Kimchi

[Guest guest]

At 07:14 PM 6/4/2002 +0000, you wrote:

>Heidi, if this keeps up I am going to be stinking up the house

>again! LOL

Well, you see this is why I like the plastic bag method ... my family hasn't

banished me to the goat shed (yet). I just got my koji grains -- this will be a

new thing -- I don't know how THAT smells!

>

>>

>> Commercial saurkraut tastes good, but doesn't have any biotics.

>

>I've been wondering about the plain storebought stuff that comes

>in a plastic bag around here. Looks live to me, and does not

>say pasteurized on the label. Any way I can tell?

>

>Anyway what you have been writing about kimchi sounds like fun,

>but I am not sure I can find that special cabbage. How about

>regular cabbage? Three days you say? I can handle that.

>

>Any danger of the mason jar or the plastic bag exploding?

That's one reason I tried the bag -- I wanted to see how much gas is really

produced. It's not much. A jar is ok if you leave some air space. Just make sure

that there is liquid covering the cabbage -- you don't want the cabbage exposed

to the air.

>Is there a kimchi website or FAQ around so I don't have to bug you?

There are a ton of them: try a google search on " kimchi recipe " . Here's my

favorite:

http://web.tiscali.it/Kyoko_Hayashi/make_kimchi.htm

>If it is in Sally's book I can go find it there too...

She has one, " oriental sauerkraut " I think it's called. But it's not the same as

real kimchi!

>> You can make it the NT way, in a mason jar, which apparently is

>quite popular among non-NT sauerkraut makers. Doesn't take much work.

>Sauerkraut takes a long time to " mellow " though (kind of like wine or

>beer), so I prefer the kimchi as a condiment. But homemade kimchi is

>a lot better than storebought, esp. if you add lots of carrots and

>ginger. It's ready in about 2-3 days. I make mine in a plastic bag,

>takes about 20 minutes.

>>

>> I was thinking of getting a crock myself, but there is an issue:

>the stuff SMELLS. Any fermented stuff pretty much smells up the house

>(beer and wine too! You should smell it around here when a batch is

>going). Using a closed container is much, much easier.

>

>And the closed container controls the smell? That is what I

>need, cause my wife smells way better than me, I mean she

>is a better smeller. No no, I mean she always complains when I

>stink up the house!

The bag only lets out the smell if you open it. I open it to let out the excess

liquid (you get this more with kimchi than kraut). If you let out the liquid it

stays crispier.

[Guest guest]

At 09:43 AM 6/4/2002 -0700, you wrote:

>Ok last set of questions for sure. What kind of red peppers and is it

>freshly chopped or powdered? Is the salt and sugar in Tbsp or Tsp?

Oh question away. No limit -- of course you get what you pay for ...

I use the " red pepper flakes " (McCormick's, in the big container) from Costco. I

guess there is hot pepper sauce especially for Kimchi too. Traditionally you

should add some fish sauce too (or fermented fish), but the ones I have seem to

have MSG in them, which I don't like.

Heidi Schuppenhauer

Trillium Custom Software Inc.

heidis@...

[Guest guest]

It happened. My wife told me where to get a Napa

cabbage, so I got one and salted it last

night and put it in a bowl. I barely could fit a

plate on it then, but this morning I checked and

although its color is the same, it has sunk down

about an inch and a half into the bowl!

Heidi, I made the 'sauce' last night and followed

your lead except I grated a Dakon radish into it

too. I hope that is ok. It bothered me a little,

thinking that perhaps I should be making the 'sauce'

tonight when I mix the ingredients. Last night I

had the time to do it though, and tonight I won't.

Anyway the grated carrots, radish, sliced ginger and

garlic, salt, sugar, vinegar (I put in a little extra)

and lot of peppers are tightly wrapped in a ziplock

freezer bag in the refrigerator. It smells very good

to eat, and even my wife said it smelled good.

I am excited. If this batch is done in three days

then Friday is my birthday! Woohoo!

Playing with my food again! I love it.

>

> That's one reason I tried the bag -- I wanted to see

> how much gas is really produced. It's not much. A

> jar is ok if you leave some air space. Just make

> sure that there is liquid covering the cabbage --

> you don't want the cabbage exposed to the air.

If I add liquid, what kind should I add? vinegar?

Juice from commercial kimchi? or just mash it till

no air is left. I don't mind mashed, it chews up

faster.

> >Is there a kimchi website or FAQ around so I don't

> > have to bug you?

> There are a ton of them: try a google search on

> " kimchi recipe " . Here's my favorite:

>

> http://web.tiscali.it/Kyoko_Hayashi/make_kimchi.htm

Oh hey, this is my favorite too all of a sudden!

Great

pictures!

