Re: Carbs and Physical Activity

[Guest guest]

On Sat, 10 Aug 2002 05:47:07 -0000, you wrote:

>Should you eat more carbs if you are involved in strenuous physical

>activity? For example running 5 to 8 miles 3 or 4 times a week.

>

I can speak from a cyclists point of view. We are bombarded with the idea of

eating regularly while riding, carbs that is, stay away from proteins and fat

while riding. There is a whole industry of fractionalized food, designed with

the athletes needs in mind, except of course , his nutritional needs. It is a

more extreme form of SAD that is being suggested.. That advice didn't work for

me, and I am ignoring it now. Just last Monday I did a one hour ride up the

steepest local hill, 2 miles at 6% without anymore than a glass of water, total

ride, 14 miles . I just woke up, had a glass of water and set a personal best

record, after not having ridden for a month because of a pulled muscle. Before I

would have eaten a 'power bar' of some sort during the ride, and at least a

glass of fruit juice on waking up.

Next saturday I will be riding a 65 mile charity ride. That will take long

enough to use the normal amount of carbs stored in the blood, according to

popular belief. I will be avoiding the fractionalized, processed foods and will

eat only whole foods, that are offered at the rest stops.. It is the first long,

hard ride since I have gotten most of my diet onto NT principals, I will be very

interested in the results. Others who have switched to the general idea of low

carb diet with endurance athletics have told me that they no longer have the

problem of 'bonking', that is, running completely out of energy, brought about

by using all the carbs in the blood stream and unable to utilize the body's

stored fat fast enough. We'll see how I do

Mike

[Guest guest]

At 05:47 AM 8/10/2002 +0000, you wrote:

>Should you eat more carbs if you are involved in strenuous physical

>activity? For example running 5 to 8 miles 3 or 4 times a week.

According to Schwartzbein, yes. Your average esquimo might disagree. Might

depend on your metabolism and what works best for you. According to some

articles I've read, women seem to do better on fats, men on complex carbs,

for energy.

After the first 20 minutes of hard excercise, your body goes into " fat

burning " mode and starts using stored fat for energy (or it should, that's

why you store fat in the first place: to burn it!). Or so says Covert

. I don't do an hour of hard exercise as much as I should, but when I

do, I find that after 20 minutes I stop getting hungry (if I was exercising

on an empty stomach) and get more energy. says in that instance you

are training your body to use stored fat better, rather than relying on the

carb system.

Heidi

[Guest guest]

Here's an interesting article 'The Correct Diet for Athletic Performance'

by Barry Groves PhD who's on the WAPF board.

http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/athletic_diet.html

Dedy

----- Original Message -----

From: <meuritt@...>

< >

Sent: Saturday, August 10, 2002 3:16 PM

Subject: Re: Carbs and Physical Activity

> On Sat, 10 Aug 2002 05:47:07 -0000, you wrote:

>

> >Should you eat more carbs if you are involved in strenuous physical

> >activity? For example running 5 to 8 miles 3 or 4 times a week.

> >

> I can speak from a cyclists point of view. We are bombarded with the idea

of

> eating regularly while riding, carbs that is, stay away from proteins and

fat

> while riding. There is a whole industry of fractionalized food, designed

with

> the athletes needs in mind, except of course , his nutritional needs. It

is a

> more extreme form of SAD that is being suggested.. That advice didn't work

for

> me, and I am ignoring it now. Just last Monday I did a one hour ride up

the

> steepest local hill, 2 miles at 6% without anymore than a glass of water,

total

> ride, 14 miles . I just woke up, had a glass of water and set a personal

best

> record, after not having ridden for a month because of a pulled muscle.

Before I

> would have eaten a 'power bar' of some sort during the ride, and at least

a

> glass of fruit juice on waking up.

>

> Next saturday I will be riding a 65 mile charity ride. That will take long

> enough to use the normal amount of carbs stored in the blood, according to

> popular belief. I will be avoiding the fractionalized, processed foods and

will

> eat only whole foods, that are offered at the rest stops.. It is the first

long,

> hard ride since I have gotten most of my diet onto NT principals, I will

be very

> interested in the results. Others who have switched to the general idea of

low

> carb diet with endurance athletics have told me that they no longer have

the

> problem of 'bonking', that is, running completely out of energy, brought

about

> by using all the carbs in the blood stream and unable to utilize the

body's

> stored fat fast enough. We'll see how I do

>

> Mike

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Alec-

>Should you eat more carbs if you are involved in strenuous physical

>activity? For example running 5 to 8 miles 3 or 4 times a week.

No, not really! Check out http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/athletic_diet.html

An excerpt:

>>Athletes are told to eat a diet high in carbohydrates and low in fats.

>>This, they are told, will increase their performance. However, this was

>>not confirmed in a dietary study published in 1994.(5)

>>

>>Using three diets: normal, high-fat and high-carbohydrate, the study

>>showed that the high-carbohydrate diet increased performance by an

>>average ten percent over a normal mixed diet. Not bad, you might think,

>>but the high-fat diet increased performance by a massive thirty-three

>>percent. That's much better. The authors conclude that restriction of

>>dietary fat may be detrimental to endurance performance.

-

[Guest guest]

Heidi-

Remember that this advice comes from the high-carb low-fat

establishment. I wouldn't touch Covert 's exercise recommendations

with a ten-foot pole, either.

>After the first 20 minutes of hard excercise, your body goes into " fat

>burning " mode and starts using stored fat for energy (or it should, that's

>why you store fat in the first place: to burn it!). Or so says Covert

>. I don't do an hour of hard exercise as much as I should, but when I

>do, I find that after 20 minutes I stop getting hungry (if I was exercising

>on an empty stomach) and get more energy. says in that instance you

>are training your body to use stored fat better, rather than relying on the

>carb system.

-

[Guest guest]

> Heidi-

>

> Remember that this advice comes from the high-carb low-fat

> establishment. I wouldn't touch Covert 's exercise

recommendations

> with a ten-foot pole, either.

Runners World Mag had an article about 10 years ago that claimed if

you had a high fat lunch and ran within 6 hours of that high fat

lunch you significantly increased you risk of exercise induced heart

attack!

The lunch example was Fettuccini Alfredo.

[Guest guest]

I just bought Dr. Atkins " New and revised diet book " from 1999. I cannot

believe I waited so long to look at his work. I know it was because of so many

people claiming his diet was " dangerous. "

What I have read so far, I am only on page 102, he pulls together all the

information I have been studying for a few years, and puts it into very

understandable text.

