Re: Anchorage Daily News Officials suspect botulism as villagersfall

[Guest guest]

Nest4Robin@... wrote:

> <<Traditionally, Alaska Natives fermented their food by placing it in

> pits. But in more recent years, they started putting the food in

> airtight plastic bags or containers that create an anaerobic, or

> oxygen-free, environment in which the botulism-making bacteria can

> grow.>>

Isn't that the kind of environment Sally recommends when lacto-fermenting

foods? I think air should be able to get in.

Roman

[Guest guest]

>

> > <<Traditionally, Alaska Natives fermented their food by placing

it in

> > pits. But in more recent years, they started putting the food in

> > airtight plastic bags or containers that create an anaerobic, or

> > oxygen-free, environment in which the botulism-making bacteria can

> > grow.>>

>

> Isn't that the kind of environment Sally recommends when lacto-

> fermenting foods? I think air should be able to get in.

If you lacto-ferment with cultured whey as a starter, there's

probably enough lactic acid in the whey to inhibit botulism right

from the start, and the fermentation's lactic acid production should

further inhibit it. I recently mashed up some cooked potato, stirred

in some kefir whey, and put it in a tightly sealed jar to ferment.

I've eaten all of it, and I'm not dead yet.

[Guest guest]

> >

> > > <<>>><><><>Clipped by Dennis><><><><><<><><

> If you lacto-ferment with cultured whey as a starter, there's

> probably enough lactic acid in the whey to inhibit botulism right

> from the start,

Clostridium botulinum by definition is an obligate anaerobe or

possibly microaerophilic bacteria so won't multiply and form deadly

enterotoxin until nearly all the oxygen is depleted. Dennis

and the fermentation's lactic acid production should

> further inhibit it. I recently mashed up some cooked potato, stirred

> in some kefir whey, and put it in a tightly sealed jar to ferment.

> I've eaten all of it, and I'm not dead yet.

You do want to be careful with this test. Dennis

[Guest guest]

When I made kimchee in a plastic bag the fermentation produced gases, so the

bag was never really airtight.

Peace,

Kris , gardening in northwest Ohio

If you want to hear the good news about butter check out this website:

http://www.westonaprice.org/know_your_fats/know_your_fats.html

----- Original Message -----

From: " Roman " <r_rom@...>

< >

Sent: Monday, July 22, 2002 7:37 PM

Subject: Re: Re: Anchorage Daily News Officials suspect

botulism as villagersfall

> Nest4Robin@... wrote:

>

> > <<Traditionally, Alaska Natives fermented their food by placing it in

> > pits. But in more recent years, they started putting the food in

> > airtight plastic bags or containers that create an anaerobic, or

> > oxygen-free, environment in which the botulism-making bacteria can

> > grow.>>

>

> Isn't that the kind of environment Sally recommends when lacto-fermenting

> foods? I think air should be able to get in.

>

> Roman

[Guest guest]

At 12:06 AM 7/23/2002 +0000, you wrote:

> > > pits. But in more recent years, they started putting the food in

> > > airtight plastic bags or containers that create an anaerobic, or

> > > oxygen-free, environment in which the botulism-making bacteria can

> > > grow.>>

> >

> > Isn't that the kind of environment Sally recommends when lacto-

> > fermenting foods? I think air should be able to get in.

Lacto-fermenting usually IS in an anaerobic environment. The Koreans

used clay pots, and they were pretty airtight. But botulism bacteria

is inhibited by a) salt or acid, and vegetable cultures usually have

enough bacteria in the vegies that the lactobacilli get going before the

botulism has a chance. Botulism is rare, I've read, in vegetable

ferments.

Botulism is not so rare in fish or meat ferments -- esp. when the fish is

left to ferment on it's own. The fish does not naturally contain

lactobacilli, or salt, or acid. If you buried it in the earth, it would get

lactobacilli

from the surrounding dirt (which is where the cabbage get it,

I guess). But plastic bags are notably lacking in lactobacilli ...

Sally's method of adding whey takes care of the lactobacilli

issue. I usually add some salt and vinegar too (wearing

suspenders AND a belt!).

