canning/pickling jars (was what do you soak grains in?)

[Guest guest]

---->heidi, what do you use to ferment your kefir in and what type of lid do

you use?

>>>>>I'm not Heidi, but you can buy plastic lids that fit standard canning

jars.

That's what I use for making kefir and fermented veggies.

---->hi kris, currently i'm using pyrex bowls and the plastic lids that come

with them. i'm just curious as to what others use. but now that you mention

canning jars...i've been looking for something to make sauerkraut in...do

you use canning jars? i've been wondering how i can find pickling/canning

jars that are lead-free?

i would LIKE to use my pyrex dishes with cheesecloth on the top, but i

recall someone on this list mentioned they had better results with TALL

containers as opposed to bowls. can anyone give me some tips on what type of

jars/containers to make gingered carrots or kefirkraut in?

Suze Fisher

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

> you use canning jars? i've been wondering how i can find

pickling/canning

> jars that are lead-free?

Since when do glass jars have lead? Is there something about

that glass I don't know? Ball mason jars are what I use for

fermenting kefir, other beverages and veggies. If necessary, I

mix or pound first in a glass mixing bowl, then transfer to a

wide-mouth canning jar with a plastic lid (the food doesn't touch

the plastic). If I don't want it airtight, I don't screw the lid on, I just

set it loosely on top to keep out dust, bugs, etc., or you can put a

cloth over it held on with a rubber band. Most hardware stores

and mega-marts have a decent selection of mason jars. The

plastic lids can be a challenge to find, the 2-piece canning lids

can be used but I don't like to hassle with them. I've also used a

1-gallon glass jar with a rubber- or plastic-lined metal lid, like

what many foods are sold in (pickles, for instance - some places

you can buy the jars empty as storage containers).

For soaking flour, I use a glass caserole dish with a glass lid.

Aubin

[Guest guest]

> >>>>>I'm not Heidi, but you can buy plastic lids that fit standard canning

> jars.

> That's what I use for making kefir and fermented veggies.

>

> ---->hi kris, currently i'm using pyrex bowls and the plastic lids that

come

> with them. i'm just curious as to what others use. but now that you

mention

> canning jars...i've been looking for something to make sauerkraut in...do

> you use canning jars? i've been wondering how i can find pickling/canning

> jars that are lead-free?

>

Good grief, I hope we don't have something new to worry about - lead in

canning jars???

Kris

[Guest guest]

I think the only was to stop worrying abot what is in our food, whats

NOT in our food ( vitamins, lol )what disease enhancing items they

are carried in ( items with leeching lead ) ect.

Is we shoudl all become robinson crusoe!. Get our own island with our

own cows, vege patch Hunting spear for fish ect!

[Guest guest]

> >>>>>I'm not Heidi, but you can buy plastic lids that fit standard canning

> jars.

> That's what I use for making kefir and fermented veggies.

>

> ---->hi kris, currently i'm using pyrex bowls and the plastic lids that

come

> with them. i'm just curious as to what others use. but now that you

mention

> canning jars...i've been looking for something to make sauerkraut in...do

> you use canning jars? i've been wondering how i can find pickling/canning

> jars that are lead-free?

>

Good grief, I hope we don't have something new to worry about - lead in

canning jars???

--------------->i don't know if we do or not...i thought it was customary to

manufacture glass with lead in it, but i don't know if it's still commonly

done or not. some glassware advertises as " lead-free " (on the internet as

well) which implies that there is glassware out there that is not. even if

there is lead in glass canning/pickling jars, i have no idea if it would

leach due to the acidity of lacto-fermenting..?

Suze Fisher

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

I have never been very good with a spear.

At 04:20 AM 8/7/02, you wrote:

>I think the only was to stop worrying abot what is in our food, whats

>NOT in our food ( vitamins, lol )what disease enhancing items they

>are carried in ( items with leeching lead ) ect.