I also love what he says about we are either using ketones as " effective fuel " ,

or glucose carbs as less effective fuel. One or the other, that's it (except

for alcohol)! So, if I am burning carbs for fuel I am storing fat, and if I am

using ketones for fuel I am burning fat, regardless of the calories consumed.

I know it is about finding a fine balance between the two, but after years of

trying to improve my health by being vegetarian, then vegan, then macrobiotic,

then sicker and sicker, I began to eat meats and eggs again a few years ago.

Then I began fermenting a lot of my foods, but still ate grains.

I have had a hard time finding a balance, and his recommendation that you begin

by going on a ZERO carb diet to kick in the process makes sense. He claims you

go from one imbalance (Hi Carb) to the opposite imbalance (No Carb) to regain

balance! Then eat in the middle. Makes sense to me!

Also, when I look at his track record of success (millions over a 30 years

period), I am more motivated to try his 14 day " trial " .

Anyone else have experience with his diet?

Kat

http://www.katking.com

----- Original Message -----

From: Idol

Sent: Saturday, August 10, 2002 12:08 PM

Subject: Re: Carbs and Physical Activity

Heidi-

Remember that this advice comes from the high-carb low-fat

establishment. I wouldn't touch Covert 's exercise recommendations

with a ten-foot pole, either.

>After the first 20 minutes of hard excercise, your body goes into " fat

>burning " mode and starts using stored fat for energy (or it should, that's

>why you store fat in the first place: to burn it!). Or so says Covert

>. I don't do an hour of hard exercise as much as I should, but when I

>do, I find that after 20 minutes I stop getting hungry (if I was exercising

>on an empty stomach) and get more energy. says in that instance you

>are training your body to use stored fat better, rather than relying on the

>carb system.

-

[Guest guest]

Alec-

>Runners World Mag had an article about 10 years ago that claimed if

>you had a high fat lunch and ran within 6 hours of that high fat

>lunch you significantly increased you risk of exercise induced heart

>attack!

>

>The lunch example was Fettuccini Alfredo.

Well, fettuccini alfredo is *delicious*, but it's hardly an example of

healthy low-carb eating or low-carb training. And it doesn't serve as a

meaningful test for that reason too.

-

[Guest guest]

Kat-

>Anyone else have experience with his diet?

Yes, and I highly recommend it, with certain caveats. I lost a lot of

weight and reached a very healthy weight with it until my financial

fortunes abruptly changed for the worse and I couldn't afford to eat much

meat at all. (Then all my health problems came back in spades, I gained

weight again, etc. Years later, I'm now low-carbing again, and reaping the

benefits.) He does seem to be OK with soy and sucralose and various highly

processed foods, so basically I think the best thing to do is to eat

according to the intersection of Atkins and NT/NAPD. Eat plenty of

organic, pastured meats, including organ meats. Eat cultured dairy, but if

you're trying to lose weight, tilt towards butter and cream and away from

milk, and if you make your own yoghurt or kefir, make them with half cream

and don't eat that much of them until you start to raise your carb intake.

Many cultures did thrive with some grains in their diet, but they hadn't

ruined their health the way we have, and frankly I think there are very,

very few people today who can achieve optimal health while eating much in

the way of grains, even if they prepare them properly in accordance with NT

and NAPD. That said, some people certainly tolerate them a lot better than

others, and other people do have digestive and health problems that make it

difficult for them to deal with animal products without addressing their

underlying conditions, but I definitely think that virtually everyone

should be eating low-carb relative to modern dietary recommendations.

That doesn't mean everyone has to drastically limit their carb intake. I

do, others do, but other people can actually do OK eating some starchy

foods, and others can eat tons of vegetables and some fruit. But the food

pyramid isn't healthy for anyone, and most people are probably in a

position to benefit from boosting their meat and (good) fat intake and

cutting their PUFA vegetable oil and carb intake. Atkins doesn't place too

much emphasis on the quality and sourcing of the foods he recommends,

though, and while I understand that (there's a limit to how many

requirements you can dump on someone in one book or even in a widespread

movement) it's nonetheless important to not only eat organic meat, but to

get that meat from cows which have been pastured, not grain-fed. There's a

huge difference between organic confinement beef and organic pastured beef,

there's a huge difference between pasteurized organic dairy and raw

grass-fed dairy, and there's a huge difference between organic " free range "

eggs and organic pastured eggs, not just in their underlying ability to

promote long-term health, but in their power to make you feel better NOW.

-

[Guest guest]

At 03:08 PM 8/10/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>Heidi-

>

>Remember that this advice comes from the high-carb low-fat

>establishment. I wouldn't touch Covert 's exercise recommendations

>with a ten-foot pole, either.

Well, there is that. But I like his descriptions of how the metabolism

changes in response to exercise. Most of the exercise gurus are low-fat,

high-carb, but the advice still works, for me, anyway. A lot of the

research involved doesn't involve diet at all, just how people respond to

exercise. I mean, the Krebs cycle is still the Krebs cycle? The research

Cliff Sheats and Parillo did on MCT is very correct, and popularized it,

even though I prefer my MCT as part of Coconut Oil.

What about his exercise recommendations would you disagree with? Granted

I'm not in the marathon runners category, just someone trying not to become

too much of a terminal potato.

Heidi

[Guest guest]

At 01:14 PM 8/10/2002 -0700, you wrote:

>Also, when I look at his track record of success (millions over a 30 years

>period), I am more motivated to try his 14 day " trial " .

>

>Anyone else have experience with his diet?

>

>Kat

I've only had experience with people ON his diet, and my experience is that

1) they lose weight, but 2) they tend to stay REALLY low carb forever, or

3) they go on it and go off it in a big way (binging).

His actual " recommended " diet and Schwartzbeins " recommended " diet, aren't

that different, though Schwartzbein doesn't think ketosis is a good idea

long term. You have to go really, really low carb to go into ketosis and

stay there. And to do that you pretty much have to give up fruit and a lot

of vegies.Also, Schwartzbein is pretty much against most processed food,

which I agree with.

Most of the Atkins folks I know live off " Atkins bars " and a lot of special

processed foods. And they have a kind of " carb paranoia " that I can't agree

with. I can't agree that low-carb brownies made with soy oil,

methylcellulose and Splenda (or whatever goes into them) is better for you

than a bowl of strawberries or a potato with butter. One lady I know brings

special " low carb tortillas " to work for tacos. I pointed out that her " low

carb " tortillas have 12g of carb each, while the regular ones have 11g. She

pointed out that the regular ones have 2g of sugar, which must be what

makes them bad. Anyway, there is a religious fervor to it that I dislike,

not the diet itself.

