RE: Alobar/dr. Bruce Fife/ Duncan - here it is again said differently

[Guest guest]

Be nice if the references were posted here, instead of just statements

with no references.

Alobar

On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 5:56 PM, Chantelle <bornfrueh@...> wrote:

> They very much have references and footnotes, etc.

> chantelle

>

>

> On 12/17/08 4:13 PM, " Alobar " <Alobar@...> wrote:

>

>>

>>

>>

>> Doesn't Bruce Fife give references to his statements? Without

>> references, the statement below is just a conjecture. We all make

>> conjectures all the time. But I can say that what I believe to be

>> probably true changes over time as my personal experiments provide me

>> with more (sometimes contradictory) data.

>>

>> If Dr.Fife writes books with no footnotes or references to research, I

>> don't see why people bother reading them.

>>

>> Alobar

[Guest guest]

Everyone:

Dr. Fife does have medical references for just about everything but everyone

has opinions and what he said about Sterols is just a known fact.

Bonnie

_____

From: Coconut Oil

[mailto:Coconut Oil ] On Behalf Of Alobar

Sent: December 17, 2008 7:00 PM

Coconut Oil

Subject: Re: Alobar/dr. Bruce Fife/ Duncan - here

it is again said differently

Be nice if the references were posted here, instead of just statements

with no references.

Alobar

On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 5:56 PM, Chantelle <bornfruehcox (DOT)

<mailto:bornfrueh%40cox.net> net> wrote:

> They very much have references and footnotes, etc.

> chantelle

>

>

> On 12/17/08 4:13 PM, " Alobar " <AlobarGmail (DOT) <mailto:Alobar%40Gmail.com>

com> wrote:

>

>>

>>

>>

>> Doesn't Bruce Fife give references to his statements? Without

>> references, the statement below is just a conjecture. We all make

>> conjectures all the time. But I can say that what I believe to be

>> probably true changes over time as my personal experiments provide me

>> with more (sometimes contradictory) data.

>>

>> If Dr.Fife writes books with no footnotes or references to research, I

>> don't see why people bother reading them.

>>

>> Alobar

[Guest guest]

If there are no references, it is not a known fact. It is conjecture.

Alobar

On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 1:22 PM, Bonnie Cole <bonnieview@...> wrote:

> Everyone:

>

> Dr. Fife does have medical references for just about everything but everyone

> has opinions and what he said about Sterols is just a known fact.

>

> Bonnie

>

> _____

>

> From: Coconut Oil

> [mailto:Coconut Oil ] On Behalf Of Alobar

> Sent: December 17, 2008 7:00 PM

> Coconut Oil

> Subject: Re: Alobar/dr. Bruce Fife/ Duncan - here

> it is again said differently

>

>

>

> Be nice if the references were posted here, instead of just statements

> with no references.

>

> Alobar

>

> On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 5:56 PM, Chantelle <bornfruehcox (DOT)

> <mailto:bornfrueh%40cox.net> net> wrote:

>> They very much have references and footnotes, etc.

>> chantelle

>>

>>

>> On 12/17/08 4:13 PM, " Alobar " <AlobarGmail (DOT) <mailto:Alobar%40Gmail.com>

> com> wrote:

>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> Doesn't Bruce Fife give references to his statements? Without

>>> references, the statement below is just a conjecture. We all make

>>> conjectures all the time. But I can say that what I believe to be

>>> probably true changes over time as my personal experiments provide me

>>> with more (sometimes contradictory) data.

>>>

>>> If Dr.Fife writes books with no footnotes or references to research, I

>>> don't see why people bother reading them.

>>>

>>> Alobar

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

This is an interesting topic to me, so I dug.

From Textbook of Cardiovascular Medicine By J. Topol, M.

Califf, N Prystowsky, D

http://tinyurl.com/49rqtw

" Plant sterol and stanol esters compete with dietary cholesterol for

absorbtion via mixed micelles. Usually, only a small amount of plant

sterols and even less of plant stanols are absorbed. "

According to this abstract,

Estimation of Sterols in Edible Fats and Oils

http://www.pjbs.org/pjnonline/fin121.pdf

coconut oil is estimated to have .8mg of sterols per gram, which would

mean in one tablespoon of CO, you'd get approximately 11.388mg of

sterols. If you're taking 3 tablespoons per day, you'd get roughly

34.164mg of sterols.

