Guest guest Posted July 18, 2000 Report Share Posted July 18, 2000 Vera wrote: > How do you decrease lactic acid? Decrease lactic acid buildup in the body's cells by eating L-lactic acid containing foods, such as buttermilk, yogurt, sauerkraut, cottage cheese, kombucha tea, and lactic-acid probiotics (lactobacillus). A buildup of bad D-lactic acid prevents acid secretion from tissues into the blood, thereby producing blood alkalinity. L-lactic acid foods, together with vigorous exercise and sweating, as in a sauna, are anti-cancer and promote excretion of wastes. All of these together will eliminate the unhealthy build-up of D- and DL-lactic acid in the body, and help regulate the proper pH of the blood. To over-simplify : LACTIC ACID is: L-LACTIC ACID = good, increases glycogen, prevents buildup of bad lactic acids. and: D-LACTIC ACID = bad, from vigorous exercise, it must be removed from the body. and: DL-LACTIC ACID = bad, forms in low oxygen and sugar fermentation that promote cancer. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Excerpted from : Twelve Vital Nutritional And Health Topics Copyright © 1991 By Gus J. Prosch, Jr. , M.D. Chapter 18 : http://prosch.com/perfect/perfect18.html Or the entire book in one large file : http://garynull.com/Documents/Arthritis/Perfect_Health.htm 6. FERMENTED FOODS Fermentation was one of the first methods of preservation discovered for foods. Bemuse of the fermentation process, foods such as sauerkraut, pickles, yogurt, cheeses, buttermilk, and cottage cheese came into existence. All of these foods in their natural form have a long history of use and are highly acceptable in dietary items. I've learned from researchers in Germany that there are two kinds of lactic acid produced by the body. When all body processes are functioning properly, the body produces a form of lactic acid called L-lactic acid, and when the body is overly stressed and not functioning properly, a bad form of lactic acid called D-lactic acid is produced. Even today, with many of my patients with chronic degenerative diseases, I have found that by supplementing extra L-lactic acid for these patients, their improvement is greatly enhanced. As the fermentation process acts to produce primarily L-lactic acid, this natural acid is common to the previously named foods This L-lactic acid seems to have a " preservative " effect on the intestinal tract as well. Such foods as yogurt and buttermilk thus have an enviable reputation for being favorable to intestinal environment. The Fermentation process also seems to act somewhat as a " predigesting factor. " Tough fibers are made softer, nutrients may be released from their biological hold, such as lactose (milk sugar), which is richer in buttermilk than in sweet milk. It has also been found that lactose favorably influences and enhances the absorption of calcium. Two Good Fermented Foods There are two foods that are outstanding in the fermented food class: buttermilk and sauerkraut. They are easily available and both are very rich sources of L-lactic acid. Buttermilk is preferred, of course, because of its high protein and calcium content. But those who do not care for buttermilk should consider sauerkraut as a source of L-lactic acid. It would be a good health practice to try to include some fermented foods in your diet each day, like buttermilk, yogurt, sauerkraut, or cottage cheese. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Excerpted from : Kombucha FAQ http://persweb.direct.ca/chaugen/kombucha_faq_part01fb.html 6.67 Does lactic acid in Kombucha have an impact on muscle strength? Build-up of lactic acid in the muscles does cause deterioration. However, there are two kinds of lactic acid: d-lactic acid and l-lactic acid. These are isomers of each other, in scientific language. One is the mirror image of the other. In other words, when one holds something up to a mirror, the reflection is identical except what is on the right, is on the left in the mirror, hence a " mirror image " . The lactic acid in Kombucha Tea is the mirror image of the one generated in the body that causes a deterioration of muscle performance. The lactic acid generated by muscle action is bad and needs to be expelled from the body. So, the lactic acid in Kombucha doesn't decrease muscle performance, rather it should enhance it. .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2000 Report Share Posted July 18, 2000 I have this to throw at you... My son was SUSPECTED to have (not confirmed ) pyruvate carboxylase deficiency where he builds up too much pyruvate and lactic acid. I was told that this was genetically inherited. Then, I go to the tables and find that mercury can halt kreb cycles pretty well. He suffered a very bad reaction after his routine vacs at 19 months, almost died 11 days after with some kind of encelphalitic response to them, definately injured, though does not show injury with MRI and spects, thank god. Have another daughter, also autistic (hi functioning), she did not get as much mercury becuase I refused P in DPT after my sons experience, (thinking I was being smart to do so, not). Blood that is acidic is also contributed, no? from processed foods as well. As well as too much carbos? Mercury does something to the carbohydrate metabolism....does that make sense? Kathy Re: [ ] lactic acid >Vera wrote: >> How do you decrease lactic acid? > > Decrease lactic acid buildup in the body's cells by eating > L-lactic acid containing foods, such as buttermilk, yogurt, > sauerkraut, cottage cheese, kombucha tea, and lactic-acid > probiotics (lactobacillus). A buildup of bad D-lactic acid > prevents acid secretion from tissues into the blood, thereby > producing blood alkalinity. L-lactic acid foods, together > with vigorous exercise and sweating, as in a sauna, are > anti-cancer and promote excretion of wastes. All of these > together will eliminate the unhealthy build-up of D- and > DL-lactic acid in the body, and help regulate the proper pH > of the blood. To over-simplify : > > LACTIC ACID is: L-LACTIC ACID = good, increases glycogen, prevents > buildup of bad lactic acids. > and: D-LACTIC ACID = bad, from vigorous exercise, > it must be removed from the body. > and: DL-LACTIC ACID = bad, forms in low oxygen and sugar > fermentation that promote cancer. > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Excerpted from : Twelve Vital Nutritional And Health Topics > Copyright © 1991 By Gus J. Prosch, Jr. , M.D. > Chapter 18 : http://prosch.com/perfect/perfect18.html > Or the entire book in one large file : > http://garynull.com/Documents/Arthritis/Perfect_Health.htm > > 6. FERMENTED FOODS > > Fermentation was one of the first methods of preservation discovered > for foods. Bemuse of the fermentation process, foods such as > sauerkraut, pickles, yogurt, cheeses, buttermilk, and cottage cheese > came into existence. All of these foods in their natural form have > a long history of use and are highly acceptable in dietary items. > I've learned from researchers in Germany that there are two kinds of > lactic acid produced by the body. When all body processes are > functioning properly, the body produces a form of lactic acid called > L-lactic acid, and when the body is overly stressed and not > functioning properly, a bad form of lactic acid called D-lactic acid > is produced. Even today, with many of my patients with chronic > degenerative diseases, I have found that by supplementing extra > L-lactic acid for these patients, their improvement is greatly > enhanced. As the fermentation process acts to produce primarily > L-lactic acid, this natural acid is common to the previously named > foods This