clay soil used was

stripped of its cations, or positive ions, and measured amounts of

calcium and nitrogen were added. In the soils with the least nitrogen

and calcium added, the spinach had the highest content of oxalic acid

and the lowest content of calcium and magnesium, with the oxalic acid

content being sufficient to bind all of the calcium and magnesium.

The vitamin C content, on the other hand, was at its highest level.

As the amounts of calcium and nitrogen added to the soil were

increased, the oxalic acid content decreased and the calcium and

magnesium contents increased to the point where there was not

sufficient oxalic acid to bind all the calcium and magnesium. As the

soil fertility was increased, the vitamin C content of the spinach

declined. During the experiments, thrip insects, which were

uninvited, showed up and damaged some of the plants. The spinach

plants in the lowest soil fertility were the most damaged by the

insects and the spinach plants in the highest soil fertility were the

least damaged.

In choosing food, it would be more important to me to know the soil

fertility it grew in rather than any isolated nutrient or " anti-

nutrient " content. If you want to know the nutritional value of food,

you need to judge its ability to support healthy life in feeding

experiments. Single nutrient studies may tell little or nothing about

the over all nutritional value of the food.

Chi

[Guest guest]

> Are there non-hybrid varieties of wheat that I can ask for

> by name? Or how else do I identify non-hybrid wheat?

> Where might one find the type of grains you describe?

> Wholesalers? The Internet? Farmer's Markets? (I just looked

> in the phone book for farmers. Nothing.)

> Thanks for the encouragement about the WAP book,

> I will keep reading.

I don't know what are hybrid varieties and what are open-pollinated

varieties of wheat by their names. I would just ask the person

selling you the wheat if it is a hybid variety. If the person asks

you why you are asking, I would tell them you aren't interested in

guaranteed malnutrition, you at least want a chance for the wheat to

have some nutritional value based on the soil fertility it was grown

in. If it's a hybrid, you can tell that the farmer growing it has no

interest in nutrition or in soil fertility, whether it's organic or

not.

Until people start demanding nutrition from non-hybrid crops grown on

high soil fertility, don't expect it to be available.

Chi

[Guest guest]

Chi-

>Would you judge the nutritional value of spinach based on its oxalic

>acid content or would you judge the nutritional value of spinach

>based on its vitamin C content?

Neither.

Relative to the ideal for spinach, I'd judge a particular spinach by the

quality of the soil it was grown in, the methods used by the farmer to grow

it, the particular variety of spinach (hybrid or not, GM or not,

heirloom/traditional or not, high-yield or low-yield), etc. However, I

judge the quality of spinach itself as a food fit for human consumption by

its antinutrient content. I'm striving to optimize the nutrient profile of

my food by seeking the best kinds of foods from the best-quality soils (an

extremely difficult task by itself) while eliminating everything I can from

my diet that will in some way interfere with improving my health and

optimizing my utilization of those foods. There's no point in eating good

food and then preventing myself from getting its full value, and substances

like oxcalic and phytic acids interfere with mineral absorption, so I'm

interested in reducing or eliminating them, not in eating more. Though I

don't think grains are a great idea for food to begin with, best heirloom

variety of wheat grown in the best soil by the best

organic/biodynamic/WAP/soil-improving farmer could nonetheless be rendered

healthier and more fit for human consumption by proper treatment to

pre-digest it and reduce or eliminate its antinutrient content. Clearly

spinach from fertile soil will be superior to spinach from infertile soil,

but it's possible that just as fertile-soil spinach contains less vitamin C

(a bandaid to help prevent spoilage due to deeper problems resulting from

poor growing conditions) it contains greater quantities of antinutrients

besides oxcalic acid evolved to protect against consumption by

animals. The fact that we don't know all the specifics of how and why

plants grown on fertile soil are more resistant to pests and animals

doesn't mean there's not a mechanism and that we, as animals, shouldn't be

concerned about it.

Good spinach sauteed in butter is a real treat, so I indulge from time to

time, but I'm certainly not going to make it a staple of my diet.

-

[Guest guest]

Chi-

>However, I

>judge the quality of spinach itself as a food fit for human consumption by

>its antinutrient content.