Since sterols have to compete with other stuff to get absorbed, one

would prolly need a whole bunch more of it to make any real kind of

difference where hormones are concerned.

Unless I totally botched the math on that.

-vanessa

.... I dunno. Dr. D, any ideas?

[Guest guest]

I think there are some exceptions. Like if the fact came from Dr. Fife's

professional practice. For example I can describe how to set up a production

facility for virgin coconut oil, but I cannot cite a published reference because

the knowledge (not conjecture) came from personal experience. Sometimes it is

also impractical to cite a published reference. Like during my engineering

education years ago I read a book that says all limestone deposits including

those on the highest mountains all came from the sea. But I dont have time to

find that book again so that I can cite it as reference. Just some exceptions, I

think.

Tony

From: Alobar <Alobar@...>

If there are no references, it is not a known fact. It is

conjecture.

[Guest guest]

Yes, but if someone asked you for a reference about limestone, you

could look it up on google.

In the early part of the last century, " everybody knew " that pellegra

was contagious. The scientific community held that pellagra was

probably caused by a germ or some unknown toxin in corn.

By 1926, Goldberger established that a balanced diet or a small amount

of brewer's yeast[9] prevented pellagra. Skepticism nonetheless

persisted in the medical community until 1937

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pellagra

So what " everybody knows " is not necessarily correct. And that is

why I want to see details of why someone believes what they believe.

Alobar

On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 5:50 AM, AGPacific Nutriceutical

<agnutriceutical@...> wrote:

> I think there are some exceptions. Like if the fact came from Dr. Fife's

professional practice. For example I can describe how to set up a production

facility for virgin coconut oil, but I cannot cite a published reference because

the knowledge (not conjecture) came from personal experience. Sometimes it is

also impractical to cite a published reference. Like during my engineering

education years ago I read a book that says all limestone deposits including

those on the highest mountains all came from the sea. But I dont have time to

find that book again so that I can cite it as reference. Just some exceptions, I

think.

>

> Tony

>

[Guest guest]

Anyone can wait for all the references they want.

If I have pellegra and someone says I should take

a B Vitamin for it, then I will take a B-Vitamin

even if I know it is conjecture. Why would I do

such a thing? Because I know a B-Vitamin

cannot hurt me. It might not work but I know it

is not toxic and is health giving in other ways.

Why is a published reference so important for

every little thing? And anyway, how do I know

it isn't a botched study or yet another conjecture

or opinion on the part of the author of the

reference.

You won't see me waiting for references or studies.

If it is relatively easy to find I might take a look at

it but if the suggestion merits consideration and

the product is not dangerous, I will proceed on

conjecture unless it's a pharmaceutical drug and

then I probably wouldn't believe anything about

it, not even the reference.

Helen

________________________________

From: Alobar <Alobar@...>

Coconut Oil

Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 4:06:47 AM

Subject: Re: Alobar/dr. Bruce Fife/ Duncan - here it is

again said differently

Yes, but if someone asked you for a reference about limestone, you

could look it up on google.

In the early part of the last century, " everybody knew " that pellegra

was contagious. The scientific community held that pellagra was

probably caused by a germ or some unknown toxin in corn.

By 1926, Goldberger established that a balanced diet or a small amount

of brewer's yeast[9] prevented pellagra. Skepticism nonetheless

persisted in the medical community until 1937

http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Pellagra

So what " everybody knows " is not necessarily correct. And that is

why I want to see details of why someone believes what they believe.

Alobar

On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 5:50 AM, AGPacific Nutriceutical

<agnutriceutical> wrote:

> I think there are some exceptions. Like if the fact came from Dr. Fife's

professional practice. For example I can describe how to set up a production

facility for virgin coconut oil, but I cannot cite a published reference because

the knowledge (not conjecture) came from personal experience. Sometimes it is

also impractical to cite a published reference. Like during my engineering

education years ago I read a book that says all limestone deposits including

those on the highest mountains all came from the sea. But I dont have time to

find that book again so that I can cite it as reference. Just some exceptions, I

think.

