Negative(?) aspects of fermented foods

[Guest guest]

I was looking at some more information on fermented foods last night

and ran across an article that brought up two concerns for me. These

are a few excerpts from the article. What do you think?

" The MSG and alcohol are products of natural fermentation... "

**I'm assuming that any natural occurring MSG as a result of

fermentation is probably safe and the levels are probably much lower

than what most people have problems with (unless you have health

issues). What do you think?

" Fermentation is the process of bacterial growth in a base food that

ultimately dies. " " In a FF (fermented food), the base food

eventually dies; ultimately, the only living part is the bacteria

culture that is growing on the base food. "

**If this is true than I would assume that you just want to eat your

fermented foods as soon as possible, making small batches, and not

making large amounts that could last you for months. Fermentation

doesn't halt the degeneration of vitamins and minerals in foods, does

it? So, just like any other food, it is still best to eat it soon

after it is harvested for maximum quality, right? And if done so,

the quote above would be irrelevant because we would not be letting

our food sit long enough for this to happen, and even if we did,

would this be bad? Since fermented foods are not intended to make up

a large portion of our diet, I can't see how it would make a huge

difference. Any thoughts?

Peace and Love of Christ be with you,

Robin

[Guest guest]

At 04:19 PM 6/24/2002 +0000, you wrote:

> " The MSG and alcohol are products of natural fermentation... "

>

>**I'm assuming that any natural occurring MSG as a result of

>fermentation is probably safe and the levels are probably much lower

>than what most people have problems with (unless you have health

>issues). What do you think?

Our local " canary " (my office mate) is VERY sensitive to MSG and

has problems with soy sauce (fermented) and fish sauce (fermented).

Glutamate comes from proteins, so fermented protein foods probably do

contain MSG. AFAIK it's the same MSG, and the levels can be pretty high.

Fermented foods also create aldehydes (like formaldehyde) and all kinds

of other stuff.

That said, people have been eating fermented foods and having good health

for a long time. MSG doesn't affect everyone, I'm not sure how I feel about

it.

As for alchohol -- so what? Bread has alchohol too. And people used to have

weak beer for breakfast. In lesser amounts, alchohol just isn't an issue. But

the amount in most pickles is really negligable.

> " Fermentation is the process of bacterial growth in a base food that

>ultimately dies. " " In a FF (fermented food), the base food

>eventually dies; ultimately, the only living part is the bacteria

>culture that is growing on the base food. "

Right. A fermented cabbage is not a live cabbage. That's why you

can keep it all winter in fermented form.

>**If this is true than I would assume that you just want to eat your

>fermented foods as soon as possible, making small batches, and not

>making large amounts that could last you for months. Fermentation

>doesn't halt the degeneration of vitamins and minerals in foods, does

>it?

Like cooking, some foods are better fermented than fresh. Fermenting

gets rid of some naturally occuring toxins too. Eating a fresh tomato

is a good thing, and it's live. Eating fermented tomato sauce is a good

thing, for different reasons. Fermenting keeps more of the vitamins

than any other preservation process, and the bacteria actually create

some vitamins of their own. And the process also makes some of the

vitamins and minerals more " bio available " than they were in the live

food. Even plain old wine has every single vitamin in it (except D) --

fermented foods were THE major winter source of vitamins to a lot

of people on earth.

It sounds like the author has a bias towards " live " food. I tend to

agree food is better " live " , but fermented food counts as " live " to me.

> So, just like any other food, it is still best to eat it soon

>after it is harvested for maximum quality, right?

Not necessarily. Some get better with a few months of aging

(like saurkraut). Or years (miso and wine). You should use freshly

picked fruits or vegies if you can though when making the FF.

> And if done so,

>the quote above would be irrelevant because we would not be letting

>our food sit long enough for this to happen, and even if we did,

>would this be bad? Since fermented foods are not intended to make up

>a large portion of our diet, I can't see how it would make a huge

>difference. Any thoughts?

I disagree about the " large portion of the diet " . I went to a really authentic

Korean restaurant a few times and ordered " beef " . It was a little steak,

sliced,

surrounded by 5 piles of different fermented foods, and some rice. In some

cultures, fermented foods made up a BIG portion of the diet -- some nomads

lived pretty much on yogurt or kefir. If you don't have a refrigerator,

fermented

foods are safer and keep better than anything else.

