Re: macrobiotics, carbs & weight loss

[Guest guest]

At 12:09 PM 7/27/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>I read so much on this board about the cause of weight gain/obesity being

>carbohydrates that I wanted to share my experience with macrobiotics.

>Macrobiotic folks eat a large percentage of their calories as

>carbohydrates, particularly whole grains, and these people are thin!!

>So, perhaps it is all the *refined* carbohydrates that Americans eat that

>cause the problem? I kinda cringe when I hear carbs being vilified --

>similar to how saturated fats are vilified by most. There's a world of

>difference between refined carbs and properly prepared whole grains.

I tend to agree, actually. I probably am not being too clear. I was

on Cliff Sheats for a long time: the grains there aren't " properly

prepared " , but only brown rice and whole grains were allowed, and it

IS difficult to overeat those. However, then I started having other

problems with whole grains. And in our society, the weight problems

are NOT in people eating whole grains (few people do eat whole,

properly prepared grains). Schwartzbein DOES say this, more

or less -- the glycemic issue is more important than the fact

it is a " carb " . Food combining helps a lot too (eating fats and protein with

the meal).

However, I still DO overeat on some " whole " grains -- popcorn being

the biggest culprit, and potatoes. If your blood sugar is ok, you

can probably eat high-carb meals: for me, I need protein in every

meal or I just don't feel good, and I don't do well on meals that

are mostly carb.

That might be different if I could eat whole

grains, but those don't work well for me either! (fermented or not) --

which is the OTHER issue with carbs: the high-carb foods also

tend to be the high-problematic-lectin foods, and a lot of people have allergy

or intolerance issues with those (which seem to be more of a

problem as you age). If they get along with you, great -- but if you

are having digestive problems, or are fat, they are high on the list of

possible

suspects. The lectins can interfere with the villi in the upper intestine,

which really throws off your appestat (makes you hungry all the

time!). Likely grains like millet and quinoa would not have this problem

as much. Not all lectins are problematic, but grain lectins often are.

(yeast and milk come right behind).

In short: when discussing books, everyone should keep in mind that

the books are written for the " typical American " . There are lots

of healthy people around the world eating lots of carbs, but they are very,

very different carbs than are normally consumed around here. But

I would agree: if you choose grains that are ok with your body

and prepare them correctly, then you can eat them and be healthy.

Heidi

[Guest guest]

> In short: when discussing books, everyone should keep in mind that

> the books are written for the " typical American " . There are lots

> of healthy people around the world eating lots of carbs, but they

are very,

> very different carbs than are normally consumed around here. But

> I would agree: if you choose grains that are ok with your body

> and prepare them correctly, then you can eat them and be healthy.

>

>

> Heidi

When comparing grain and carb consumption in other countries we

always FAIL to consider LIFE STYLE! We always here the peasants in

China, or the Italians or Crete.

But these peasants don't own SUVs and minivans. Their primary mode of

transportation is foot and bicycle or public transportation – which

requires walking a distance to the public transportation terminal.

Compare that to Americans that drive to work, spend long hours at the

office, and then try to find time to exercise for 30 minutes 3 times

a week.

The increase in obesity and heart disease in Japan and China are

blamed on influence of the Western Diet. But there hasn't been much

consideration of other influences of Western Society. As the standard

of living in Japan has changed from a poor war ravaged country in the

early 1950s to a modern society in the early 1980s there are more

affluent Japanese that can afford luxury cars, SUVs, and a remote

control color television in every room.

I know a retarded man in about 62 years old that has been able to

leave a group home and live independently. He works to support

himself and bicycles everywhere around this community, which includes

a good amount of hills. He is a lean and muscular, looks much

younger than his age, he is very strong – stronger and has more

stamina than men in there 30s. He does yard work for some people

including digging ditches by shovel and pick. He has no known health

problems. And of course he doesn't have a clue on proper nutrition.

But the fact he has never owned a car must have something to do with

his excellent health.

[Guest guest]

-

>Macrobiotic folks eat a large percentage of their calories as

>carbohydrates, particularly whole grains, and these people are thin!!