>

> Tony

>

[Guest guest]

I agree with Helen.  Pharmaceutical companies can afford to do all those very

expensive studies.  But . . . . do you believe their interpretation of the

results?  Statins are a good example - they tend to  do more harms than good. 

Think of the drugs that have been recalled by the FDA over safety issues that

had " good science " behind them. 

 

I believe that if you have an accumlation of antecdotal evidence and do due

diligence in your research then you are probably going to be on the right

tract..  I have been in the medical community for over 30 years and have seen

what was thought of as " undisputed, scientific proof " change to " oops, we've

changed our minds " usually due to new research.  And . . . the change has

usually been something the alternative community has been saying all along. 

Without the published studies to back them up - just common sense and antecdotal

evidence.

 

Lynda

Anyone can wait for all the references they want.

Helen

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[Guest guest]

So true, Lynda (and Helen). My Aunt believed it when her doctor told

her that Vioxx was " perfectly safe " and there were " tons of clinical

studies " . Then she had two strokes from taking it and is disabled

for life. My daughter suffered severe toxicity and brain injury in

utero (and is now autistic and non-verbal) because my doctor told me

that getting a mercury laden flu shot while pregnant was " perfectly

safe " . Now, of course, pregnant women are warned against flu

shots....a little too late for many.

On Dec 19, 2008, at 11:02 AM, Lynda Constantineau wrote:

> I agree with Helen. Pharmaceutical companies can afford to do all

> those very expensive studies. But . . . . do you believe their

> interpretation of the results? Statins are a good example - they

> tend to do more harms than good. Think of the drugs that have

> been recalled by the FDA over safety issues that had " good science "

> behind them.

>

> I believe that if you have an accumlation of antecdotal evidence

> and do due diligence in your research then you are probably going

> to be on the right tract.. I have been in the medical community

> for over 30 years and have seen what was thought of as " undisputed,

> scientific proof " change to " oops, we've changed our minds " usually

> due to new research. And . . . the change has usually been

> something the alternative community has been saying all along.

> Without the published studies to back them up - just common sense

> and antecdotal evidence.

>

> Lynda

>

[Guest guest]

If you take a vitamin for pellegra, it is because " what everybody

knew " was challenged via scientific studies. If you had pellegra

before that time, you would have gotten yourself treated for a

contageous disease using tocic chemiclas. That is why it is

important to back up statements with evidence.

Alobar

On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 8:32 AM, helen/zhebee <zhebee@...> wrote:

>

>

> Anyone can wait for all the references they want.

> If I have pellegra and someone says I should take

> a B Vitamin for it, then I will take a B-Vitamin

> even if I know it is conjecture. Why would I do

> such a thing? Because I know a B-Vitamin

> cannot hurt me. It might not work but I know it

> is not toxic and is health giving in other ways.

>

> Why is a published reference so important for

> every little thing? And anyway, how do I know

> it isn't a botched study or yet another conjecture

> or opinion on the part of the author of the

> reference.

>

> You won't see me waiting for references or studies.

> If it is relatively easy to find I might take a look at

> it but if the suggestion merits consideration and

> the product is not dangerous, I will proceed on

> conjecture unless it's a pharmaceutical drug and

> then I probably wouldn't believe anything about

> it, not even the reference.

>

> Helen

>

>

[Guest guest]

From: Alobar <Alobar@...>

So what " everybody knows " is not necessarily correct.

Yes, in the same way that what " everybody knows " is not necessarily conjecture. 

I like posting to this forum information (facts and/or qualified opinions) for

anyone's consideration. I would not appreciate it if what I posted is called

conjecture because I was unable to provide a published reference. Posting with

published reference is a high-quality post. But it does not necessarily make

posting without published reference a poor-quality one, IMO.

Tony

 

[Guest guest]

Alobar

I was talking about taking a harmless Vitamin

ir herb which I KNOW to be harmless. Many of

the things discussed on this board are harmless

nutritional supplements about which I already

know. If I wanted to use one of them, I would

not be asking for a pile of references.

If my condition got so bad that I would have to

consider a toxic chemical drug, then, of course,

I would want information and references but

knowing what I know today, I wouldn't trust

even them.

