Re: Book: Dangerous Grains

[Guest guest]

Heidi,

could you kindly supply full details of the book so that one can order

it?...

TIA

Dedy

----- Original Message -----

From: " Heidi Schuppenhauer " <heidis@...>

< >

Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 9:43 PM

Subject: Book: Dangerous Grains

>

> This is a new book, and I just got a copy. For anyone who is

> interested in gluten-grain issues, this is a good book! The

> authors are rather conservative, and basically try to give

> an overview of the current research (without trying to

> force a lot of conclusions about what the reader should do).

>

> However, I DID find it interesting that they also are for

> a rather NT-style diet: soups with bones, organ meats,

> good fats. Eating more game meats and grass-fed meats.

>

> Their take on gluten issues is interesting. The " celiac " reaction

> is found in probably 1/100 people. But that is only a subset

> of the people reacting. Something like 20% of people have

> anti-gliadin antibodies, which means the gluten is in fact

> leaking into the bloodstream. If it leaks into your bloodstream,

> it acts as an opioid, and their feeling is that opioids in general

> cause in increase in all kinds of cancers by disabling the T cells.

> (Addicts tend to have very high cancer rates). However,

> in the meantime it makes you feel good, hence the fact

> that most " comfort foods " are glutinous. (Casien has the

> same problem, but not so potent).

>

> Which may explain the observation someone made that the

> anti-cancer diets, while very different, all seem to exclude gluten.

>

> Also the opioids cause insulin to be over-produced, leading

> to more fat storage (and more diabetes type problems).

>

> Also gluten is just not very well digested, and if it does leak

> through the gut, it damages other organs on contact. The opioid

> and gluten problems will happen to anyone who has a somewhat

> leaky gut (which is a big chunk of the population), NOT just to

> the people who happen to be genetically inclined to celiac.

>

> Anyway, their take is that gluten-overdose is going to turn

> out to be THE BIG health problem of the last century, and

> it's going to be a big issue in this one as the researchers

> come to terms with the data that is coming in now. The research

> has been going on for a long time now, but, the authors say,

> no one really wants to believe that something as obiquitous

> and well-thought of as wheat could be harmful: and for a lot

> of people there is a religous aspect.

>

> Which is pretty much what I was feeling, based on my experiences,

> but it was odd to see it in print from some rather conservative

> sources. I kind of think a LOT of the degeneration Price saw

> in the primatives was from the introduction of wheat products:

> the wheat issues take about 20 years to surface, which is

> about what he observed.

>

>

>

> Heidi

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Heidi: I think I have an allergy to gluten also. I've had a suspicion

and abstained for a while then just this last week made some wheat bread.

Now I'm breaking out in rashes again. Is this the kind of symptoms you are

talking about? I'd also like to know what the complete book title is and

the author.

Thanks,

Marla

----- Original Message -----

> This is a new book, and I just got a copy. For anyone who is

> interested in gluten-grain issues, this is a good book!

[Guest guest]

Hi. Are oats listed as a bad grain?

Thanks.

>

> This is a new book, and I just got a copy. For anyone who is

> interested in gluten-grain issues, this is a good book! The

> authors are rather conservative, and basically try to give

> an overview of the current research (without trying to

> force a lot of conclusions about what the reader should do).

>

> However, I DID find it interesting that they also are for

> a rather NT-style diet: soups with bones, organ meats,

> good fats. Eating more game meats and grass-fed meats.

>

> Their take on gluten issues is interesting. The " celiac " reaction

> is found in probably 1/100 people. But that is only a subset

> of the people reacting. Something like 20% of people have

> anti-gliadin antibodies, which means the gluten is in fact

> leaking into the bloodstream. If it leaks into your bloodstream,

> it acts as an opioid, and their feeling is that opioids in general

> cause in increase in all kinds of cancers by disabling the T cells.

> (Addicts tend to have very high cancer rates). However,

> in the meantime it makes you feel good, hence the fact

> that most " comfort foods " are glutinous. (Casien has the

> same problem, but not so potent).