Have you also noticed that long-term macrobiotic dieters aren't just thin,

but almost emaciated, and that their skin and hair don't look

healthy? They're malnourished. Their diet has actually damaged their

intestines such that they're not absorbing even what nutrition there is in

their food. (Macrobiotics, or some branches of it, also allows smoking,

which tends to keep weight off for a fairly long time.)

>I kinda cringe when I hear carbs being vilified --

>similar to how saturated fats are vilified by most. There's a world of

>difference between refined carbs and properly prepared whole grains.

There is, of course, a huge difference between white sugar and unrefined

carbs, but that doesn't mean it's good to eat a diet composed of grains and

beans.

-

[Guest guest]

At 06:00 PM 7/27/2002 +0000, you wrote:

>When comparing grain and carb consumption in other countries we

>always FAIL to consider LIFE STYLE! We always here the peasants in

>China, or the Italians or Crete.

>But these peasants don't own SUVs and minivans. Their primary mode of

>transportation is foot and bicycle or public transportation – which

>requires walking a distance to the public transportation terminal.

>Compare that to Americans that drive to work, spend long hours at the

>office, and then try to find time to exercise for 30 minutes 3 times

>a week.

You know, I always heard that (esp. from exercise mavens) and I always

believed it. And while I certainly agree most of us need more exercise,

and lots of aerobics certainly make up for a multitude of dietary " sins " ,

the following issues confuse the issue:

1. The RICH people in the past did not do much exercise. An upper-class

lady travelled by carriage, wore gloves, and had servants. The French

upper class had servants to dress them, serve table, etc. Rich Chinese

women had their feet bound and could barely walk. And they had all

they wanted to eat, and lots of leisure time. And some of them even

got a little chunky. But none of them got as obese as this current wave

of obesity. In the early 1900's, the upper-middle-class in general was

not all that physically active, but if you look at the pictures, most people

were quite slim. Fatter people were usually older males with big bellies.

2. Around here, I see a lot of physical-labor kind of folks (that really

DO work), and they are not slim. In fact, there seem to be a lot

of farmer-types that are really, really obese. They are doing about

the same work as farmers have done for years (at least since the tractor

was invented), but they are fatter. Taking care of animals and crops

is NOT sedentary work!

3. I met a relative of mine in Germany while I was there. She lived

pretty much the same as they've been living for a long time -- no

car, walks everywhere. She was really, really tough and an amazing

walker. She outwalked me, and I was 17 and did a fair amount

of running at the time too!. But she was very fat. So were a lot of the

other Germans around there. All of them walked a lot, and it was

a hilly area. And, the Germans seemed fatter than the French,

who are right next door and at the time seemed to live about

the same lifestyle.

4. The rates of exercise are statistically about the same as they

were 20 years ago, but we are fatter.

5. Some people say hunter-gatherers did not exercise as much as

we commonly believe. They walked around alot, and the men

went on long hunts etc., but there was a lot of sitting around by

the camp, watching kids, sewing etc. too. The actual workday

was shorter than in farming communities. But they were still

slim.

I don't know what the answers are, but the questions are

interesting! Around here people are getting really, really

fat (not just chunky), much more so than when I was a kid.

I don't think their lives have changed all that much in 10-20

years.

Heidi Schuppenhauer

Trillium Custom Software Inc.

heidis@...

[Guest guest]

,

In " Life Without Bread " Allan and Lutz mention people who are too thin and

for whom weight gain is crucial (page 143). They mention that it takes some

time to begin to see the benefits of the low carbohydrate program in the

form of weight gain. If you can find the book you might be intereted in

reading that section.

Peace,

Kris , gardening in northwest Ohio

If you want to hear the good news about butter check out this website:

http://www.westonaprice.org/know_your_fats/know_your_fats.html

----- Original Message -----

From: " L123 M123 " <lm324@...>

< >

Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2002 12:09 PM

Subject: macrobiotics, carbs & weight loss

> Hi All,

>

> I read so much on this board about the cause of weight gain/obesity being

> carbohydrates that I wanted to share my experience with macrobiotics.