IMO ... your milage may vary ...

Heidi

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

From: " Kris " <kris.johnson@...>

> When I made kimchee in a plastic bag the fermentation produced gases, so

the

> bag was never really airtight.

Airtight just means that no air can get in or out, not that it's necessarily

devoid of air. And it's still anaerobic if the gas that's produced isn't

oxygen, and I'm assuming that it's carbon dioxide.

[Guest guest]

johnny_tesla wrote:

> I recently mashed up some cooked potato, stirred

> in some kefir whey, and put it in a tightly sealed jar to ferment.

> I've eaten all of it, and I'm not dead yet.

With all due respect, these kinds of arguments are not serious because

statistically speaking, you or even the whole group are not

significant enough to make a generalized determination that this practice is

safe.

Roman

[Guest guest]

At 12:36 AM 7/23/2002 -0700, you wrote:

> > I recently mashed up some cooked potato, stirred

> > in some kefir whey, and put it in a tightly sealed jar to ferment.

> > I've eaten all of it, and I'm not dead yet.

>

>With all due respect, these kinds of arguments are not serious because

>statistically speaking, you or even the whole group are not

>significant enough to make a generalized determination that this practice is

>safe.

>

>Roman

Probably not -- but statistically speaking, very few people ever get

botulism. It's very rare --

it seems to be a pretty wimpy germ, given that it is ALWAYS around us and next

to impossible to kill (outside of a pressure cooker), hardly anyone ever

gets sick

from it. That's why they don't even have tests for it in most places. But

here are

some statistics:

1. Every man, woman and child has, probably, thousands of botulism bacteria

living in their gut, or at least the spores thereof. The gut is anearobic

too, but

the bacteria just can't replicate enough to cause problems (usually). This

is probably because they can't compete with all the other bacteria there,

plus the gut is mostly slightly acid.

2. Most cases of botulism happen in foods that are MOSTLY sterile.

Like badly-canned food: it's MOSTLY sterile, but the botulism spores

survive. Ditto with garlic: garlic kills a lot of bacteria, so the botulism

has a better chance of survival.

3. Botulism does not appear in acidic or salty foods. Winemaking

is essentially anaerobic (air can get out, but not in: the oxygen

in the jar is replaced by CO2 pretty rapidly). But it is a credo of

the winemakers that even though you can make some really

BAD TASTING wine, it isn't toxic -- the bad germs just don't

like acidic environments.

4. Botulism also appears a lot in home-fermented fish. I think this

is because there are no lactobacilli in fish (unless you add it),

and no acid or salt. The Koreans use fish in their kimchi,

added to cabbage (with salt and sometimes vinegar) and don't

seem to have problems.

5. I could not find ANY references to botulism and kimchi.

And the people I talked to about it have never gotten sick off it

(except for one person from this group, who was mildly ill

on the first time making it).

My take on it (and I'm very parnoid about food poisoning!) is:

1. Don't taste the food for 2-3 days. At that point, if the lacto

bacteria have NOT taken over, then the food will spoil

and smell very bad! There is a period before it spoils where

it can be toxic but not smell bad.

2. Add: Salt, vinegar, and/or whey/kimchi juice to each batch. If it

starts out a little on the acid side, it's likely the lactobacilli

will take over quickly.

3. If you are worried about it at all, use kefir-whey or kefir grains.

They are REALLY TOUGH bacteria and I think they wipe out

anything (just my opinion).

Heidi

[Guest guest]

>

> > I recently mashed up some cooked potato, stirred

> > in some kefir whey, and put it in a tightly sealed jar to ferment.

> > I've eaten all of it, and I'm not dead yet.

>

> With all due respect, these kinds of arguments are not serious

> because statistically speaking, you or even the whole native-

> nutrition group are not significant enough to make a generalized

> determination that this practice is safe.

You are, of course, absolutely correct. However, I'm quite sure the acidity

argument (botulism being inhibited by the whey) is also correct. Kefir culture

is remarkable in its ability to suppress other organisms.