For myself, I know there is no way I'll GIVE UP carbs, but I have cut down

on them for all the reasons you mention. Also because I feel better. But

again, if you follow what the book *says* you don't have to be ridiculously

low carb: I don't know why people go *that* low carb, but maybe it does

make them feel better. Maybe ketosis is addictive too: the brain likes it?

Anyway, I find that both Atkins and Schwarzbein gloss over all the issues

besides carbs, and this is unfortunate. A lot of people do better on these

diets for reasons that are not related to carbs, but are not able to

pinpoint what works. They eat bread that's not " on " the diet, feel lousy,

and assume it is the carb in the bread. But that person might do just fine

on sweet potatoes! " wheat and corn " are synonymous with " carb " in our

culture, and they are the most allergenic foods around. And some people

might do well with carbs as long as they are eaten with fat and protein,

but not when they are consumed as rice cakes.

But I like 's advice: if you know how to make GOOD food, then just

adjust the carb level to what suits you. And hey, cultured vegies work

really good for low carb diets! (cultured milk too!).

Heidi

[Guest guest]

Heidi-

>Most of the Atkins folks I know live off " Atkins bars " and a lot of special

>processed foods.

This, unfortunately, is a new phenomenon. Back when I tried Atkins, he

didn't have any food products out at all, and his recommendations were

healthier for the lack of greed, I mean, distortion by economic incentive. <g>

>Maybe ketosis is addictive too: the brain likes it?

No, no evidence or experience supports any such notion. Furthermore,

you're only supposed to be in ketosis for a limited period of time on the

Atkins diet. You first drastically reduce your carb intake and then

gradually boost it over time until you reach a sustainable level.

His recommendations definitely are far from ideal, and they've gotten worse

recently because he decided he could make a fortune selling fake foods, but

there's still plenty of value to be taken from him if you have a

discerning, educated eye.

>I can't agree that low-carb brownies made with soy oil,

>methylcellulose and Splenda (or whatever goes into them) is better for you

>than a bowl of strawberries or a potato with butter.

I'd argue that's not a fair comparison, though. Or perhaps it's a fair

complaint about Atkins today, since he has all this crap to sell (and boy

oh boy do I mean crap!) but it's not at all a fair complaint about

low-carbing. Hell, I'm low-carbing and I typically have some berries every

week -- smothered in whipped cream, of course. <g>

>They eat bread that's not " on " the diet, feel lousy,

>and assume it is the carb in the bread. But that person might do just fine

>on sweet potatoes!

Depends what you mean by " just fine " . A sweet potato will generally cause

somewhat fewer complications for a carb-sensitive person than the

equivalent amount of bread, but it'll still have a profound effect on

weight. I find there are few things more fattening than potatoes (which

hurts, because I love them so much -- but then there's the addictive nature

of starchy and sugary carb foods for you!) and interestingly enough, if you

look at literature and recommendations from yore, back when people knew

animal fats were good for you, it turns out that people knew that potatoes

were some of the most fattening things you could possibly eat. (Personally

I consider all modern potatoes to be effectively refined carbs. They are

so much richer in starch than anything you'd find in nature that the

selective breeding process has yielded something similar to the refining

process. For that matter, I think the same thing is true of

grains. Grains as we know them are extremely recent inventions; there

simply were no foods nearly as starchy for evolving humans to consume.)

And for that matter, when in the past I've indulged in some potatoes, I

felt like crap afterwards and the next day. Maybe a little less than if

I'd had bread or sugar, maybe not. People's degrees of tolerance vary, but

I don't think that these are fundamentally healthy foods. At best they can

play a small role in a genuinely balanced diet.

-

[Guest guest]

Thank you for all those extra tips.

I know I have hit a point of complete intolerance to grains/carbs. Trying to

find a balance I have soaked, sprouted, dehydrated then ground the grains into

flour. Then I would ferment the flour to reduce the carbs. Still have

problems, so I feel that what he says about swinging too far toward the protein

ketosis side for a few weeks makes sense.

Also, for anyone who is on this high protein diet and wants to test for ketosis

with the lipolysis LTS strips, I found them very inexpensive for 100 at $11.99

shipping included at http://www.lowcarbnexus.com/ .

Take care!

Kat

http://www.katking.com

----- Original Message -----

From: Idol

Sent: Saturday, August 10, 2002 3:10 PM

Subject: Re: Carbs and Physical Activity

Kat-

>Anyone else have experience with his diet?

Yes, and I highly recommend it, with certain caveats. I lost a lot of

weight and reached a very healthy weight with it until my financial

fortunes abruptly changed for the worse and I couldn't afford to eat much

meat at all. (Then all my health problems came back in spades, I gained

weight again, etc. Years later, I'm now low-carbing again, and reaping the

benefits.) He does seem to be OK with soy and sucralose and various highly

processed foods, so basically I think the best thing to do is to eat

according to the intersection of Atkins and NT/NAPD. Eat plenty of

organic, pastured meats, including organ meats. Eat cultured dairy, but if

you're trying to lose weight, tilt towards butter and cream and away from

milk, and if you make your own yoghurt or kefir, make them with half cream

and don't eat that much of them until you start to raise your carb intake.

Many cultures did thrive with some grains in their diet, but they hadn't

ruined their health the way we have, and frankly I think there are very,

very few people today who can achieve optimal health while eating much in

the way of grains, even if they prepare them properly in accordance with NT

and NAPD. That said, some people certainly tolerate them a lot better than

others, and other people do have digestive and health problems that make it

difficult for them to deal with animal products without addressing their

underlying conditions, but I definitely think that virtually everyone

should be eating low-carb relative to modern dietary recommendations.

That doesn't mean everyone has to drastically limit their carb intake. I

do, others do, but other people can actually do OK eating some starchy

foods, and others can eat tons of vegetables and some fruit. But the food

pyramid isn't healthy for anyone, and most people are probably in a

position to benefit from boosting their meat and (good) fat intake and

cutting their PUFA vegetable oil and carb intake. Atkins doesn't place too

much emphasis on the quality and sourcing of the foods he recommends,

though, and while I understand that (there's a limit to how many

requirements you can dump on someone in one book or even in a widespread

movement) it's nonetheless important to not only eat organic meat, but to

get that meat from cows which have been pastured, not grain-fed. There's a

huge difference between organic confinement beef and organic pastured beef,

there's a huge difference between pasteurized organic dairy and raw

grass-fed dairy, and there's a huge difference between organic " free range "

eggs and organic pastured eggs, not just in their underlying ability to

promote long-term health, but in their power to make you feel better NOW.

