Re: Steffanson and Eskimo longevity

[Guest guest]

I found the eskimo information interesting and i am glad this is a group

that can challenge information. I too wondered about living conditions and

other factors that contribute to deaths-- drownings, exposure, polar bear

attacks even?

This is totally unscientific, but very interesting. As you know, WP found

very healthy people in Switzerland. My husband and i were at a small tavern

near Luzerne one evening. The walls were covered with pictures of men,

probably former patrons, with their birth and death dates under each

picture. All were born in the 1800s and all but a very few died in their 80s

and 90s. That spoke a great deal to me.

Elaine

[Guest guest]

>>> He was able to get statistics for the

Unalaska district of the Aleutians for the period of 1822-36 inclusive. The

following numbers died:

-------->wow, marla, thanks for writing that all out - fascinating

information! i have two comments:

1) ancel keys has been found to selectively present information that

supports his point. he did just this to promote the myth that cholesterol

causes heart disease by selectively presenting epidemiological information

that supported his premise, when the totality of the information (including

that which he did not present) conflicted with his premise. Therefore, i'm

cautious about taking information from him at face value. he's what dr. mike

might refer to as " intellectually dishonest. " (i thought you might be

interested to know that)

2) second thing is, i was struck by how many young people died (including

babies and children), and it made me think that when *their* deaths are

*averaged* in, it probably brings the lifespan *average* WAY down. i'm just

wondering if anyone's basing their claim that eskimos are short-lived on

*averages*, and if so, this would be very skewed due to the infant/mortality

rate alone. just something to consider.

i don't have an agenda to prove eskimos were long lived. they live(d) in an

extremely harsh environment, and i'm actually a bit surprised that some make

to 80, 90 or 100 at all!

i do think it would be fascinating to have statistics like these for ALL of

price's groups. although, i'm not sure if the numbers would have much

relevance to those of us living in a completely different environment, a

different lifestyle, with different food sources today. maybe...but it would

still be interesting information nonetheless.

Suze Fisher

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/19/02 8:08:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

s.fisher22@... writes:

> i don't have an agenda to prove eskimos were long lived. they live(d) in an

> extremely harsh environment, and i'm actually a bit surprised that some

make

> to 80, 90 or 100 at all!

not to mention they had a bad problem with alcohol. i'm not sure when this

started, but when the russian missionaries were christianizing them, they did

a lot of offering " separations " to married couples because of domestic abuse

associated with this problem.

chris

____

" What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a

heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and

animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of

them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense

compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to

bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature.

Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the

truth, and for those who do them wrong. "

--Saint Isaac the Syrian

[Guest guest]

At 06:58 PM 9/19/02 -0400, you wrote:

>In a message dated 9/19/02 8:08:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

>s.fisher22@... writes:

>

>> i don't have an agenda to prove eskimos were long lived. they live(d) in an

>>  extremely harsh environment, and i'm actually a bit surprised that some

>make

>>  to 80, 90 or 100 at all!

>

>not to mention they had a bad problem with alcohol.  i'm not sure when this

>started, but when the russian missionaries were christianizing them, they

did

>a lot of offering " separations " to married couples because of domestic abuse

>associated with this problem.

>

>chris

Actually alcohol was a European weapon against the tribes of North

America along with disease and guns. Believe it or not the man most

responsible

for using it as a weapon was Lord Amherst. The man the town you go to

college in was named for. A recent newspaper article said he never was in the

town. Historically though he was the man that passed on to other military

leaders that when the smallpox blankets were all gone that alcohol would put

the " savages " under control. I've seen excerpts of a letter he wrote to the

military leader who destroyed the Pontiac tribe in the Great Lakes area.

Amherst had a name change under consideration last year but found it too

troublesome to do. At least its recognized.

There must have been some none Russian missionaries that brought alcohol.

Alcohol is a problem in Russia too. Most Russians are shortly removed from

living from the land. As most people in northern latitudes are the most

carniverous alcohol would be the most destructive of introductions as it is at

the top of the glycemic index. They'd never had large amounts of sugar.

Wanita

[Guest guest]

Allright then, I don't know too much of the history of the area. I don't

think we compare the relations between the W. Europeans and Eastern natives

with the relationship between the Russians and the NW natives, though, but it

does seem to make sense that the alcohol could come from Russia. That would

surprise me very much if the missionaries brought it over, though, but

considering the proximity of Alaska to Russia . . .

