Re: diet wars

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/5/02 5:27:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

meuritt@... writes:

> I would appreciate any information from any of you about the protein

insulin

> release. I am not particularly surprised that cheese would, but the meat

> issue

> I'd like to know a bit more about.

I find it pretty hard to believe that beef causes a bigger insulin boost than

pasta. However, since popcorn is pretty low-calorie per volume because of

all the air in it, if it is smothered in palm oil it shouldn't have a very

big insulin boost.

Barry Sears is all over the insulin issue, it's his big thing, and he says

that meat boosts insulin, and that the essential amino acids boost it more

than the non-essential, which is why he advocates eating soy protein.

However, I just read an abstract of a study that found that casein protein

bars have a lower glycemic index than soy protein bars, which contradicts his

point.

Protein also stimulates glucagon, which is, in a way, the antagonist of

insulin.

chris

____

" What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a

heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and

animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of

them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense

compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to

bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature.

Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the

truth, and for those who do them wrong. "

--Saint Isaac the Syrian

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/5/02 6:33:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

meuritt@... writes:

> The anti high protein people are against inducing the state of ketosis by

> eating

> a low carb diet, saying it is unhealthy, but what is supposed to happen

when

> the

> body burns fat it has stored. Isn't ketosis a natural function? The

opposite

> of

> storing fat?

I might be wrong, but my understanding is ketosis is when the body burns

muscle for glucose. Extremely low-carb diets do this, but moderate carb

diets don't. The Zone and the NT/WAPF have roughly equal carb to protein

ratios, with the latter suggesting a little bit more fat. Atkins I think is

lower in carbs. Sears recommends a minimum of carbs of a 1:1 c-p ratio, and

a maximum of 2:1 c-p ratio. So, you hardly need to eat the 80% high-carb

diet to avoid ketosis!

Chris

____

" What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a

heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and

animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of

them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense

compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to

bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature.

Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the

truth, and for those who do them wrong. "

--Saint Isaac the Syrian

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/5/02 7:21:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

Idol@... writes:

> Yeah, wow, that's a serious misconception. Very-low-carb diets do cause

> you to enter ketosis, but you're burning fat and virtually zero muscle

> protein. Ketoacidosis, a condition caused by severe diabetes, is often

> confused with low-carb dietary ketosis, but they're really very different

> things. Low-carb high-fat weight loss diets are actually called

> protein-sparing diets.

So ketosis isn't bad for you?

Chris

____

" What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a

heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and

animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of

them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense

compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to

bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature.

Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the

truth, and for those who do them wrong. "

--Saint Isaac the Syrian

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/5/02 7:46:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

heidis@... writes:

> I'm not sure why insulin is considered " bad " -- it causes you

> to get access to the fat in your fat cells, which is good. The

> OVERPRODUCTION

> of insulin is bad, because it causes you to get low blood sugar, which

makes

> you hungry ... but from my own experience, meat (and kefir) does not do

that.

>

> In fact, when they test protein vs. carbs. the protein fed people do not

get

> hungry near as fast, which would indicate that the blood sugar does not

> have those precipitous drops, and whatever is going on with the

> blood sugar and insulin is OK.

Well, out of the " insulin-bashers " I am most read on Sears (Zone), and he

says that too little insulin will not result in the blood sugar being

absorbed in the cells and too much results in sugar boost followed by low

blood sugar. I think the other " insulin-bashers " probably agree with that,

as you do, but people who advocate high-carbs like to misconstrue what they

are saying to make them look wrong.

chris

____

" What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a

heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and

animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of

them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense

compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to

bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature.

Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the

truth, and for those who do them wrong. "

--Saint Isaac the Syrian

[Guest guest]

On Mon, 05 Aug 2002 16:29:12 -0000, you wrote:

>I saw a banner ad for the site below while reading this list

>on-line at . Another PCRM attempt at demonizing animal

>foods.

>

>http://www.AtkinsDietAlert.org./

>

Pretty much what I expected, and all they really need to do to realize how

worthless their 'facts' are is to go visit the Massai. But I thought this was

interesting:

Misunderstandings and Deceptive Statements

4. “Meat doesn't boost insulin; only carbohydrates do, and that's why they make

people fat.”

Popular books and news stories have encouraged individuals to avoid

carbohydrate-rich foods, suggesting that high-protein foods will not stimulate

insulin release. However, contrary to this popular myth, proteins stimulate

insulin release, just as carbohydrates do. Clinical studies indicate that beef

and cheese cause a bigger insulin release than pasta, and fish produces a bigger

insulin release than popcorn.11

My Comments

not too long ago the fools at Center for Science in the Public Interest told us

that theater popcorn was responsible for clogging arteries. It is my

understanding that what makes theater popcorn so good is (was) either coconut or

palm oil. Both of these oils are held in high esteem on this list. So the PCRM

must be recommending a diet of theater popcorn now because it creates less of a

spike than fish! Gee, and I was just getting used to eating fish :-)

I would appreciate any information from any of you about the protein insulin

release. I am not particularly surprised that cheese would, but the meat issue

I'd like to know a bit more about.

But then, considering the source, I shouldn't doubt that they made up these

facts to suite their own needs.