L-lactic acid seems to have a " preservative " effect on > the intestinal tract as well. Such foods as yogurt and buttermilk > thus have an enviable reputation for being favorable to intestinal > environment. The Fermentation process also seems to act somewhat as > a " predigesting factor. " Tough fibers are made softer, nutrients > may be released from their biological hold, such as lactose (milk > sugar), which is richer in buttermilk than in sweet milk. It has > also been found that lactose favorably influences and enhances the > absorption of calcium. > > Two Good Fermented Foods > > There are two foods that are outstanding in the fermented food > class: buttermilk and sauerkraut. They are easily available and > both are very rich sources of L-lactic acid. Buttermilk is > preferred, of course, because of its high protein and calcium > content. But those who do not care for buttermilk should consider > sauerkraut as a source of L-lactic acid. It would be a good health > practice to try to include some fermented foods in your diet each > day, like buttermilk, yogurt, sauerkraut, or cottage cheese. > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Excerpted from : > Kombucha FAQ > http://persweb.direct.ca/chaugen/kombucha_faq_part01fb.html > > 6.67 Does lactic acid in Kombucha have an impact on muscle strength? > > Build-up of lactic acid in the muscles does cause deterioration. > However, there are two kinds of lactic acid: d-lactic acid and > l-lactic acid. These are isomers of each other, in scientific > language. One is the mirror image of the other. In other words, > when one holds something up to a mirror, the reflection is identical > except what is on the right, is on the left in the mirror, hence a > " mirror image " . The lactic acid in Kombucha Tea is the mirror image > of the one generated in the body that causes a deterioration of > muscle performance. The lactic acid generated by muscle action is > bad and needs to be expelled from the body. So, the lactic acid in > Kombucha doesn't decrease muscle performance, rather it should > enhance it. > > > > >. > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Get a NextCard Visa, in 30 seconds! >1. Fill in the brief application >2. Receive approval decision within 30 seconds >3. Get rates as low as 2.9% Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR >1/6630/9/_/705339/_/963907068/ >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2000 Report Share Posted July 18, 2000 Kathy wrote: > ....pyruvate carboxylase deficiency where he builds up too much > pyruvate and lactic acid. I was told that this was genetically > inherited. .... mercury can halt kreb cycles pretty well. Hi Kathy, I'm no expert on this, however in order to establish some potential link with mercury, it seems to me that you'd need to first obtain evidence that the (suspected) mercury affects this portion (pyruvate carboxylase) of the Krebs acid cycle -- since there are numerous other places in this cycle that the (suspected) mercury may instead preemptively do most of its damage. Until you know more about this, I believe you cannot assume that this -is- caused (primarily) by mercury, and is -not- being caused (primarily) by something else.... > Blood that is acidic is also contributed, no? from processed foods > as well. As well as too much carbos? Mercury does something to > the carbohydrate metabolism....does that make sense? I'm not sure, but again, I'm no expert. L-lactic acid can correct 'alkaline blood,' which can do just as much damage as 'acid blood.' What you want is a healthy balance. If mercury, or anything else, is causing 'alkaline blood,' or carbohydrate metabolism problems, then foods containing L-lactic acid could be a solution, since they act to increase glycogen, and correct blood alkalosis, but are unlikely to produce overly-acid blood. The reference for the increased glycogen is 'Lactic Acid Update,' an article in 'Search for Health,' Vol. 1, No. 6, July/August 1993, (pub: Valentine Communications, Naples, Fl), page 13 -- quote: " Experiments at the University of Munich by Professor Kandler proved many years ago that only the (+) lactic [L-lactic] acid causes the physiological production of glycogen, which is the principle carbohydrate reserve for the human body. At the same time experiments proved the (-) lactic [D-lactic] acid causes a serious disturbance of the normal metabolism. " So, your statement, " too much carbos " may actually be an unintentional reference to insufficient production of " glycogen, which is the principle carbohydrate reserve for the human body. " This particular problem with carbos (failure to convert enough to glycogen) could well be caused by excessive D-lactic acid, and may potentially be corrected by adding L-lactic acid foods to the diet. > My son was SUSPECTED to have (not confirmed) pyruvate carboxylase > deficiency where he builds up too much pyruvate and lactic acid. The basic question: Does this buildup of " too much pyruvate and lactic acid " involve the healthy L-lactic acid (unlikely), or the unhealthy D-lactic acid. If the latter (likely in my opinion), the direct solution may well be to add healthy, L-lactic-acid foods to the diet. Hope that helps. Best regards, Bill At 09:49 AM 7-18-2000 -0700, you wrote: > >I have this to throw at you... >My son was SUSPECTED to have (not confirmed ) pyruvate carboxylase >deficiency where he builds up too much pyruvate and lactic acid. >I was told that this was genetically inherited. Then, I go to the >tables and find that mercury can halt kreb cycles pretty well. He >suffered a very bad reaction after his routine vacs at 19 months, >almost died 11 days after with some kind of encelphalitic response >to them, definately injured, though does not show injury with MRI >and spects, thank god. Have another daughter, also autistic (hi >functioning), she did not get as much mercury becuase I refused P >in DPT after my sons experience, (thinking I was being smart to do >so, not). >Blood that is acidic is also contributed, no? from processed foods >as well. As well as too much carbos? Mercury does something to >the carbohydrate metabolism....does that make sense? >Kathy > > > Re: [ ] lactic acid > > >>Vera wrote: >>> How do you decrease lactic acid? >> >> Decrease lactic acid buildup in the body's cells by eating >> L-lactic acid containing foods, such as buttermilk, yogurt, >> sauerkraut, cottage cheese, kombucha tea, and lactic-acid >> probiotics (lactobacillus). A buildup of bad D-lactic acid >> prevents acid secretion from tissues into the blood, thereby >> producing blood alkalinity. L-lactic acid foods, together >> with vigorous exercise and sweating, as in a sauna, are >> anti-cancer and promote excretion of wastes. All of these >> together will eliminate the unhealthy build-up of D- and >> DL-lactic acid in the body, and help regulate the proper pH >> of the blood. To over-simplify : >> >> LACTIC ACID is: L-LACTIC ACID = good, increases glycogen, prevents >> buildup of bad lactic acids. >> and: D-LACTIC ACID = bad, from vigorous exercise, >> it must be removed from the body. >> and: DL-LACTIC ACID = bad, forms in low oxygen and sugar >> fermentation that promote cancer. >> >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> Excerpted from : Twelve Vital Nutritional And Health Topics >> Copyright © 1991 By Gus J. Prosch, Jr. , M.D. >> Chapter 18 : http://prosch.com/perfect/perfect18.html >> Or the entire book in one large file : >> http://garynull.com/Documents/Arthritis/Perfect_Health.htm >> >> 6. FERMENTED FOODS >> >> Fermentation was one of the first methods of preservation discovered >> for foods. Bemuse of the