Re: Fermenting Veggies

[Guest guest]

You always want to be certain your veggies are submerged. People use many

different methods to accomplish this, I like to use all natural items.

After preparing my veggies, I place fresh leaves of cabbage or lettuce over

them, then hold this down with smooth rocks (that won't disintegrate or leach

substances into my veggies) such a quartz crystal. Then I put an airtight lid

on it.

If you are using kefir whey, make sure you don't fill your bottle more than 3/4

full because it might explode.

I also use a clear jar so I can see what is happening. When it is finished, I

remove the rock and throw away the cabbage leaves.

When I used other methods, it seemed I was always needed to clean the sides of

the jars. With the cabbage leaves I just let it go until it is done and the jar

stays clean.

Kat

http://www.katking.com

----- Original Message -----

From: Chris

Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 6:40 AM

Subject: Fermenting Veggies

When fermenting veggies in jars do you have to make sure none of the

veggies stick out of the liquid? If so what is the easiest way do keep any

from poking out.

Thanks,

Chris

[Guest guest]

At 07:23 AM 8/5/2002 -0700, you wrote:

>When I used other methods, it seemed I was always needed to clean the

>sides of the jars. With the cabbage leaves I just let it go until it is

>done and the jar stays clean.

>

>Kat

Cabbage leaves are what the Koreans use too, in a crock with a lid that

just sets on there.

I like the idea -- I've been using, lately, a tall glass " cookie jar " type

crock with cabbage

leaves (or plastic, in a pinch), with a weight on top (I don't have anything as

neat as a quartz crystal though: a bag of beans or metal balls will do

too). The lid

is loose, so gas can escape, but the cabbage leaves are airtight enough to keep

the mold from growing. Salting the top of the cabbage leaves, or soaking them

in salt water/vinegar, helps too. Mold is the issue here: Mold needs air to

grow. If you

do get some mold on top though, it doesn't hurt the vegies.

Target sells the glass jars in the " home decor " department. They look cool too.

Heidi

[Guest guest]

Hi Heidi,

re using metal balls or plastic to keep fermenting veggies submerged can cause

unwanted chemical reactions.

In our kefir groups it is advised not to even strain with metal strainers. The

fermenting process is very acidic and will break down metals, EVEN stainless

steel can become pitted.

There are many warnings that using plastic in any form with fermented foods

causes it to leech. Since I am reactive to this " gas, " fermented foods that I

tried to store in quality plastic tubs made me sick.

For me the crystal stones or even just glass balls, glass knick knacks, small

glass jar filled with water, etc. has been the safest.

If you have not had health issues this may not be crucial. For people like me

who are cleaning up our diet for health reasons, these little tips have proven

to be invaluable.

Take care!

Kat

http://www.katking.com

----- Original Message -----

From: Heidi Schuppenhauer

Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 8:32 AM

Subject: Re: Fermenting Veggies

At 07:23 AM 8/5/2002 -0700, you wrote:

>When I used other methods, it seemed I was always needed to clean the

>sides of the jars. With the cabbage leaves I just let it go until it is

>done and the jar stays clean.

>

>Kat

Cabbage leaves are what the Koreans use too, in a crock with a lid that

just sets on there.

I like the idea -- I've been using, lately, a tall glass " cookie jar " type

crock with cabbage

leaves (or plastic, in a pinch), with a weight on top (I don't have anything

as

neat as a quartz crystal though: a bag of beans or metal balls will do

too). The lid

is loose, so gas can escape, but the cabbage leaves are airtight enough to

keep

the mold from growing. Salting the top of the cabbage leaves, or soaking them

in salt water/vinegar, helps too. Mold is the issue here: Mold needs air to

grow. If you

do get some mold on top though, it doesn't hurt the vegies.

Target sells the glass jars in the " home decor " department. They look cool

too.

Heidi

[Guest guest]

I just tried the kimchi from NT so this is a timely thread. I made a batch

and it was submerged when I started but I didn't have this recent wisdom

from the group and didn't weight it so the veggies floated. I just tasted

it and it's nice and spicy and tastes okay. I'm assuming this is okay to

eat, but would welcome any thoughts. What is the reason to make sure the

veggies are submerged? I'll try the cabbage leaf and rock wait suggestion

for the future, but am wondering if this batch is somehow ruined despite

the okay taste.