[Guest guest]

At 09:25 PM 8/5/2002 +0000, you wrote:

>I would appreciate any information from any of you about the protein insulin

>release. I am not particularly surprised that cheese would, but the meat issue

>I'd like to know a bit more about.

>

>But then, considering the source, I shouldn't doubt that they made up these

>facts to suite their own needs.

I don't know -- kefir causes an insulin release too. But NO protein food

causes a surge in

blood sugar. I'm not sure why insulin is considered " bad " -- it causes you

to get access to the fat in your fat cells, which is good. The OVERPRODUCTION

of insulin is bad, because it causes you to get low blood sugar, which makes

you hungry ... but from my own experience, meat (and kefir) does not do that.

In fact, when they test protein vs. carbs. the protein fed people do not get

hungry near as fast, which would indicate that the blood sugar does not

have those precipitous drops, and whatever is going on with the

blood sugar and insulin is OK.

I think, personally, that both Atkins and Schwartzbein are on to something

as far as the diet -- more fat and protein, less carb, at least less than

the normal US diet -- but blaming everything on insulin might be

missing the point.

Like I said before, if everything was problematic

because of carbs and insulin, then there should be some really fat

Asians running around. And people would have been much fatter 100

years ago.

SOMETHING causes Americans to overeat,

it makes our appestats go haywire. The higher-fat-and-protein

diets seem to undo that -- but I don't think the mechanism is

fully explained yet.

Heidi

[Guest guest]

>

>Protein also stimulates glucagon, which is, in a way, the antagonist of

>insulin.

>

>chris

Thanks

i heard about the glucgen/insulin relationship from the Dr Swarzbein radio show

a short while back. It makes perfect sense, every action having an opposite

reaction.

Simple weight loss related question, anyone...

The anti high protein people are against inducing the state of ketosis by eating

a low carb diet, saying it is unhealthy, but what is supposed to happen when the

body burns fat it has stored. Isn't ketosis a natural function? The opposite of

storing fat?

Thanks

Mike

[Guest guest]

Chris-

>I might be wrong, but my understanding is ketosis is when the body burns

>muscle for glucose. Extremely low-carb diets do this, but moderate carb

>diets don't.

Yeah, wow, that's a serious misconception. Very-low-carb diets do cause

you to enter ketosis, but you're burning fat and virtually zero muscle

protein. Ketoacidosis, a condition caused by severe diabetes, is often

confused with low-carb dietary ketosis, but they're really very different

things. Low-carb high-fat weight loss diets are actually called

protein-sparing diets.

-

[Guest guest]

Chris-

>So ketosis isn't bad for you?

Diabetic ketoacidosis is a disastrous, life-threatening

condition. Ordinary ketosis caused by cutting your carbs down for awhile

to lose weight is just fine. Atkins calls it " benign dietary ketosis " , as

compared to the ketoacidosis of diabetes.

-

[Guest guest]

At 08:41 PM 8/5/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>Well, out of the " insulin-bashers " I am most read on Sears (Zone), and he

>says that too little insulin will not result in the blood sugar being

>absorbed in the cells and too much results in sugar boost followed by low

>blood sugar. I think the other " insulin-bashers " probably agree with that,

>as you do, but people who advocate high-carbs like to misconstrue what they

>are saying to make them look wrong.

>

>chris

Which is, I think, totally accurate: if your insulin is out of balance,

then you'll know it (you'll be diabetic or you'll be in insulin shock). So

if something like meat produces insulin, but does not produce

high or low blood sugar, then it must be producing the right amount

of insulin to balance glucagon or whatever.

I've read some of the other authors though, and I think they

are easy to misconstrue: they DO make it sound like anything

that produces insulin is " bad " , by which standard meat

would be bad (which it obviously isn't for blood sugar,

regardless of your aesthetic position). Maybe a better

term is needed, like " prone to blood sugar imbalancing " ,

or " Insulin overproduction " .

Schwartzbein says most drugs cause insulin production,

and are therefore suspect, and statements like that

make me wonder about the logic of the whole thing.

The body builders, for what it's worth, like caffeine because

it causes insulin to rise and release fat from the fat

cells, which can then be burned off.

Heidi

[Guest guest]

> Chris-

>

> >So ketosis isn't bad for you?

>

> Diabetic ketoacidosis is a disastrous, life-threatening

> condition. Ordinary ketosis caused by cutting your carbs down for

awhile

> to lose weight is just fine. Atkins calls it " benign dietary

ketosis " , as

> compared to the ketoacidosis of diabetes.

>

>

>

>

> -

But that doesn't stop the main streanm medicine from using this

confusion to attack low carb diets.

[Guest guest]

On Mon, 05 Aug 2002 18:27:53 -0700, you wrote:

>The body builders, for what it's worth, like caffeine because

>it causes insulin to rise and release fat from the fat

>cells, which can then be burned off.

This is going around the cycling circle lately. When I am out riding,

particularly a longer than two hour ride, I will often have a cup of java,

midway into the ride. Whether it's the buzz of caffeine to someone who drinks

less than three cups a month, or releasing fat for fuel, it does seem to help.

Is there a specific name for the action that causes fat to be burned? Something

leading up to but not ketosis?