>

> Which may explain the observation someone made that the

> anti-cancer diets, while very different, all seem to exclude gluten.

>

> Also the opioids cause insulin to be over-produced, leading

> to more fat storage (and more diabetes type problems).

>

> Also gluten is just not very well digested, and if it does leak

> through the gut, it damages other organs on contact. The opioid

> and gluten problems will happen to anyone who has a somewhat

> leaky gut (which is a big chunk of the population), NOT just to

> the people who happen to be genetically inclined to celiac.

>

> Anyway, their take is that gluten-overdose is going to turn

> out to be THE BIG health problem of the last century, and

> it's going to be a big issue in this one as the researchers

> come to terms with the data that is coming in now. The research

> has been going on for a long time now, but, the authors say,

> no one really wants to believe that something as obiquitous

> and well-thought of as wheat could be harmful: and for a lot

> of people there is a religous aspect.

>

> Which is pretty much what I was feeling, based on my experiences,

> but it was odd to see it in print from some rather conservative

> sources. I kind of think a LOT of the degeneration Price saw

> in the primatives was from the introduction of wheat products:

> the wheat issues take about 20 years to surface, which is

> about what he observed.

>

>

>

> Heidi

[Guest guest]

At 03:43 PM 9/9/2002 -0700, you wrote:

>Hi Heidi: I think I have an allergy to gluten also. I've had a suspicion

>and abstained for a while then just this last week made some wheat bread.

>Now I'm breaking out in rashes again. Is this the kind of symptoms you are

>talking about? I'd also like to know what the complete book title is and

>the author.

>

>Thanks,

>

>Marla

Marla and Dedy: it is:

Dangerous Grains: Why Gluten Cereal Grains May Be Hazardous to Your Health

by Braly M.D., Ron Hoggan M.A.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1583331298/qid=1031630293/sr=8-1/r\

ef=sr_8_1/102-0894996-6960931?v=glance & s=books & n=507846

Sorry, I should have quoted the whole thing.

As for what I'm talking about:

The book goes into the issues and it's more complicated than I thought:

it's not just " allergies " (allergies can go away, and you can get

desensitized).

I THOUGHT I was allergic to gluten when I was 17, then I started eating it

again figuring I was " cured " . The issue with gluten is that if you have " leaky

gut " (and everyone does, a little bit, but some people have it a lot) is that

1. The immune system gets confused and attacks your own body,

leading to FM, thyroiditis, some kinds of diabetes, and a whole

mess of autoimmune diseases.

2. The opioids stop your T cells from working correctly (leaving you

open to infections, cancer, etc.

3. The opioids affect your brain, leading to all kinds of brain disorders.

I had all 3: I was getting arthritis and FM (1), chronic sinusitis (2),

depression

and nerve conditions (3). I also DO get itchy when I eat wheat, and

break out into little bumps, which is what finally convinced me I'm

not a hypochondriac. On top of those 3, you can also have Celiac, which

makes your gut damaged. And, the gluten itself isn't digested, for most

people, or partially digested, and if it leaves your gut, it damages other

organs it comes into contact with.

But as the book points out, there is SO LITTLE known about the whole thing!

What they do know is that the people who have certain diseases tend to

be high on gliaden antibodies. But they do a good job on summarizing

the current research, and giving references for where they got it.

Heidi

[Guest guest]

At 04:10 AM 9/10/2002 +0000, you wrote:

>Hi. Are oats listed as a bad grain?

>

>

>Thanks.

Probably OK. If you are sensitized to wheat, then oats may

be bad (because of contamination), but they seem to

be ok generally. The authors don't recommend them for

people with a known wheat sensitivity, but my own

research seems to indicate that oats have lots of good

stuff in them and not much bad stuff.

Heidi

[Guest guest]

Thanks. Last I read on a celiac site 2 years ago was that they were

unsure of oats. Have further testing with celiacs cleared oats?

> >Hi. Are oats listed as a bad grain?

> >

> >

> >Thanks.