> The bag only lets out the smell if you open it. I

> open it to let out the excess liquid (you get this

> more with kimchi than kraut). If you let out the

> liquid it stays crispier.

Hmm. Shall I save the liquid? Or just drink it!

I am going to have to find your recipe for Ginger

Carrots too. It was you, wasn't it Heidi that posted

it?

Thanks for the encouragement btw. It was all I

needed.

Steve

=====

# Steve Veeneman - svnmn@...

# What do you really want...

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

At 06:56 AM 6/5/2002 -0700, you wrote:

>It happened. My wife told me where to get a Napa

>cabbage, so I got one and salted it last

>night and put it in a bowl. I barely could fit a

>plate on it then, but this morning I checked and

>although its color is the same, it has sunk down

>about an inch and a half into the bowl!

>

>Heidi, I made the 'sauce' last night and followed

>your lead except I grated a Dakon radish into it

>too. I hope that is ok. It bothered me a little,

>thinking that perhaps I should be making the 'sauce'

>tonight when I mix the ingredients. Last night I

>had the time to do it though, and tonight I won't.

Dakon is one of those traditional things for kimchi. They make about 700 kinds

though. I think anything is fair game!

>Anyway the grated carrots, radish, sliced ginger and

>garlic, salt, sugar, vinegar (I put in a little extra)

>and lot of peppers are tightly wrapped in a ziplock

>freezer bag in the refrigerator. It smells very good

>to eat, and even my wife said it smelled good.

I never thought of making it in advance. I think in the fridge it would be fine

though. I forgot to mention green onions though: they usually use green onions

in big chunks (3 inches long or so).

>I am excited. If this batch is done in three days

>then Friday is my birthday! Woohoo!

>

>Playing with my food again! I love it.

Experimenting is just so fun ... !

Heidi Schuppenhauer

Trillium Custom Software Inc.

heidis@...

[Guest guest]

Kat said:

>Also, my Kimchee book suggests long ferment times.

Darn! See, I just made my first batch of kimchi and found it hard to stop

snacking on it during the pounding process (hey, it's not my fault little bits

kept getting slung off the rolling pin). Guess I should have made a control

batch, huh...

Dryad

--

http://www.puritycontrol.co.uk - XF rec's at The Grove, updated 2/1/03

[Guest guest]

--- In , " Suzanne Noakes " <snoakes@h...>

wrote:

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: " Aven "

>

> > One jar released a bit of gas when I opened

> > it, and smelled like garlic - I *might* dare to eat some.

> > The other two did nothing and smelled like gym socks -

> > not appetizing at all.

>

> I have a very active jar of kimchi that I'm eating out of. I won't *even*

> tell you how my husband describes the smell..... It tastes just as

> kimchi should, though.

>

> --s

I read Heidi's kimchi file, and there was something about

putting in too much salt so nothing at all will grow. I wonder

if I did that. But nowhere does it say how much is too much.

I also left the jars in a warmish place for four days - Heidi

says two days and then into the fridge. So maybe I'll just

pitch this and start over.

I thought the kimchi I bought at Whole Foods smelled nice, and I just

bought some at the Korean market, and that smelled okay, too.

I don't know what your husband would think, though ...

Aven

[Guest guest]

>My kimchi never did anything. I tasted it

>after I mixed it all together and it was a little salty so I figured that

>was enough salt. Anyway, like I said it never did anything. Never bubbled

>or had any built up of gas or air or whatever. What did I do wrong? Any

>tips or suggestions welcome.

>

>Thanks,

>

>Cin

1. It might not bubble: mine usually doesn't. It just sits there. After 2 days

it isn't sour, just a tad fermented.

2. You might have too much salt ... that will make fermentation go slower or not

happen at all.

3. How warm is your kitchen? If it is cooler, the ferment will take longer (but

will taste better, from what I've heard).

4. How does it smell?

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

How does it smell now? Does it smell like you think it should--like

you would want to eat it? I have noticed that different fermented

vegetables have more or less gas than others. My kimchi doesn't do

much but just sit there--maybe a few bubbles. The salsa bubbles all

over the place and I have to put a bowl under the jar to keep it

from running all over the counter. I don't have a crock. I ferment

in quart jars and just open the jar a little to let out gas a couple

of times a day, so the really gassy ones make a mess when I do this.

--- In , " sampey99 " <sampey99@c...>

wrote:

> Hi,

>

> I need help from all you kimchi makers out there. Ok, Sunday

night I

> put together my kimchi. I used Napa cabbage, kosher salt, green

onions, red

> pepper, minced ginger, minced garlic cloves, some Kimchi juice

from a jar I

> had from the store and a little vinegar. I followed the method

used by

> Heidi in the Files section. My kimchi never did anything. I

tasted it

> after I mixed it all together and it was a little salty so I

figured that

> was enough salt. Anyway, like I said it never did anything.

