Guest guest Posted February 29, 2004 Report Share Posted February 29, 2004 The vegetarian propaganda? You mean that it was vegetarians who tried to bring Atkins into disrepute? Well, it could be. But not all vegetarians are into propaganda or fighting Atkins. I've been a vegetarian for 30 years - a natural one, in that I really can't stand meat, but I'm not trying to convert the world. I believe in being fair to Atkins - even though his diet is not for me because of it being high in meat. I know lots of people who lost weight on that diet but it's not for me. I think it's good that Atkins showed up the low-fat myths and made people more open to fat. As a vegetarian and especially since changing to coconut oil I feel the arguments are far heavier against my choice than for it. Bruce Fife, Enig, Sally Fallon, Barry Groves - all people who i respect and follow in other respects - are all FOR meat eating. In fact, I feel slightly under attack, and don't really understand why they they are so militant about it - I've never noticed any huge movement towards vegetarianism, people like meat far to much for that to be the case! We really are still a tiny minority and it can be a real problem in daily life. Recently I was at a conference on Guadeloupe where there were several Indians, who were strict vegetarians. Now I do eat fish, but they didn't, the worse for them. They would be given a small salad for an appetuiser and a large salad for the main course - each and every day. The poor things - especially since one of them hated salad!. They never got to eat properly; and it;s like that in many places, which is really a pity because there are so many healthy, whole and delicuious meals yoyu can cook withiout meat. (I just got back from India so I know!) As for any kind of deficiencies - I never worried about it, and haven't noticed anything. I don't need anyone to tell me if it's healthier to eat meat or avoid it.. I know that for me, it's better not to. The last time I ate meat was on a ship going up the amazon, when there was just meat for every meal and little else. At the end of the 10 days I felt terrible - sluggish and heavy. The I went to stay with a vegetarian friend in Lima and imediately everything changed. I never ate meat again and never missed it - but I don't make a big deal out of it. I cook chicken for my kids and steak for my husband. My feeling is, as long as you want it, you need it. Sharon M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 29, 2004 Report Share Posted February 29, 2004 And even Dr. Atkins said that his diet was not for everyone. Judith Alta -----Original Message----- The vegetarian propaganda? You mean that it was vegetarians who tried to bring Atkins into disrepute? Well, it could be. But not all vegetarians are into propaganda or fighting Atkins. I've been a vegetarian for 30 years - a natural one, in that I really can't stand meat, but I'm not trying to convert the world. I believe in being fair to Atkins - even though his diet is not for me because of it being high in meat. I know lots of people who lost weight on that diet but it's not for me. I think it's good that Atkins showed up the low-fat myths and made people more open to fat. As a vegetarian and especially since changing to coconut oil I feel the arguments are far heavier against my choice than for it. Bruce Fife, Enig, Sally Fallon, Barry Groves - all people who i respect and follow in other respects - are all FOR meat eating. In fact, I feel slightly under attack, and don't really understand why they they are so militant about it - I've never noticed any huge movement towards vegetarianism, people like meat far to much for that to be the case! We really are still a tiny minority and it can be a real problem in daily life. Recently I was at a conference on Guadeloupe where there were several Indians, who were strict vegetarians. Now I do eat fish, but they didn't, the worse for them. They would be given a small salad for an appetuiser and a large salad for the main course - each and every day. The poor things - especially since one of them hated salad!. They never got to eat properly; and it;s like that in many places, which is really a pity because there are so many healthy, whole and delicuious meals yoyu can cook withiout meat. (I just got back from India so I know!) As for any kind of deficiencies - I never worried about it, and haven't noticed anything. I don't need anyone to tell me if it's healthier to eat meat or avoid it.. I know that for me, it's better not to. The last time I ate meat was on a ship going up the amazon, when there was just meat for every meal and little else. At the end of the 10 days I felt terrible - sluggish and heavy. The I went to stay with a vegetarian friend in Lima and imediately everything changed. I never ate meat again and never missed it - but I don't make a big deal out of it. I cook chicken for my kids and steak for my husband. My feeling is, as long as you want it, you need it. Sharon M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 29, 2004 Report Share Posted February 29, 2004 It is propaganda! I'm sure Lorenzo is not talking " all " vegans but there are these people who called themselves the PRCM (Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine), a group that advocates vegetarianism stole confidential medical records of the late Dr. Atkins and then leaked the medical records to the Wall Street Journal in an attempt to prove that Dr. Atkins' low-carb diet was responsible for his massive girth. The media then had a field day of the rubbish. This just shows you what kind of people they are and that they'll do every dirty trick in the book to get you to stop eating meat. These animal-rights activists such as PETA and PRCM claim that low-carb, meat-heavy diets are killing people. These Vegans and animal-rights activists, for whom meat is as bad ideologically as they believe it is physically, the ever-rising profile of low-carb diets is a major public-relations setback for them. These people are seriously twisted! And I hope Mrs. Atkins pursues a law case against them. That's great if you feel good eating your way Sharon and I respect your rights... but these PETA people just can't leave us meat eaters alone. As well, Judith is absolutely right, Atkins is not for everyone The bashers can say all they want... All I