>

> Probably OK. If you are sensitized to wheat, then oats may

> be bad (because of contamination), but they seem to

> be ok generally. The authors don't recommend them for

> people with a known wheat sensitivity, but my own

> research seems to indicate that oats have lots of good

> stuff in them and not much bad stuff.

>

>

>

> Heidi

>

>

[Guest guest]

I don't think celiacs can have oats because oats contain gluten just not as

much as wheat. people who are sensitive to gluten usually don't tolerate

oats either.

At 09:46 PM 9/9/02, you wrote:

>Thanks. Last I read on a celiac site 2 years ago was that they were

>unsure of oats. Have further testing with celiacs cleared oats?

>

>

>

>

>

> > >Hi. Are oats listed as a bad grain?

> > >

> > >

> > >Thanks.

> >

> > Probably OK. If you are sensitized to wheat, then oats may

> > be bad (because of contamination), but they seem to

> > be ok generally. The authors don't recommend them for

> > people with a known wheat sensitivity, but my own

> > research seems to indicate that oats have lots of good

> > stuff in them and not much bad stuff.

> >

> >

> >

> > Heidi

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

If one is gluten sensitive, oats should be avoided. they contain gluten

albeit a lot less than wheat.

if one is wheat sensitive, oats should be fine.

personally, I can't have any gluten-containing grain. have tried in the

past to see if I can just cut out wheat rather than gluten and each time, to

my great disappointment had to admit defeat. I did SOOOOO love bread of all

kinds. sigh...

thanks for the details Heidi.

Dedy

----- Original Message -----

From: " tomsnames " <tomsnames@...>

< >

Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 5:46 AM

Subject: Re: Book: Dangerous Grains

> Thanks. Last I read on a celiac site 2 years ago was that they were

> unsure of oats. Have further testing with celiacs cleared oats?

>

>

>

>

>

> > >Hi. Are oats listed as a bad grain?

> > >

> > >

> > >Thanks.

> >

> > Probably OK. If you are sensitized to wheat, then oats may

> > be bad (because of contamination), but they seem to

> > be ok generally. The authors don't recommend them for

> > people with a known wheat sensitivity, but my own

> > research seems to indicate that oats have lots of good

> > stuff in them and not much bad stuff.

> >

> >

> >

> > Heidi

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Do you have any sources? Last I read was that oats probably didn't

have the alpha gliadian portion and that celiacs did not react to

oats and that a few more larger studies needed to be carried out to

be sure. Anyone have any information about this or can point to a

website with updated info?

Thanks

> > > >Hi. Are oats listed as a bad grain?

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >Thanks.

> > >

> > > Probably OK. If you are sensitized to wheat, then oats may

> > > be bad (because of contamination), but they seem to

> > > be ok generally. The authors don't recommend them for

> > > people with a known wheat sensitivity, but my own

> > > research seems to indicate that oats have lots of good

> > > stuff in them and not much bad stuff.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Heidi

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

I should say, did not react to pure oats. Commercial oats usually

have some contamination with wheat.

> > > > >Hi. Are oats listed as a bad grain?

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >Thanks.

> > > >

> > > > Probably OK. If you are sensitized to wheat, then oats may

> > > > be bad (because of contamination), but they seem to

> > > > be ok generally. The authors don't recommend them for

> > > > people with a known wheat sensitivity, but my own

> > > > research seems to indicate that oats have lots of good

> > > > stuff in them and not much bad stuff.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Heidi

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

Has anyone ever read the book Ten Thousand Years From Eden?

piimaman

[Guest guest]

Here's one link - http://familydoctor.org/handouts/236.html

another - http://cpmcnet.columbia.edu/dept/gi/celiac.html

About Flour is a page of useful information on various flours. Gluten

content of each is discussed. Part of the Wild Oats site.

http://www.wildoats.com/wild_cuisine/bulk_foods/bulk_flour.html

for more gluten free links - http://www.panix.com/~donwiss/gflinks/#foodsci

hope this helps

Dedy

----- Original Message -----

From: " tomsnames " <tomsnames@...>

< >

Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 1:40 PM

Subject: Re: Book: Dangerous Grains

> Do you have any sources? Last I read was that oats probably didn't

> have the alpha gliadian portion and that celiacs did not react to

> oats and that a few more larger studies needed to be carried out to

> be sure. Anyone have any information about this or can point to a

> website with updated info?

