Long rise yeast bread question

[Guest guest]

Hi, all!

I am adapting a recipe to use in my Zojirushi Traditional Loaf breadmaker.

I would love to take advantage of the 3 long rise cycles to take the place

of soaking the grain. If I can't just add the ingredients and come back

later for fresh bread, bread doesn't get made. The recipe I've created

is really wonderful with my current method which is a short sponge, short 2

rises, and baking. I am slowly changing some of the amounts like reducing

the gluten and yeast amounts.

I would love to use the 3 long rises, so I can have the best nutritional

value with the convenience of using a breadmaker. I can set each rise for up

to 2 hours. I thought if I reduced the yeast substantially, I could get

away with that, but I have no idea how much I should reduce the yeast. I

didn't want to experiment and get a lot of bricks, so I thougt I'd ask. How

much yeast would I need for a 3 cup flour loaf rising for 6 hours? Also,

how much buttermilk, whey or yogurt would I need to use to create the

correct soaking environment? Any help would be appreciated.

Here is my current recipe and timing on each step.

Sternick Sponged Whole Wheat Bread for the Zojirushi Traditional

Hand mix in bread pan:

1 1/2 c. whole wheat flour

1 1/2 c. water

2 1/4 tsp. yeast

Place gently on top without mixing in:

1 1/2 c. whole wheat flour

3 Tbsp. gluten (I plan to reduce this slowly until the texture of loaf

changes too much. My regular recipe doesn't use added gluten)

3 Tbsp. honey

3 Tbsp. olive oil or butter

1/2 tsp. Barley Malt powder (optional - the yeast love it and it imparts a

subtle flavor to the finished loaf)

1/8 tsp. Vitamin C powder (optional - I will probably add something like

buttermilk or whey instead when I get the longer rise worked out.)

3/4 tsp. salt

The programmable settings I use:

Preheat: 30 minutes (this is the sponging part)

Knead: 20 minutes

Rise 1: 30 minutes

Rise 2: 30 minutes

Rise 3: OFF

Bake: 30 minutes

Warming: OFF

Thanks! ine in SC

[Guest guest]

---ine I've baked whole wheat bread using what I called a " cool

ferment " with a small amount of yeast and finely ground hi protein

hard red winter wheat. Is your bread machine holding the sponge at

normal sponge temps? Can that temp be adjusted? I'd try around 1/4

teaspoon of yeast in your recipe, especially if the sponge temp is

around 95F. You may get so good at the process you'll add a starter

instead of the yeast each time. Also a longer sponge will allow more

flavor development in my opinion. Is the " sponge " time adjustable?

Good luck. You may not have complete success the first try. Dennis

In @y..., " ine Sternick " <psternick@c...> wrote:

> Hi, all!

>

> I am adapting a recipe to use in my Zojirushi Traditional Loaf

breadmaker.

> I would love to take advantage of the 3 long rise cycles to take

the place

> of soaking the grain. If I can't just add the ingredients and

come back

> later for fresh bread, bread doesn't get made. The recipe I've

created

> is really wonderful with my current method which is a short sponge,

short 2

> rises, and baking. I am slowly changing some of the amounts like

reducing

> the gluten and yeast amounts.

>

> I would love to use the 3 long rises, so I can have the best

nutritional

> value with the convenience of using a breadmaker. I can set each

rise for up

> to 2 hours. I thought if I reduced the yeast substantially, I

could get

> away with that, but I have no idea how much I should reduce the

yeast. I

> didn't want to experiment and get a lot of bricks, so I thougt I'd

ask. How

> much yeast would I need for a 3 cup flour loaf rising for 6 hours?

Also,

> how much buttermilk, whey or yogurt would I need to use to create

the

> correct soaking environment? Any help would be appreciated.

>

> Here is my current recipe and timing on each step.

>

> Sternick Sponged Whole Wheat Bread for the Zojirushi Traditional

>

> Hand mix in bread pan:

> 1 1/2 c. whole wheat flour

> 1 1/2 c. water

> 2 1/4 tsp. yeast

>

> Place gently on top without mixing in:

> 1 1/2 c. whole wheat flour

> 3 Tbsp. gluten (I plan to reduce this slowly until the texture of

loaf

> changes too much. My regular recipe doesn't use added gluten)

> 3 Tbsp. honey

> 3 Tbsp. olive oil or butter

> 1/2 tsp. Barley Malt powder (optional - the yeast love it and it

imparts a

> subtle flavor to the finished loaf)

> 1/8 tsp. Vitamin C powder (optional - I will probably add something

like

> buttermilk or whey instead when I get the longer rise worked out.)