Chris

In a message dated 9/19/02 7:44:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

wanitawa@... writes:

> Actually alcohol was a European weapon against the tribes of North

> America along with disease and guns. Believe it or not the man most

> responsible

> for using it as a weapon was Lord Amherst. The man the town you go

> to

> college in was named for. A recent newspaper article said he never was in

> the

> town. Historically though he was the man that passed on to other military

> leaders that when the smallpox blankets were all gone that alcohol would

put

> the " savages " under control. I've seen excerpts of a letter he wrote to the

> military leader who destroyed the Pontiac tribe in the Great Lakes area.

> Amherst had a name change under consideration last year but found it too

> troublesome to do. At least its recognized.

> There must have been some none Russian missionaries that brought alcohol.

> Alcohol is a problem in Russia too. Most Russians are shortly removed from

> living from the land. As most people in northern latitudes are the most

> carniverous alcohol would be the most destructive of introductions as it

is

> at

> the top of the glycemic index. They'd never had large amounts of sugar.

____

" What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a

heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and

animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of

them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense

compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to

bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature.

Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the

truth, and for those who do them wrong. "

--Saint Isaac the Syrian

[Guest guest]

Hi

Didn't mean to make you feel uninformed. There are people who have lived in

this area their entire lives and don't know the history. The commonality

though

it seems is that along with explorers, missionaries and the foods that are

brought is alcohol too. Currently the Aborigines of Australia are experiencing

the same alcohol and domestic abuse you talked of  with the Eskimos. Its a

tearing up within that makes it easier to get the outside control.

Wanita

At 10:14 AM 9/20/02 -0400, you wrote:

>Allright then, I don't know too much of the history of the area.  I don't

>think we compare the relations between the W. Europeans and Eastern natives

>with the relationship between the Russians and the NW natives, though, but

it

>does seem to make sense that the alcohol could come from Russia.   That

would

>surprise me very much if the missionaries brought it over, though, but

>considering the proximity of Alaska to Russia . . .

>

>Chris

>

>In a message dated 9/19/02 7:44:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

>wanitawa@... writes:

>

>> Actually alcohol was a European weapon against the tribes of North

>>  America along with disease and guns. Believe it or not the man most

>>  responsible

>>  for using it as a weapon was Lord Amherst. The man the town you

go

>> to

>>  college in was named for. A recent newspaper article said he never was in

>> the

>>  town. Historically though he was the man that passed on to other military

>>  leaders that when the smallpox blankets were all gone that alcohol would

>put

>>  the " savages " under control. I've seen excerpts of a letter he wrote to

the

>>  military leader who destroyed the Pontiac tribe in the Great Lakes area.

>>  Amherst had a name change under consideration last year but found it too

>>  troublesome to do. At least its recognized.

>>  There must have been some none Russian missionaries that brought alcohol.

>>  Alcohol is a problem in Russia too. Most Russians are shortly removed from

>>  living from the land. As most people in northern latitudes are the most

>>  carniverous alcohol would be the most destructive of introductions as it

>is

>> at

>>  the top of the glycemic index. They'd never had large amounts of sugar.

>

>

>____

>

> " What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion?  It is a

>heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and

>animals, for serpents and for demons.  The thought of them and the sight of

>them make the tears of the saint flow.  And this immense and intense

>compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to

>bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature. 

>Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the

>truth, and for those who do them wrong. "

>

>--Saint Isaac the Syrian

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I just wanted to give a little more update on Stefansson's book that I find

really interesting. Chapter 12 of his book is called The Tropical Life of

the Polar Eskimos. Stefansson writes that observation can never be quite

the same as experience, so he writes of his experience living with the

Eskimos. (It appears he lived a total of eleven years with the Eskimos). In

brief, the Eskimos were usually very warm to a point of profuse sweating.