When it's done and going into the fridge for storage, does it still need to

be submerged?

Also I'm confused about the airtight vs not, seems like I'm seeing both

suggestions here? I put it in a quart jar with a plastic lid which are

tight but they will actually leak fluid a little if turned upside down so

they are not airtight--why does it need to be airtight, someone mentioned

mold-is it to keep the mold out or is it something about the fermentation

process?

One other thing, can you just use whole kefir instead of just the whey?

Thanks in advance to any fermenting experts for your help,

-----Original Message-----

From: [mailto:chris@...]

Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 6:40 AM

Subject: Fermenting Veggies

When ferementing veggies in jars do you have to make sure none of the

veggies stick out of the liquid? If so what is the easiest way do keep any

from poking out.

Thanks,

Chris

[Guest guest]

Quoting Pellicer <@...>:

> One other thing, can you just use whole kefir instead of just the whey?

I've been told that this causes airtight containers to explode.

--

Berg

bberg@...

[Guest guest]

Quoting Pellicer <@...>:

>>One other thing, can you just use whole kefir instead of just the whey?

From: Berg bberg@...

>I've been told that this causes airtight containers to explode.

Well, this is just too good an experiment to pass up--I'll just test this

out next time, exploding glass jars, wow, of course I'll put it in an

isolated area for safety, and certainly won't intentionally injure any

spiders or other bugs, but if a few grasshoppers get caught in the

cross-fire I'm frying them up and dipping them in the kimchi (LOL)

--

[Guest guest]

At 10:14 AM 8/5/2002 -0700, you wrote:

>Hi Heidi,

>

>re using metal balls or plastic to keep fermenting veggies submerged can

>cause unwanted chemical reactions.

>

>In our kefir groups it is advised not to even strain with metal

>strainers. The fermenting process is very acidic and will break down

>metals, EVEN stainless steel can become pitted.

I agree. The balls are in a plastic bag, on top of a plate, on top of

cabbage leaves -- they don't touch the kimchi. When I can get a shallow

glass jar (a tall one will let flies into the mix) then I'll use that. I'm

cutting down on the plastic but don't have solutions for me in all cases

yet! Lexan seems ok though: it is amazingly stable, at least if not heated.

My kimchi is in glass though, because it is SOOO acid.

Heidi

[Guest guest]

Kat,

Where can you purchase quartz crystals? I like the idea of having a

special fermenting stone.

> After preparing my veggies, I place fresh leaves of cabbage or

> lettuce over them, then hold this down with smooth rocks (that won't

> disintegrate or leach substances into my veggies) such a quartz

> crystal. Then I put an airtight lid on it.

>

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[Guest guest]

At 11:26 AM 8/5/2002 -0700, you wrote:

>I just tried the kimchi from NT so this is a timely thread. I made a batch

>and it was submerged when I started but I didn't have this recent wisdom

>from the group and didn't weight it so the veggies floated. I just tasted

>it and it's nice and spicy and tastes okay. I'm assuming this is okay to

>eat, but would welcome any thoughts. What is the reason to make sure the

>veggies are submerged? I'll try the cabbage leaf and rock wait suggestion

>for the future, but am wondering if this batch is somehow ruined despite

>the okay taste.

Mine gets " unsubmerged " a lot if I don't use a weight. There is some danger

of mold.

Which is why I use some vinegar. Nothing has molded yet. If it molds I

think you

will know it. If it spoils it will be slimy or stinky.

>When it's done and going into the fridge for storage, does it still need to

>be submerged?

Once it is sour, it does not seem to mold. I've had the commercial stuff in

there

a year. Got kind of mushy. Kyoko recommended draining the liquid out to keep

it crispy, which I guess she does.

>Also I'm confused about the airtight vs not, seems like I'm seeing both

>suggestions here? I put it in a quart jar with a plastic lid which are

>tight but they will actually leak fluid a little if turned upside down so

>they are not airtight--why does it need to be airtight, someone mentioned

>mold-is it to keep the mold out or is it something about the fermentation

>process?