One correction: I should've said " I judge the quality of spinach itself as

a food fit for human consumption in large part by its antinutrient

content " . Obviously there are other considerations, including its overall

nutrient content. <g>

-

[Guest guest]

At 05:24 PM 6/22/2002 +0000, you wrote:

>Heidi,

>

>If it's not asking too much, could you, and others for that matter,

>post your yummy sounding recipes in the files folders? The food you

>mention always sounds so good. I have been going through the

>archives to find recipes but it is so hard to find them.

>

>Peace and Love of Christ be with you,

>Robin

Sure. Actually, if anyone is interested, I can compile them into a cookbook

and just post one PDF. I was considering doing that anyway, to hand them

down to my kids ... (in my other life I write books ... not about food

though ... just boring technical programming stuff)

Heidi

[Guest guest]

Oky doky. I'd like to have a collection of REALLY EASY recipes -- I've been

kind of collecting the

ones that work. The cookbooks that sell usually have a bunch of nice fancy

recipes that take way

too long -- but the good cooks say that the best food is really simple with

only a few ingredients.

(think French Provance).

-- Heidi

At 04:45 AM 6/23/2002 +0000, you wrote:

>Oh! Pretty please, with sugar on top! That would be so wonderful. I

>would be so grateful. This is darn hard to get on top of. Mentally,

>it's one thing, but preparing foods is another issue altogether. I

>used to be a pretty darn good cook/baker, with all the refined foods,

>but now I find myself not being good at all and it is frustrating. I

>could really use some help. Also, I know you use gluten free flours;

>I am trying different flours, to create different flavors (don't care

>for the wheat flavor in baked goods), in the stuff I make, so don't

>hesitate to share those as well. Thank you.

>

>Peace and Love of Christ be with you,

>Robin

>

[Guest guest]

Here is Byrnes review on Dr. Schmidt's book, Traditional Foods are your

best Medicine. He only gives it 3 stars. Where as Cholesterol Myths he gives a

5 star to and an excellent review at Amazon. Personally, if I were going to

spend the money, I get the more technical book Cholesterol Myths or Byrnes

recommendation of Life Without Bread.

Robin

5 of 6 people found the following review helpful:

A Mixed Bag, March 11, 2002

Reviewer: Byrnes (see more about me) from Honolulu, HI United States

This book is well-written and provides an excellent synopsis of Dr. Weston

Price's research into traditional diets from many peoples around the world. Dr.

Schmid writes lucidly and shows the benefits and limitations of traditional

diets in treating various diseases.

The book goes wrong, like so many others, in its demonization of saturated fat.

Schmid is simply wrong about saturated fats causing heart disease, cancer, and

ill health in general. He is also wrong in asserting that our ancestors did not

eat a lot of saturated fat. This is strange coming from someone who is so

obviously familiar with Price's research which showed every population group to

be eating diets rich in saturated fats and these people, as Schmid knows, were

supremely healthy.

I think a better book to get would be Lutz and Allan's LIFE WITHOUT BREAD or

Fallon and Enig's NOURISHING TRADITIONS.

> > Yes, I overstated the case; my BF and I had an argument which led to my

> post. He

> > actually does respect my opinions, and with more and better cooking (as

> Heidi suggests)

> > his habits will improve. The thing that gets me is the rest of the world.

> I dare not tell my

> > family that he has a heart condition (even though he's had it since

> birth). My parents

> > are scientists; my younger brother's in medical school.

>

> Then " Cholesterol Myths " ought to be just the ticket, as I'd say it is aimed

> at the scientist who thinks that research has show cholesterol to be the

> villain in heart disease.

>

> >A conversation we had about

> > coconut oil made me feel like I was doing something evil. My dad's on

> cholesterol

> > lowering medication. My mother gets upset that I cook my own egg in

> butter. I suppose

> > this is why I live on the left coast.

>

> The problem is that the 'low fat is better' theory is so pervasive that when

> you become convinced that it is not true it's like an earthquake that shakes

> everything upside down. Soybean oil goes from good to bad, butter and eggs

> go from bad to good, etc. Ron Schmidt's book 'Traditional Foods are your

> Best Medicine' has a good summary of these arguments, if you want something

> less technical than 'Cholesterol Myths.' I have a hard time getting my

> husband to read these things (he just reads mysteries), but I've found that

> casually reading out loud a few startling paragraphs to him got him thinking

> about it. He did stop taking his cholesterol medication. Of course it helped

> that he went along with me to the Wise Traditions conference in April.

