Re: Re: Responses to Taubes' NYT Article...

[Guest guest]

Robin-

>There is a difference between fats that are good for you

>and the ones that are bad for you. Therefore, how can there NOT be a

>difference between refined and complex carbs?

Because they're fundamentally different. All CHO breaks down into chains

of simple sugars. Fats, however, behave very differently depending on

whether they're saturated or unsaturated, and on their particular chemical

form.

Bear in mind I'm really only talking about the type of carb-based foods

which are usable as primary calorie sources, like grains and beans. A side

of spinach with a steak is a great and healthy thing, at least provided

it's prepared right.

>Perhaps, carbs have the

>same reaction in the body, but I personally would rather see someone eat

>a complex carb over a refined carb any day.

What exactly would you call a complex carb? A potato? A starchy whole

grain? Often starches have even more adverse effects on the body than

plain sugars.

>Can one take the rise in

>insulin from carbs to the extreme that others have taken to cholesterol

>in avoiding certain foods that are actually good for you?

Sure, in that nobody ever had any sort of plausible mechanism for _how_

cholesterol was supposed to harm you, whereas hyperinsulinemia is a problem

documented not by a surrogate marker (blood tests measuring insulin levels)

but by the body's actual response to sugars and starches. That doesn't

mean we know all there is to know about the problem -- far from it -- but

it is clear that sugary and starchy foods are very harmful.

>However, if I do eat some

>carbs I'd rather they be the complex carbs (prepared properly) and not

>the refined ones.

If you can afford to, why not avoid most grains and beans and get your

protein and the bulk of your calories from animal foods?

-

[Guest guest]

,

here's a link to WAPF msg board and to Dr. Marasco's reply (Aug.3)

to someone re carbs in milk.

http://members4.boardhost.com/realfood/msg/2802.html

Dedy

----- Original Message -----

From: " Idol " <Idol@...>

< >

Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 3:14 AM

Subject: Re: Re: Responses to Taubes' NYT Article...

> Robin-

>

> >There is a difference between fats that are good for you

> >and the ones that are bad for you. Therefore, how can there NOT be a

> >difference between refined and complex carbs?

>

> Because they're fundamentally different. All CHO breaks down into chains

> of simple sugars. Fats, however, behave very differently depending on

> whether they're saturated or unsaturated, and on their particular chemical

> form.

>

> Bear in mind I'm really only talking about the type of carb-based foods

> which are usable as primary calorie sources, like grains and beans. A

side

> of spinach with a steak is a great and healthy thing, at least provided

> it's prepared right.

>

> >Perhaps, carbs have the

> >same reaction in the body, but I personally would rather see someone eat

> >a complex carb over a refined carb any day.

>

> What exactly would you call a complex carb? A potato? A starchy whole

> grain? Often starches have even more adverse effects on the body than

> plain sugars.

>

> >Can one take the rise in

> >insulin from carbs to the extreme that others have taken to cholesterol

> >in avoiding certain foods that are actually good for you?

>

> Sure, in that nobody ever had any sort of plausible mechanism for _how_

> cholesterol was supposed to harm you, whereas hyperinsulinemia is a

problem

> documented not by a surrogate marker (blood tests measuring insulin

levels)

> but by the body's actual response to sugars and starches. That doesn't

> mean we know all there is to know about the problem -- far from it -- but

> it is clear that sugary and starchy foods are very harmful.

>

> >However, if I do eat some

> >carbs I'd rather they be the complex carbs (prepared properly) and not

> >the refined ones.

>

> If you can afford to, why not avoid most grains and beans and get your

> protein and the bulk of your calories from animal foods?

>

>

>

>

> -

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

-

>I don't think you're missing a thing, Robin. Weston Price found

>healthy primitives that had *very* high carb intakes. His swiss

>villagers ate mostly fresh milk (high carb) and rye bread (very high

>carb *and* fairly high glycemic index). Several of the healthy

>primitive groups had quite high carb intakes.

Yes, many of those cultures ate a fair amount of carbs, though to call

their diet high-carb simply doesn't hold water in comparison to true modern

high-carb diets, but consider: fresh milk may be fairly carby, but it also

has plenty of fat and protein, and when they ate rye bread, they didn't eat

a low-fat or non-fat sandwich, they slathered it with tons of butter or

other sources of fat and protein. So while you can look at the lactose in

their dairy or the rye bread in their meals and say that, isolated, some of

their foods had high glycemic indices, that's just a tiny part of the

picture, because their high consumption of fat had a dramatic impact on

their overall glycemic load. (And while glycemic load and the glycemic

index are useful and interesting tools for dietary analysis, they're still

quite primitive and in need of dramatic refinement.)