fermentation process, foods such as >> sauerkraut, pickles, yogurt, cheeses, buttermilk, and cottage cheese >> came into existence. All of these foods in their natural form have >> a long history of use and are highly acceptable in dietary items. >> I've learned from researchers in Germany that there are two kinds of >> lactic acid produced by the body. When all body processes are >> functioning properly, the body produces a form of lactic acid called >> L-lactic acid, and when the body is overly stressed and not >> functioning properly, a bad form of lactic acid called D-lactic acid >> is produced. Even today, with many of my patients with chronic >> degenerative diseases, I have found that by supplementing extra >> L-lactic acid for these patients, their improvement is greatly >> enhanced. As the fermentation process acts to produce primarily >> L-lactic acid, this natural acid is common to the previously named >> foods This L-lactic acid seems to have a " preservative " effect on >> the intestinal tract as well. Such foods as yogurt and buttermilk >> thus have an enviable reputation for being favorable to intestinal >> environment. The Fermentation process also seems to act somewhat as >> a " predigesting factor. " Tough fibers are made softer, nutrients >> may be released from their biological hold, such as lactose (milk >> sugar), which is richer in buttermilk than in sweet milk. It has >> also been found that lactose favorably influences and enhances the >> absorption of calcium. >> >> Two Good Fermented Foods >> >> There are two foods that are outstanding in the fermented food >> class: buttermilk and sauerkraut. They are easily available and >> both are very rich sources of L-lactic acid. Buttermilk is >> preferred, of course, because of its high protein and calcium >> content. But those who do not care for buttermilk should consider >> sauerkraut as a source of L-lactic acid. It would be a good health >> practice to try to include some fermented foods in your diet each >> day, like buttermilk, yogurt, sauerkraut, or cottage cheese. >> >> >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> Excerpted from : >> Kombucha FAQ >> http://persweb.direct.ca/chaugen/kombucha_faq_part01fb.html >> >> 6.67 Does lactic acid in Kombucha have an impact on muscle strength? >> >> Build-up of lactic acid in the muscles does cause deterioration. >> However, there are two kinds of lactic acid: d-lactic acid and >> l-lactic acid. These are isomers of each other, in scientific >> language. One is the mirror image of the other. In other words, >> when one holds something up to a mirror, the reflection is identical >> except what is on the right, is on the left in the mirror, hence a >> " mirror image " . The lactic acid in Kombucha Tea is the mirror image >> of the one generated in the body that causes a deterioration of >> muscle performance. The lactic acid generated by muscle action is >> bad and needs to be expelled from the body. So, the lactic acid in >> Kombucha doesn't decrease muscle performance, rather it should >> enhance it. >> >> >> >> >>. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2000 Report Share Posted July 18, 2000 << > ....pyruvate carboxylase deficiency where he builds up too much > pyruvate and lactic acid. >> This is a known and rare condition that leaves the kid a LOT more messed up than just being autistic. There is also a specific compound they test for that is present in it and not if he just has some extra pyruvate due to being toxic. It is extremely common for MD physicians to assert an extremely rare diagnosis that is in their textbook and clearly doesn't cover your kid instead of doing a bit of homework and figuring out what is actually going on. I know this has happened to other people on the list. Remember, a diagnosis is just an opinion and MD's are even more opinionated than Andy is! They need a physician's license to be so opinionated! So whenever you get a highly opinionated diagnosis it is up to you to decide what YOUR opinion is. With silly stuff like this it is good to make them copy you some textbook pages and then ask them about all the signs and symptoms your kid doesn't have and make them test for all the laboratory abnormalities that aren't present. Andy Cutler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2000 Report Share Posted July 18, 2000 << I'm no expert on this, however in order to establish some potential link with mercury, it seems to me that you'd need to first obtain evidence that the (suspected) mercury affects this portion (pyruvate carboxylase) of the Krebs acid cycle >> Standard clinical laboratory textbooks say that heavy metal intoxication elevates pyruvate. That should be good enough for most MD's. Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2000 Report Share Posted July 18, 2000 In a message dated 7/18/00 3:32:26 PM, kingsbry@... writes: << The basic question: Does this buildup of " too much pyruvate and lactic acid " involve the healthy L-lactic acid (unlikely), or the unhealthy D-lactic acid. If the latter (likely in my opinion), the direct solution may well be to add healthy, L-lactic-acid foods to the diet. >> Most likely it involves L-lactate from the anaerobic metabolism of glucose due to the mitochondria's inability to conduct oxidative phosphorylation rapidly enough to keep up with metabolic demand. Pyruvate is one of the intermediates in the Krebs cycle for oxidative energy production and if it is high this means the cycle is blocked and can't go as fast as it has to. In that case the body turns glucose into L-lactate to make energy. Andy Cutler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2000 Report Share Posted July 18, 2000 << Dr shaw gave me a number of reasons as follows: “Lactic acid may be elevated in a wide range of conditions including the pyruvate dehydrogenase, pyruvate carboxylase, 6 diphosphatase, and phosphenol-pyruvate carboxykinase, and dihydrolipoyl dehydrogenase deficiencies, glycogen storage disease type I, fructose 1, and respiratory chain deficiencies”>> All extremely serious genetic conditions that are quite rare. << Additionally, vigorous exercise, bacterial overgrowth of intestines, shock, and anemia will elevate lactic acid. >> So he listed all the conditions that are either extremely rare or that mostly aren't relevant to your kid and left out the important one - heavy metal intoxication. Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2000 Report Share Posted July 18, 2000 In a message dated 7/18/00 7:46:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kblanco@... writes: << Dr shaw gave me a number of reasons as follows: “Lactic acid may be elevated in a wide range of conditions including the pyruvate dehydrogenase, pyruvate carboxylase, 6 diphosphatase, and phosphenol-pyruvate carboxykinase, and dihydrolipoyl dehydrogenase deficiencies, glycogen storage disease type I, fructose 1, and respiratory chain deficienciesâ€â€”Wm. Shaw. Additionally, vigorous exercise, bacterial overgrowth of intestines, shock, and anemia will elevate lactic acid. >> Correct me if you think that I am wrong, but my reading of the literature regarding enzymes is that they are essentially given functional names, and may or may not exist as independent chemical substances. In fact it is perhaps a functional region of several different macromolecules in physiological balance that act to catalyze a certain reaction. I think that this is critical to distinguish in people's minds because it would be incorrect to try to interpret metabolic disorders in terms of enzymatic " players " . In this case, people would essentially be conceptualizing mercury as the