> Macrobiotic folks eat a large percentage of their calories as

> carbohydrates, particularly whole grains, and these people are thin!!

> So, perhaps it is all the *refined* carbohydrates that Americans eat that

> cause the problem? I kinda cringe when I hear carbs being vilified --

> similar to how saturated fats are vilified by most. There's a world of

> difference between refined carbs and properly prepared whole grains.

>

> I came down with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome after two years of multiple

> parasitic infestations while living in Kenya. I've been ill for 9 years.

> Two years ago, I decided to try a strict macrobiotic diet to see if it

> would help. (Macrobiotics is unprocessed foods, high in whole grains, no

> sugar, no dairy, fish allowed. The only oils I used were sesame and

> olive.) I ate this way strictly for 1 1/2 years. During this time, I

> lost A LOT of weight, cleared up some of the brain fog and all of the

> nasal problems and improved my energy by about 10%. I felt amazingly

> satisfied on this diet, had no desire for sugar and no desire to snack.

> When I wanted to gain back some weight, my macro counselor said to " eat

> some bread, " -- of course, whole grain sourdough bread! Eating the bread

> didn't help me gain weight, though.

>

> During these 1 1/2 years, I came upon Sally's book and it made sense to

> me! Macro always felt " foreign. " Also, I met Sally at a health food

> store and was struck by how healthy she looked; she glowed! Macro

> people, although thin, often looked a little " gray " to me.

>

> I've never been able to accept vegetarianism philosophically and tried

> macro as an experiement. I owe it a lot, though. It got me off all

> processed foods & sugar, made it clear I couldn't eat dairy, gave me an

> ever-deepening respect for food and agricultural practices. (And it does

> have a strong record for curing cancers -- I think, perhaps, it's a great

> cleansing diet.)

>

> Now I'm 6 months into my transition to native foods. I don't eat quite

> as many whole grains; I've added more meat, lots of ghee, and fermented

> veggies. And I still can't gain weight!! (I'll soon add goat's milk

> kefir & hope that will help with the weight.)

>

> I just wanted to throw into the discussion that there are people (macro)

> eating a high carb diet who lose weight and are thin! I think I

> mentioned before that the diet of many people I met in east Africa was

> high in a staple whole grain or starch and they also were thin.

>

> Are the low-carb advocates referring just to refined carbs? Do their

> studies make a distinction between refined carbs and properly prepared

> whole grains?

>

> Any thoughts would be appreciated!

>

> in MD

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/28/2002 5:50:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lm324@...

writes:

> Also, I lost weight quickly when I switched to

> macro and that is what usually happens. I wonder if omitting all sugar

> and all refined carbs would help anyone lose weight (even if you continue

> eating whole grains).

Hello,

During my two macro-neurotic years I did just this and got very thin without

trying to. Too thin, in fact. I tried macro to help me with candida and

depression. It did help somewhat with the depression, but I think that may

have had more to do with avoiding processed food, sugar, caffeine and alcohol

than anything else. However, I found I had very little energy while on the

diet and often had dreams about cheeseburgers!

When I added flour products, I gained some weight. Then I realized I didn't

really enjoy the rather monotonous diet and dropped it and went back to a

more standard American diet (though not nearly as junk-filled as that of

most). I put on about 50 lbs in what felt like five minutes. I wonder if

two years of macrobiotics made me more susceptible to weight gain; it really

was shocking how fast I gained weight. On macro I was thinner than I've ever

been, but the second I went off it the weight came back almost immediately.

I'm new to NT, just having bought Sally's book a few months ago. I am

gradually transitioning to her recommended diet; it will be interesting to

see how I feel six months from now. I've lost about 20 of the lbs I gained,

but still have about 30 to go.

This group is a welcome, fascinating resource for me.

Cheers,

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

> Have you also noticed that long-term macrobiotic dieters aren't just

> thin, but almost emaciated, and that their skin and hair don't look

> healthy?