have to do to know Atkins is for real is to look down... and see my feet instead of my big ol' belly. Keep healthy and be happy! Sharon R > The vegetarian propaganda? You mean that it was vegetarians who tried to > bring Atkins into disrepute? Well, it could be. But not all vegetarians are > into propaganda or fighting Atkins. I've been a vegetarian for 30 years - a > natural one, in that I really can't stand meat, but I'm not trying to > convert the world. I believe in being fair to Atkins - even though his diet > is not for me because of it being high in meat. I know lots of people who > lost weight on that diet but it's not for me. I think it's good that Atkins > showed up the low-fat myths and made people more open to fat. > > As a vegetarian and especially since changing to coconut oil I feel the > arguments are far heavier against my choice than for it. Bruce Fife, > Enig, Sally Fallon, Barry Groves - all people who i respect and follow in > other respects - are all FOR meat eating. In fact, I feel slightly under > attack, and don't really understand why they they are so militant about it - > I've never noticed any huge movement towards vegetarianism, people like meat > far to much for that to be the case! > We really are still a tiny minority and it can be a real problem in daily > life. Recently I was at a conference on Guadeloupe where there were several > Indians, who were strict vegetarians. Now I do eat fish, but they didn't, > the worse for them. They would be given a small salad for an appetuiser and > a large salad for the main course - each and every day. The poor things - > especially since one of them hated salad!. They never got to eat properly; > and it;s like that in many places, which is really a pity because there are > so many healthy, whole and delicuious meals yoyu can cook withiout meat. (I > just got back from India so I know!) As for any kind of deficiencies - I > never worried about it, and haven't noticed anything. > > I don't need anyone to tell me if it's healthier to eat meat or avoid it.. I > know that for me, it's better not to. The last time I ate meat was on a ship > going up the amazon, when there was just meat for every meal and little > else. At the end of the 10 days I felt terrible - sluggish and heavy. The I > went to stay with a vegetarian friend in Lima and imediately everything > changed. I never ate meat again and never missed it - but I don't make a big > deal out of it. I cook chicken for my kids and steak for my husband. My > feeling is, as long as you want it, you need it. > Sharon M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2004 Report Share Posted March 1, 2004 Sorry vegetarians, I did not mean to infer that Real Vegans published this article. The reference is as Sharon R. has pointed out. There are a few organizations that are out to smear others and they are a discredit to " Real " Vegetarians. In my opinion Vegans can be quite healthy if they avoid sugars and flours and eat only moderate amounts of cooked root vegetables and take supplements to make up for the essential items missing in their chosen diet. I feel that the India phenomena is correct. In India vegans get vitamins from tiny insects on the veggies. In England where crops are sprayed with insecticide they can suffer from lack of some B vitamins. Also our ancestors over millions of years developed our digestive system eating a wide diet of whatever was available, including meat and especially fish. Now those who live on grain based diets and more recently high sugar diets do not do well, they suffer from Diabetes, Heart Failure and Cancer, while the primitive cultures that We have been able to observe do not die of these ailments. " >It is propaganda! I'm sure Lorenzo is not talking " all " vegans but there are these people who called themselves the PRCM (Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine), a group that advocates vegetarianism stole confidential medical records of the late Dr. Atkins and then leaked the medical records to the Wall Street Journal in an attempt to prove that Dr. Atkins' low-carb diet was responsible for his massive girth. The media then had a field day of the rubbish.> " Interesting enough this Atkins type diet has been going on for over a hundred years. Do a search on the " Banting Diet " ! Best Regards, Lorenzo --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.601 / Virus Database: 382 - Release Date: 2/29/04 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2004 Report Share Posted March 1, 2004 Remember too, Lorenzo, that Indians are not vegans. Indian vegetarians eat milk products and eggs - in fact, milk products play an important part of their diet, as in ghee, curd, and fresh cheese. Also, the milk they use is unpasteurised. I've never met a militant, evangelising vegan/vegetarian and I am sorry they are giving us all a bad name. Sharon RE: Re: Atkins and vegetarianism Sorry vegetarians, I did not mean to infer that Real Vegans published this article. The reference is as Sharon R. has pointed out. There are a few organizations that are out to smear others and they are a discredit to " Real " Vegetarians. In my opinion Vegans can be quite healthy if they avoid sugars and flours and eat only moderate amounts of cooked root vegetables and take supplements to make up for the essential items missing in their chosen diet. I feel that the India phenomena is correct. In India vegans get vitamins from tiny insects on the veggies. In England where crops are sprayed with insecticide they can suffer from lack of some B vitamins. Also our ancestors over millions of years developed our digestive system eating a wide diet of whatever was available, including meat and especially fish. Now those who live on grain based diets and more recently high sugar diets do not do well, they suffer from Diabetes, Heart Failure and Cancer, while the primitive cultures that We have been able to observe do not die of these ailments. " >It is propaganda! I'm sure Lorenzo is not talking " all " vegans but there are these people who called themselves the PRCM (Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine), a group that advocates vegetarianism stole confidential medical records of the late Dr. Atkins and then leaked the medical records to the Wall Street Journal in an attempt to prove that Dr. Atkins' low-carb diet was responsible for his massive girth. The media then had a field day of the rubbish.