-

[Guest guest]

Kat-

>Still have problems, so I feel that what he says about swinging too far

>toward the protein ketosis side for a few weeks makes sense.

Just remember to eat enough fat! Fat is what really stabilizes your blood

chemistry, and for people like you and me, who simply can't tolerate much

in the way of carbs, particularly not starchy and sugary foods, it's doubly

important. You could well need to get more than half of your calories from

fat. Just make sure it's mostly animal fat from largely saturated

sources. Vegetable oils as calorie sources (except for some virgin olive

oil if you like) and hydrogenated fats for any purpose are obviously out of

the question.

-

[Guest guest]

Heidi-

>But I like his descriptions of how the metabolism

>changes in response to exercise.

Well, maybe it sounds nice, but it's not true. People who eat high-carb

diets hit a wall when exercising. People who do the reverse don't. The

literature is out there (some is referenced in the article I posted a URL

for on Second Opinions) but, as with cholesterol and heart disease, there's

a huge mound of bogus and misleading research to the contrary. It's

practically a career to decode the research out there.

>What about his exercise recommendations would you disagree with? Granted

>I'm not in the marathon runners category, just someone trying not to become

>too much of a terminal potato.

Well, for one thing, Covert 's reaction to the twin factors of muscle

memory and skill acquisition as they effect efficiency and therefore the

caloric and effort costs of exercise is absurd. He suggests cycling

through different extreme exercises to make sure you continue to get the

" maximum benefit " , and he actually advocates wind sprints as an important

part of that regimen. All this is designed to do _serious_ damage to the body.

I used to believe in aerobic exercise myself, and every other day I did one

hour on the treadmill, pushing myself to the limit. I increased my speed,

I increased the elevation, etc. -- and I did lose weight, but I didn't gain

any muscle mass and after about a year of that, my knees were shot and my

back wasn't too happy. If I'd continued, as some people do, I'd have done

even more damage. (I also had another problem: serious exercise knocked my

blood sugar down for the entire day, so that on any day I walked on the

treadmill, I'd basically be out of commission for the rest of the day.)

Unfortunately, I lost all my bookmarks awhile ago and so I only have a

couple on the subject of exercise, but here they are:

http://www.superslow.com/main.html

http://www.ultimate-exercise.com/

-

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I have been working on putting together a plan, and it seems weird to " go for

the fat! "

The first 2 weeks I am going to really try to stay almost zero carbs (20 per

day), but they are hidden in everything.

So, " half my calories from fat " means I eat in volume about 2 parts meat to 1

part fat. I like bacon, so that will be a good starting point, and I guess high

fat ground beef would be another, I also like Virgin Olive Oil. What about

coconut oil? I checked into nuts, and while they are high in fat they are also

fairly high in carbs. What about fresh broth, that would have all the fats,

right?

In the mornings I eat a fermented mixture of 1 cup kefir, 3 tbsp. freshly ground

flax, 2 tbsp. hulled/ground sesame seeds, 2 tbsp. nutritional yeast = ferment

for another 24 hours before eating. While all this fermenting drastically cuts

down on carbs, I still plan to make the kefir with cream. This is great for

fiber and I like the taste. I know that later this will be fine, but do you see

anything wrong with it for the first 2 weeks?

What other sources do you get your fats from.

Thanks for your help,

Kat

http://www.katking.com

----- Original Message -----

From: Idol

Sent: Sunday, August 11, 2002 11:01 AM

Subject: Re: Carbs and Physical Activity

Kat-

>Still have problems, so I feel that what he says about swinging too far

>toward the protein ketosis side for a few weeks makes sense.

Just remember to eat enough fat! Fat is what really stabilizes your blood

chemistry, and for people like you and me, who simply can't tolerate much

in the way of carbs, particularly not starchy and sugary foods, it's doubly

important. You could well need to get more than half of your calories from

fat. Just make sure it's mostly animal fat from largely saturated

sources. Vegetable oils as calorie sources (except for some virgin olive

oil if you like) and hydrogenated fats for any purpose are obviously out of

the question.

-

[Guest guest]

,

So then, what exercise do you suggest for an aerobic

workout. I exercise on the rebounder about 15 min. 4x

week. Very mild. I find that if I do more I get too

exhausted. If I don't do it at all for a few weeks, I

get too winded and tired when playing tennis, etc. In

your research, what type and duration is suggested for

a healthy body???

--- Idol <Idol@...> wrote:

> Heidi-

>

> >But I like his descriptions of how the metabolism

> >changes in response to exercise.

>

> Well, maybe it sounds nice, but it's not true.

> People who eat high-carb

> diets hit a wall when exercising. People who do the

> reverse don't. The

> literature is out there (some is referenced in the

> article I posted a URL

> for on Second Opinions) but, as with cholesterol and

> heart disease, there's

> a huge mound of bogus and misleading research to the

> contrary. It's

> practically a career to decode the research out

> there.

>

> >What about his exercise recommendations would you

> disagree with? Granted

> >I'm not in the marathon runners category, just

> someone trying not to become

> >too much of a terminal potato.

>

> Well, for one thing, Covert 's reaction to the

> twin factors of muscle

> memory and skill acquisition as they effect

> efficiency and therefore the

> caloric and effort costs of exercise is absurd. He

> suggests cycling

> through different extreme exercises to make sure you

> continue to get the

> " maximum benefit " , and he actually advocates wind

> sprints as an important

> part of that regimen. All this is designed to do

> _serious_ damage to the body.

>

> I used to believe in aerobic exercise myself, and

> every other day I did one

> hour on the treadmill, pushing myself to the limit.

> I increased my speed,

> I increased the elevation, etc. -- and I did lose

> weight, but I didn't gain

> any muscle mass and after about a year of that, my

> knees were shot and my

> back wasn't too happy. If I'd continued, as some

> people do, I'd have done

> even more damage. (I also had another problem:

> serious exercise knocked my

> blood sugar down for the entire day, so that on any

> day I walked on the

> treadmill, I'd basically be out of commission for

> the rest of the day.)