>

> Kris

[Guest guest]

--- I'm wondering if you folks who dislike the taste of wheat flour

have used fresh wheat in your products. I realize age of wheat

probably doesn't change the gluten profile significantly however the

flavor of fresh wheat is much different than old warehoused grain. I

grew a little hybrid, no chemicals added, grain sorghum (milo) a few

years ago, and noticed it tasted sweet and had a good enough flavor,

that I kept eating it thruout the day while harvesting. Since you

mentioned it Heidi, I've been wanting to grind some and make some of

your bread/pastry products. I'd also like to grow some non-hybrid milo

this summer to bake with later but have to find some seed soonest to

do it. Anyway thanks Heidi for your modified recipes and others too.

Just wondering about your wheat quality cause fresh wheat berries have

a very tasty nutty flavor. Dennis

In @y..., Heidi Schuppenhauer <heidis@t...> wrote:

>

> Oky doky. I'd like to have a collection of REALLY EASY recipes --

I've been

> kind of collecting the

> ones that work. The cookbooks that sell usually have a bunch of nice

fancy

> recipes that take way

> too long -- but the good cooks say that the best food is really

simple with

> only a few ingredients.

> (think French Provance).

>

> -- Heidi

>

> At 04:45 AM 6/23/2002 +0000, you wrote:

> >Oh! Pretty please, with sugar on top! That would be so wonderful.

I

> >would be so grateful. This is darn hard to get on top of.

Mentally,

> >it's one thing, but preparing foods is another issue altogether. I

> >used to be a pretty darn good cook/baker, with all the refined

foods,

> >but now I find myself not being good at all and it is frustrating.

I

> >could really use some help. Also, I know you use gluten free

flours;

> >I am trying different flours, to create different flavors (don't

care

> >for the wheat flavor in baked goods), in the stuff I make, so don't

> >hesitate to share those as well. Thank you.

> >

> >Peace and Love of Christ be with you,

> >Robin

> >

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

---When would a hybrid become a non-hybrid? Like how many generations

away from F1? I've harvested Karl 92 wheat for 5 seasons using

certified hybrid seed only the first planting. Since then I've saved

the seeds from each successive crop and planted them each year except

one. That year I planted one year old seed. My seed now(5 seasons

later) is not hybrid by a geneticist's definition. The berry's

appearance is much different than the original seed. I've not done any

analyses on it nor even made bread with it. We mostly have sprouted

it for our own use and for livestock consumption. Thanks in advance.

Dennis

In @y..., " soilfertility " <ynos@c...> wrote:

> --- In @y..., " biophile410 " <biophile410@y...>

wrote:

> > Are there non-hybrid varieties of wheat that I can ask for

> > by name? Or how else do I identify non-hybrid wheat?

> > Where might one find the type of grains you describe?

> > Wholesalers? The Internet? Farmer's Markets? (I just looked

> > in the phone book for farmers. Nothing.)

> > Thanks for the encouragement about the WAP book,

> > I will keep reading.

>

> I don't know what are hybrid varieties and what are open-pollinated

> varieties of wheat by their names. I would just ask the person

> selling you the wheat if it is a hybid variety. If the person asks

> you why you are asking, I would tell them you aren't interested in

> guaranteed malnutrition, you at least want a chance for the wheat to

> have some nutritional value based on the soil fertility it was grown

> in. If it's a hybrid, you can tell that the farmer growing it has no

> interest in nutrition or in soil fertility, whether it's organic or

> not.

> Until people start demanding nutrition from non-hybrid crops grown

on

> high soil fertility, don't expect it to be available.

> Chi

[Guest guest]

At 10:39 PM 6/24/02 +0000, you wrote:

>---When would a hybrid become a non-hybrid?  Like how many generations

>away from F1?  I've harvested Karl 92 wheat for 5 seasons using 

>certified hybrid seed only the first planting.  Since then I've saved

>the seeds from each successive crop and planted them each year except

>one.  That year I planted one year old seed.  My seed now(5 seasons

>later) is not hybrid by a geneticist's definition. The berry's

>appearance is much different than the original seed. I've not done any

>analyses on it nor even made bread with it.  We mostly have sprouted

>it for our own use and for livestock consumption.  Thanks in advance.