micro-god of physiological destruction, and disorder. My understanding is that although people do decode DNA, anticipate the function of RNA, and model the structural formulas of frozen proteins, the descriptive names offered for process enzymes such as " pyruvate dehydrogenase " are mythical at physiological temperatures and pressures at best, and any discussion of them as above is tantamount to astrology. Having said that, consider that mercury is an elemental substance that can be much better understood for its interaction in physiological space in general. I would be happy if people on this list would get back to the real issue of this list. Autism and Mercury poisoning from thimerosal. Perhaps the government agencies don't believe the community of people trying to cure autism now, because they get lost in the same lingo, that led us down several wrong paths of this maze for several years! Joe Marciano One day, I will draw a cartoon of mercury kidnaperase emerging from a bottle of alpha lipoic acid, teaming up with mercury chelaterase from a capsule of DMSA, together the caption will read they will make the brain safe for life, liberty and improved function. Somehow this will happen behind the backs of a group of doctors innoculating a group of politicians standing in front of a stock exchange. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2000 Report Share Posted July 18, 2000 In a message dated 7/18/00 10:19:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kblanco@... writes: << Dr ( Washington hospital-now retired) would help this discussion, as it was her observation that a high number of kids with autism have mitochondrial exhaustion. Anybody know how I can get a hold of her to get on this list? >> It would be very interesting to hear her perspective on the thimerosal revelations. In a tape which I had of her at a conference several years ago, I remember her talking about the multiple etiologies of autism. I always though she was the most rational person I had encountered in the autism community. If anyone has a link to her, it would be great to hear her opinion. Joe Marciano Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2000 Report Share Posted July 19, 2000 Dr shaw gave me a number of reasons as follows: “Lactic acid may be elevated in a wide range of conditions including the pyruvate dehydrogenase, pyruvate carboxylase, 6 diphosphatase, and phosphenol-pyruvate carboxykinase, and dihydrolipoyl dehydrogenase deficiencies, glycogen storage disease type I, fructose 1, and respiratory chain deficiencies”—Wm. Shaw. Additionally, vigorous exercise, bacterial overgrowth of intestines, shock, and anemia will elevate lactic acid. Re: [ ] lactic acid >> >> >>>Vera wrote: >>>> How do you decrease lactic acid? >>> >>> Decrease lactic acid buildup in the body's cells by eating >>> L-lactic acid containing foods, such as buttermilk, yogurt, >>> sauerkraut, cottage cheese, kombucha tea, and lactic-acid >>> probiotics (lactobacillus). A buildup of bad D-lactic acid >>> prevents acid secretion from tissues into the blood, thereby >>> producing blood alkalinity. L-lactic acid foods, together >>> with vigorous exercise and sweating, as in a sauna, are >>> anti-cancer and promote excretion of wastes. All of these >>> together will eliminate the unhealthy build-up of D- and >>> DL-lactic acid in the body, and help regulate the proper pH >>> of the blood. To over-simplify : >>> >>> LACTIC ACID is: L-LACTIC ACID = good, increases glycogen, prevents >>> buildup of bad lactic acids. >>> and: D-LACTIC ACID = bad, from vigorous exercise, >>> it must be removed from the body. >>> and: DL-LACTIC ACID = bad, forms in low oxygen and sugar >>> fermentation that promote cancer. >>> >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> Excerpted from : Twelve Vital Nutritional And Health Topics >>> Copyright © 1991 By Gus J. Prosch, Jr. , M.D. >>> Chapter 18 : http://prosch.com/perfect/perfect18.html >>> Or the entire book in one large file : >>> http://garynull.com/Documents/Arthritis/Perfect_Health.htm >>> >>> 6. FERMENTED FOODS >>> >>> Fermentation was one of the first methods of preservation discovered >>> for foods. Bemuse of the fermentation process, foods such as >>> sauerkraut, pickles, yogurt, cheeses, buttermilk, and cottage cheese >>> came into existence. All of these foods in their natural form have >>> a long history of use and are highly acceptable in dietary items. >>> I've learned from researchers in Germany that there are two kinds of >>> lactic acid produced by the body. When all body processes are >>> functioning properly, the body produces a form of lactic acid called >>> L-lactic acid, and when the body is overly stressed and not >>> functioning properly, a bad form of lactic acid called D-lactic acid >>> is produced. Even today, with many of my patients with chronic >>> degenerative diseases, I have found that by supplementing extra >>> L-lactic acid for these patients, their improvement is greatly >>> enhanced. As the fermentation process acts to produce primarily >>> L-lactic acid, this natural acid is common to the previously named >>> foods This L-lactic acid seems to have a " preservative " effect on >>> the intestinal tract as well. Such foods as yogurt and buttermilk >>> thus have an enviable reputation for being favorable to intestinal >>> environment. The Fermentation process also seems to act somewhat as >>> a " predigesting factor. " Tough fibers are made softer, nutrients >>> may be released from their biological hold, such as lactose (milk >>> sugar), which is richer in buttermilk than in sweet milk. It has >>> also been found that lactose favorably influences and enhances the >>> absorption of calcium. >>> >>> Two Good Fermented Foods >>> >>> There are two foods that are outstanding in the fermented food >>> class: buttermilk and sauerkraut. They are easily available and >>> both are very rich sources of L-lactic acid. Buttermilk is >>> preferred, of course, because of its high protein and calcium >>> content. But those who do not care for buttermilk should consider >>> sauerkraut as a source of L-lactic acid. It would be a good health >>> practice to try to include some fermented foods in your diet each >>> day, like buttermilk, yogurt, sauerkraut, or cottage cheese. >>> >>> >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> Excerpted from : >>> Kombucha FAQ >>> http://persweb.direct.ca/chaugen/kombucha_faq_part01fb.html >>> >>> 6.67 Does lactic acid in Kombucha have an impact on muscle strength? >>> >>> Build-up of lactic acid in the muscles does cause deterioration. >>> However, there are two kinds of lactic acid: d-lactic acid and >>> l-lactic acid. These are isomers of each other, in scientific >>> language. One is the mirror image of the other. In other words, >>> when one holds something up to a mirror, the reflection is identical >>> except what is on the right, is on the left in the mirror, hence a >>> " mirror image " . The lactic acid in Kombucha Tea is the mirror image >>> of the one generated in the body that causes a deterioration of >>> muscle performance. The lactic acid generated by muscle action is >>> bad and needs to be expelled from the body. So, the lactic acid in >>> Kombucha doesn't decrease muscle performance, rather it should >>> enhance it. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>. >> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Old school buds here: >1/7081/9/_/705339/_/963959436/ >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2000 Report Share Posted July 19, 2000 EXACT a mundo. Even my own neurologist goes " well if is testing like this, perhaps I should test all my other autistic patients, this is quite rare you know " . " It would explain all the cognition deficits I see in them, muscle wasting and seizures " . I always felt becuase they saw it in urine and skin biopsy and could not confirm it on the muscle biopsy THEN THEY WERE WRONG. He didn't have unusually shaped mitochondria or anything of the sort. Then I get letters to my insurance stating " leighs like picture " and then I read that is a death sentance, in essence, so what was I to think? Now I am seeing the " bigger picture " and is evident to me that he is sooo mercury poisined, not even funny. A lot of ASD kids have " mito " looking diseases.....is it rare or is it becuase all of us had the needler hang over them. Dr (george washington hospital-now retired) would help this discussion, as it was her observation that a high number of kids with autism have mitochondrial exhaustion. Anybody know how I can get a hold of her to get on this list? Kathy Re: [ ] lactic acid << Dr shaw gave me a number of reasons as follows: “Lactic acid may be elevated in a wide range of conditions including the pyruvate dehydrogenase, pyruvate carboxylase, 6 diphosphatase, and phosphenol-pyruvate carboxykinase, and dihydrolipoyl dehydrogenase deficiencies, glycogen storage disease type I, fructose 1, and respiratory chain deficiencies”>> All extremely serious genetic conditions that are quite rare. << Additionally, vigorous exercise, bacterial overgrowth of intestines, shock, and anemia will elevate lactic acid. >> So he listed all the conditions that are either extremely rare or that mostly aren't relevant to your kid and left out the important one - heavy metal intoxication. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Make new friends, find the old at Classmates.com: 1/7075/9/_/705339/_/963970880/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2000 Report Share Posted July 19, 2000 I like your thinking Kathy Re: [ ] lactic acid In a message dated 7/18/00 7:46:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kblanco@... writes: << Dr shaw gave me a number of reasons as follows: “Lactic acid may be elevated in a wide range of conditions including the pyruvate dehydrogenase, pyruvate carboxylase, 6 diphosphatase, and phosphenol-pyruvate carboxykinase, and dihydrolipoyl dehydrogenase deficiencies, glycogen storage disease type I, fructose 1, and respiratory chain deficienciesâ€â€”Wm. Shaw. Additionally, vigorous exercise, bacterial overgrowth of intestines, shock, and anemia will elevate lactic acid. >> Correct me if you think that I am wrong, but my reading of the literature regarding enzymes is that they are essentially given functional names, and may or may not exist as independent chemical substances. In fact it is perhaps a functional region of several different macromolecules in physiological balance that act to catalyze a certain reaction. I think that this is critical to distinguish in people's minds because it would be incorrect to try to interpret metabolic disorders in terms of enzymatic " players " . In this case, people would essentially be conceptualizing mercury as the micro-god of physiological destruction, and disorder. My understanding is that although people do decode DNA, anticipate the function of RNA, and model the structural formulas of frozen proteins, the descriptive names offered for process enzymes such as " pyruvate dehydrogenase " are mythical at physiological temperatures and pressures at best, and any discussion of them as above is tantamount to astrology. Having said that, consider that mercury is an elemental substance that can be much better understood for its interaction in physiological space in general. I would be happy if people on this list would get back to the real issue of this list. Autism and Mercury poisoning from thimerosal. Perhaps the government agencies don't believe the community of people trying to cure autism now, because they get lost in the same lingo, that led us down several wrong paths of this maze for several years! Joe Marciano One day, I will draw a cartoon of mercury kidnaperase emerging from a bottle of alpha lipoic acid, teaming up with mercury chelaterase from a capsule of DMSA, together the caption will read they will make the brain safe for life, liberty and improved function. Somehow this will happen behind the backs of a group of doctors innoculating a group of politicians standing in front of a stock exchange. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Missing old school friends? Find them here: 1/7079/9/_/705339/_/963974986/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2000 Report Share Posted July 19, 2000 << Standard clinical laboratory textbooks say that heavy metal intoxication elevates pyruvate. That should be good enough for most MD's. >> I am getting no where fast trying to understand all of this. These were 's scores. Any ideas? He is 3 years 10 months old. Lactic 205.03 mmol/mol creatinine reference range 0-100 pyruvic 3.08 mmol/mol creatinine reference range 0-50 2-hydroxybutyric 12.04 mmol/mol creatinine reference range 0-2 glyceric 67.92 mmol/mol creatinine reference range 0-10 pyroglutanic 4mmol/mol creatinine reference range 20-115 citramalic 2.75 mmol/mol creatinine reference range 0-2 3-oxoglutaric .55 mmol/mol creatinine reference range 0-5 DHHPA analog 153mmol/mol creatinine reference range 0-150 citric 393 mmol/mol creatinine reference range 20-200 hippuric 1362mmol/mol creatinine reference range 10-400 I have read the explanation that came with the results, but really don't understand them. If anyone has any idea of where I can read about these things so that I can understand what this stuff means I would be VERY greatful. Thanks! Jody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2000 Report Share Posted July 20, 2000 Kathy wrote: > ....pyruvate carboxylase deficiency where he builds up too much > pyruvate and lactic acid. I was told that this was genetically > inherited. .... mercury can halt kreb cycles pretty well. Excerpted from below: " Elevated levels of pyruvate may reflect failure of the enzyme due to a functional need for increased B vitamins, particularly thiamin and pantothenic acid. " " Multiple forms of pyruvate carboxylase deficiency, some of which are biotin responsive, have been reported [15]. " " Coenzyme Q10 has been used successfully to improve mitochondrial function in several clinical situations [15,16] and may be useful in the treatment of fatigue particularly when both lactate and pyruvate are elevated. " Also, manganese appears to be prominent in these pathways. Biotin is best assimilated in the co-enzyme form. Bill from: http://www.metametrix.com/articles/artcl_uoa.htm Organic Compounds in Urine: Metabolic Profiling to Assess Functional Nutrient Deficiencies Gut Dysbiosis, and Toxicity J. Bralley, Ph.D., C.C.N. and S. Lord, Ph.D. Source: Natural Medicine (1998), Pizzorno and Murray, Churchill Livingstone, London. <snip> Lactate and Pyruvate These two compounds provide useful insight to basic metabolic factors due to their position in the energy production process. Pyruvate is the anaerobic breakdown product of glucose. Its further conversion to acetyl-CoA requires the pyruvate dehydrogenase enzyme complex. Pyruvate dehydrogenase requires cofactors derived from thiamin, riboflavin, niacin, lipoic acid, and pantothenic acid for optimal function. Elevated levels of pyruvate may reflect failure of the enzyme due to a functional need for increased B vitamins, particularly thiamin and pantothenic acid. Lactate accumulates when there is a block in the final oxidative phosphorylation (ox/phos) stage of energy production. Such a block results in inactivation of the CAC. Coenzyme Q10 has been used in cases of lactic acidosis associated with ox/phos impairments. [13,14] Increased lactate is a common acidotic condition that can be caused by a variety of metabolic problems. Decreased lactate is seen in people with very little physical activity. Highly trained athletes have such efficient conversion of lactate to glucose that they also demonstrate lower lactate levels. Levels of pyruvate in the tissues are further controlled by the biotin-containing protein, pyruvate carboxylase, which controls the first step in the reformation of glucose from pyruvate. Multiple forms of pyruvate carboxylase deficiency, some of which are biotin responsive, have been reported [15]. <snip> References 13. Wallace DC, Mitochondrial genetics: A paradigm for aging and degenerative diseases? Science 1992;256:628-632. 