>

> Unfortunately, I lost all my bookmarks awhile ago

> and so I only have a

> couple on the subject of exercise, but here they

> are:

>

> http://www.superslow.com/main.html

>

> http://www.ultimate-exercise.com/

>

>

>

>

>

>

> -

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Kat-

>I have been working on putting together a plan, and it seems weird to " go

>for the fat! "

It can seem weird, but you'll get used to it once you see how much better

you feel!

>The first 2 weeks I am going to really try to stay almost zero carbs (20

>per day), but they are hidden in everything.

Hidden in everything is right, unfortunately. It's hard to eat low-carb,

and it's doubly hard to do so in accordance with NT/NAPD. Seems everything

out there is full of sugar, starch, processed crap, or most likely a

combination of all three.

But it's possible. And if you eat enough fat and reduce your carbs, you'll

find that you can go a long time between meals.

>So, " half my calories from fat " means I eat in volume about 2 parts meat

>to 1 part fat.

To be honest, I'd guess that half your calories from fat is a _minimum_ for

you, at least for now. As long as you make sure your diet includes all the

nutrients you need, which will be helped a lot by the incorporation of raw

grassfed butter and organ meats from pastured cows into your meals, you

should do great.

>I like bacon, so that will be a good starting point, and I guess high fat

>ground beef would be another, I also like Virgin Olive Oil. What about

>coconut oil? I checked into nuts, and while they are high in fat they are

>also fairly high in carbs. What about fresh broth, that would have all

>the fats, right?

Coconut oil is a terrific fat. It stimulates the metabolism, it has

germicidal properties, and it's saturated. Highly recommended. My current

preference in coconut oils has shifted from Tropical Traditions

(www.coconut-info.com) to Coconut Oil Supreme (www.coconutoil-online.com)

but either are excellent and worthwhile. Spectrum and Omega coconut oils

are acceptable in a pinch, but TT and COS are the only true virgin oils on

the market that I know of.

Nuts generally can be a problem in the weight loss phase because they are

very carb rich, but in the longer term they can be an excellent source of

nutrition provided you don't overindulge, as they are somewhat starchy and

rich in omega 6 oils. Almonds are particularly easy to digest, and so I'd

say they're probably the best nut to eat other than coconuts, which are

nearly unique in the vegetable kingdom due to their wonderful lipid

profile. Still and all, coconut meat is quite carby and you may always

need to limit it.

As to ground beef, it can be very useful, particularly if you're on a

budget, but I do have certain reservations. First, if it's ground at the

processing plant instead of at home by you immediately before use, it's

very vulnerable to oxidation. Second, I've been told that plants use harsh

detergents to clean the grinders and that they don't rinse very well,

meaning that all ground beef on the market contains detergent residue. If

true, that's a very bad thing, as those detergents are definitely not safe

for human consumption. I can't say for sure that the detergent problem

exists as I have no rock-solid evidence, but it's certainly not unlikely or

implausible, and I can say that I have more energy and lose weight more

easily when I eat steaks every day instead of ground beef.

Finally, WRT bacon, I'd highly recommend either avoiding it or being

careful about where you get it. As far as brands you can find at a

supermarket, Applegate farms is the best that I know of. It doesn't have

any nitrites or nitrates, and they're a bit better about how they raise

their pigs. But generally speaking, pigs are treated the worst of all

livestock animals by far. They're literally fed garbage -- used fryer oil

being a common example. To paraphrase, they are what they eat. That's not

an indictment of pigs and pork themselves, but it does mean it's best to

order pork, bacon and lard from farms which pasture their pigs and don't

feed them any waste or soy, and preferably not any corn either, as the fat

pigs deposit is basically the fat they consume.

Please don't think that this makes eating healthily untenably difficult,

though! Ordering direct from a farm is actually a great way to support

sustainable agriculture, and even better, you can save money that way by

cutting out the middle man. Eat Wild (www.eatwild.com) is a great resource

for finding farms which pasture their animals and which are near you or

will ship to you.

>I know that later this will be fine, but do you see anything wrong with it

>for the first 2 weeks?

Maybe, maybe not. It's possible that the liver will turn some or all of

the lactic acid back into glucose, so estimating the effective carb count

of fermented dairy is hard to do. That's why I always use at least half

cream, because it has much less sugar than milk to begin with. I've also

found that I feel better if I don't eat a meal of fermented dairy alone,

but have it with some nice, fatty meat. Kefir is definitely an excellent

beverage, though, loaded with nutrients and probiotic cultures!

>What other sources do you get your fats from.

Raw pastured Jersey cream, coconut oil and pastured beef are my main

sources. I occasionally use some olive oil, and I'm about to try some palm

oil to make mayonnaise, plus I eat a fair amount of eggs, but cream (and

butter), coconut oil and beef are the big ones, and if I had to pick one

single food that is most important to my health, it'd have to be beef.

-

[Guest guest]

-

To be honest, I think the whole aerobics movement, in large part created by

Dr. , is possibly just as bad as the low-fat low-cholesterol

fetish in large part created by Dr. Ancel Keys. There's nothing wrong with

walking, playing a sport, etc., and for all I know rebounding may be a good

thing (I've never tried it and I don't know how hard it is on the body) but

an awful lot of the " fitness improvements " noticed due to aerobics are

actually due to skill acquisition and motor memory yielding efficiency

improvements, not increases in actual capacity. This is why exercise

rotation (I forget the official term) came about, because people convinced

of the fundamental virtue of aerobics had to find some way around the

problem of declining returns.

It's also very possible that Dr. Ray Peat is right in saying that the

reason athletes, particularly distance runners, have such low heartbeats is

not because they're so fit, but because their exercise regiments have

rendered them moderately hypothyroid.

For basic health I think strength training is the most important type of

exercise. It builds your body rather than tearing it down, and the

increase in muscle will increase your metabolism and your body's

resilience. However, there are many kinds of strength training, and

they're not all created equal. Some will do just as much damage as any

aerobic workout. The ultimate extension of low-impact high-yield strength

training is called by its creators " Super Slow Exercise " . What that means

is that you move the resistance (weights, nautilus, whatever) very, very

slowly. As I recall, it was originally designed for people with

osteoporosis who simply couldn't move quickly without breaking their bones,

but then they discovered how much more effective and healthy it was for

everyone else. " Super Slow " unfortunately is not a great term from a PR

perspective, and it is just one branch of what's called High Intensity

Training (HIT) but from what I can tell, it's the best.