I know that in NT they are referred to as " condiments " , but I can't think of

a health reason for this. Having fermented condiments is a great idea,

but you can pretty much live off kefir and kimchi and I can't think of

any bad health effects. I think most of us are just going slowly because it

is a new thing (and going slowly is a real good idea), but there's not any

good researched reason for not eating as much fermented stuff as you

want.

>Peace and Love of Christ be with you,

>Robin

Heidi Schuppenhauer

Trillium Custom Software Inc.

heidis@...

[Guest guest]

Hi Heidi,

I am new to this board and am finding it very

interesting. When do you think your cookbook is going

to be ready? Sounds like a great idea. Maybe you

could even sell it through N.T.

I have one comment about fermented foods. They are

very acid forming. For a person that is too acid

(this can be tested by saliva and urine), fermented

foods, along with red meats and fats can cause the

person a lot of problems. This person would want to

limit his intake of these foods or at least try to

counteract the acidity by eating more vegetables and

Calcium.

--- Heidi Schuppenhauer <heidis@...>

wrote:

> At 04:19 PM 6/24/2002 +0000, you wrote:

> > " The MSG and alcohol are products of natural

> fermentation... "

> >

> >**I'm assuming that any natural occurring MSG as a

> result of

> >fermentation is probably safe and the levels are

> probably much lower

> >than what most people have problems with (unless

> you have health

> >issues). What do you think?

>

> Our local " canary " (my office mate) is VERY

> sensitive to MSG and

> has problems with soy sauce (fermented) and fish

> sauce (fermented).

> Glutamate comes from proteins, so fermented protein

> foods probably do

> contain MSG. AFAIK it's the same MSG, and the levels

> can be pretty high.

> Fermented foods also create aldehydes (like

> formaldehyde) and all kinds

> of other stuff.

>

> That said, people have been eating fermented foods

> and having good health

> for a long time. MSG doesn't affect everyone, I'm

> not sure how I feel about

> it.

>

> As for alchohol -- so what? Bread has alchohol too.

> And people used to have

> weak beer for breakfast. In lesser amounts, alchohol

> just isn't an issue. But

> the amount in most pickles is really negligable.

>

>

>

> > " Fermentation is the process of bacterial growth in

> a base food that

> >ultimately dies. " " In a FF (fermented food), the

> base food

> >eventually dies; ultimately, the only living part

> is the bacteria

> >culture that is growing on the base food. "

>

> Right. A fermented cabbage is not a live cabbage.

> That's why you

> can keep it all winter in fermented form.

>

> >**If this is true than I would assume that you just

> want to eat your

> >fermented foods as soon as possible, making small

> batches, and not

> >making large amounts that could last you for

> months. Fermentation

> >doesn't halt the degeneration of vitamins and

> minerals in foods, does

> >it?

>

> Like cooking, some foods are better fermented than

> fresh. Fermenting

> gets rid of some naturally occuring toxins too.

> Eating a fresh tomato

> is a good thing, and it's live. Eating fermented

> tomato sauce is a good

> thing, for different reasons. Fermenting keeps more

> of the vitamins

> than any other preservation process, and the

> bacteria actually create

> some vitamins of their own. And the process also

> makes some of the

> vitamins and minerals more " bio available " than they

> were in the live

> food. Even plain old wine has every single vitamin

> in it (except D) --

> fermented foods were THE major winter source of

> vitamins to a lot

> of people on earth.

>

> It sounds like the author has a bias towards " live "

> food. I tend to

> agree food is better " live " , but fermented food

> counts as " live " to me.

>

>

> > So, just like any other food, it is still best to

> eat it soon

> >after it is harvested for maximum quality, right?

>

> Not necessarily. Some get better with a few months

> of aging

> (like saurkraut). Or years (miso and wine). You

> should use freshly

> picked fruits or vegies if you can though when

> making the FF.