Yes, I have noticed that. I only know 3 long-term macrobiotic people and

2 of them look quite " gray " to me. The 3rd person looks good. (In terms

of smoking, though, none of them smoke.) But I know 2 people who cured

their cancers on macro; one was 4th stage ovarian cancer and had been

told there was nothing that could be done.

I'm not an advocate for macrobiotics, though, and wouldn't/don't

recommend it. I brought it up because macro people are thin and eat a

high-carb diet, so I feel there has to be more to the equation " high

carbs = weight gain. " Also, I lost weight quickly when I switched to

macro and that is what usually happens. I wonder if omitting all sugar

and all refined carbs would help anyone lose weight (even if you continue

eating whole grains).

>

> There is, of course, a huge difference between white sugar and

> unrefined

> carbs, but that doesn't mean it's good to eat a diet composed of

> grains and

> beans.

>

Really? What's wrong with grains and beans? Or, are you saying if one

eats only grains and beans? That I would agree with. Living on

disability and already having a high food budget (buying organic, high

quality produce & meat, etc...) I have to get some of my protein from

grains and beans! I won't buy supermarket meat or poultry anymore.

In NT Sally says, " Legumes ... have nourished mankind for centuries.

Throughout the world, they have served as the poor man's meat. The

combination of pulses, whole grains and a small amount of animal protein

and good quality animal fat is the ideal low-cost diet. Legumes are rich

in minerals and B vitamins... All contain both omega-3 and omega-6 fatty

acids... "

If you're against all grains and beans, I'd be interested to know why.

And interested to know what the world's poor are supposed to eat?!

________________________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

Thanks, Kris, I'll check it out. Most books these days only talk about

how to lose weight! I feel that there has to be some way to gain weight

without resorting to sugar and processed/refined foods.

On Sat, 27 Jul 2002 23:19:42 -0400 " Kris "

<kris.johnson@...> writes:

> ,

>

> In " Life Without Bread " Allan and Lutz mention people who are too

> thin and

> for whom weight gain is crucial (page 143). They mention that it

> takes some

> time to begin to see the benefits of the low carbohydrate program in

> the

> form of weight gain. If you can find the book you might be intereted

> in

> reading that section.

>

> Peace,

> Kris , gardening in northwest Ohio

>

> If you want to hear the good news about butter check out this

> website:

> http://www.westonaprice.org/know_your_fats/know_your_fats.html

>

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: " L123 M123 " <lm324@...>

> < >

> Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2002 12:09 PM

> Subject: macrobiotics, carbs & weight loss

>

>

> > Hi All,

> >

> > I read so much on this board about the cause of weight

> gain/obesity being

> > carbohydrates that I wanted to share my experience with

> macrobiotics.

> > Macrobiotic folks eat a large percentage of their calories as

> > carbohydrates, particularly whole grains, and these people are

> thin!!

> > So, perhaps it is all the *refined* carbohydrates that Americans

> eat that

> > cause the problem? I kinda cringe when I hear carbs being

> vilified --

> > similar to how saturated fats are vilified by most. There's a

> world of

> > difference between refined carbs and properly prepared whole

> grains.

> >

> > I came down with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome after two years of

> multiple

> > parasitic infestations while living in Kenya. I've been ill for 9

> years.

> > Two years ago, I decided to try a strict macrobiotic diet to see

> if it

> > would help. (Macrobiotics is unprocessed foods, high in whole

> grains, no

> > sugar, no dairy, fish allowed. The only oils I used were sesame

> and

> > olive.) I ate this way strictly for 1 1/2 years. During this

> time, I

> > lost A LOT of weight, cleared up some of the brain fog and all of

> the

> > nasal problems and improved my energy by about 10%. I felt

> amazingly

> > satisfied on this diet, had no desire for sugar and no desire to

> snack.

> > When I wanted to gain back some weight, my macro counselor said to

> " eat

> > some bread, " -- of course, whole grain sourdough bread! Eating

> the bread

> > didn't help me gain weight, though.