Here's are a couple excerpts:

" In the North Dakota of my youth I was used to shivering at 40 degrees below

in a 40-pound wool-and-buffalo coat outfit if I sat still in it out-of-doors

for a half hour. Now, in the arctic Mackenzie delta, I find myself in a

7-pound caribou-skin Eskimo outfit, sitting nearly motionless on a block of

hard snow for hours without the slightest tendency to shiver. Of course I

make the usual European mistake, crediting the marvelous caribou skin

material of my suit with my warmth and comfort. Only gradually through

years did I shed this belief. Eventually, by the time I had published

several volumes about the Arctic, I came to realize that the truly marvelous

thing about Eskimo clothes is not material but engineering-the same

principle being applied to Eskimo garments as to Eskimo houses. "

" When I was new in this house, I at first thought it insufferably hot at my

shoulder level on the bed platform. The Eskimos sympathized with me, for

they supposed whites to have certain physiological peculiarities, one of

them inability to stand extremes of either heat or cold. They considerately

explained to me that I could cool off by lying flat on the plank floor.

This I did and estimated the temperature at 50 degrees F. After a few days

I came to realize that sweating is not unpleasant when you are practically

naked, as we were. In a few weeks I had proved to myself that my physiology

was as well heat-controlled as that of the Eskimos. My trouble had been

mental. I had been brought up with the wrong sort of taboos and with

handicapping beliefs. "

It turns out the Eskimos were frequently warm and daily sweat profusely

which in turn cause them to get very thirsty and drink lots of water . . .

ice water and eat shaved ice. Now here I was thinking drinking cold water

was a no no. Ha! The inside of their winter homes would range from temps

of 70 degrees to 100 degrees. Stefansson wrote that he had read in books

that " Eskimos eat the whole animal, " but he saw nothing of that whether they

were fish eaters or caribou eaters. Eskimos usually gave the dog teams the

entrails and whatever the family didn't like so well. Also, the Eskimos did

do *some* cooking, usually boiling, but still a bit rare and never

overcooked. All the meals were served with a bowl of beluga whale oil or

seal oil. or a bit of polar bear fat.

I'm really enjoying this book, but wanted to mention the above because the

book is basically dealing with cancer and it's relation to civilization, but

mentions that there is possibly more than just diet involved with regards to

immunity to diseases. Evidently, it was becoming common knowledge that

primitive peoples were not inflicted with degenerative disease such a

cancers, diabetes, arthritis, constipation, etc. (Apparently, they found

the first documented case of cancer in a native Eskimo in 1933 which by this

time they had been using imported foods.) Sailors and missionaries were

often sent and inquired of as to the health of the natives. One common

aspect Stefansson and some of his colleges were considering was temperature.

In addition to good diets, the natives were usually warm and sweat a lot.

This was true in Africa, the South Sea Islands, and Alaska, all of which

exhibited immunity to many disease. At one point, before the Eskimo

population was devasted by measles and tuberculosis, they even had club

houses or bath houses. It was easy for the doctors to examine the Eskimos

because they liked going to the doctors and because they frequently wore

little clothing in the bath houses. Occasionally they would see breast

cancer in a white person, but not one in an Eskimo, not even crusty nipples.

As far a cooking, there were actually some groups that cooked practically

all their meat except some dried fish. I believe these were the Forest

Indians who were even horrified to see the rare roast beef of the English.

Ha! But, again, they did not overcook and left some pink inside. These

Forest Indians were also very healthy.

One last comment, although the Eskimos were pretty immune to many diseases

they did have one problem that was noted by Dr. Hutton on page 18 of

his Health Conditions and Disease Incidence among the Eskimos of Labrador.

(1925)

" Perhaps the most striking of the peculiarities of the Eskimo constitution

is the great tendency to hemorrhage. . . young and old alike are subject to

nose-bleeding, and these sometimes continue for as much as three days and

reduce the patient to a condition of collapse. " Dr. Hutton says that

menorrhagia and haemoptysis are also common.

Hope that was as interesting to you as it was for me! )

Marla

P.S. So far, Stefansson has not mentioned anything about alcohol although

he did mention that they smoked some Chinese stuff. . .

P.P.S. He also mentioned that the missionaries tried to stave off

Europeanization but was only able to slow it down by a few generations.

Among the first subversive influences, tending toward eventual dependence on

the white man, was the fact that the Eskimos contracted first the tobacco

habit and then the tea habit. Thereafter followed gradually the use of

bread, salt, and sugar.

----- Original Message -----

From: Wanita Sears <wanitawa@...>

Hi

Didn't mean to make you feel uninformed. There are people who have lived in

this area their entire lives and don't know the history. The commonality

though

it seems is that along with explorers, missionaries and the foods that are

brought is alcohol too. Currently the Aborigines of Australia are

experiencing

the same alcohol and domestic abuse you talked of with the Eskimos. Its a

tearing up within that makes it easier to get the outside control.