>Is we shoudl all become robinson crusoe!. Get our own island with our

>own cows, vege patch Hunting spear for fish ect!

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

There is no lead in canning jars. You do have to watch out for those heavy,

fancy , colored glass jars that are imported, some of them do have lead, but

they are usually sold for decoration.

Kat

http://www.katking.com

----- Original Message -----

From: Kris

Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 8:12 PM

Subject: Re: canning/pickling jars (was what do you soak

grains in?)

> >>>>>I'm not Heidi, but you can buy plastic lids that fit standard canning

> jars.

> That's what I use for making kefir and fermented veggies.

>

> ---->hi kris, currently i'm using pyrex bowls and the plastic lids that

come

> with them. i'm just curious as to what others use. but now that you

mention

> canning jars...i've been looking for something to make sauerkraut in...do

> you use canning jars? i've been wondering how i can find pickling/canning

> jars that are lead-free?

>

Good grief, I hope we don't have something new to worry about - lead in

canning jars???

Kris

[Guest guest]

At 07:21 AM 8/7/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>--------------->i don't know if we do or not...i thought it was customary to

>manufacture glass with lead in it, but i don't know if it's still commonly

>done or not. some glassware advertises as " lead-free " (on the internet as

>well) which implies that there is glassware out there that is not. even if

>there is lead in glass canning/pickling jars, i have no idea if it would

>leach due to the acidity of lacto-fermenting..?

>

>Suze Fisher

Lead in glass really *does not* leach out -- it's been studied and studied.

Which does not stop folks from worrying about it. But it is very much

bonded into the glass. Pyrex especially, which is used for experiments

because it doesn't interfere with the experiment. But the " high lead "

crystal stuff may be a problem (I had some 35% lead crystal once, but it is

pricey and not used in canning jars!). Mason jars are as inert as you can

hope for, I think. There may be some trace amounts of lead in the glass for

flexability, but not much.

Heidi

[Guest guest]

Suze-

>some glassware advertises as " lead-free " (on the internet as

>well) which implies that there is glassware out there that is not. even if

>there is lead in glass canning/pickling jars, i have no idea if it would

>leach due to the acidity of lacto-fermenting..?

Unfortunately I'm not sure whether ball jars and the like contain lead, but

I believe it's mostly older stemware which has lead. Then people realized

that acidic beverages (like wine) leached the lead from the glass, and so

lead-free glass became a priority. I kind of doubt modern glassware has

any, but I suppose it's possible, given how many harmful practices are

perpetuated despite sure knowledge that they're harmful.

-

[Guest guest]

>>>>>Lead in glass really *does not* leach out -- it's been studied and

studied.

Which does not stop folks from worrying about it. But it is very much

bonded into the glass. Pyrex especially, which is used for experiments

because it doesn't interfere with the experiment. But the " high lead "

crystal stuff may be a problem (I had some 35% lead crystal once, but it is

pricey and not used in canning jars!). Mason jars are as inert as you can

hope for, I think. There may be some trace amounts of lead in the glass for

flexability, but not much.

---------->okey dokes. thanks! so, do you think it's generally safe to buy

any canning or mason jars on the market? or, do you think it's best to stick

to U.S. manufactured glass jars? i want to buy some this weekend, but have

been unsure about this issue. i have a big fat cabbage in my fridge waiting

to be morphed into kefirkraut and it's not getting any younger...<g>

Suze Fisher

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

At 03:10 PM 8/7/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>---------->okey dokes. thanks! so, do you think it's generally safe to buy

>any canning or mason jars on the market? or, do you think it's best to stick

>to U.S. manufactured glass jars? i want to buy some this weekend, but have

>been unsure about this issue. i have a big fat cabbage in my fridge waiting

>to be morphed into kefirkraut and it's not getting any younger...<g>

>

>Suze Fisher

I think they are fine, personally, but it might be fun to call the manufacturer

or get a writup from them. I'd bet they DO test them (no fun getting

sued, y'know). Glassmakers are usually very, very aware of the trace

substances in glass and very careful, because one wrong move and

the glass gets brittle or turns color etc. (I was in pottery for a year, and

there was a glass-blowing class in the same room, so I got a lot

of glass-gossip!).