The Koreans don't actually use an air-tight jar, traditionally -- just a

crock with a lid set on the

top. The stuff under the cabbage leaves is air-tight enough for lactobacilli

to grow. I think it is mainly a mold issue. The traditional ways of making

saeurkraut don't use airtight containers either. Back in the old days no

one HAD airtight jars, really, it was hard to even make containers that held

liquid (try making a barrel out of wood, sometime, that doesn't leak,

with no aquarium sealant and see how you do!).

Sauerkraut made the old way got scum on the top, which the

recipes say to just skim off ... they didn't seem to worry about

it much. They used towels for the top layer which got pretty

gross, from the sounds of it.

You DO want it to be bug-tight though, unless you are also

going into the " insect eating " world :-)

>One other thing, can you just use whole kefir instead of just the whey?

Probably, but it would be cloudy.

>Thanks in advance to any fermenting experts for your help,

>

Heidi (not an expert yet).

[Guest guest]

Quoting Pellicer <@...>:

> One other thing, can you just use whole kefir instead of just the whey?

I've been told that this causes airtight containers to explode.

Berg

bberg@...

FOR QUITE SOME TIME NOW I HAVE BEEN FERMENTING EVERYTHING WITH KEFIR AND KEFIR

WHEY: FOR VEGGIES, VEGETABLE JUICE (Tastes like spice, sparkling V*), AND FRUIT

JUICES I USE THE WHEY. FOR MEATS I USE KEFIR. FOR GRAINS/FLOURS I USE EITHER

DEPENDING UPON THE RECIPE.

YOU ONLY NEED TO BE CONCERNED WITH EXPLOSIONS IF YOU FILL TOO FULL. KEEP TO 2/3

FULL AND IT WILL BE FINE.

Kat

http://www.katking.com

[Guest guest]

Kat,

Could you post your recipe for the fermented vegetable juice and fruit juice

using kefir whey. Why do you use whey for soem of these products and whole

kefir for others?

--

-----Original Message-----

From: Katanne1890 [mailto:katanne1890@...]

Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 3:15 PM

Subject: Re: Fermenting Veggies

Quoting Pellicer <@...>:

> One other thing, can you just use whole kefir instead of just the whey?

I've been told that this causes airtight containers to explode.

Berg

bberg@...

FOR QUITE SOME TIME NOW I HAVE BEEN FERMENTING EVERYTHING WITH KEFIR AND

KEFIR WHEY: FOR VEGGIES, VEGETABLE JUICE (Tastes like spice, sparkling V*),

AND FRUIT JUICES I USE THE WHEY. FOR MEATS I USE KEFIR. FOR GRAINS/FLOURS

I USE EITHER DEPENDING UPON THE RECIPE.

YOU ONLY NEED TO BE CONCERNED WITH EXPLOSIONS IF YOU FILL TOO FULL. KEEP

TO 2/3 FULL AND IT WILL BE FINE.

Kat

http://www.katking.com

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

1> Here in Los Angeles I just go to a store that sells spiritual things. They

have really nice crystal stones for very little.

2> I went into a fabric store that carries home accessories and noticed they had

large crystals.

3> At places like Pier One Imports they have pure glass balls that would work

nicely.

4> On line you can get some nice crystal - try eBay auctions and www.ebay.com I

get all sorts of things on eBay. Even Green Magma, which is about $24.00 in the

health food stores, I got it for $9.00 per bottle. I bought 3 bottles, so even

with shipping I saved a lot!

Remember, you are not looking for museum pieces, that can be very expensive.

You are looking for crystal quartz that gets the job done without chemically

altering your foods. These quartz crystals are very inexpensive.

I have found that when I use " special " things to make my foods, my foods feel

extra special!

Happy rock hunting!

Kat

http://www.katking.com

----- Original Message -----

From: L123 M123

Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 2:54 PM

Subject: Re: Fermenting Veggies

Kat,

Where can you purchase quartz crystals? I like the idea of having a

special fermenting stone.

> After preparing my veggies, I place fresh leaves of cabbage or

> lettuce over them, then hold this down with smooth rocks (that won't

> disintegrate or leach substances into my veggies) such a quartz

> crystal. Then I put an airtight lid on it.