> " Interesting enough this Atkins type diet has been going on for over a hundred years. Do a search on the " Banting Diet " ! Best Regards, Lorenzo --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.601 / Virus Database: 382 - Release Date: 2/29/04 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2004 Report Share Posted March 1, 2004 Sharon M, When I was frequenting the diet and nutrition forums the most vituperative posters were vegan/vegetarian. They reminded me of religions - some try to force their ways on others and others just live and let live. I have nothing against people like Sharon M who choose to not eat meat because it disagrees with them. My quarrel is with those who say that ALL should eat no meat. If humans were not intended to eat meat why does it contain essential nutrients that can be found in useful form nowhere else? Sharon M, question: Do you eat eggs? Judith Alta -----Original Message----- From: Sharon M [mailto:smaas@...] Remember too, Lorenzo, that Indians are not vegans. Indian vegetarians eat milk products and eggs - in fact, milk products play an important part of their diet, as in ghee, curd, and fresh cheese. Also, the milk they use is unpasteurised. I've never met a militant, evangelising vegan/vegetarian and I am sorry they are giving us all a bad name. Sharon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2004 Report Share Posted March 1, 2004 Yes; I eat eggs, milk and milk products; I also love fish and occasionally eat (gasp) chicken. But mostly not, the only chicken I ever liked in the last 30 years was some organic stuff my friend bought in a an American Whole foods store last year. My daughter is the same. She will only eat organic chicken now. Sharon M RE: Re: Atkins and vegetarianism Sharon M, When I was frequenting the diet and nutrition forums the most vituperative posters were vegan/vegetarian. They reminded me of religions - some try to force their ways on others and others just live and let live. I have nothing against people like Sharon M who choose to not eat meat because it disagrees with them. My quarrel is with those who say that ALL should eat no meat. If humans were not intended to eat meat why does it contain essential nutrients that can be found in useful form nowhere else? Sharon M, question: Do you eat eggs? Judith Alta -----Original Message----- From: Sharon M [mailto:smaas@...] Remember too, Lorenzo, that Indians are not vegans. Indian vegetarians eat milk products and eggs - in fact, milk products play an important part of their diet, as in ghee, curd, and fresh cheese. Also, the milk they use is unpasteurised. I've never met a militant, evangelising vegan/vegetarian and I am sorry they are giving us all a bad name. Sharon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2004 Report Share Posted March 1, 2004 Sharon M, That's good. As far as I know eggs will supply you with most the stuff you would get from beef, including B-12. I've always felt that, along with the low-fat diet the ban on eating eggs was a huge disservice. From the very beginning I maintained, and still do, that when animals quit eating animals I will quit eating animals. Very seldom do I eat chicken. We got " chickened out " in the early days of our marriage when we could buy a 40# box of legs and thighs for $4.00. We ate an awful lot of chicken! To each his own. Enjoy! ;-) Judith Alta -----Original Message----- From: Sharon M [mailto:smaas@...] Yes; I eat eggs, milk and milk products; I also love fish and occasionally eat (gasp) chicken. But mostly not, the only chicken I ever liked in the last 30 years was some organic stuff my friend bought in a an American Whole foods store last year. My daughter is the same. She will only eat organic chicken now. Sharon M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2004 Report Share Posted March 1, 2004 If anyone has read the book, " Nutrition and Physical Degeneration " by Dr. Weston A. Price, you will see that throughout his travels, he did not see one purely vegetarian culture. That book is an excellent case for low-carb living, simply by following the basic intelligence of native diets; especially those native diets that result in the strongest, healthiest people. It is a big book and with a " scientific " tone to it, but it is worth taking the time to read it. What an education! Irene Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2004 Report Share Posted March 1, 2004 All I can say is is that I hace been perfectly healthy for the last 30 years, without red meat and only occasionally chicken or fish - apart from a slight overweight - nothing drastic, but which vanished when I changed oils (I used to use vegetable oils and soya till about a year ago.) The only thing needed was coconut oil. Recently my doctor had to give a medical report on my health and state what illnesses I have had in the last 10 years. All there was were a couple of warts! I am 52 years old. I eat by instinct - I never think about vitamins or worry if I'm getting enough of this or that nutrient. I believe the body takes care of itself if the mind stays healthy - and the latter was always my first priority. I practice hatha yoga and meditation (since I was 19) and believe that has and enormous influence. Might be unscientific but it works for me! I could not eat meat even if I wanted to. Salud! Sharon M Re: Atkins and vegetarianism If anyone has read the book, " Nutrition and Physical Degeneration " by Dr. Weston A. Price, you will see that throughout his travels, he did not see one purely vegetarian culture. That book is an excellent case for low-carb living, simply by following the basic intelligence of native diets; especially those native diets that result in the strongest, healthiest people. It is a big book and with a " scientific " tone to it, but it is worth taking the time to read it. What an education! Irene Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2004 Report Share Posted March 1, 2004 > All I can say is is that I hace been perfectly healthy for the last 30 years, without red meat and only occasionally chicken or fish - ((rest snipped))) Hi Sharon, I could echo your health experiences! I'm also 52, healthy, can't remember the last time I had even a cold, still have a healthy, functioning