>

> Thanks

>

>

>

>

> > > > >Hi. Are oats listed as a bad grain?

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >Thanks.

> > > >

> > > > Probably OK. If you are sensitized to wheat, then oats may

> > > > be bad (because of contamination), but they seem to

> > > > be ok generally. The authors don't recommend them for

> > > > people with a known wheat sensitivity, but my own

> > > > research seems to indicate that oats have lots of good

> > > > stuff in them and not much bad stuff.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Heidi

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

I have given up on grains because I too have allergic reactions.

However, a while back I began looking at the molds that grow on different

foods, and began to realize that it may be the molds not the foods I was

reacting to.

Nuts are the only food I have played around with, but by soaking them in

Citric acid powder (Vitamin C) for a minimum of 5 minutes (which kills this

mold) I can eat them again.

Since the grains are stored and these molds grow on them also, I am

wondering if soaking in C would make the same difference.

Anyone else ever tried this? Does this book address the molds on grains?

Kat

http://www.katking.com

----- Original Message -----

From: " Heidi Schuppenhauer " <heidis@...>

< >

Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 9:29 PM

Subject: Re: Re: Book: Dangerous Grains

> At 04:10 AM 9/10/2002 +0000, you wrote:

> >Hi. Are oats listed as a bad grain?

> >

> >

> >Thanks.

>

> Probably OK. If you are sensitized to wheat, then oats may

> be bad (because of contamination), but they seem to

> be ok generally. The authors don't recommend them for

> people with a known wheat sensitivity, but my own

> research seems to indicate that oats have lots of good

> stuff in them and not much bad stuff.

>

>

>

> Heidi

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Heidi,

Thanks for starting this thread, will have to add this book to my list.

What I'm wondering is does this book go into what happened from a historical

perspective. I mean, Price found a number of the indigenous isolated groups

of people very healthy and there diet did include grains of one type or

another. So do you think they were healthy in spite of their grain use as

opposed to because of properly prepared grain use?

--

[Guest guest]

At 04:46 AM 9/10/2002 +0000, you wrote:

>Thanks. Last I read on a celiac site 2 years ago was that they were

>unsure of oats. Have further testing with celiacs cleared oats?

I think the general consensus is:

1. Pure oats are OK.

2. All commercial oats they tested were contaminated.

If one could get hold of some " pure oats " (grow them yourself on land with

no wheat?)

they should be ok? The problem is an oat grain is exactly the same size as

a wheat grain so they can't separate them well, and the wheat sprouts

up with the oats.

The word " gluten " is ill-defined: it really means " all proteins in a

grain " . Corn

has gluten too, so does rice. But oat gluten doesn't have gliadin, which is the

usual culprit. It DOES have glutenin (I think that's it) which is possibly

problematic.

Heidi

[Guest guest]

Hi, where can I order that book?

Is the name Dangerous Grains?

Thank you,

piimaman

[Guest guest]

Hi All,

I would suspect that:

1) when our guts are functioning well (i.e., no antibiotic history, etc)

2) and we process and cook our grains well

(i.e. soaked or fermented)

. . . that sensitivity to grain is essentially nil.

Ken Morehead

Durham

In a message dated 9/10/02 1:52:35 PM, @... writes:

<< Hi Heidi,

Thanks for starting this thread, will have to add this book to my list.

What I'm wondering is does this book go into what happened from a historical

perspective. I mean, Price found a number of the indigenous isolated groups

of people very healthy and there diet did include grains of one type or

another. So do you think they were healthy in spite of their grain use as

opposed to because of properly prepared grain use?

-- >>

[Guest guest]

I have a friend who was a very respected ND (now retired).

Many years ago he told me he thought gluten intolerence was really related to

vaccinations. Since then there have been studies linking the gliadin with

autism etc,, in cconnectin with vaccinations.