>

[Guest guest]

Kat,

Could you post your fermented V8 recipe? I LOVE V8, but I don't think it's too

healthy...

----- Original Message -----

From: Katanne1890

Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 6:15 PM

Subject: Re: Fermenting Veggies

Quoting Pellicer <@...>:

> One other thing, can you just use whole kefir instead of just the whey?

I've been told that this causes airtight containers to explode.

Berg

bberg@...

FOR QUITE SOME TIME NOW I HAVE BEEN FERMENTING EVERYTHING WITH KEFIR AND KEFIR

WHEY: FOR VEGGIES, VEGETABLE JUICE (Tastes like spice, sparkling V*), AND FRUIT

JUICES I USE THE WHEY. FOR MEATS I USE KEFIR. FOR GRAINS/FLOURS I USE EITHER

DEPENDING UPON THE RECIPE.

YOU ONLY NEED TO BE CONCERNED WITH EXPLOSIONS IF YOU FILL TOO FULL. KEEP TO

2/3 FULL AND IT WILL BE FINE.

Kat

http://www.katking.com

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Whey vs. Kefir. Think about it, kefir lasts how long in the refrigerator? Whey

can last months in the refrigerator without spoiling. So if I am fermenting

something that will be in my refrigerator for months, I want it to be fermented

with whey.

Meat I either dehydrate (jerky) or lightly cook (very rare), so I use the full

kefir because these will be " cooked " and eaten quickly. Also, the kefir

tenderizes and adds a wonderful flavor to meats.

Grains or corn: I usually use kefir because I am going to bake. By the way,

corn bread made with kefir is WONDERFUL. Just soak your ground corn overnight,

then add whatever your recipe calls for. Almost like sourdough corn bread.

Veggie juice: Juice 1/2 gallon veggies (whatever mix you choose). Everything is

approximate, but you want to have a little more than 1/2 gallon juice to go into

a 1 gallon glass jar.

I like: about 7 pounds of carrots, 1 bunch of beets including the tops, 3

bunches of celery, and 1 apple. Add about 1 cup kefir whey. This is personal

choice but I love Celtic Sea Salt and the health benefits are many so I add

about 2 tsp. Sometimes I also add hot chili peppers. This usually makes enough

for 2 bottles.

Seal the bottles (air tight), and let this sit for 2 to 3 days (depending upon

thew temperature).

Then I collect glass bottles with screw tops that are air tight, and I put the

juice in these and refrigerate. Do NOT fill more than 2/3 full and no problem.

One time I thought I could get away with filling all the way to the top like

they do with coke in a bottle....the explosion was impressive! Thousands of

pieces of glass, not just a crack in the glass.

Drink whenever, right away or later. I had a bottle in my refrigerator that for

some reason I just never got around to drinking. It had been 6 MONTHS. When I

tried it, it was good but a bit tart so I added spring water and it was

delicious!

Fermented Fruit Juice: I do not drink alcohol so this recipe is tricky. Same

as above, juice enough fruit to fill a bottle to just over 1/2 gallon. Add about

1 cup kefir whey. Sometimes I also add a pinch of Celtic Sea Salt (seems to

keep down the alcohol and adds a unique under flavor I like).

Ferment 6 to 12 HOURS. Depending upon the temperature, the fruit ferments very

fast. Bottle in airtight bottles and refrigerate. I have had this juice in the

refrigerator for up to 8 days, and it did not turn. It is really delicious,

especially in the hot weather.

I have a hydrometer that measures potential alcohol content and have never yet

had this drink measure over 2% which is about what my Kombucha measures.

And finally, this one is tricky. I am still trying to figure out when and why

it works. I take fermented lemonade, OR pineapple, add kefir. If my kefir is

very sour it mixes and makes an unusual drink like a creamy lemon drink or a

pineapple pina colada. If not just right, it curdles.

Let me know how yours turns out!

Kat

http://www.katking.com

----- Original Message -----

From: Pellicer

Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 3:25 PM

Subject: RE: Fermenting Veggies

Kat,

Could you post your recipe for the fermented vegetable juice and fruit juice

using kefir whey. Why do you use whey for soem of these products and whole

kefir for others?

--

-----Original Message-----

From: Katanne1890 [mailto:katanne1890@...]

Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 3:15 PM

Subject: Re: Fermenting Veggies

Quoting Pellicer <@...>:

> One other thing, can you just use whole kefir instead of just the whey?

I've been told that this causes airtight containers to explode.

Berg

bberg@...

FOR QUITE SOME TIME NOW I HAVE BEEN FERMENTING EVERYTHING WITH KEFIR AND

KEFIR WHEY: FOR VEGGIES, VEGETABLE JUICE (Tastes like spice, sparkling V*),

AND FRUIT JUICES I USE THE WHEY. FOR MEATS I USE KEFIR. FOR GRAINS/FLOURS

I USE EITHER DEPENDING UPON THE RECIPE.

YOU ONLY NEED TO BE CONCERNED WITH EXPLOSIONS IF YOU FILL TOO FULL. KEEP

TO 2/3 FULL AND IT WILL BE FINE.

Kat

http://www.katking.com

[Guest guest]

Does it matter if the veggies stick out of the top once it's fermented and

is in the fridge?

Astrid

----- Original Message -----

From: Katanne1890 <katanne1890@...>

< >

Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 10:23 AM

Subject: Re: Fermenting Veggies

> You always want to be certain your veggies are submerged. People use many

different methods to accomplish this, I like to use all natural items.

>

> After preparing my veggies, I place fresh leaves of cabbage or lettuce

over them, then hold this down with smooth rocks (that won't disintegrate or

leach substances into my veggies) such a quartz crystal. Then I put an

airtight lid on it.

>

> If you are using kefir whey, make sure you don't fill your bottle more

than 3/4 full because it might explode.

>

> I also use a clear jar so I can see what is happening. When it is

finished, I remove the rock and throw away the cabbage leaves.

>

> When I used other methods, it seemed I was always needed to clean the

sides of the jars. With the cabbage leaves I just let it go until it is

done and the jar stays clean.

>

> Kat

> http://www.katking.com

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: Chris

>

> Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 6:40 AM

> Subject: Fermenting Veggies

>

>

> When fermenting veggies in jars do you have to make sure none of the

> veggies stick out of the liquid? If so what is the easiest way do keep

any

> from poking out.

>

> Thanks,

>

> Chris

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Astrid,

Once your veggies are fermented and refrigerated they should be fine if they are

not totally submerged.

Kat

http://www.katking.com

----- Original Message -----

From: Astrid Froese

Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 9:50 AM

Subject: Re: Fermenting Veggies

Does it matter if the veggies stick out of the top once it's fermented and

is in the fridge?

Astrid

----- Original Message -----

From: Katanne1890 <katanne1890@...>

< >

Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 10:23 AM

Subject: Re: Fermenting Veggies

> You always want to be certain your veggies are submerged. People use many

different methods to accomplish this, I like to use all natural items.

>

> After preparing my veggies, I place fresh leaves of cabbage or lettuce

over them, then hold this down with smooth rocks (that won't disintegrate or

leach substances into my veggies) such a quartz crystal. Then I put an

airtight lid on it.

>

> If you are using kefir whey, make sure you don't fill your bottle more

than 3/4 full because it might explode.

>

> I also use a clear jar so I can see what is happening. When it is

finished, I remove the rock and throw away the cabbage leaves.

>

> When I used other methods, it seemed I was always needed to clean the

sides of the jars. With the cabbage leaves I just let it go until it is

done and the jar stays clean.

>

> Kat

> http://www.katking.com

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: Chris

>

> Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 6:40 AM

> Subject: Fermenting Veggies

>

>

> When fermenting veggies in jars do you have to make sure none of the

> veggies stick out of the liquid? If so what is the easiest way do keep

any

> from poking out.

>

> Thanks,

>

> Chris

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> When ferementing veggies in jars do you have to make sure none of the

> veggies stick out of the liquid? If so what is the easiest way do keep any

> from poking out.

>

Yes, I hae decided that it is important to keep the veggies submerged under

the liquid. I have used a small diameter jar that fits inside the opening to

the jar I'm using, to compress the veggies. Starting out with everything in

a big plastic bag (like for kimchee) also works, as you can squeeze the air

out. But you will quickly become aware that the fermentation process

produces gas, probably CO2.