Never bubbled

> or had any built up of gas or air or whatever. What did I do

wrong? Any

> tips or suggestions welcome.

>

> Thanks,

>

> Cin

[Guest guest]

>>I left it sitting on the counter for two whole days (i.e. I made it

around 8:00 p.m. on Sunday and left it until Tuesday before I looked at it).

BTW I still have it out on the counter and it's still not doing anything.

Cin<<

I'm not sure that's long enough, after what Tonio has said. Mine isn't ready

either and it sat out in the room for 3 days and has been in the refrigerator

for about a week, on top of that. I imagine the reason the kimchi you bought

tasted different, may be because it was fermented considerably longer. I'm

letting mine go a few weeks. When I really think about it, I feel it was silly

of me to expect much fermentation to take place in just a few days.

Carol

[Guest guest]

>. My kitchen is pretty cool at night as

> we turn the air down, but during the day it's warmer. It smells like

> vinegary salad.

There's your answer!!! Temperature. Different room temps can have

*dramatic* effects on ferments. Many folks leave their kimchi for a

week or longer. I've left kimchi sitting for a few weeks in very

cool weather, but I'm pretty careless and sloppy about these things,

so I can't report any specific anecdotes as far as which batch started

bubbling when under which conditions. I've certainly had batches of

kimchi get excessively sour, but only noticed the effect after a few

months in cold storage, and my tastes are far more accomodating of

" flavor diversity " (which many on this list will intuit as a euphemism

coming from my fingers) than most.

The two-day cycle for kimchi, typical of Korean restaurants and such,

almost certainly presumes rather warm room temps.

A very definite anecdote I can relate however, is about fermented

milk. Because I make kefir almost everyday and frequently make

clabber too, I've noticed very definite data relating time to the

point when the milk gets thick and/or separates. In the hottest

summer weather, it can be about 10 hours. In the coolest winter

weather it can take 3 days or so. Furthermore, many people (not

myself) have reported a practice of making kefir by keeping it in the

fridge and waiting a week or two. So that's a huge range of times, to

give you a sense of how variable wild fermentation can be. Lately

I've been putting kefir and other stuff in my oven with just the pilot

light on, and it gives outstanding results. I plan to make some

batches of kimchi with this technique and compare to room temp

batches. I have my kimjang scheduled for next week in fact, and I'm

rushing to make various minor preparations, like, uh, digging a root

cellar :-) , cleaning many many mason jars, buying dried shrimp and

fish, etc...

Also, it's very unusual to put vinegar in kimchi. Maybe that slowed

it down? Just a minor thought. I'm sure the cool temps are the answer

in your case. Optimal temps for kimchi and most other LF stuff (at

least for the initial fermentation phase) is probably around 75-90F

degrees as far as I'm aware, but lower temps typically work fine and

just take longer.

(By the way, if you ever get really into the fermentation thing, or

just want a wider range of folks to pose questions to, a bunch of us

have recently focused our fermented foods exchanges on an email group

specifically designed for the topic:

nutrition/)

Mike

SE Pennsylvania

The best way to predict the future is to invent it. --Alan Kay

[Guest guest]

>Heidi, okay I just tasted it - it tastes a little salty, vinegary (is this a

>word?), and spicy. It doesn't taste bad, just not what my store bought

>kimchi tasted like - not even close. My kitchen is pretty cool at night as

>we turn the air down, but during the day it's warmer. It smells like

>vinegary salad.

Well, FWIW the Koreans like it BEFORE it gets sour. The 'vinegar' smell

is likely the fermentation (unless you added a lot of vinegar). The taste

of every batch is different ... the ones I've been making lately, with more

fish and more pepper and less ferment time (2 days rather than 3) are not

sour until they've been in the fridge a couple of weeks or more. The ratio

of pepper, salt, seafood, and garlic has a lot to do with the speed of the

ferment,

and when it gets cool the ferment may slow way down. My kitchen is at 74 all

year, owing to really good insulation mainly, and that I cook a lot.

The taste will mature a lot over time. This is common for fermentation

products ... some wine we made was AWFUL until it had sat for a year!

Then it was fantastic! Ditto for kraut, it takes weeks to get really good.

If your kitchen is cooler, it might take longer, but also the product tends

to taste better with a longer, cooler ferment.

Plus, when you get a product like King's, they have

tweaked the recipe a lot until they get just the right taste, and you will

probably find each batch of yours is a bit different. I recommend keeping

a log, so you can get it the way you like it. But it sounds to me like you

have a success!

Heidi Jean