reproductive system (much to the chagrin of my 57-yo boyfriend, LOL!), no hot flashes, no night sweats, nothing. I also started losing weight after switching oils and use CO, butter, and some olive oil exclusively. I do watch my vitamin/mineral intake, however, especially if I'm not using organic products. The differenc between us is that I am a natural carnivore. While I juice, eat salads and other veggies every day, and eat fruit by the truckload, I do love and eat meat. Red, white, pink, swimming, flying, whatever. I would bet that our backgrounds (ancestors, etc.) would dictate what we crave. Or not. Irene constantly amazed at the diversity of the human animal :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2004 Report Share Posted March 1, 2004 Were Sharon M a Vegan, and consumed no animal products I’m sure her story would be quite different. Because she eats fish, chicken and eggs she is getting the nutrients that she needs. Enjoy! ;-) Judith Alta -----Original Message----- From: vegasrenie@... [mailto:vegasrenie@...] > All I can say is is that I hace been perfectly healthy for the last 30 years, without red meat and only occasionally chicken or fish - ((rest snipped))) Hi Sharon, I could echo your health experiences! I'm also 52, healthy, can't remember the last time I had even a cold, still have a healthy, functioning reproductive system (much to the chagrin of my 57-yo boyfriend, LOL!), no hot flashes, no night sweats, nothing. I also started losing weight after switching oils and use CO, butter, and some olive oil exclusively. I do watch my vitamin/mineral intake, however, especially if I'm not using organic products. The differenc between us is that I am a natural carnivore. While I juice, eat salads and other veggies every day, and eat fruit by the truckload, I do love and eat meat. Red, white, pink, swimming, flying, whatever. I would bet that our backgrounds (ancestors, etc.) would dictate what we crave. Or not. Irene constantly amazed at the diversity of the human animal :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2004 Report Share Posted March 1, 2004 I've also got a trouble-free reproductive history.... menopause set in a year ago without a hitch - not a single complaint; also, I never had any period pains or PMT/PMS, and had two fantastically easy births.. the second was a home birth, which took less than 45 minutes from start to finish! Judith, I eat fish, chicken and eggs so seldom that it hardly counts.... because my children don't like fish and complain that it smells up the house when I cook it, I only eat it when I eat out - in the last mionth that was twice, both times during flights. I haven't had chicken for a couple of months; and eggs at the most, once every two weeks. I do eat milk products daily, though. And heaps and heaps of fruit and vegetables. I am naturally low carb - though I grew up ina rice eating country I never ate it as a child, same with bread. At the most, whole wheat bread and brown rice. My good health I attribute mostly to yoga; it does amazing things to you ! And my diet is part of that, what you call in Yoga a sattvic diet. cheers Sharon M Re: Atkins and vegetarianism > All I can say is is that I hace been perfectly healthy for the last 30 years, without red meat and only occasionally chicken or fish - ((rest snipped))) Hi Sharon, I could echo your health experiences! I'm also 52, healthy, can't remember the last time I had even a cold, still have a healthy, functioning reproductive system (much to the chagrin of my 57-yo boyfriend, LOL!), no hot flashes, no night sweats, nothing. I also started losing weight after switching oils and use CO, butter, and some olive oil exclusively. I do watch my vitamin/mineral intake, however, especially if I'm not using organic products. The differenc between us is that I am a natural carnivore. While I juice, eat salads and other veggies every day, and eat fruit by the truckload, I do love and eat meat. Red, white, pink, swimming, flying, whatever. I would bet that our backgrounds (ancestors, etc.) would dictate what we crave. Or not. Irene constantly amazed at the diversity of the human animal :-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2004 Report Share Posted March 1, 2004 I know all about the Banting Diet Lorenzo, been studying and living the life of a Low Carber for quite a few years now. Your right the first low-carbohydrate diet book was written in 1863 by Banting and even at that time it was a controversy. However it was Dr. Harvey who prescribed this diet to him, so the credit should really go to Dr Harvey. Although I believe that this way of eating is historically important, I give Dr. Atkins my gratitude for bringing back the revolution; he was a physician whose earning should come from what he did. He has developed and updated his diet since the 70's, fought conventional health care and nutrition thinking for decades in order to pursue his vision, studied the science behind it and tested it on a large number of patients before presenting it to the public. Now a day, you'll find many popular low carb diet plans on bookshelves these days, The Zone, Protein Power, Carbohydrate Addicts, Sommer Sizing, South Beach, Schwarzbein, Life Without Bread, you name it, but the authors of these books don't seem to get the flack like Dr. Atkins does. Simple put a diet war! Sharon R who will be `banting' for the rest of her life > Interesting enough this Atkins type diet has been going on for over a > hundred years. Do a search on the " Banting Diet " ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2004 Report Share Posted March 1, 2004 Back in the 1970s, not too long after his first book came out, the US government did a review of “diet frauds.” But Atkins is the only one called to account. Anyone who has a copy of his “Diet Revolution” first book will find a transcript in the back. Some of the very first copies did not have it, but all the rest do. Very interesting. Last I knew some bookstores still have it. Some fad diet. A book in print for 30+ years! Judith Alta -----Original Message----- From: Sharon [mailto:crazymaisy_99@...] I know all about the Banting Diet Lorenzo, been studying and living the life of a Low Carber for quite a few years now. Your right the first low-carbohydrate diet book was written in 1863 by Banting and even at that