Re: Re: meat birds

[Guest guest]

At 01:18 AM 8/20/2002 +0000, you wrote:

>. I think everyone would benefit

>from raising their own meat animals at some point, it drives

>home that we are living off others (not that it's wrong or bad, but it

>is a fact of life everyone should be intimately familiar with - plants

>lose their lives to us, as well).

I really agree with this. I've had to butcher the

roosters we get occasionally, and it really puts you in

touch with life, as well as the responsibility you take

when you decide to raise captive animals (whether you

are eating them or not, their life is literally in your

hands for good or ill). It made me understand more the

sentiment attributed

to the Indians, of thanking the animal you just killed

for it's life.

Life really never has a " good " ending, though, which

I guess makes me feel more a part of the process. Wild

animals generally end up being food for some other animal:

" death of old age " is a luxury of communal living.

Heidi

[Guest guest]

Quoting aubinparrish <aubinparrish@...>:

>

> > Life really never has a " good " ending,

>

> That depends on how you view what happens after death.

It depends on what happens or does not happen. How one views it is

irrelevant.

> None

> of us will get out of here alive, but when you don't view death as

> the ultimate disaster or end of the road, that fact doesn't seem

> scary.

That's why belief in an afterlife is so dangerous. Death should be very,

very scary, especially in this day and age, when there's no good reason why

we couldn't develop technology to extend human life indefinitely within a

few decades. Belief in an afterlife serves to reduce demand for this

technology and in some cases even causes people to promote regulation that

stifles technological development in these areas--just one step short of

murder.

--

Berg

bberg@...

[Guest guest]

I don't know ...many beliefs about the afterlife are far from pleasant.

Anyone who believes that they might go to hell would be VERY interested in

prolonging life on this earth as long as possible.

Which traditional, healthy groups didn't believe in an afterlife? Or the bigger

question: what factors besides nutrition determine physical/mental/emotional

health? Maybe this is off topic, but since we are all interested in optimal

health, I think it merits thought and discussion.

That's why belief in an afterlife is so dangerous. Death should be very,

very scary, especially in this day and age, when there's no good reason why

we couldn't develop technology to extend human life indefinitely within a

few decades. Belief in an afterlife serves to reduce demand for this

technology and in some cases even causes people to promote regulation that

stifles technological development in these areas--just one step short of

murder.

[Guest guest]

> --- is everyone going to get a fair shot at this new

> technology or perhaps only the wealthy? Dennis

>

Without straying too far off topic, that was *one* of my sentiments exactly.

To my understanding, improved santiation has increased lifespan as well as

controlled infectious diseases which claim/claimed lives. (Not modern

medicine, although they like to claim so.) But, sanitation shouldn't be

confused with technology that is polluting our water, air, and food.

Usually, it's only the few and ultra elite that can make a decision that a

nuclear power plant or a toxic landfill that's poisoning ground water and

air will be in your backyard. I don't recall anyone asking *me* what I

thought about GMO before they started to mess with the food crops. And you

can bet that was no accident, just like no one asked you. They do what they

like, and we end up having to fight just to get some raw butter. So maybe

technology is really what's just short of mass murder.

Marla

[Guest guest]

At 01:51 PM 8/23/2002 -0700, you wrote:

> > Life really never has a " good " ending,

> > That depends on how you view what happens after death.

>

>It depends on what happens or does not happen. How one views it is

>irrelevant.

Well, really, what I meant had to do with chickens. A bird in " the wild "

is likely to die before adulthood (often out-competed by it's own siblings),

and sooner or later it is food for some animal. It does NOT live a

comfortable life and die in old age, a life that many *pets* in fact enjoy.

I've seen dog owners, in particular, wrestle with the concept of

whether or not to " put the animal down " when it was sick and

suffering. Sometimes, like the boy in " old yeller " , they decide

that it is their duty to end the animal's life. Other times, they

decide it should happen according to _____ (fill in the blank

depending on the belief system)'s will. Or, they try to work

full-bore with the vet to save the animals life -- which is just

as big an intervention as the first option.

I'm not trying to take sides on that issue, and, as

says, in a sense the " afterlife " issue is irrelevant in the

decision-making process. The point is, that when you " own "

an animal you have taken it OUT of the " natural process "

and now it's welfare is in your hands. It's a lot easier to

handle that responsibility if you face up to it directly.

In our society, I feel we have foisted off a LOT of responsibilities

like that, by " eating meat " , but only if it comes wrapped in plastic.

I think THAT is one of the big reasons people become vegetarians:

we are divorced from nature, from the entire process. Other

generations, if they ate meat, they had to usually raise and kill

the animal, and, surprisingly, they had less conflicts about the

process (and fewer conflicts about the idea of their own mortality,

regardless of their views on afterlife).

It's a little like the idea of " germs " -- since I've been raising my own

pet germs (kefir and kimchi), I feel much more at home with the

idea of bacteria in general. Instead of being afraid of them and

willing to pop out the bleach to disinfect everything, I've got

a better idea of the balances involved (i.e. kefir germs will

outcompete any ecoli germs on my jerky meat, for instance).

That may seem like an odd comparison, but the fear of germs

and the conflict over killing an animal you raised are linked,

in my mind. Both are issues that my great-great-grandmother

just would not have understood.

Heidi