I have to admit, though, that while all my research points in this

direction, I haven't tried SS myself yet. I can't afford to go to a health

club all the time, and until I can clear out a room and pull together

enough money to buy a modest SS-suitable home gym (most home equipment

isn't well-suited to SS) I won't be able to try it. However, I have

abundant experience with conventional aerobics and a fair amount with

conventional resistance training. (I've tried various equipment and I used

to have a Trimax.) None of them served me well, and I think that SS in

combination with a good diet will enable me to exercise without the

disastrous effects on my blood sugar previous regiments caused.

(Nothing's perfect, unfortunately -- official SS doctrine is that diet

isn't related to musculature.)

>So then, what exercise do you suggest for an aerobic

>workout. I exercise on the rebounder about 15 min. 4x

>week. Very mild. I find that if I do more I get too

>exhausted. If I don't do it at all for a few weeks, I

>get too winded and tired when playing tennis, etc. In

>your research, what type and duration is suggested for

>a healthy body???

-

[Guest guest]

Thank you for the wealth of info. What is your

background in? You are so knowledgeable in many

different areas. Just curious! Also, would speed

walking be healthier than regular walking if you only

have about 15 min. to exercise. Seems like you

wouldn't have to exercise as long if you get your

heart rate up faster. Or are you saying that fast

paced aerobic exercise is not a good thing at all?

If this is the case, I should do very well on this

program... I hate aerobic exercise!!!

--- Idol <Idol@...> wrote:

> -

>

> To be honest, I think the whole aerobics movement,

> in large part created by

> Dr. , is possibly just as bad as the

> low-fat low-cholesterol

> fetish in large part created by Dr. Ancel Keys.

> There's nothing wrong with

> walking, playing a sport, etc., and for all I know

> rebounding may be a good

> thing (I've never tried it and I don't know how hard

> it is on the body) but

> an awful lot of the " fitness improvements " noticed

> due to aerobics are

> actually due to skill acquisition and motor memory

> yielding efficiency

> improvements, not increases in actual capacity.

> This is why exercise

> rotation (I forget the official term) came about,

> because people convinced

> of the fundamental virtue of aerobics had to find

> some way around the

> problem of declining returns.

>

> It's also very possible that Dr. Ray Peat is right

> in saying that the

> reason athletes, particularly distance runners, have

> such low heartbeats is

> not because they're so fit, but because their

> exercise regiments have

> rendered them moderately hypothyroid.

>

> For basic health I think strength training is the

> most important type of

> exercise. It builds your body rather than tearing

> it down, and the

> increase in muscle will increase your metabolism and

> your body's

> resilience. However, there are many kinds of

> strength training, and

> they're not all created equal. Some will do just as

> much damage as any

> aerobic workout. The ultimate extension of

> low-impact high-yield strength

> training is called by its creators " Super Slow

> Exercise " . What that means

> is that you move the resistance (weights, nautilus,

> whatever) very, very

> slowly. As I recall, it was originally designed for

> people with

> osteoporosis who simply couldn't move quickly

> without breaking their bones,

> but then they discovered how much more effective and

> healthy it was for

> everyone else. " Super Slow " unfortunately is not a

> great term from a PR

> perspective, and it is just one branch of what's

> called High Intensity

> Training (HIT) but from what I can tell, it's the

> best.

>

> I have to admit, though, that while all my research

> points in this

> direction, I haven't tried SS myself yet. I can't

> afford to go to a health

> club all the time, and until I can clear out a room

> and pull together

> enough money to buy a modest SS-suitable home gym

> (most home equipment

> isn't well-suited to SS) I won't be able to try it.

> However, I have

> abundant experience with conventional aerobics and a

> fair amount with

> conventional resistance training. (I've tried

> various equipment and I used

> to have a Trimax.) None of them served me well, and

> I think that SS in

> combination with a good diet will enable me to

> exercise without the

> disastrous effects on my blood sugar previous

> regiments caused.

>

> (Nothing's perfect, unfortunately -- official SS

> doctrine is that diet

> isn't related to musculature.)

>

> >So then, what exercise do you suggest for an

> aerobic

> >workout. I exercise on the rebounder about 15 min.

> 4x

> >week. Very mild. I find that if I do more I get

> too

> >exhausted. If I don't do it at all for a few

> weeks, I

> >get too winded and tired when playing tennis, etc.

> In

> >your research, what type and duration is suggested

> for

> >a healthy body???

>

>

>

> -

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

> I used to believe in aerobic exercise myself, and every other day I did

one

> hour on the treadmill, pushing myself to the limit. I increased my speed,

> I increased the elevation, etc. -- and I did lose weight, but I didn't

gain

> any muscle mass and after about a year of that, my knees were shot and my

> back wasn't too happy. If I'd continued, as some people do, I'd have done

> even more damage. (I also had another problem: serious exercise knocked

my

> blood sugar down for the entire day, so that on any day I walked on the

> treadmill, I'd basically be out of commission for the rest of the day.)

Gosh, that's what I call determination!

Kris

[Guest guest]

,

you mention two interesting points:

1) On coconut oil, I just bought Spectrum. It's my first coconut oil jar and

it's all I could find in the time being. Do you think it's still healthy to

use? It says it's " semi-refined, " but I don't know what that means, and it

is organic. Do you know what specifically is the processing and how it

effects the healthfulness?

2) Also, on pork meat, do you think the fact that no one gives pigs the

respect they deserve (what wonderfully smart creatures, if you do!) might

account for the study that found organic pork meat to be high-fuel for cancer

cells, rather than an inherent carcinogenic property of pork?

Chris

____

" What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a

heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and

animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of

them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense

compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to

bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature.

Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the

truth, and for those who do them wrong. "

--Saint Isaac the Syrian

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Thank you for the links - I ordered 3 pounds of the coconut oil. I am still

checking out the " wild " pages.

I try to do raw dairy most of the time, but it gets to be a bit much. Our

health food store sells a quart of raw milk for about $5.00, and they just got

in the raw cream = 1 PINT for $9.99! Wish I had a cow!

This will get me started, thanks again for all your help.

Kat

http://www.katking.com

----- Original Message -----

From: Idol

Sent: Sunday, August 11, 2002 12:07 PM

Subject: Re: Carbs and Physical Activity

Kat-

>I have been working on putting together a plan, and it seems weird to " go

>for the fat! "

It can seem weird, but you'll get used to it once you see how much better

you feel!

>The first 2 weeks I am going to really try to stay almost zero carbs (20

>per day), but they are hidden in everything.

Hidden in everything is right, unfortunately. It's hard to eat low-carb,

and it's doubly hard to do so in accordance with NT/NAPD. Seems everything

out there is full of sugar, starch, processed crap, or most likely a

combination of all three.