time it was a controversy. However it was Dr. Harvey who prescribed this diet to him, so the credit should really go to Dr Harvey. Although I believe that this way of eating is historically important, I give Dr. Atkins my gratitude for bringing back the revolution; he was a physician whose earning should come from what he did. He has developed and updated his diet since the 70's, fought conventional health care and nutrition thinking for decades in order to pursue his vision, studied the science behind it and tested it on a large number of patients before presenting it to the public. Now a day, you'll find many popular low carb diet plans on bookshelves these days, The Zone, Protein Power, Carbohydrate Addicts, Sommer Sizing, South Beach, Schwarzbein, Life Without Bread, you name it, but the authors of these books don't seem to get the flack like Dr. Atkins does. Simple put a diet war! Sharon R who will be `banting' for the rest of her life Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 3, 2004 Report Share Posted March 3, 2004 >The vegetarian propaganda? You mean that it was vegetarians who tried to >bring Atkins into disrepute? Well, it could be. But not all vegetarians are >into propaganda or fighting Atkins. Of course not. This reference was to Physicians for Responsible Medicine, which promotes a vegetarian/vegan diet and they did not hesitate to use private information, leaked illegally, and twist it to their own ends to attack a dead man. Of course this does not say anything about the ethics of most vegetarians. It was this one group that took their lies to the press to try and smear Dr. Atkins when he couldn't defend himself. I think Atkins, his widow, is not to be trifled with, however, and will help set the record straight. I don't totally agree with the Atkins diet either but I think he did a lot of things right and helped to break the grip of the high carb/low fat movement and steered people away from sugar and bad oils. He is also seldom credited for also urging the consumption of nonstarchy greens and other low-starch vegetables. I am a former vegetarian myself. I understand the appeal, but for me at least it was deadly wrong. Anyone wondering about these issues would do well to read " Traditional Food is Your Best Medicine " and " Nutrition and Physical Degeneration " and of course " Nourishing Traditions " . " The Metabolic Typing Diet " also shows how we're not all cut out for the same diet. Regards, Jeanmarie > I've been a vegetarian for 30 years - a >natural one, in that I really can't stand meat, but I'm not trying to >convert the world. I believe in being fair to Atkins - even though his diet >is not for me because of it being high in meat. I know lots of people who >lost weight on that diet but it's not for me. I think it's good that Atkins >showed up the low-fat myths and made people more open to fat. > >As a vegetarian and especially since changing to coconut oil I feel the >arguments are far heavier against my choice than for it. Bruce Fife, >Enig, Sally Fallon, Barry Groves - all people who i respect and follow in >other respects - are all FOR meat eating. In fact, I feel slightly under >attack, and don't really understand why they they are so militant about it - >I've never noticed any huge movement towards vegetarianism, people like meat >far to much for that to be the case! > We really are still a tiny minority and it can be a real problem in daily >life. Recently I was at a conference on Guadeloupe where there were several >Indians, who were strict vegetarians. Now I do eat fish, but they didn't, >the worse for them. They would be given a small salad for an appetuiser and >a large salad for the main course - each and every day. The poor things - >especially since one of them hated salad!. They never got to eat properly; >and it;s like that in many places, which is really a pity because there are >so many healthy, whole and delicuious meals yoyu can cook withiout meat. (I >just got back from India so I know!) As for any kind of deficiencies - I >never worried about it, and haven't noticed anything. > >I don't need anyone to tell me if it's healthier to eat meat or avoid it.. I >know that for me, it's better not to. The last time I ate meat was on a ship >going up the amazon, when there was just meat for every meal and little >else. At the end of the 10 days I felt terrible - sluggish and heavy. The I >went to stay with a vegetarian friend in Lima and imediately everything >changed. I never ate meat again and never missed it - but I don't make a big >deal out of it. I cook chicken for my kids and steak for my husband. My >feeling is, as long as you want it, you need it. >Sharon M > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 3, 2004 Report Share Posted March 3, 2004 > We really are still a tiny minority and it can be a real problem in daily >life. Recently I was at a conference on Guadeloupe where there were several >Indians, who were strict vegetarians. Now I do eat fish, but they didn't, >the worse for them. They would be given a small salad for an appetuiser and >a large salad for the main course - each and every day. The poor things - >especially since one of them hated salad!. They never got to eat properly; >and it;s like that in many places, which is really a pity because there are >so many healthy, whole and delicuious meals yoyu can cook withiout meat. (I >just got back from India so I know!) As for any kind of deficiencies - I >never worried about it, and haven't noticed anything. Deficiencies in nutrients provided mainly through animal foods won't show up overnight. You really should read the books I suggested in the last post, especially Traditional Foods Are Your Best Medicine. It is based on the work of Weston Price (author of Nutrition and Physical Degeneration) and adds insights from recent science to show that traditional societies from all parts of the world that ate whole foods and didn't suffer degenerative diseases to any great degree (dental problems, heart disease, cancer, etc.) were never entirely vegetarian, and the ones eating more animal food were the healthiest. It's very compelling evidence based on actual field research and examination of thousands of people around that world in the early 20th century and talking with physicians that treated them. The photographs and statistics are compelling. The