I'm sensitive to wheat, but my kids can eat wheat and they were not

vaccinated. Their health is much better than mine as they've had no drugs,

grew up eating a whole foods diet, were breastfed etc.. I think that makes a

huge difference, but it's never to late to start taking care of yourself and

if one needs to stay away from wheat and gluten until their body repairs

itself, so be it.

I still really question if wheat should be a part in anyones diet from the

research I've done and based on how much better people feel when they cut it

out of their diets.

I just ordered the book and look forward to reading it.

piimaman

[Guest guest]

At 10:50 AM 9/10/2002 -0700, you wrote:

>Hi Heidi,

>Thanks for starting this thread, will have to add this book to my list.

>What I'm wondering is does this book go into what happened from a historical

>perspective. I mean, Price found a number of the indigenous isolated groups

>of people very healthy and there diet did include grains of one type or

>another. So do you think they were healthy in spite of their grain use as

>opposed to because of properly prepared grain use?

>--

It does go into the historical perspective, though they try to cover a lot of

ground in few words. It sounds like they HAVE read the NT perspective, and

probably Price, and they really like Loren Cordain. Their take is pretty much

Cordain's: when people started farming, they became less healthy, probably

because of phytates and gluten.

As for the healthy primatives: I still haven't heard of one of those tribes

that used WHEAT, which is the main topic of the book (they aren't really

anti-carb,

though they recommend a lower-carb diet). Millet, sorghum, rice, tapioca, oats,

and all the rest just don't have the same issues, except as they displace

healthier

foods.

Heidi Schuppenhauer

Cabrita Software

heidis@...

[Guest guest]

At 10:26 AM 9/10/2002 -0700, you wrote:

>Nuts are the only food I have played around with, but by soaking them in

>Citric acid powder (Vitamin C) for a minimum of 5 minutes (which kills this

>mold) I can eat them again.

>

>Since the grains are stored and these molds grow on them also, I am

>wondering if soaking in C would make the same difference.

>

>Anyone else ever tried this? Does this book address the molds on grains?

>

>Kat

I talked to a lady about soaking nuts: she soaked them in salt water then

dried them, and could eat them again. I don't think the nuts were

moldy though: there might be some minor yeast or something on

them. I think the tannins are an issue, or something else?

The book does talk about the issues with mold, primarily ergot.

Ergot affects the blood vessels in the brain, and counteracts

migraines. People get migraines FROM eating wheat: wheat seems

to affect the blood vessels in the brain. Whether this is from

residual ergot, or whether ergot picks up something in the wheat,

is an issue kind of up for grabs. They don't feel that ergot is

an issue in modern wheat though: there is a point though, that

it might be present in non-detectible quantities?

Heidi

[Guest guest]

Hi Heidi,

I have come to trust the work of Hulda (author of a Cure For All

Diseases), and she was the one who suggested who suggested the Vitamin C for

molds in foods. The foods specific she mentions are nuts, grains, beans,

rice, and surprisingly milk.

Ergot was one she has a whole chapter on as a problem, but I thought there

were others. Most of the molds she talks about are not visible nor can they

be smelled. I would be more specific, but I went to look for the book and

can't find it right now. But Dr. has a very strong view of how

destructive these molds are.

I wonder if the salt would as effectively kill the molds as the Vit C? It

would sure make things easier to just soak in salt and dry them.

I am low carbing right now so the nuts are the only foods I am concerned

about (all dairy I ferment). All I know is that soaking seems to make a big

difference in how I react to the nuts.

Kat

http://www.katking.com

----- Original Message -----

From: " Heidi Schuppenhauer " <heidis@...>

< >

Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 5:10 PM

Subject: Re: Re: Book: Dangerous Grains

> At 10:26 AM 9/10/2002 -0700, you wrote:

> >Nuts are the only food I have played around with, but by soaking them in

> >Citric acid powder (Vitamin C) for a minimum of 5 minutes (which kills

this

> >mold) I can eat them again.