> Dennis

>

Hi Dennis,

From what I understand on the third year of planting out a hybrid seed you

then

have the more dominant of the two cultivars.

Wanita

[Guest guest]

??? Does sorghum hybrid with wheat??? If so this is bad news for some of us

.... I have

some sorghum grains and it sure LOOKS different from wheat. Is it hard to

grow? I have a bunch

of land I'll need to plant with something when I get the chickens moved.

I agree about fresh grain though. And fresh grinding. I get my sorghum

flour very fresh and

freeze it, and it really tastes good. I ground some fresh wheat flour once

and it wasn't bad --

though I personally don't dislike the taste of wheat, it dislikes ME.

-- Heidi

At 10:10 PM 6/24/2002 +0000, you wrote:

>--- I'm wondering if you folks who dislike the taste of wheat flour

>have used fresh wheat in your products. I realize age of wheat

>probably doesn't change the gluten profile significantly however the

>flavor of fresh wheat is much different than old warehoused grain. I

>grew a little hybrid, no chemicals added, grain sorghum (milo) a few

>years ago, and noticed it tasted sweet and had a good enough flavor,

>that I kept eating it thruout the day while harvesting. Since you

>mentioned it Heidi, I've been wanting to grind some and make some of

>your bread/pastry products. I'd also like to grow some non-hybrid milo

>this summer to bake with later but have to find some seed soonest to

>do it. Anyway thanks Heidi for your modified recipes and others too.

>Just wondering about your wheat quality cause fresh wheat berries have

>a very tasty nutty flavor. Dennis

Heidi Schuppenhauer

Trillium Custom Software Inc.

heidis@...

[Guest guest]

> Reviewer: Byrnes (see more about me) from Honolulu, HI United

States

> This book is well-written and provides an excellent synopsis of Dr. Weston

Price's research into traditional diets from many peoples around the world.

Dr. Schmid writes lucidly and shows the benefits and limitations of

traditional diets in treating various diseases.

> The book goes wrong, like so many others, in its demonization of saturated

fat. Schmid is simply wrong about saturated fats causing heart disease,

cancer, and ill health in general. He is also wrong in asserting that our

ancestors did not eat a lot of saturated fat. This is strange coming from

someone who is so obviously familiar with Price's research which showed

every population group to be eating diets rich in saturated fats and these

people, as Schmid knows, were supremely healthy.

Kris:

I wonder if Dr. Byrnes was reading an older edition of the book? I have the

1997 version and I don't see this demonization of saturated fat in my copy.

Like so many of us I think Dr. Schmidt's thinking has evolved. He was after

all a major exhibitor at the Wise Traditions conference in D.C. in April.

Just to quote a couple places from the book:

" Excessive amounts of fat in America's meat and Dairy animals do contribute

to the development of disease. But confusion has resulted from a failure to

recognize that the inferior quality of modern animals and their fats is the

real problem " p 13

Regarding Atkins' diet: " The Quality of the animal-source foods used is

nevertheless an important issue. The Atkins diet in particular stresses the

use of fatty foods; the book present evidence that refined carbohydrates

rather than animal fats are the villains in the American diet. There is

truth in this, but as we have seen, fats in modern commercial animals and

milk products are very different in quantity and kind from those in animals

living under more natural conditions. " p.88

" Adequate amounts of fat-soluble nutrients of animal origin and sufficient

raw foods must be included and the bulk of the diet consists of vegetables,

grains, and fish. Varying amount of other animal-source foods are

recommended, depending on the availability of meats, eggs, and dairy foods

of sufficient quality. " p. 101

I still say this book is a good summary of a lots of the ideas we have been

discussing, especially if you are trying to get a reluctant family member

to read something. I notice that the book is not listed on the WAP website,

either as recommended or not recommended. I wonder about that.

You might want to check out his short course on nutrition at his website:

http://www.drrons.com/nutrition_short_course.html

Peace,

Kris , gardening in northwest Ohio

If you want to hear the good news about butter check out this website:

http://www.westonaprice.org/know_your_fats/know_your_fats.html