>

>

> > And if done so,

> >the quote above would be irrelevant because we

> would not be letting

> >our food sit long enough for this to happen, and

> even if we did,

> >would this be bad? Since fermented foods are not

> intended to make up

> >a large portion of our diet, I can't see how it

> would make a huge

> >difference. Any thoughts?

>

> I disagree about the " large portion of the diet " . I

> went to a really authentic

> Korean restaurant a few times and ordered " beef " . It

> was a little steak,

> sliced,

> surrounded by 5 piles of different fermented foods,

> and some rice. In some

> cultures, fermented foods made up a BIG portion of

> the diet -- some nomads

> lived pretty much on yogurt or kefir. If you don't

> have a refrigerator,

> fermented

> foods are safer and keep better than anything else.

>

> I know that in NT they are referred to as

> " condiments " , but I can't think of

> a health reason for this. Having fermented

> condiments is a great idea,

> but you can pretty much live off kefir and kimchi

> and I can't think of

> any bad health effects. I think most of us are just

> going slowly because it

> is a new thing (and going slowly is a real good

> idea), but there's not any

> good researched reason for not eating as much

> fermented stuff as you

> want.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> >Peace and Love of Christ be with you,

> >Robin

>

> Heidi Schuppenhauer

> Trillium Custom Software Inc.

> heidis@...

>

>

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

And the process also makes some of the

> vitamins and minerals more " bio available " than they were in the

live

> food.

After those vitamins and mineral are available, how long do they last

before they are dead? That's why I thought that eating your

fermented foods as soon as possible would provide the most nutrients,

because at this stage many vitamins and minerals are unlocked and

have not died yet. At this stage I still feel that the food itself

is still " live " because it's nutrients are high, possibly at it's

highest, with more of it's vitamins and minerals being available. At

what point can you declare a food dead though. Yes, it is most

nutritious as soon as it is harvested, but if the food were to

actually, completely die how would compost be so full of nutrients?

I'm thinking that those friendly bacteria eating the " dead " stuff

creates, and puts back into it's environment, lots of good vitamins

and minerals. Therefore, even if the cabbage itself is " dead " , a

batch of sauerkraut will have tons of vitamins and minerals in it

from the good bacteria re-generating nutrients. How else could the

earth re-generate itself? Good bacteria is a good thing. Maybe we

can think of fermented food as the " mother " that gives life, and even

when it dies the life that it gave lives on. Sounds sort of stupid

but I'm thinking of Kefir and the like. Even though the kefir grains

don't die, when the grains are taken away (mama went away) the Kefir

drink is loaded with life, and we are not eating the grains for

nutrients. Therefore, as with Kefir, even if you took the " dead "

cabbage away, the juice that is left probably has loads of goodness

in it. Those good bacteria seem to keep the nutrients alive even if

the source (host) itself is " dead. " That was probably a dumb analogy

but that was all I could think of off the top of my head. Sorry.

Anyway, did any of it make sense? Am I off?

>Even plain old wine has every single vitamin in it (except D) --

Really? Any kind? I will have to drink wine more often. We have it

so rarely. What are some good wines?

> It sounds like the author has a bias towards " live " food. I tend to

> agree food is better " live " , but fermented food counts as " live " to

me.

>

Very much so. I didn't post the whole article because the rest of it

seemed irrelevant to me.

>

> > So, just like any other food, it is still best to eat it soon

> >after it is harvested for maximum quality, right?

>

> Not necessarily. Some get better with a few months of aging

> (like saurkraut). Or years (miso and wine). You should use freshly

> picked fruits or vegies if you can though when making the FF.

I wonder if I could put together a chart showing the nutrition

difference between fresh, un-fermented foods vs. fresh, fermented

foods? I don't know how hard it would be to find the nutrient

contents of lacto-fermented foods on the internet. I would like to

try though; it would be very interesting to see what happens to the

nutrition content of the food after being fermented.

My mind is constantly being dilated on this board. I am learning so

much here.

Peace and Love of Christ be with you,

Robin

[Guest guest]

Lest all this talk of weird chemical production during fermentation

scare anyone, I should add this: you are currently consuming

almost all your food fermented! Your gut does a very good job

(or should) of fermenting lots of stuff, and it creates aldehydes and

alchohol and all the rest.