14. Corral-Debrinksi M, Shoffener JM, Lott MT, Wallace DC, Association of mitochondrial DNA damage with aging and coronary atherosclerotic heart disease. Mutat Res 1992;275:169-180. 15. BH, Lactic acidemia (disorders of pyruvate carboxylase, pyruvate dehydrogenase). in Abnormalities in amino acid metabolism in clinical medicine, W Nyhan 1984. Appleton-Century-Crofts, Norwalk: 1478-89. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: AndyCutler@... kingsbry@... Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 Subj: Re: [ ] Metametrix website information on organic acids interpretation <snip> Hydroxymethylglutarate (HMG): This compound is the metabolic precursor of cholesterol and coenzyme Q10 (CoQ10). Low levels may reflect inadequate synthesis and possible deficiency of coenzyme Q10. Cholesterol lowering drugs that block utilization of HMG for cholesterol synthesis also lower coenzyme Q10 levels.13 Therefore, low levels of HMG may indicate suboptimal synthesis of CoQ10. CoQ10 is utilized in the mitochondrial oxidative phosphorylation pathway for ATP synthesis and is a potent anti-oxidant. It has been used extensively as a cardiovascular protective agent.14 Coenzyme Q10 has been used successfully to improve mitochondrial function in several clinical situations15,16 and MAY BE USEFUL IN THE TREATMENT OF FATIGUE PARTICULARLY WHEN BOTH LACTATE AND PYRUVATE ARE ELEVATED. This could reflect the inability of mitochrondrial oxidative phosphorylation to proceed efficiently possibly due to CoQ10 insufficiency. References 13. Folkers K, Langsjoen P, Willis R et al. Lovastatin decreases coenzyme Q levels in humans. Proc Nat Acad Sci USA. 87(22):8931-4(1990). 14. Mortensen SA, Vadhanavikit S, Muratsu K, Folkers K. Coenzyme Q10: clinical benefits with biochemical correleates suggesting a scientific breakthrough in the management of chronic heart failure. Int J Tissue React. 12(3):155-62(1990). 15. Nishikawa Y, Takahashi M, Yorifuji S et al. Long-term coenzyme Q10 therapy for a mitochondrial encephalomyopathy with cytochrome C oxidase deficiency: a 31P NMR study. Neurology. 39(3):399-403(1989). 16. Ogasahara S, Engel AG, Frens D, Mack D. Muscle coenzyme Q deficiency in familial mitochondrial encephalomyopathy. Proc Natl Acad Sci USA ;89(7):2379-82(1989). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2000 Report Share Posted July 21, 2000 I use biotin, CoQ10, B vitamins etc, this has helped. Also using right not JAmar (sp?) glutathione. Kathy Re: [ ] lactic acid >Kathy wrote: >> ....pyruvate carboxylase deficiency where he builds up too much >> pyruvate and lactic acid. I was told that this was genetically >> inherited. .... mercury can halt kreb cycles pretty well. > >Excerpted from below: > > " Elevated levels of pyruvate may reflect failure of the enzyme > due to a functional need for increased B vitamins, particularly > thiamin and pantothenic acid. " > > " Multiple forms of pyruvate carboxylase deficiency, some of > which are biotin responsive, have been reported [15]. " > > " Coenzyme Q10 has been used successfully to improve mitochondrial > function in several clinical situations [15,16] and may be useful > in the treatment of fatigue particularly when both lactate and > pyruvate are elevated. " > > >Also, manganese appears to be prominent in these pathways. >Biotin is best assimilated in the co-enzyme form. > >Bill > > > from: > http://www.metametrix.com/articles/artcl_uoa.htm > > Organic Compounds in Urine: Metabolic Profiling to Assess > Functional Nutrient Deficiencies Gut Dysbiosis, and Toxicity > > J. Bralley, Ph.D., C.C.N. and S. Lord, Ph.D. > Source: Natural Medicine (1998), Pizzorno and Murray, Churchill > Livingstone, London. > <snip> > > Lactate and Pyruvate > > These two compounds provide useful insight to basic metabolic > factors due to their position in the energy production process. > Pyruvate is the anaerobic breakdown product of glucose. Its > further conversion to acetyl-CoA requires the pyruvate > dehydrogenase enzyme complex. Pyruvate dehydrogenase requires > cofactors derived from thiamin, riboflavin, niacin, lipoic acid, > and pantothenic acid for optimal function. Elevated levels of > pyruvate may reflect failure of the enzyme due to a functional need > for increased B vitamins, particularly thiamin and pantothenic > acid. > > Lactate accumulates when there is a block in the final oxidative > phosphorylation (ox/phos) stage of energy production. Such a block > results in inactivation of the CAC. Coenzyme Q10 has been used in > cases of lactic acidosis associated with ox/phos impairments. > [13,14] Increased lactate is a common acidotic condition that can > be caused by a variety of metabolic problems. Decreased lactate is > seen in people with very little physical activity. Highly trained > athletes have such efficient conversion of lactate to glucose that > they also demonstrate lower lactate levels. > > Levels of pyruvate in the tissues are further controlled by the > biotin-containing protein, pyruvate carboxylase, which controls the > first step in the reformation of glucose from pyruvate. Multiple > forms of pyruvate carboxylase deficiency, some of which are biotin > responsive, have been reported [15]. > > <snip> > > References > > 13. Wallace DC, Mitochondrial genetics: A paradigm for aging and > degenerative diseases? Science 1992;256:628-632. > > 14. Corral-Debrinksi M, Shoffener JM, Lott MT, Wallace DC, > Association of mitochondrial DNA damage with aging and > coronary atherosclerotic heart disease. Mutat Res > 1992;275:169-180. > > 15. BH, Lactic acidemia (disorders of pyruvate > carboxylase, pyruvate dehydrogenase). in Abnormalities in > amino acid metabolism in clinical medicine, W Nyhan 1984. > Appleton-Century-Crofts, Norwalk: 1478-89. > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > From: AndyCutler@... > kingsbry@... > Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 > Subj: Re: [ ] Metametrix website information on > organic acids interpretation > > <snip> > > Hydroxymethylglutarate (HMG): > > This compound is the metabolic precursor of cholesterol and > coenzyme Q10 (CoQ10). Low levels may reflect inadequate > synthesis and possible deficiency of coenzyme Q10. Cholesterol > lowering drugs that block utilization of HMG for cholesterol > synthesis also lower coenzyme Q10 levels.13 Therefore, low > levels of HMG may indicate suboptimal synthesis of CoQ10. CoQ10 > is utilized in the mitochondrial oxidative phosphorylation > pathway for ATP synthesis and is a potent anti-oxidant. It has > been used extensively as a cardiovascular protective agent.14 > Coenzyme Q10 has been used successfully to improve mitochondrial > function in several clinical situations15,16 and MAY BE USEFUL > IN THE TREATMENT OF FATIGUE PARTICULARLY WHEN BOTH LACTATE AND > PYRUVATE ARE ELEVATED. This could reflect the inability of > mitochrondrial oxidative phosphorylation to proceed efficiently > possibly due to CoQ10 insufficiency. > > > References > > 13. Folkers K, Langsjoen P, Willis R et al. Lovastatin decreases > coenzyme Q levels in humans. Proc Nat Acad Sci USA. > 87(22):8931-4(1990). > > 14. Mortensen SA, Vadhanavikit S, Muratsu K, Folkers K. Coenzyme > Q10: clinical benefits with biochemical correleates suggesting a > scientific breakthrough in the management of chronic heart failure. > Int J Tissue React. 