But it's possible. And if you eat enough fat and reduce your carbs, you'll

find that you can go a long time between meals.

>So, " half my calories from fat " means I eat in volume about 2 parts meat

>to 1 part fat.

To be honest, I'd guess that half your calories from fat is a _minimum_ for

you, at least for now. As long as you make sure your diet includes all the

nutrients you need, which will be helped a lot by the incorporation of raw

grassfed butter and organ meats from pastured cows into your meals, you

should do great.

>I like bacon, so that will be a good starting point, and I guess high fat

>ground beef would be another, I also like Virgin Olive Oil. What about

>coconut oil? I checked into nuts, and while they are high in fat they are

>also fairly high in carbs. What about fresh broth, that would have all

>the fats, right?

Coconut oil is a terrific fat. It stimulates the metabolism, it has

germicidal properties, and it's saturated. Highly recommended. My current

preference in coconut oils has shifted from Tropical Traditions

(www.coconut-info.com) to Coconut Oil Supreme (www.coconutoil-online.com)

but either are excellent and worthwhile. Spectrum and Omega coconut oils

are acceptable in a pinch, but TT and COS are the only true virgin oils on

the market that I know of.

Nuts generally can be a problem in the weight loss phase because they are

very carb rich, but in the longer term they can be an excellent source of

nutrition provided you don't overindulge, as they are somewhat starchy and

rich in omega 6 oils. Almonds are particularly easy to digest, and so I'd

say they're probably the best nut to eat other than coconuts, which are

nearly unique in the vegetable kingdom due to their wonderful lipid

profile. Still and all, coconut meat is quite carby and you may always

need to limit it.

As to ground beef, it can be very useful, particularly if you're on a

budget, but I do have certain reservations. First, if it's ground at the

processing plant instead of at home by you immediately before use, it's

very vulnerable to oxidation. Second, I've been told that plants use harsh

detergents to clean the grinders and that they don't rinse very well,

meaning that all ground beef on the market contains detergent residue. If

true, that's a very bad thing, as those detergents are definitely not safe

for human consumption. I can't say for sure that the detergent problem

exists as I have no rock-solid evidence, but it's certainly not unlikely or

implausible, and I can say that I have more energy and lose weight more

easily when I eat steaks every day instead of ground beef.

Finally, WRT bacon, I'd highly recommend either avoiding it or being

careful about where you get it. As far as brands you can find at a

supermarket, Applegate farms is the best that I know of. It doesn't have

any nitrites or nitrates, and they're a bit better about how they raise

their pigs. But generally speaking, pigs are treated the worst of all

livestock animals by far. They're literally fed garbage -- used fryer oil

being a common example. To paraphrase, they are what they eat. That's not

an indictment of pigs and pork themselves, but it does mean it's best to

order pork, bacon and lard from farms which pasture their pigs and don't

feed them any waste or soy, and preferably not any corn either, as the fat

pigs deposit is basically the fat they consume.

Please don't think that this makes eating healthily untenably difficult,

though! Ordering direct from a farm is actually a great way to support

sustainable agriculture, and even better, you can save money that way by

cutting out the middle man. Eat Wild (www.eatwild.com) is a great resource

for finding farms which pasture their animals and which are near you or

will ship to you.

>I know that later this will be fine, but do you see anything wrong with it

>for the first 2 weeks?

Maybe, maybe not. It's possible that the liver will turn some or all of

the lactic acid back into glucose, so estimating the effective carb count

of fermented dairy is hard to do. That's why I always use at least half

cream, because it has much less sugar than milk to begin with. I've also

found that I feel better if I don't eat a meal of fermented dairy alone,

but have it with some nice, fatty meat. Kefir is definitely an excellent

beverage, though, loaded with nutrients and probiotic cultures!

>What other sources do you get your fats from.

Raw pastured Jersey cream, coconut oil and pastured beef are my main

sources. I occasionally use some olive oil, and I'm about to try some palm

oil to make mayonnaise, plus I eat a fair amount of eggs, but cream (and

butter), coconut oil and beef are the big ones, and if I had to pick one

single food that is most important to my health, it'd have to be beef.-

[Guest guest]

At 04:49 AM 8/11/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>I'd argue that's not a fair comparison, though. Or perhaps it's a fair

>complaint about Atkins today, since he has all this crap to sell (and boy

>oh boy do I mean crap!) but it's not at all a fair complaint about

>low-carbing. Hell, I'm low-carbing and I typically have some berries every

>week -- smothered in whipped cream, of course. <g>

Well, by those standards I've always been " low carb " (except when I've been

cooking for " normal " people) -- I did not eat grains or sugars, mainly

because they were too much work. My only starches were tortillas now and

then and some potatoes (fattening or no: though at the time it wasn't a

problem). Mostly I ate lots of granny smith apples and peanut butter, eggs,

chicken, tuna, and vegies. And things like berries and cream! And some rye

crisp. All the stuff that was easy to prepare and cheap.

Which by a more moderate " low carb " standard is probably fairly low carb. I

can't relate at all the the " normal " diet which seems to me to be

humoungously high in carbs (like, all starch!). I have two people in my

life now who are on a super-low-carb thing though and it makes me feel like

a high-carber.

> >They eat bread that's not " on " the diet, feel lousy,

> >and assume it is the carb in the bread. But that person might do just fine

> >on sweet potatoes!

>

>Depends what you mean by " just fine " . A sweet potato will generally cause

>somewhat fewer complications for a carb-sensitive person than the

>equivalent amount of bread, but it'll still have a profound effect on

>weight. I find there are few things more fattening than potatoes (which

>hurts, because I love them so much -- but then there's the addictive nature

>of starchy and sugary carb foods for you!) and interestingly enough, if you

>look at literature and recommendations from yore, back when people knew

>animal fats were good for you, it turns out that people knew that potatoes

>were some of the most fattening things you could possibly eat.

They could be very fattening: I haven't tested that out much. But they

don't affect my energy or hunger levels. Maybe because I usually eat them

fried as hash browns (raw fries) in coconut oil.

>(Personally

>I consider all modern potatoes to be effectively refined carbs. They are

>so much richer in starch than anything you'd find in nature that the

>selective breeding process has yielded something similar to the refining

>process. For that matter, I think the same thing is true of

>grains. Grains as we know them are extremely recent inventions; there

>simply were no foods nearly as starchy for evolving humans to consume.)