>I'm not much of a fan of grains from a nutritional standpoint but not

>because of the carb content. It's the unbalanced mineral profile and

>the unbalanced EFA composition that concerns me

I agree that it's not just the carb content that's a problem, but the

starches themselves cause major problems in a high-carb diet.

>A

>diet high in dairy or high in fish and vegetables can easily balance

>the deficient characteristics of grains...at which point, there's no

>problem with properly prepared whole grains.

Fish and vegetables won't, I think, provide nearly enough saturated fat.

Also, I suspect that modern unhealthy people mostly couldn't jump directly

to a primitive diet and be nearly as healthy as the primitives who'd been

eating a grain-including diet for generations.

-

[Guest guest]

Dedy-

>here's a link to WAPF msg board and to Dr. Marasco's reply (Aug.3)

>to someone re carbs in milk.

Remember, though, that the carbs in milk are coming with abundant protein

and fat. Take away some of the fat, and milk becomes a big problem. And

even so, some people don't do so well on milk but do very well on cream,

depending on their ancestry and on how good their health is.

Either way, dairy simply isn't the same as flour or even beans.

-

[Guest guest]

Alec-

>There is a big difference in the rye bread consumed by the Swiss

>villagers and the grocery store variety " rye " bread. I have seen

> " rye " bread that contains rye and wheat flour, corn syrup and sugar.

Yeah, a very good point. I was thinking about real rye bread, but you're

right, the rye bread the vast majority of people can get hold of doesn't

even come close to being real. Even so, though, I think it's very

important that they didn't just have rye bread, they had it with lots of

butter and other sources of fat and protein. The best sourdough bread in

the world isn't going to do you any good at all if you eat it plain, or

with jelly or something like that.

-

[Guest guest]

Demonizing carbs is as dangerous a game as demonizing fats. Even if

there weren't a number of deficiencies that avoiding carbs completely

is likely to create (and there definitely are such deficiencies), it

would still be dangerous to the extent that it takes the emphasis off

of what's *missing* from the diet and puts it on what *is* in the

diet

--------------------------------------------------------------------

You have to remember that there is a big crowd out there who cannot eat carbs at

all. We are many that have to limit our carbs to 20g a day, or we will feel

terrible and our weight goes skyhigh. We cannot eat grains at all and have to

take our carbs from vegetables only. I suppose you people here on this list

don't have that kind of problems, but Taube's article is about carb

sensitive people and we cannot use carbs even if we wanted to.

Berit

[Guest guest]

Berit-

>I suppose you people here on this list don't have that kind of problems,

>but Taube's article is about carb sensitive people and we cannot use

>carbs even if we wanted to.

Don't assume that! I have to avoid all grains and refined sugars period,

and I can only eat non-starchy vegetables, no tubers or legumes. I also

have to limit fruit pretty dramatically -- I mostly ferment my fruit to

reduce the sugar content, and I'll generally have a few berries or a piece

of fruit every week, but that's it. Most people on this list probably

aren't in such bad shape, but most of us came here because our health was

being harmed by whatever we were eating before.

-

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/4/02 1:11:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, scott@...

writes:

> I don't think you're missing a thing, Robin. Weston Price found

> healthy primitives that had *very* high carb intakes. His swiss

> villagers ate mostly fresh milk (high carb) and rye bread (very high

> carb *and* fairly high glycemic index). Several of the healthy

> primitive groups had quite high carb intakes.

The high-carb people in the U.S. recommend 80% carbs, which is almost three

times as much as the 30% average found in primitives. A 40% fat, 30% carb,

20% protein diet isn't high in _anything_-- it's a moderate balance of all

macronutrients.

chris

____

" What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a

heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and

animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of

them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense

compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to

bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature.

Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the

truth, and for those who do them wrong. "

--Saint Isaac the Syrian

[Guest guest]

,

If you don't mind sharing, what were/are your health problems and have

you seen improvement?

Thanks,

> Don't assume that! I have to avoid all grains and refined sugars

> period,

> and I can only eat non-starchy vegetables, no tubers or legumes. I

> also

> have to limit fruit pretty dramatically -- I mostly ferment my fruit

> to

> reduce the sugar content, and I'll generally have a few berries or a

> piece

> of fruit every week, but that's it. Most people on this list

> probably

> aren't in such bad shape, but most of us came here because our

> health was

> being harmed by whatever we were eating before.

>

>

>

>

> -

>

>

>