> >

> > During these 1 1/2 years, I came upon Sally's book and it made

> sense to

> > me! Macro always felt " foreign. " Also, I met Sally at a health

> food

> > store and was struck by how healthy she looked; she glowed!

> Macro

> > people, although thin, often looked a little " gray " to me.

> >

> > I've never been able to accept vegetarianism philosophically and

> tried

> > macro as an experiement. I owe it a lot, though. It got me off

> all

> > processed foods & sugar, made it clear I couldn't eat dairy, gave

> me an

> > ever-deepening respect for food and agricultural practices. (And

> it does

> > have a strong record for curing cancers -- I think, perhaps, it's

> a great

> > cleansing diet.)

> >

> > Now I'm 6 months into my transition to native foods. I don't eat

> quite

> > as many whole grains; I've added more meat, lots of ghee, and

> fermented

> > veggies. And I still can't gain weight!! (I'll soon add goat's

> milk

> > kefir & hope that will help with the weight.)

> >

> > I just wanted to throw into the discussion that there are people

> (macro)

> > eating a high carb diet who lose weight and are thin! I think I

> > mentioned before that the diet of many people I met in east Africa

> was

> > high in a staple whole grain or starch and they also were thin.

> >

> > Are the low-carb advocates referring just to refined carbs? Do

> their

> > studies make a distinction between refined carbs and properly

> prepared

> > whole grains?

> >

> > Any thoughts would be appreciated!

> >

> > in MD

> >

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

-

>But I know 2 people who cured

>their cancers on macro; one was 4th stage ovarian cancer and had been

>told there was nothing that could be done.

This may seem like nitpicking, but I don't think it's safe to say they

cured their cancers with a macrobiotic diet. Statistically, a certain

percentage of cancers simply are going to go into remission, so it's hard

to say with any confidence that a particular diet cured a particular

cancer, particularly when the diet in question is so demonstrably

unhealthy. OTOH, many people can improve their health, at least in the

short term, by adopting vegetarian or macrobiotic diets, or other

similarly-harmful diets, simply because those diets generally don't contain

the same toxic load that the common modern diet does -- loads of trans

fats, pesticides, pollutants, etc. However, in the long term, such diets

will be very harmful, and whatever short-term gains they offer will evaporate.

>I wonder if omitting all sugar

>and all refined carbs would help anyone lose weight (even if you continue

>eating whole grains).

Well, yeah, it'll help many people lose weight because their overall

glycemic load will go down. However, it also won't be enough for many

other people. Some people simply have to avoid all grains no matter what.

>Really? What's wrong with grains and beans? Or, are you saying if one

>eats only grains and beans? That I would agree with. Living on

>disability and already having a high food budget (buying organic, high

>quality produce & meat, etc...) I have to get some of my protein from

>grains and beans! I won't buy supermarket meat or poultry anymore.

As protein sources, grains and beans are dramatically inferior to animal

products (meat, eggs, dairy, and fish). Their protein is incomplete,

unbalanced, and often difficult to absorb because of the

fiber. Furthermore, modern methods of preparation and consumption turn

foods that can sustain life into outright lethal poisons, albeit

slow-acting ones. Weston A. Price found that though the healthiest

cultures often ate some grains and/or legumes, they also ate loads of meat

and animal fat, so though some cultures did survive on a relatively

high-carb and low-meat diet, they uniformly didn't do nearly as well.

-

[Guest guest]

>>I'm new to NT, just having bought Sally's book a few months ago. I am

gradually transitioning to her recommended diet; it will be interesting to

see how I feel six months from now. I've lost about 20 of the lbs I gained,

but still have about 30 to go.

This group is a welcome, fascinating resource for me.

-------> Hi ,

welcome to the group! i've been gradually transitioning to more

traditional/primitive nutrition for the past 6 months and have noticed a

tremendous impact on my health. i'm always interested to read other people's

experience when transitioning to traditional nutrition and look forward to

hearing more about your experience. please do let us know how it's going for

you as time passes!

Suze Fisher

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...