> 3/4 tsp. salt

>

> The programmable settings I use:

> Preheat: 30 minutes (this is the sponging part)

> Knead: 20 minutes

> Rise 1: 30 minutes

> Rise 2: 30 minutes

> Rise 3: OFF

> Bake: 30 minutes

> Warming: OFF

>

> Thanks! ine in SC

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the tip, Dennis!

The sponge temp is 82.4 degrees F. Rise 1 and 2 are also at 82.4 F. Rise 3

is at 100.4 F. Baking is 254-290 F. I can't change the temps.

I thought 1/4 tsp yeast might be good for a first try! Do you think I can

use all 6 hours of rising time? The sponge time is actual the " preheat "

cycle and the maximum is 30 minutes. How long can I let it sponge? Would

it be possible to put the ingredients in to sponge the night before and then

actually turn the breadmachine on in the morning to let it do its thing? I

have to keep this as simple as possible.

ine

[Guest guest]

---Let it sponge the entire 30 minutes or incorporate idea below. In

the recipe book which came with the machine there are probably some

recipes for bread made using the programmed cycle(ie start the loaf

at a predetermined time provided the ingredients are already in the

bowl).This may provide some ideas. You could probably add the NT

ingredients, hand mix them and the sponge would be started, then set

the machine to come on 2 or 3 or 4 hours later. I would only soak

the flour with the suggested ingredients in NT and maybe a small amt

of yeast.. Then add the rest of the flour, butter,butttermilk,milk,

eggs etc prior to the machine's first mix. You can sponge 2 or 3

hours depending on the ingredients in the sponge. You don't want a

bunch of salmonella multiplying at room temp in the sponge for

instance, for 2 or 3 hours. The sponge is typically salt,

flour,small amt. of yeast, water,and a small amt of sweetener. When

you sponge you have to shorten the mix time, if I remember correctly.

The sponge will take care of most of the soak time for most of the

flour. Does NT call for whey in the soaking? I haven't made bread

that much esp since Heidi indicated so many folks are gluten

intolerant. And I haven't made it the NT way at all, even though I

previously used the long cool ferment of sorts.. I sort of make bread

my own way. BTW, the sponge temp sounds good. Fresh bread (< 24 hours

out of the oven)is definitely the best. You'll have to oversee the

experiment a bit to get to the point you save time! Dennis

In @y..., " ine Sternick " <psternick@c...> wrote:

> Thanks for the tip, Dennis!

>

> The sponge temp is 82.4 degrees F. Rise 1 and 2 are also at 82.4

F. Rise 3

> is at 100.4 F. Baking is 254-290 F. I can't change the temps.

>

> I thought 1/4 tsp yeast might be good for a first try! Do you

think I can

> use all 6 hours of rising time? The sponge time is actual

the " preheat "

> cycle and the maximum is 30 minutes. How long can I let it

sponge? Would

> it be possible to put the ingredients in to sponge the night before

and then

> actually turn the breadmachine on in the morning to let it do its

thing? I

> have to keep this as simple as possible.

>

> ine

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

--- In @y..., " ine Sternick " <psternick@c...>

wrote:

> Thanks for the tip, Dennis!

>

> The sponge temp is 82.4 degrees F. Rise 1 and 2 are also at 82.4

F. Rise 3

> is at 100.4 F. Baking is 254-290 F. I can't change the temps.

>

> I thought 1/4 tsp yeast might be good for a first try! Do you

think I can

> use all 6 hours of rising time?

ine, you may be able to, as long as the dough piece doesn't get

overmixed or too warm in any or all these rises. Whole wheat bread

can be undermixed or overmixed and overheated relatively easily.

Watch and check the dough piece as it goes along its way and make

manual adjustments as necessary.

The sponge time is actual the " preheat "

> cycle and the maximum is 30 minutes. How long can I let it

sponge?

I'd say somewhere between 2 and 4 to 6 hours. If you let the sponge

go the long period use maybe as little as 1/8 tsp yeast.

Would

> it be possible to put the ingredients in to sponge the night before

and then

> actually turn the breadmachine on in the morning to let it do its

thing?

I think it could work but at the end of the sponge the sponge needs

to be inflated,bubbly and spongy, sort of like an inflated sponge?

and not all flat and deflated. Use less yeast if it explodes before

you're ready to " dough up " (add the last flour and ingredients).

I

> have to keep this as simple as possible.

>

> ine

>

I think you're ready to start if you haven't already! Dennis

>

>