On the other hand, if my neighbor told me that

he had used a nutritional supplement, which I

knew to be harmless, for a similar condition I'd try

it without demanding a bunch of references. If

it didn't work, I would know it wouldn't hurt.

I was not talking about having pellegra " before

that time " . I didn't live in that time so how

could I speculate on that? In " that time " I may

have been illiterate and if not, there probably

were not the books and info that we have today.

How could I be talking about then? I am talking

about now. Yes, people get pellegra today, altho

very few. It may not even be diagnosed as such

since it may not a severe case but many do have

nutritional deficiencies today. Most diseases

today are nutritional deficiencies caused by

various things besides a poor diet. A body system

that is clogged with pathogens and acids is one

example. It may be getting all the nutrients a body

would need but cannot get to the cells because they

are clogged.

I think sometimes you would like us to post these

references and what you consider evidence. Don't

expect me to find them for you and post them here.

You can look for them yourself just as I would have

to do if it was important to me.

Helen

________________________________

From: Alobar <Alobar@...>

Coconut Oil

Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 3:14:27 PM

Subject: Re: Alobar/dr. Bruce Fife/ Duncan - here it is

again said differently

If you take a vitamin for pellegra, it is because " what everybody

knew " was challenged via scientific studies. If you had pellegra

before that time, you would have gotten yourself treated for a

contageous disease using tocic chemiclas. That is why it is

important to back up statements with evidence.

Alobar

On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 8:32 AM, helen/zhebee <zhebee (DOT) com> wrote:

>

>

> Anyone can wait for all the references they want.

> If I have pellegra and someone says I should take

> a B Vitamin for it, then I will take a B-Vitamin

> even if I know it is conjecture. Why would I do

> such a thing? Because I know a B-Vitamin

> cannot hurt me. It might not work but I know it

> is not toxic and is health giving in other ways.

>

> Why is a published reference so important for

> every little thing? And anyway, how do I know

> it isn't a botched study or yet another conjecture

> or opinion on the part of the author of the

> reference.

>

> You won't see me waiting for references or studies.

> If it is relatively easy to find I might take a look at

> it but if the suggestion merits consideration and

> the product is not dangerous, I will proceed on

> conjecture unless it's a pharmaceutical drug and

> then I probably wouldn't believe anything about

> it, not even the reference.

>

> Helen

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Tony

I agree.

I think Alobar wants us to post references

and evidence for him. I don't see him

providing 'evidence' for everything he posts.

Helen

________________________________

From: AGPacific Nutriceutical <agnutriceutical@...>

Coconut Oil

Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 1:48:11 AM

Subject: Re: Alobar/dr. Bruce Fife/ Duncan - here it is

again said differently

From: Alobar <AlobarGmail (DOT) com>

So what " everybody knows " is not necessarily correct.

Yes, in the same way that what " everybody knows " is not necessarily conjecture.

I like posting to this forum information (facts and/or qualified opinions) for

anyone's consideration. I would not appreciate it if what I posted is called

conjecture because I was unable to provide a published reference. Posting with

published reference is a high-quality post. But it does not necessarily make

posting without published reference a poor-quality one, IMO.

Tony

[Guest guest]

This whole discussion began with statements which, if true, would not

make coconut oil a harmless food.

To quote Duncan,

" Bonnie, the info I was looking for is some kind of documented proof

that coconut oil contains any hormone or other substance that may be

converted to pregnenolone. Feeling better with dietary change is not

proof of course so I asked where you got the proof for your statement.

I'd also like to know how this substance might satisfy the body's need

for pregnenolone because as far as I know that reaction is not

happening and VCO will not be able to convert to the hormones preg

converts to. "

What is being discussed is not a harmless vitamin, but a substance

which might possibly cause major changes in hormonal balance. And

that is why I ask for references.

Alobar

On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 9:09 PM, helen/zhebee <zhebee@...> wrote:

>

> Alobar

>

> I was talking about taking a harmless Vitamin

> ir herb which I KNOW to be harmless. Many of

> the things discussed on this board are harmless

> nutritional supplements about which I already

> know. If I wanted to use one of them, I would

> not be asking for a pile of references.

>

> If my condition got so bad that I would have to

> consider a toxic chemical drug, then, of course,

> I would want information and references but

> knowing what I know today, I wouldn't trust

> even them.