When you eat probiotic foods, you are making sure your

gut has the best possible mix of bacteria to do it's own fermenting,

and you are easing the load a bit by doing some of the work

in advance. Sometimes the results of excessive fermentation

inside of a person aren't comfortable or socially ideal!

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

At 11:07 AM 6/24/2002 -0700, you wrote:

>Hi Heidi,

>

>I am new to this board and am finding it very

>interesting. When do you think your cookbook is going

>to be ready? Sounds like a great idea. Maybe you

>could even sell it through N.T.

It's on the Files section, in " other " . Just a beginning. I'm adding to it!

And it's free.

>I have one comment about fermented foods. They are

>very acid forming. For a person that is too acid

>(this can be tested by saliva and urine), fermented

>foods, along with red meats and fats can cause the

>person a lot of problems. This person would want to

>limit his intake of these foods or at least try to

>counteract the acidity by eating more vegetables and

>Calcium.

:

We went on about this for awhile. I just don't think it's true, as regards

fermented foods. For one thing,

the whole acid/base thing has to do with the FINAL results of digestion,

and mainly has to do with mineral-type substances. The acid/base lists

list citrus fruits as alkaline, not base.

Your body uses a whole lot of acid to DO the digestion, and it's really

good at regulating the PH of the stomach (unless something goes wrong).

Fermented vegies have all the " alkaline " substances in them, so I'd

guess they would be alkaline, not acid, under that scenario. Cabbage

and fermented cabbage and cooked cabbage would all have about the

same amount of " alkaline " minerals. Kimchi as the Koreans make it

is REALLY full of calcium, because they add whole oysters and fish.

Heidi Schuppenhauer

Trillium Custom Software Inc.

heidis@...

[Guest guest]

At 06:37 PM 6/24/2002 +0000, you wrote:

>After those vitamins and mineral are available, how long do they last

>before they are dead? That's why I thought that eating your

>fermented foods as soon as possible would provide the most nutrients,

>because at this stage many vitamins and minerals are unlocked and

>have not died yet. At this stage I still feel that the food itself

>is still " live " because it's nutrients are high, possibly at it's

>highest, with more of it's vitamins and minerals being available. At

>what point can you declare a food dead though. Yes, it is most

>nutritious as soon as it is harvested, but if the food were to

>actually, completely die how would compost be so full of nutrients?

>I'm thinking that those friendly bacteria eating the " dead " stuff

>creates, and puts back into it's environment, lots of good vitamins

>and minerals. Therefore, even if the cabbage itself is " dead " , a

>batch of sauerkraut will have tons of vitamins and minerals in it

>from the good bacteria re-generating nutrients. How else could the

>earth re-generate itself? Good bacteria is a good thing. Maybe we

>can think of fermented food as the " mother " that gives life, and even

>when it dies the life that it gave lives on. Sounds sort of stupid

>but I'm thinking of Kefir and the like. Even though the kefir grains

>don't die, when the grains are taken away (mama went away) the Kefir

>drink is loaded with life, and we are not eating the grains for

>nutrients. Therefore, as with Kefir, even if you took the " dead "

>cabbage away, the juice that is left probably has loads of goodness

>in it. Those good bacteria seem to keep the nutrients alive even if

>the source (host) itself is " dead. " That was probably a dumb analogy

>but that was all I could think of off the top of my head. Sorry.

>Anyway, did any of it make sense? Am I off?

I wouldn't worry so much about " live " and " dead " -- raw milk isn't really

alive, but it's healthy. The terms are good emotive terms -- packaged cereal

really does feel " dead " , and Celtic salt feels " alive " -- but as far as

usefulness

to figure out what is edible it's hard to define.

Stuff with live " good " bacteria in it is generally good for people for lots

of reasons.

You can get into the chemistry, and some people have (esp. the Koreans!

they are

very proud of their national food!). Fermented cabbage is healthy and has kept

many people scurvy-free for centuries.

I get the impression there are some good analyses of vitamin content etc. but

I haven't found any posted on the web. It really is a mind-expanding field

(esp. when you get into those Sudanese!) and it's a lot of fun. I pretty

much go

by what feels good and tastes good though.

Heidi