> >

> >Since the grains are stored and these molds grow on them also, I am

> >wondering if soaking in C would make the same difference.

> >

> >Anyone else ever tried this? Does this book address the molds on grains?

> >

> >Kat

>

> I talked to a lady about soaking nuts: she soaked them in salt water then

> dried them, and could eat them again. I don't think the nuts were

> moldy though: there might be some minor yeast or something on

> them. I think the tannins are an issue, or something else?

>

> The book does talk about the issues with mold, primarily ergot.

> Ergot affects the blood vessels in the brain, and counteracts

> migraines. People get migraines FROM eating wheat: wheat seems

> to affect the blood vessels in the brain. Whether this is from

> residual ergot, or whether ergot picks up something in the wheat,

> is an issue kind of up for grabs. They don't feel that ergot is

> an issue in modern wheat though: there is a point though, that

> it might be present in non-detectible quantities?

>

>

> Heidi

[Guest guest]

--- In @y..., Heidi Schuppenhauer <heidis@t...>

wrote:

> Millet, sorghum, rice, tapioca, oats,

> and all the rest just don't have the same issues, except as they

displace

> healthier

> foods.

How does spelt figure in this? I think in NT it says spelt is a

pre-hybridization form of wheat - does it have the same issue as

regular wheat?

Aubin

[Guest guest]

I have trouble with most grains, including rice, but

have found quinoa to be do-able. Oats are a killer

even though I often try to make breakfast porridge in

hopes that my belly will oblige. Nope;-(

I know it's NT cheating, but has anyone tried French

Meadow sprouted wheat bread? I've been eating it for a

few months (every morning with eggs) and it's

wonderful!

Also, we've been buying Ezekial's sprouted multi grain

tortillas in bulk.

Apparently, if a grain is sprouted I can digest it

much easier than if it's soaked. Makes sense since

sprouting is as pre-digested as a grain can get (aside

from fermenting).

a

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Heidi wrote:

" As for the healthy primatives: I still haven't heard of one of those tribes

that used WHEAT, which is the main topic of the book (they aren't really

anti-carb,

though they recommend a lower-carb diet). Millet, sorghum, rice, tapioca,

oats,

and all the rest just don't have the same issues, except as they displace

healthier

foods. "

Yes, you're right about Price's study groups. The only grains I could find

mentioned were rye, oats, maize, millet. linga linga (I can't find what this

is) & Kaffir corn (a variety of sorghum)--no wheat, although Price himself

mentions using it, as a whole ground grain to replace refined white flour.

What about Spelt and Kamut, my understanding these are ancient ancestors of

wheat, do they share wheat's problems or is this something bred (excuse the

pun) into the grain later?

--

[Guest guest]

At 06:15 PM 9/10/2002 -0700, you wrote:

>Ergot was one she has a whole chapter on as a problem, but I thought there

>were others. Most of the molds she talks about are not visible nor can they

>be smelled. I would be more specific, but I went to look for the book and

>can't find it right now. But Dr. has a very strong view of how

>destructive these molds are.

I guess I'd want to see more detail and evidence of what she's talking

about. Plums (and most fruits) are covered in a thin layer of yeast,

which is natural, and there are probably slight bits of mold. But

not all molds are harmful: we breathe them all the time, and

I'm not convinced that Vitamin C kills all molds either. It might

do something else though that helps people, or deactivate

something, or who knows what. I do know people can have

allergies to just about anything, and molds are right up there,

but my experience with allergies is that they aren't deactivated

all that easily!

On the other hand, a kid came over that was

allergic to my cat, and his Mom said to give him 500 mg of

vitamin C. Worked like a charm. But the issue wasn't mold,

it was cat dander, and *ingesting* the vitamin C was what

kept him from reacting. So I'm pretty convinced vitamin C

keeps some people from reacting to some allergens, but

heck if I know why.

Are there studies etc. she quotes? The gluten issue has been studied

for 20 years, it's not a new thing, and there are good lab studies.

Has she done such studies on mold? Has anyone else? If so I'd

love to read them!

Heidi