Kris

[Guest guest]

--- put vegies in the jar, fill to the top with liquid and put

the lid on leaving it loose so it won't explode, however some liquid

will spill onto the counter. Tighten the lid in a couple days when you

place in refrig cause in place of the previous liquid(at the top) you

will have a gaseous headspace. That's the way I fermented cabbage.

That's the way Coors fills a beer bottle and beer cans. It's an

unpasteurized fermented product.Dennis

In @y..., <chris@v...> wrote:

> When ferementing veggies in jars do you have to make sure none of

the

> veggies stick out of the liquid? If so what is the easiest way do

keep any

> from poking out.

>

> Thanks,

>

> Chris

[Guest guest]

> --- put vegies in the jar, fill to the top with liquid and put

> the lid on leaving it loose so it won't explode, however some liquid

> will spill onto the counter. Tighten the lid in a couple days when you

> place in refrig cause in place of the previous liquid(at the top) you

> will have a gaseous headspace. That's the way I fermented cabbage.

> That's the way Coors fills a beer bottle and beer cans. It's an

> unpasteurized fermented product.Dennis

>

Does that make Coors a good NT type of beverage?

Kris

[Guest guest]

--- In @y..., " Kris " <kris.johnson@a...>

wrote:

> Does that make Coors a good NT type of beverage?

Well, they soak and sprout their barley for the malt!

[Guest guest]

---There is life tonight. Answer: I don't know. Dennis

In @y..., " Kris " <kris.johnson@a...>

wrote:

> > --- put vegies in the jar, fill to the top with liquid and

put

> > the lid on leaving it loose so it won't explode, however some

liquid

> > will spill onto the counter. Tighten the lid in a couple days when

you

> > place in refrig cause in place of the previous liquid(at the top)

you

> > will have a gaseous headspace. That's the way I fermented cabbage.

> > That's the way Coors fills a beer bottle and beer cans. It's an

> > unpasteurized fermented product.Dennis

> >

> Does that make Coors a good NT type of beverage?

>

> Kris

[Guest guest]

--- Have you seen the sprouting operation? They have pressurized

rooms where the sprouting vats are located. And it's humidity

and temp. controlled. Dennis

In @y..., " darkstardog " <darkstar@p...> wrote:

>

>

> > Does that make Coors a good NT type of beverage?

>

> Well, they soak and sprout their barley for the malt!

[Guest guest]

--- Kris the answer is now coming to mind. Lactobacillus sp. is a

spoilage organism for the yeast fermented finished product therefore

lacto-fermentation is unacceptable. Lacto shortens the shelf life of

the beer(and probably changes the flavor). Therefore it's NT only if

you want the yeast by-products and alcohol. Or something like that. Is

kefir NT? Dennis

In @y..., " Kris " <kris.johnson@a...>

wrote:

> > --- put vegies in the jar, fill to the top with liquid and

put

> > thge.

> > That's the way Coors fills a beer bottle and beer cans. It's an

> > unpasteurized fermented product.Dennis

> >

> Does that make Coors a good NT type of beverage?

>

> Kris

[Guest guest]

>>>>Is kefir NT? Dennis

--------->is a healthy fermented milk product NT? YES! why wouldn't it be?

yeasts can be healthy too.

Suze Fisher

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

At 04:45 AM 8/8/2002 +0000, you wrote:

>--- Kris the answer is now coming to mind. Lactobacillus sp. is a

>spoilage organism for the yeast fermented finished product therefore

>lacto-fermentation is unacceptable. Lacto shortens the shelf life of

>the beer(and probably changes the flavor). Therefore it's NT only if

>you want the yeast by-products and alcohol. Or something like that. Is

>kefir NT? Dennis

True, and all my beer books say that ... but Lambic Ale -- truly delicious

by any standard -- I have heard is a lacto-fermented beer !!!!

I made some kefir-fermented beer (albeit from apple juice: I got some

ingredients to try it with hops for a more beery taste). And it was rather

Lambic-y. Very, very good. I even gave some to a hardened Coors drinker who

loved it! Kefir has yeast and lacto, but it is a different yeast than most

beer yeast and they play well together.

Heidi