Wanita

At 10:14 AM 9/20/02 -0400, you wrote:

>Allright then, I don't know too much of the history of the area. I don't

>think we compare the relations between the W. Europeans and Eastern natives

>with the relationship between the Russians and the NW natives, though, but

it

>does seem to make sense that the alcohol could come from Russia. That

would

>surprise me very much if the missionaries brought it over, though, but

>considering the proximity of Alaska to Russia . . .

>

>Chris

>

>In a message dated 9/19/02 7:44:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

>wanitawa@... writes:

>

>> Actually alcohol was a European weapon against the tribes of North

>> America along with disease and guns. Believe it or not the man most

>> responsible

>> for using it as a weapon was Lord Amherst. The man the town you

go

>> to

>> college in was named for. A recent newspaper article said he never was in

>> the

>> town. Historically though he was the man that passed on to other military

>> leaders that when the smallpox blankets were all gone that alcohol would

>put

>> the " savages " under control. I've seen excerpts of a letter he wrote to

the

>> military leader who destroyed the Pontiac tribe in the Great Lakes area.

>> Amherst had a name change under consideration last year but found it too

>> troublesome to do. At least its recognized.

>> There must have been some none Russian missionaries that brought alcohol.

>> Alcohol is a problem in Russia too. Most Russians are shortly removed

from

>> living from the land. As most people in northern latitudes are the most

>> carniverous alcohol would be the most destructive of introductions as it

>is

>> at

>> the top of the glycemic index. They'd never had large amounts of sugar.

>

>

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

From: Suze Fisher <s.fisher22@...>

>

> i do think it would be fascinating to have statistics like these for ALL

of

> price's groups. although, i'm not sure if the numbers would have much

> relevance to those of us living in a completely different environment, a

> different lifestyle, with different food sources today. maybe...but it

would

> still be interesting information nonetheless.

>

### I was thinking the same thing. Even though it may not apply to our

lives now, it is good to know what the possibility is. It also helps us

make better decisions regarding how to handle our lives. I, for one, have

been very ignorantly reckless with my health for many years and have since

learned that some things *can* be controlled to a certain extent

Marla

[Guest guest]

I've been wondering about the tobacco use since reading another Steffanson

piece online as they taught their children to use it like they compared it to

Steffanson's want for salt I wonder how long they had used tobacco. All

Canadian and North American tribes have used and still use tobacco at least

ceremonially. It is a part of their culture, yet it cannot be grown in polar

regions. So my question is if children were taught of tobacco was it really a

recent addition or had it been received in trade for many years with more

southern tribes? Doesn't fit with the information given in what I read and in

comparison to tobacco's use among tribes.

From what I understand it is common for just about all northern latitude

tribes

to have some form of sweating to cleanse and heal through the winter months.

Hygienic as well as toxin freeing. Think the sauna is just a take off of

native

Swedish sweats.

I'm recalling too that alcohol came to the Arctic Eskimos very recently along

with workers to extract some natural resource from their land. Also read too

that their women's breast milk now has extremely high levels of dioxins and

that a man hired by Canada for NAFTA monitoring had found through a machine he

invented the exact factories in the upper Midwest and Mexico that produced

that

mix of dioxins. IIRC global warming is settling such at the poles. Also am

remembering the Labrador Eskimos (whose death rates by age was in another

post)

were found somewhere else in my reading to have some food or nutrient

different

or lacking that was detrimental to their health in comparison to Eskimos in

other locations.

Wanita

At 03:30 PM 9/21/02 -0700, Marla wrote:

>I just wanted to give a little more update on Stefansson's book that I find

>really interesting.  Chapter 12 of his book is called The Tropical Life of

>the Polar Eskimos.

One common

>aspect Stefansson and some of his colleges were considering was temperature.

>In addition to good diets, the natives were usually warm and sweat a lot.

>P.S.  So far, Stefansson has not mentioned anything about alcohol although

>he did mention that they smoked some Chinese stuff. . .

>

>P.P.S.  He also mentioned that the missionaries tried to stave off

>Europeanization but was only able to slow it down by a few generations.

>Among the first subversive influences, tending toward eventual dependence on

>the white man, was the fact that the Eskimos contracted first the tobacco

>habit and then the tea habit.  Thereafter followed gradually the use of

>bread, salt, and sugar.