Heidi

[Guest guest]

I don't know if this helps or not, at all, but, I work at a living history

museum portraying the 1830s and I just got trained for the pottery exhibit.

Lead was always mixed with sand for the glaze for redware pots because

redware doesn't vitrify itself, so the glaze is needed to seal it, being

porous, and turns to a glass coating in the kiln. It was common household

knowledge at the time that you didn't put anything acidic in redware, e.g.,

you don't pickle things in redware, because of lead poisoning. Noone knew

the chemistry at the time, but anything acidic will break the chemical bond

between the lead and the silica that forms, and the lead will leach. But

people did know that people who pickled things in redware got seriously ill

from it.

We have many pots in our exhibits that were made in our museum pottery

station, and many of them are old, and so no one in the houses or on the farm

pickles in the redware just in case. But, everything that was made after the

1970s no longer contains lead in the glaze. It seems to me after this point

with lead awareness that most other manufacturers would, like our museum,

have stopped using lead in things made for consumption as food. Is that even

legal? Surely mason jars and similar items are considered for food use.

Chris

In a message dated 8/7/02 7:12:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

s.fisher22@... writes:

> --------------->i don't know if we do or not...i thought it was customary to

> manufacture glass with lead in it, but i don't know if it's still commonly

> done or not. some glassware advertises as " lead-free " (on the internet as

> well) which implies that there is glassware out there that is not. even if

> there is lead in glass canning/pickling jars, i have no idea if it would

> leach due to the acidity of lacto-fermenting..?

____

" What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a

heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and

animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of

them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense

compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to

bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature.

Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the

truth, and for those who do them wrong. "

--Saint Isaac the Syrian

[Guest guest]

At 11:18 PM 8/8/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>It seems to me after this point

>with lead awareness that most other manufacturers would, like our museum,

>have stopped using lead in things made for consumption as food. Is that even

>legal? Surely mason jars and similar items are considered for food use.

>

>Chris

Wow, that is interesting!

It originally came up because someone had heard that Pyrex has trace

amounts of lead in it for flexibility. I have not asked the Pyrex folks

about it: I should! But glass is a whole different thing than pottery, so

like the note says, I don't think it would be an issue one way or the other

in real glass. I have stayed away from using crockery for pickling: I'm

pretty sure they don't use lead too, but what else can leach? The crockery

around here seems to be a high-heat pottery though.

Heidi

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/9/02 2:01:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

heidis@... writes:

> Wow, that is interesting!

>

> It originally came up because someone had heard that Pyrex has trace

> amounts of lead in it for flexibility. I have not asked the Pyrex folks

> about it: I should! But glass is a whole different thing than pottery, so

> like the note says, I don't think it would be an issue one way or the

other

> in real glass. I have stayed away from using crockery for pickling: I'm

> pretty sure they don't use lead too, but what else can leach? The crockery

> around here seems to be a high-heat pottery though.

Well, according to all the other statements on the list the lead doesn't

leach in glass, but I don't understand why it would be different (not to say

it isn't...), because the sand and lead in the kiln form a glaze of leaded

glass.

Chris

____

" What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a

heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and

animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of

them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense

compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to

bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature.

Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the

truth, and for those who do them wrong. "

--Saint Isaac the Syrian

[Guest guest]

At 08:41 AM 8/10/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>Well, according to all the other statements on the list the lead doesn't

>leach in glass, but I don't understand why it would be different (not to say

>it isn't...), because the sand and lead in the kiln form a glaze of leaded

>glass.

>

>Chris

Well-fired glazes supposedly don't leach either. It has to do with how hot

they get. When they get hot enough (cone 12, in pottery lingo) the silicon

and lead fuse (molecularly, maybe, I forget) and don't come apart easily.