12(3):155-62(1990). > > 15. Nishikawa Y, Takahashi M, Yorifuji S et al. Long-term coenzyme > Q10 therapy for a mitochondrial encephalomyopathy with cytochrome C > oxidase deficiency: a 31P NMR study. Neurology. 39(3):399-403(1989). > > 16. Ogasahara S, Engel AG, Frens D, Mack D. Muscle coenzyme Q > deficiency in familial mitochondrial encephalomyopathy. Proc Natl > Acad Sci USA ;89(7):2379-82(1989). > > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Remember four years of good friends, bad clothes, explosive chemistry >experiments. >1/7077/9/_/705339/_/964132021/ >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 24, 2002 Report Share Posted July 24, 2002 >>>>>One of those links Roman posted (the Google list) also answers the question (a long time back) about lactic acid in food, I think: it gets converted to good ol' glucose. *****does it get converted to glucose in the liver as does the lactic acid produced during excercise? If so, how does it *get* to the liver as lactic acid? I mean, is there a specific enzye carrier for lactic acid? > Lactic acid is a by-product of glucose and glycogen break down during > strength training and other anaerobic activities. The accumulation of > this by-product causes muscle pain and fatigue and eventually slows the > contraction ability. After it is produced the blood carries it to the > liver. In the liver it is converted to glucose and is returned as blood > glucose to your muscles. *******FWIW, another of the links roman posted stated emphatically that lactic acid accumulation in muscle tissue during excercise does NOT cause muscle pain and fatigue, but rather the opposite (since it's converted to glucose it gives more energy). i've read that on more than one occassion. Also, that URL (don't remember it offhand) mentioned that it's actually *lactate* not *lactic acid* that is produced by anaerobic exercise. apparently, they're different. Suze Fisher Web Design & Development http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/ mailto:s.fisher22@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2002 Report Share Posted July 25, 2002 At 06:27 AM 7/24/2002 -0400, you wrote: > >>>>>One of those links Roman posted (the Google list) >also answers the question (a long time back) about lactic >acid in food, I think: it gets converted to good ol' glucose. > > >*****does it get converted to glucose in the liver as does the lactic acid >produced during excercise? If so, how does it *get* to the liver as lactic >acid? I mean, is there a specific enzye carrier for lactic acid? I don't know -- I'm assuming, I guess. In general it seems that the digestive system uses enzymes, bacteria, acid, etc. to break down food until it reaches a component that the system can absorb. Some foods -- like glucose, MCT, and alchohol -- get absorbed almost immediately, and straight out of the stomach (via the portal vein? maybe, that's what they say about MCT -- goes straight to the liver). That's why you feel the effect of alchohol right away, not half an hour later when your stomach empties into your upper intestine. Your body knows how to handle alchohol in the liver (your gut produces about 2 beers worth a day, someone said). If your body normally handles lactic acid in the liver too, then I'd assume the same thing happens -- it just gets shuffled to the liver. How the heck your body " knows " to extract glucose, MCT, alchohol, and all the rest from the rest of the stuff is beyond my knowledgebase. I haven't heard anything at all about digesting lactic acid, except for it's effect on insulin (I haven't searched much either though). > > Lactic acid is a by-product of glucose and glycogen break down during > > strength training and other anaerobic activities. The accumulation of > > this by-product causes muscle pain and fatigue and eventually slows the > > contraction ability. After it is produced the blood carries it to the > > liver. In the liver it is converted to glucose and is returned as blood > > glucose to your muscles. > > >*******FWIW, another of the links roman posted stated emphatically that >lactic acid accumulation in muscle tissue during excercise does NOT cause >muscle pain and fatigue, but rather the opposite (since it's converted to >glucose it gives more energy). i've read that on more than one occassion. >Also, that URL (don't remember it offhand) mentioned that it's actually >*lactate* not *lactic acid* that is produced by anaerobic exercise. >apparently, they're different. I saw something to that effect too. Do we eat lactate? Would that be lactic acid + something = lactate? > Heidi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2002 Report Share Posted July 25, 2002 ---Lactate and lactic acid are differentiated in the Merck Manual and in Dorland's Medical dictionary. There are different forms of lactic acid as well (Dand L). I was just perusing the general biochem book and metabolism is COMPLICATED. One thing I was able to understand is:there is both aerobic and anaerobic pathways(metabolism)of hexoses in the human. There is glycolysis which by def'n is the anaerobic process by which glucose is degraded to 2 moles of lactic acid. And there is alternate glucose catabolism ( any destructive process by which complex substances are converted by living cells into more simple compounds) explained? by the Embden-Meyerhof scheme. The book explains this as the pentose phosphate pathway, also known as the hexose monophosphate shunt(anaerobic pathway). And there's the Tricarboxylic acid cycle explaining? how lactic acid fails to accumulate in a stimulated muscle exposed to air. Krebs received the Nobel Prize in medicine for this discovery in 1953. Well anyway I hope this helps. Dennis In @y..., Heidi Schuppenhauer <heidis@t...> wrote: > At 06:27 AM 7/24/2002 -0400, you wrote: > > >>>>>One of those links Roman posted (the Google list) > >also answers the question (a long time back) about lactic > >acid in food, I think: it gets converted to good ol' glucose. > > > > > >*****does it get converted to glucose in the liver as does the lactic acid > >produced during excercise? If so, how does it *get* to the liver as lactic > >acid? I mean, is there a specific enzye carrier for lactic acid? > > I don't know -- I'm assuming, I guess. In general it seems that the digestive > system uses enzymes, bacteria, acid, etc. to break down food until it > reaches a component that the system can absorb. Some foods -- like > glucose, MCT, and alchohol -- get absorbed almost immediately, and > straight out of the stomach (via the portal vein? maybe, that's what they > say about MCT -- goes straight to the liver). That's why you feel the > effect of alchohol right away, not half an hour later when your stomach > empties into your upper intestine. Your body knows how to handle > alchohol in the liver (your gut produces about 2 beers worth a > day, someone said). > > If your body normally handles lactic acid in the liver too, then I'd > assume the same thing happens -- it just gets shuffled to the liver. > How the heck your body " knows " to extract glucose, MCT, alchohol, > and all the