health problems showed up in usually the next generation after people abandoned their native diets to consume a " modern, " Westernized diet of white sugar, flour, canned and processed foods. Another interesting source of information on vegetarianism is http://www.beyondveg.org, or Beyond Vegetarianism. It's very scholarly and is run by both vegetarians and former vegetarians. Worth looking into. It's not an all or nothing proposition. You may very well be best suited to a diet lower in animal protein than others, but it doesn't follow that you are best off with no animal products. I'm relieved to hear you're eating fish, although you do have to be careful about mercury contamination. There's always something! <g> Regards, Jeanmarie >I don't need anyone to tell me if it's healthier to eat meat or avoid it.. I >know that for me, it's better not to. The last time I ate meat was on a ship >going up the amazon, when there was just meat for every meal and little >else. At the end of the 10 days I felt terrible - sluggish and heavy. The I >went to stay with a vegetarian friend in Lima and imediately everything >changed. I never ate meat again and never missed it - but I don't make a big >deal out of it. I cook chicken for my kids and steak for my husband. My >feeling is, as long as you want it, you need it. >Sharon M > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 3, 2004 Report Share Posted March 3, 2004 (((most snipped))) > > A line I use in my classes is that 'the offspring of a native Hawaiian > married to a native Alaskan might well thrive on pineapple and blubber'. It > isn't as far fetched as it may sound. ROFLMAO!!! That's not too far from my situation, and would probably explain my leanings towards a more carnivorous diet as opposed to Sharon M's vegetarian preferences, even though the health results are very similar. Being a product of several mixed (very mixed, LOL) ethnicities, sometimes pinpointing what's best can be a real, um, *chore*! Thanks for the insight! Irene Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 3, 2004 Report Share Posted March 3, 2004 Jeanmarie, I'll read the books at some time, but even while I recognise that many, if not most societies thrive on a meat diet, I know that it is not for me - and I don't believe it is going to show up in future generations. My children are particularly healthy, more so than other kids who always seem to be down with colds and allergies. I breast fed them both - my son for two years, my daughter for one year, while on a vegetarian diet, and they are both big for their ages, and have robust bodies. Neither of them were given meat in the first few years of life. Both have very healthy teeth, as well. I have bad teeth (from childhood) - and both my parents were meat eaters. And my husband is a meat eater and he has bad teeth, too. So the " bad teeth " gene overweighs with them, and still they have good teeth in spite of a meatless early start. As I mentioned befoe, the other cornerstone to my health is Yoga, and this cannot be ignored. I think if Dr Price had studied serious (as opposed to trendy!) practitioners of yoga he would also have found that their health is perfect, " despite " vegetarian diet. Yoga is far more than an exercize program; it effects and nourishes every single organ, every single cell of the body and optimizes both, as well as the nervous system, the glands, the blood and the spine. You are nourished in a different way; and detoxed as well. . Also, it coordinates mind body and spirit - mental health is a very important componant of whole yoga. There's a whole science to it and a deep ancient wisdom that I can't even begin to go into here. The website http://www.yoga-for-life.org/ touches on the subject but only in a very superficial way; there are a few books that explain the science behind it but I won't bother to recommend them here. As I said, if Dr Price had researched such people he would have seen that they have a degree of health that is far above that of the average meat-eating non-practitioner. I've experienced this first hand first of all at the age of 18 when I turned from a fat, sluggish, and deeply unhappy teenager into a slim vibrant and confident human in a matter of months if not weeks! I'm not trying to preach about it - I'm just saying that there are many ways of achieving perfect health, and diet is only a part of the whole picture. cheers, Sharon M PS. I must say this forum is turning into a very active, lively place with some interesting discussions - a far cry from the other one! Thanks again, ! From: Jeanmarie Todd Coconut Oil Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 3:55 PM Subject: Re: Atkins and vegetarianism > We really are still a tiny minority and it can be a real problem in daily >life. Recently I was at a conference on Guadeloupe where there were several >Indians, who were strict vegetarians. Now I do eat fish, but they didn't, >the worse for them. They would be given a small salad for an appetuiser and >a large salad for the main course - each and every day. The poor things - >especially since one of them hated salad!. They never got to eat properly; >and it;s like that in many places, which is really a pity because there are >so many healthy, whole and delicuious meals yoyu can cook withiout meat. (I >just got back from India so I know!) As for any kind of deficiencies - I >never worried about it, and haven't noticed anything. Deficiencies in nutrients provided mainly through animal foods won't show up overnight. You really should read the books I suggested in the last post, especially Traditional Foods Are Your Best Medicine. It is based on the work of Weston Price (author of Nutrition and Physical Degeneration) and adds insights from recent science to show that traditional societies from all parts of the world that ate whole foods and didn't suffer degenerative diseases to any great degree (dental problems, heart disease, cancer, etc.) were never entirely vegetarian, and the ones eating more animal food were the healthiest. It's very compelling evidence based on actual field research and examination of thousands of people around that world in the early 20th century and talking with physicians that treated them. The photographs and statistics are compelling. The health problems showed up in usually the next generation after