The problem with pottery is that it sometimes is not heated hot enough,

esp. the low-fired pretty pots with lots of colors. Low-fired glass breaks

really easily, so you aren't likely to be drinking from it.

But you are right on -- its the same process.

Heidi

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/10/02 2:35:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

heidis@... writes:

> Well-fired glazes supposedly don't leach either. It has to do with how hot

> they get. When they get hot enough (cone 12, in pottery lingo) the silicon

> and lead fuse (molecularly, maybe, I forget) and don't come apart easily.

> The problem with pottery is that it sometimes is not heated hot enough,

> esp. the low-fired pretty pots with lots of colors. Low-fired glass breaks

> really easily, so you aren't likely to be drinking from it.

>

> But you are right on -- its the same process.

Hi Heidi, ok, the pottery we do is redware, which is a low-fire clay,

relatively. I don't really know the pottery lingo, but it is generally fired

at 1800-1900 degrees. However, the lead and silicon _do_ fuse during this

process, which, as I understand it, is the reason it's safe to use for most

foods. However, this fuse is broken down by anything acidic. If people in

1830s New England as a rule never put anything acidic in lead-glazed redware

because people were getting lead poisoining from it, it seems this would be

true, as 1830s knowledge of chemistry was nill and paranoia about the lead

and silicon unfusing seems unlikely, especially without any understanding of

their chemical bonding.

Chris

____

" What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a

heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and

animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of

them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense

compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to

bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature.

Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the

truth, and for those who do them wrong. "

--Saint Isaac the Syrian

[Guest guest]

At 08:24 PM 8/10/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>Hi Heidi, ok, the pottery we do is redware, which is a low-fire clay,

>relatively. I don't really know the pottery lingo, but it is generally fired

>at 1800-1900 degrees. However, the lead and silicon _do_ fuse during this

>process, which, as I understand it, is the reason it's safe to use for most

>foods. However, this fuse is broken down by anything acidic.

When I was in pottery, we were told there were degrees of fusion, which

might account for it. Low-fired clay is really different from stoneware, at

any rate. Our teachers really made a point that we should not be making

dishes out of low-fire clay (it was shortly after some people had made the

news getting sick from drinking OJ from Mexican pottery).

Glass doesn't really react with acids -- it reacts with bases, which is why

your drinking glasses can get all scratched from the dishwasher. You use

bases to etch glass. But the minerals that are in clay and glazes are many

and varied, and who knows which they react with!

Which reminds me, I got to thinking about rocks and crystals as weights --

I think Kat's idea about using a quartz crystal is neat, but be careful

with rocks. A lot of rocks DO contain lead and other heavy metals, esp. the

shiny ones like Galena and Fool's Gold. Quartz I think is fine, but

sometimes when you buy " crystals " they have matrix attached. I'm not enough

of a geologist to say which is ok and which is not. Which is why I'm not

using any of our rocks for weights!

One lady I write to says she is using bags of beans. I like that idea -- if

the beans get wet, you'll know it, but they won't hurt anything. Bags of

water is a good idea too, but I'm afraid they will leak (which probably

won't hurt anything, but I don't like the idea of old plastic-y water all

over). Maybe bags of marbles ...

> If people in

>1830s New England as a rule never put anything acidic in lead-glazed redware

>because people were getting lead poisoining from it, it seems this would be

>true, as 1830s knowledge of chemistry was nill and paranoia about the lead

>and silicon unfusing seems unlikely, especially without any understanding of

>their chemical bonding.

Yep. Some pottery really does give lead poisoning, and it really does happen,

it's not just paranoia. The Koreans use pottery for their kimchi jars, though,

traditionally, so the high-fired stuff must be ok, and sauerkraut crocks are

high-fired and seem ok. The concept of " lead is in it, but it's OK " is a

hard one to grasp though, kind of like " there is a bunch of high explosive

in your car, but it won't blow up when you turn the key. Really, I promise! " .