I'd agree with both. Interestingly though, many cultures DO have big

starchy roots to consume, like taro. And often they don't eat it just

cooked -- they ferment it first. Maybe because it's too starchy?

Manioc -- a staple for a long time in Brazil -- is pretty much plain starch

too, and it gets fermented at least some of the time.

>And for that matter, when in the past I've indulged in some potatoes, I

>felt like crap afterwards and the next day. Maybe a little less than if

>I'd had bread or sugar, maybe not. People's degrees of tolerance vary,

>but I don't think that these are fundamentally healthy foods. At best

>they can play a small role in a genuinely balanced diet.

I still don't know about potatoes: sweet potatoes esp. seem to be really

full of good stuff. Glycemically though there are issues. I can't eat a ton

of them, but I'm not tempted to either: a small batch does me good. If I

eat very few carbs I get sickish: I need some fruit or potato or something

to balance the protein, less if there is more fat with the meal though.

Probably one of those things you have to figure out your own metabolism.

Heidi

[Guest guest]

This is wierd. I now get organic milk from jersey cows. I have been

taking 1 cup for breakfast and lunch ( well a litte over maybe 300

mills for each meal) I now have gotten slightly lethargic. Perhaps it

is the carb content of the milk? How many carbs are in it?. Is Kefir

the best thign to do with it to get rid of alot of carbs? I also get

butter from teh same guy raw and also as of last week cream (

extremely think it is to ) I do alot of exersise adn i notice in last

2 weeks I am getting tired and have lost some " virbancy "

im thinkign its from teh milk.

> Kat-

>

> >I have been working on putting together a plan, and it seems weird

to " go

> >for the fat! "

>

> It can seem weird, but you'll get used to it once you see how much

better

> you feel!

>

> >The first 2 weeks I am going to really try to stay almost zero

carbs (20

> >per day), but they are hidden in everything.

>

> Hidden in everything is right, unfortunately. It's hard to eat low-

carb,

> and it's doubly hard to do so in accordance with NT/NAPD. Seems

everything

> out there is full of sugar, starch, processed crap, or most likely

a

> combination of all three.

>

> But it's possible. And if you eat enough fat and reduce your

carbs, you'll

> find that you can go a long time between meals.

>

> >So, " half my calories from fat " means I eat in volume about 2

parts meat

> >to 1 part fat.

>

> To be honest, I'd guess that half your calories from fat is a

_minimum_ for

> you, at least for now. As long as you make sure your diet includes

all the

> nutrients you need, which will be helped a lot by the incorporation

of raw

> grassfed butter and organ meats from pastured cows into your meals,

you

> should do great.

>

> >I like bacon, so that will be a good starting point, and I guess

high fat

> >ground beef would be another, I also like Virgin Olive Oil. What

about

> >coconut oil? I checked into nuts, and while they are high in fat

they are

> >also fairly high in carbs. What about fresh broth, that would

have all

> >the fats, right?

>

> Coconut oil is a terrific fat. It stimulates the metabolism, it

has

> germicidal properties, and it's saturated. Highly recommended. My

current

> preference in coconut oils has shifted from Tropical Traditions

> (www.coconut-info.com) to Coconut Oil Supreme (www.coconutoil-

online.com)

> but either are excellent and worthwhile. Spectrum and Omega

coconut oils

> are acceptable in a pinch, but TT and COS are the only true virgin

oils on

> the market that I know of.

>

> Nuts generally can be a problem in the weight loss phase because

they are

> very carb rich, but in the longer term they can be an excellent

source of

> nutrition provided you don't overindulge, as they are somewhat

starchy and

> rich in omega 6 oils. Almonds are particularly easy to digest, and

so I'd

> say they're probably the best nut to eat other than coconuts, which

are

> nearly unique in the vegetable kingdom due to their wonderful lipid

> profile. Still and all, coconut meat is quite carby and you may

always

> need to limit it.

>

> As to ground beef, it can be very useful, particularly if you're on

a

> budget, but I do have certain reservations. First, if it's ground

at the

> processing plant instead of at home by you immediately before use,

it's

> very vulnerable to oxidation. Second, I've been told that plants

use harsh

> detergents to clean the grinders and that they don't rinse very

well,

> meaning that all ground beef on the market contains detergent

residue. If

> true, that's a very bad thing, as those detergents are definitely

not safe

> for human consumption. I can't say for sure that the detergent

problem

> exists as I have no rock-solid evidence, but it's certainly not

unlikely or

> implausible, and I can say that I have more energy and lose weight

more

> easily when I eat steaks every day instead of ground beef.

>

> Finally, WRT bacon, I'd highly recommend either avoiding it or

being

> careful about where you get it. As far as brands you can find at a

> supermarket, Applegate farms is the best that I know of. It

doesn't have

> any nitrites or nitrates, and they're a bit better about how they

raise

> their pigs. But generally speaking, pigs are treated the worst of

all

> livestock animals by far. They're literally fed garbage -- used

fryer oil

> being a common example. To paraphrase, they are what they eat.

That's not

> an indictment of pigs and pork themselves, but it does mean it's

best to

> order pork, bacon and lard from farms which pasture their pigs and

don't

> feed them any waste or soy, and preferably not any corn either, as

the fat

> pigs deposit is basically the fat they consume.

>

> Please don't think that this makes eating healthily untenably

difficult,

> though! Ordering direct from a farm is actually a great way to

support

> sustainable agriculture, and even better, you can save money that

way by

> cutting out the middle man. Eat Wild (www.eatwild.com) is a great

resource

> for finding farms which pasture their animals and which are near

you or

> will ship to you.

>

> >I know that later this will be fine, but do you see anything wrong

with it

> >for the first 2 weeks?

>

> Maybe, maybe not. It's possible that the liver will turn some or

all of

> the lactic acid back into glucose, so estimating the effective carb

count

> of fermented dairy is hard to do. That's why I always use at least

half

> cream, because it has much less sugar than milk to begin with.

I've also

> found that I feel better if I don't eat a meal of fermented dairy

alone,

> but have it with some nice, fatty meat. Kefir is definitely an

excellent

> beverage, though, loaded with nutrients and probiotic cultures!

>

> >What other sources do you get your fats from.

>

> Raw pastured Jersey cream, coconut oil and pastured beef are my

main

> sources. I occasionally use some olive oil, and I'm about to try

some palm

> oil to make mayonnaise, plus I eat a fair amount of eggs, but cream

(and

> butter), coconut oil and beef are the big ones, and if I had to

pick one

> single food that is most important to my health, it'd have to be

beef.

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