people abandoned their native diets to consume a " modern, " Westernized diet of white sugar, flour, canned and processed foods. Another interesting source of information on vegetarianism is http://www.beyondveg.org, or Beyond Vegetarianism. It's very scholarly and is run by both vegetarians and former vegetarians. Worth looking into. It's not an all or nothing proposition. You may very well be best suited to a diet lower in animal protein than others, but it doesn't follow that you are best off with no animal products. I'm relieved to hear you're eating fish, although you do have to be careful about mercury contamination. There's always something! <g> Regards, Jeanmarie >I don't need anyone to tell me if it's healthier to eat meat or avoid it.. I >know that for me, it's better not to. The last time I ate meat was on a ship >going up the amazon, when there was just meat for every meal and little >else. At the end of the 10 days I felt terrible - sluggish and heavy. The I >went to stay with a vegetarian friend in Lima and imediately everything >changed. I never ate meat again and never missed it - but I don't make a big >deal out of it. I cook chicken for my kids and steak for my husband. My >feeling is, as long as you want it, you need it. >Sharon M > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 3, 2004 Report Share Posted March 3, 2004 Sorry - the yoga link I just gave isn't the right one. Try this: http://www.yoga-for-life.org/whyyoga.htm Re: Atkins and vegetarianism > We really are still a tiny minority and it can be a real problem in daily >life. Recently I was at a conference on Guadeloupe where there were several >Indians, who were strict vegetarians. Now I do eat fish, but they didn't, >the worse for them. They would be given a small salad for an appetuiser and >a large salad for the main course - each and every day. The poor things - >especially since one of them hated salad!. They never got to eat properly; >and it;s like that in many places, which is really a pity because there are >so many healthy, whole and delicuious meals yoyu can cook withiout meat. (I >just got back from India so I know!) As for any kind of deficiencies - I >never worried about it, and haven't noticed anything. Deficiencies in nutrients provided mainly through animal foods won't show up overnight. You really should read the books I suggested in the last post, especially Traditional Foods Are Your Best Medicine. It is based on the work of Weston Price (author of Nutrition and Physical Degeneration) and adds insights from recent science to show that traditional societies from all parts of the world that ate whole foods and didn't suffer degenerative diseases to any great degree (dental problems, heart disease, cancer, etc.) were never entirely vegetarian, and the ones eating more animal food were the healthiest. It's very compelling evidence based on actual field research and examination of thousands of people around that world in the early 20th century and talking with physicians that treated them. The photographs and statistics are compelling. The health problems showed up in usually the next generation after people abandoned their native diets to consume a " modern, " Westernized diet of white sugar, flour, canned and processed foods. Another interesting source of information on vegetarianism is http://www.beyondveg.org, or Beyond Vegetarianism. It's very scholarly and is run by both vegetarians and former vegetarians. Worth looking into. It's not an all or nothing proposition. You may very well be best suited to a diet lower in animal protein than others, but it doesn't follow that you are best off with no animal products. I'm relieved to hear you're eating fish, although you do have to be careful about mercury contamination. There's always something! <g> Regards, Jeanmarie >I don't need anyone to tell me if it's healthier to eat meat or avoid it.. I >know that for me, it's better not to. The last time I ate meat was on a ship >going up the amazon, when there was just meat for every meal and little >else. At the end of the 10 days I felt terrible - sluggish and heavy. The I >went to stay with a vegetarian friend in Lima and imediately everything >changed. I never ate meat again and never missed it - but I don't make a big >deal out of it. I cook chicken for my kids and steak for my husband. My >feeling is, as long as you want it, you need it. >Sharon M > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 3, 2004 Report Share Posted March 3, 2004 The key foods in causing the problems Dr. Price found are the processed carbs that were available in his day. The things made with much sugar, white flour and hydrogenated oils. I doubt very much, if you are nutrition oriented, that you eat, or ate, very many such foods. Judith Alta -----Original Message----- From: Sharon M [mailto:smaas@...] Jeanmarie, I'll read the books at some time, but even while I recognise that many, if not most societies thrive on a meat diet, I know that it is not for me - and I don't believe it is going to show up in future generations. My children are particularly healthy, more so than other kids who always seem to be down with colds and allergies. I breast fed them both - my son for two years, my daughter for one year, while on a vegetarian diet, and they are both big for their ages, and have robust bodies. Neither of them were given meat in the first few years of life. Both have very healthy teeth, as well. I have bad teeth (from childhood) - and both my parents were meat eaters. And my husband is a meat eater and he has bad teeth, too. So the " bad teeth " gene overweighs with them, and still they have good teeth in spite of a meatless early start. As I mentioned befoe, the other cornerstone to my health is Yoga, and this cannot be ignored. I think if Dr Price had studied serious (as opposed to trendy!) practitioners of yoga he would also have found that their health is perfect, " despite " vegetarian diet. Yoga is far more than an exercize program; it effects and nourishes every single organ, every single cell of the body and optimizes both, as well as the nervous system, the glands, the blood and the spine. You are nourished in a different way; and detoxed as well. . Also, it coordinates mind body and spirit - mental health is a very important componant of whole yoga. There's a whole science