Heidi

[Guest guest]

On Sat, 10 Aug 2002 20:07:27 -0700, you wrote:

>

>Yep. Some pottery really does give lead poisoning, and it really does happen,

>it's not just paranoia. The Koreans use pottery for their kimchi jars, though,

>traditionally, so the high-fired stuff must be ok, and sauerkraut crocks are

>high-fired and seem ok. The concept of " lead is in it, but it's OK " is a

>hard one to grasp though, kind of like " there is a bunch of high explosive

>in your car, but it won't blow up when you turn the key. Really, I promise! " .

>

In regards to your last statement. The high explosive in a car is called

'gasoline' I do get what you mean though. :-)

We whet antiquing yesterday and found three crocks with about three gallon

capacity. How do we know if they are safe for fermentation?

[Guest guest]

> When I was in pottery, we were told there were degrees of

> fusion, which might account for it. Low-fired clay is really

> different from stoneware, at any rate. Our teachers really

> made a point that we should not be making dishes out of

> low-fire clay (it was shortly after some people had made the

> news getting sick from drinking OJ from Mexican pottery).

Lead is a low temperature flux which is why it is used in earthenware

glazes. Lead isn't used with stoneware and porcelain glazes because

the much higher temperatures obviate the need for it. At the higher

firing temperatures of stoneware and porcelain, sodium and/or

potassium from feldspar are the most common glaze fluxes. Wood ash

alone becomes a glaze at high firing temperatures due to the

potassium in it.

> Glass doesn't really react with acids -- it reacts with bases,

> which is why your drinking glasses can get all scratched from

> the dishwasher. You use bases to etch glass.

You sure about that? I'm pretty sure that Hydrofluoric Acid is the

most commonly used chemical for etching glass.

[Guest guest]

> We whet antiquing yesterday and found three crocks with about

> three gallon capacity. How do we know if they are safe for

> fermentation?

You can test for lead with a test kit. With a quick Google search I

found one source for them: http://www.leadinspector.com/

[Guest guest]

> We whet antiquing yesterday and found three crocks with about

> three gallon capacity. How do we know if they are safe for

> fermentation?

>>>>You can test for lead with a test kit. With a quick Google search I

found one source for them: http://www.leadinspector.com/

---->wow, interesting. i got the following para from this link:

Food in cans with lead soldered seams can be dangerous, particularly cans

that contain acidic substances such as fruit juices, fruits and some

vegetables. Imported canned goods are more likely to have lead soldered

seams. You can test any can seam with LEAD INSPECTOR. T

---->i wonder if Thai kitchen solders their canned coconut milk with lead?

it's the only canned food i eat, and i'm still not sure how healthy it is,

if at all...

Suze Fisher

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

ny-

>You sure about that? I'm pretty sure that Hydrofluoric Acid is the

>most commonly used chemical for etching glass.

I believe bases can affect glass, but you're right -- unless things have

changed in the last few years, hydrofluoric acid is the most common means

of etching glass.

-

[Guest guest]

> ---->i wonder if Thai kitchen solders their canned coconut milk with lead?

> it's the only canned food i eat, and i'm still not sure how healthy it is,

> if at all...

>

I've been wondering about coconut milk also. I bought some Native Forest

brand organic coconut milk, which has a list of ingredients:

" Certified organic coconut milk (coconut, water, cornstarch, carrageenan,

xanthan gum, citric acid). All ingredients specified from non-GMO sources.

Product of Sri Lanka "

In addition the label this this:

" In the central highlands of Sri Lank, devoted farmers have achieved

international organic certification for their traditional coconut crop. We

press the meat of these ripe, fresh, organic coconuts, and blend their

oil-rich extract with filtered well water to create this uniquely flavorful

organic coconut milk. Coconut oils and water tend to separate. Therefore, we

blend our Organic Coconut Milk with only select natural ingredients to

achieve a smooth and creamy consistency. While some other brands of coconut

milk avoid listing similar " processing aids " on their labels, we are

committed to full disclosure and list every ingredient for your

consideration. "

The website is www.edwardandsons.com

What do you think?