rest from the rest of the stuff is beyond my knowledgebase. > I haven't heard anything at all about digesting lactic acid, except for > it's effect on insulin (I haven't searched much either though). > > > > Lactic acid is a by-product of glucose and glycogen break down during > > > strength training and other anaerobic activities. The accumulation of > > > this by-product causes muscle pain and fatigue and eventually slows the > > > contraction ability. After it is produced the blood carries it to the > > > liver. In the liver it is converted to glucose and is returned as blood > > > glucose to your muscles. > > > > > >*******FWIW, another of the links roman posted stated emphatically that > >lactic acid accumulation in muscle tissue during excercise does NOT cause > >muscle pain and fatigue, but rather the opposite (since it's converted to > >glucose it gives more energy). i've read that on more than one occassion. > >Also, that URL (don't remember it offhand) mentioned that it's actually > >*lactate* not *lactic acid* that is produced by anaerobic exercise. > >apparently, they're different. > > I saw something to that effect too. Do we eat lactate? Would that be lactic > acid + something = lactate? > > > > > Heidi > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2002 Report Share Posted July 25, 2002 > Also, that URL (don't remember it offhand) mentioned that it's actually> *lactate* not *lactic acid* that is produced by anaerobic > exercise. apparently, they're different. Lactic acid is the negative lactate molecule (ion) plus the positive hydrogen ion. In a solution, how much of the lactic acid molecule is dissociated into lactate and H+ ions will depend on the pH and the amount of the lactic acid. Same as for acetic acid and acetate or glutamic acid and glutamate. (Lactate or acetate could also be in a salt with sodium or potassium or calcium isntead of in an acid with hydrogen.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2002 Report Share Posted July 25, 2002 Heidi- >I haven't heard anything at all about digesting lactic acid, except for >it's effect on insulin You've found information on its effect on insulin? How much of an effect does it have? - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2002 Report Share Posted July 25, 2002 At 04:56 AM 7/25/2002 +0000, you wrote: >Lactic acid is the negative lactate molecule (ion) plus the positive >hydrogen ion. In a solution, how much of the lactic acid molecule is >dissociated into lactate and H+ ions will depend on the pH and the >amount of the lactic acid. >Same as for acetic acid and acetate or glutamic acid and glutamate. >(Lactate or acetate could also be in a salt with sodium or potassium >or calcium isntead of in an acid with hydrogen.) Seems like I remember something along those lines from chem 101 -- you mix an acid and a base and you get a salt. So if you mixed kefir with baking soda you'd get some lactate? Heidi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2002 Report Share Posted July 25, 2002 At 01:36 AM 7/25/2002 -0400, you wrote: > >I haven't heard anything at all about digesting lactic acid, except for > >it's effect on insulin > >You've found information on its effect on insulin? How much of an effect >does it have? http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/74/1/96 There was some discussion about this -- It seems like if you drink yogurt before a meal, you get an early burst of insulin, which then flattens the blood suger curve later. I.e. less high blood sugar. I can't vouch for the study, but that matches my observations: kefir or kimchi makes the meal less " glycemic " . crsociety/message/10840 Heidi Schuppenhauer Trillium Custom Software Inc. heidis@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2002 Report Share Posted July 25, 2002 >>>>>--Lactate and lactic acid are differentiated in the Merck Manual and in Dorland's Medical dictionary. There are different forms of lactic acid as well (Dand L). I was just perusing the general biochem book and metabolism is COMPLICATED. --------->Dennis, is your biochem book novice, intermediate, or advanced? I'm looking for a good one. i can handle intermediate (i think) but advanced would be out of my league at this time. Can you tell me the name of it, and do you recommend it? Suze Fisher Web Design & Development http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/ mailto:s.fisher22@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2002 Report Share Posted July 25, 2002 >>>>Lactic acid is the negative lactate molecule (ion) plus the positive hydrogen ion. In a solution, how much of the lactic acid molecule is dissociated into lactate and H+ ions will depend on the pH and the amount of the lactic acid. Same as for acetic acid and acetate or glutamic acid and glutamate. (Lactate or acetate could also be in a salt with sodium or potassium or calcium isntead of in an acid with hydrogen.) ---------->hey martha, didn't know you were on this list! great to know you're here. thanks for the explanation. do you have any idea what happens to lactic acid that is consumed (such as in kefir)? according to a link that heidi posted earlier (http://www.naturalmedecine.org/italiano/cure_natur/distribuzione_flora.htm) the human gut is generally in the neighborhood of pH 6.5-7.5. is the lactate molecule dissasociated from the H+ in neutral pH? i also wonder if there are specific enzymes that break lactic acid into its components, and then what happens to the lactate molecule? is it absorbed by the villi and transported to the liver? Suze Fisher Web Design & Development http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/ mailto:s.fisher22@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2002 Report Share Posted July 25, 2002 >>>>>>>I don't know -- I'm assuming, I guess. In general it seems that the digestive system uses enzymes, bacteria, acid, etc. to break down food until it reaches a component that the system can absorb. Some foods -- like glucose, MCT, and alchohol -- get absorbed almost immediately, and straight out of the stomach (via the portal vein? maybe, that's what they say about MCT -- goes straight to the liver). *****heidi, i know that's the case with alcohol, but are you sure about glucose being absorbed directly from the stomach?? that's the first i'm hearing this. i've reaad about 3 books on digestion so far and don't recall that being mentioned anywhere. maybe they *did* mention it, and i just didn't retain it. typically, unless we're eating straight glucose (does anyone do that?), the glucose is a product of the breakdown of more complex starches in the small intestine, as i know you know. starches do not get digested in the stomach, except to the extent that HCl breaks them down a bit, but they are digested in earnest, in the small intestine. i can't think of any food that would be pure glucose...that would be absorbed directly from the stomach. do body builders consume it straight or something??? >>>>>If your body normally handles lactic acid in the liver too, then I'd assume the same thing happens -- it just gets shuffled to the liver. ****the liver actually converts glucose TO lactic acid, IIRC. I think that's a very different thing than transporting lactic acid from the digestive tract to the liver. I'd really like to know what happens to the lactic acid that us WAP/NT types are consuming in our lacto-fermented foods. what happens to it once we eat/drink it? Suze Fisher Web Design & Development http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/ mailto:s.fisher22@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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