to it and a deep ancient wisdom that I can't even begin to go into here. The website http://www.yoga-for-life.org/ touches on the subject but only in a very superficial way; there are a few books that explain the science behind it but I won't bother to recommend them here. As I said, if Dr Price had researched such people he would have seen that they have a degree of health that is far above that of the average meat-eating non-practitioner. I've experienced this first hand first of all at the age of 18 when I turned from a fat, sluggish, and deeply unhappy teenager into a slim vibrant and confident human in a matter of months if not weeks! I'm not trying to preach about it - I'm just saying that there are many ways of achieving perfect health, and diet is only a part of the whole picture. cheers, Sharon M PS. I must say this forum is turning into a very active, lively place with some interesting discussions - a far cry from the other one! Thanks again, ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 3, 2004 Report Share Posted March 3, 2004 He called them " the displacing foods of modern commerce. " Which, of course, have nothing to do with actual nutrition. Keeps the body from dying outright, but doesn't keep it healthy. Slow starvation. Irene > The key foods in causing the problems Dr. Price found are the processed carbs that were available in his day. The things made with > much sugar, white flour and hydrogenated oils. > > I doubt very much, if you are nutrition oriented, that you eat, or ate, very many such foods. > > Judith Alta > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sharon M [mailto:smaas@b...] > > > Jeanmarie, > I'll read the books at some time, but even while I recognise that many, if not most societies thrive on a meat diet, I know that it > is not for me - and I don't believe it is going to show up in future generations. My children are particularly healthy, more so than > other kids who always seem to be down with colds and allergies. I breast fed them both - my son for two years, my daughter for one > year, while on a vegetarian diet, and they are both big for their ages, and have robust bodies. Neither of them were given meat in > the first few years of life. Both have very healthy teeth, as well. I have bad teeth (from childhood) - and both my parents were > meat eaters. And my husband is a meat eater and he has bad teeth, too. So the " bad teeth " gene overweighs with them, and still they > have good teeth in spite of a meatless early start. > > As I mentioned befoe, the other cornerstone to my health is Yoga, and this cannot be ignored. I think if Dr Price had studied > serious (as opposed to trendy!) practitioners of yoga he would also have found that their health is perfect, " despite " vegetarian > diet. Yoga is far more than an exercize program; it effects and nourishes every single organ, every single cell of the body and > optimizes both, as well as the nervous system, the glands, the blood and the spine. You are nourished in a different way; and > detoxed as well. . Also, it coordinates mind body and spirit - mental health is a very important componant of whole yoga. There's a > whole science to it and a deep ancient wisdom that I can't even begin to go into here. The website http://www.yoga-for-life.org/ > touches on the subject but only in a very superficial way; there are a few books that explain the science behind it but I won't > bother to recommend them here. > As I said, if Dr Price had researched such people he would have seen that they have a degree of health that is far above that of > the average meat-eating non-practitioner. I've experienced this first hand first of all at the age of 18 when I turned from a fat, > sluggish, and deeply unhappy teenager into a slim vibrant and confident human in a matter of months if not weeks! I'm not trying > to preach about it - I'm just saying that there are many ways of achieving perfect health, and diet is only a part of the whole > picture. > cheers, > Sharon M > PS. I must say this forum is turning into a very active, lively place with some interesting discussions - a far cry from the other > one! Thanks again, ! > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 3, 2004 Report Share Posted March 3, 2004 So true. I’m in the process of taking his book off the internet. Eighteen chapters, one at a time and because I’m doing it in Adobe InDesign desktop publisher I have to download all the photos separately. So, I’m not taking much time to read it. Anyone who skims through this book and only looks at the photos and reads the captions should be put off “the displacing foods of modern commerce” for life. Judith Alta -----Original Message----- From: vegasrenie@... [mailto:vegasrenie@...] He called them " the displacing foods of modern commerce. " Which, of course, have nothing to do with actual nutrition. Keeps the body from dying outright, but doesn't keep it healthy. Slow starvation. Irene Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 3, 2004 Report Share Posted March 3, 2004 Maybe I should state that I’m taking Weston A. Price’s book off the internet. Judith Alta -----Original Message----- From: Judith Alta K [mailto:jaltak@...] So true. I’m in the process of taking his book off the internet. Eighteen chapters, one at a time and because I’m doing it in Adobe InDesign desktop publisher I have to download all the photos separately. So, I’m not taking much time to read it. Anyone who skims through this book and only looks at the photos and reads the captions should be put off “the displacing foods of modern commerce” for life. Judith Alta -----Original Message----- From: vegasrenie@... [mailto:vegasrenie@...] He called them " the displacing foods of modern commerce. " Which, of course, have nothing to do with actual nutrition. Keeps the body from dying outright, but doesn't keep it healthy. Slow starvation. Irene Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 3, 2004 Report Share Posted March 3, 2004 At 05:33 PM 3/3/2004 -0500, Judith Alta K wrote: >PS. I must say this forum is turning into a very active, lively place with >some interesting discussions - a far cry from the other >one! Thanks again, ! Are you referring to coconut-info? hehehe, no comment! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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