Kris

[Guest guest]

Ok, Heidi, that makes sense. My tiny bit of knowledge is mostly history

rather than chemistry in this area, that is, my 4-day-old job in the OSV

pottery shop. People would use stoneware for pickling, or wood, but not

redware. Seems consistent with your info.

Chris

In a message dated 8/11/02 1:55:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

heidis@... writes:

> When I was in pottery, we were told there were degrees of fusion, which

> might account for it. Low-fired clay is really different from stoneware,

at

> any rate. Our teachers really made a point that we should not be making

> dishes out of low-fire clay (it was shortly after some people had made the

> news getting sick from drinking OJ from Mexican pottery).

>

> Glass doesn't really react with acids -- it reacts with bases, which is

why

> your drinking glasses can get all scratched from the dishwasher. You use

> bases to etch glass. But the minerals that are in clay and glazes are many

> and varied, and who knows which they react with!

>

> Which reminds me, I got to thinking about rocks and crystals as weights --

> I think Kat's idea about using a quartz crystal is neat, but be careful

> with rocks. A lot of rocks DO contain lead and other heavy metals, esp.

the

> shiny ones like Galena and Fool's Gold. Quartz I think is fine, but

> sometimes when you buy " crystals " they have matrix attached. I'm not

enough

> of a geologist to say which is ok and which is not. Which is why I'm not

> using any of our rocks for weights!

>

> One lady I write to says she is using bags of beans. I like that idea --

if

> the beans get wet, you'll know it, but they won't hurt anything. Bags of

> water is a good idea too, but I'm afraid they will leak (which probably

> won't hurt anything, but I don't like the idea of old plastic-y water all

> over). Maybe bags of marbles ...

____

" What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a

heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and

animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of

them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense

compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to

bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature.

Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the

truth, and for those who do them wrong. "

--Saint Isaac the Syrian

[Guest guest]

At 02:03 PM 8/11/2002 -0400, you wrote:

> >You sure about that? I'm pretty sure that Hydrofluoric Acid is the

> >most commonly used chemical for etching glass.

>

>I believe bases can affect glass, but you're right -- unless things have

>changed in the last few years, hydrofluoric acid is the most common means

>of etching glass.

Well, dadgummed it is. But for all the trivia buffs, here is all the

information you could ever want to know about glass solubility. Looks like

some acids and hot alkalis BOTH attack glass, but you need specific acids

for it to be a problem with acid (pickle juice won't do it!). Which

explains why glasses go bad if you put them in the dishwasher all the time.

And the etching cream ads say it doesn't work on Pyrex either -- some

glasses are more susceptible than others.

http://www.cmog.org/page.cfm?page=316

But, in spite of these indications that glass is indestructible by chemical

attack, under certain conditions it will corrode, even dissolve. In these

cases, it is important to choose the right type of glass, since some are

more corrosion resistant than others. Only a few chemicals aggressively

attack glass -- hydrofluoric acid, concentrated phosphoric acid (when hot,

or when it contains fluorides), hot concentrated alkali solutions and

superheated water. Hydrofluoric acid is the most powerful of this group; it

attacks any type of silicate glass. Other acids attack only slightly; the

degree of attack can be measured in laboratory tests but such corrosion is

rarely significant in service for acids other than hydrofluoric and phosphoric.

Acids and alkali solutions attack glass in different ways. Alkalis attack

the silica directly while acids attack the alkali in the glass.

When an alkali solution attacks a glass surface, the surface simply

dissolves. This process continuously exposes a fresh surface which in turn

is dissolved. As long as the supply of alkali is sufficient, this type of

corrosion proceeds at a uniform rate.