>

> On the other hand, if my neighbor told me that

> he had used a nutritional supplement, which I

> knew to be harmless, for a similar condition I'd try

> it without demanding a bunch of references. If

> it didn't work, I would know it wouldn't hurt.

>

> I was not talking about having pellegra " before

> that time " . I didn't live in that time so how

> could I speculate on that? In " that time " I may

> have been illiterate and if not, there probably

> were not the books and info that we have today.

> How could I be talking about then? I am talking

> about now. Yes, people get pellegra today, altho

> very few. It may not even be diagnosed as such

> since it may not a severe case but many do have

> nutritional deficiencies today. Most diseases

> today are nutritional deficiencies caused by

> various things besides a poor diet. A body system

> that is clogged with pathogens and acids is one

> example. It may be getting all the nutrients a body

> would need but cannot get to the cells because they

> are clogged.

>

> I think sometimes you would like us to post these

> references and what you consider evidence. Don't

> expect me to find them for you and post them here.

> You can look for them yourself just as I would have

> to do if it was important to me.

>

> Helen

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ________________________________

> From: Alobar <Alobar@...>

> Coconut Oil

> Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 3:14:27 PM

> Subject: Re: Alobar/dr. Bruce Fife/ Duncan - here it

is again said differently

>

>

> If you take a vitamin for pellegra, it is because " what everybody

> knew " was challenged via scientific studies. If you had pellegra

> before that time, you would have gotten yourself treated for a

> contageous disease using tocic chemiclas. That is why it is

> important to back up statements with evidence.

>

> Alobar

>

> On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 8:32 AM, helen/zhebee <zhebee (DOT) com> wrote:

>>

>>

>> Anyone can wait for all the references they want.

>> If I have pellegra and someone says I should take

>> a B Vitamin for it, then I will take a B-Vitamin

>> even if I know it is conjecture. Why would I do

>> such a thing? Because I know a B-Vitamin

>> cannot hurt me. It might not work but I know it

>> is not toxic and is health giving in other ways.

>>

>> Why is a published reference so important for

>> every little thing? And anyway, how do I know

>> it isn't a botched study or yet another conjecture

>> or opinion on the part of the author of the

>> reference.

>>

>> You won't see me waiting for references or studies.

>> If it is relatively easy to find I might take a look at

>> it but if the suggestion merits consideration and

>> the product is not dangerous, I will proceed on

>> conjecture unless it's a pharmaceutical drug and

>> then I probably wouldn't believe anything about

>> it, not even the reference.

>>

>> Helen

>>

>>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

When I post my personal experience, or conjecture, I label it as such.

If I post any statements which you feel need references, please ask

and I will provide references.

Alobar

On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 9:16 PM, helen/zhebee <zhebee@...> wrote:

>

> Hi Tony

>

> I agree.

>

> I think Alobar wants us to post references

> and evidence for him. I don't see him

> providing 'evidence' for everything he posts.

>

> Helen

>

>

[Guest guest]

I just feel that this forum will become limited if it becomes " itchy " on

published references. There is a huge wealth of real facts from many corners in

the communities of planet earth and from every person, that are unpublished.

Tony

From: Alobar <AlobarGmail (DOT) com>

So what " everybody knows " is not necessarily correct.

Yes, in the same way that what " everybody knows " is not necessarily conjecture.

I like posting to this forum information (facts and/or qualified opinions) for

anyone's consideration. I would not appreciate it if what I posted is called

conjecture because I was unable to provide a published reference. Posting with

published reference is a high-quality post. But it does not necessarily make

posting without published reference a poor-quality one, IMO.

Tony

[Guest guest]

It might be a known fact to you because YOU know it Bonnie, but I am

unconvinced without a reference. I mean, I've seen people miraculously

cured by a sugar cube, but I don't support the people who say " try

this cube, it'll cure you " .

Duncan

> >

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> Doesn't Bruce Fife give references to his statements? Without

> >> references, the statement below is just a conjecture. We all make

> >> conjectures all the time. But I can say that what I believe to be

> >> probably true changes over time as my personal experiments

provide me

> >> with more (sometimes contradictory) data.

> >>

> >> If Dr.Fife writes books with no footnotes or references to

research, I

> >> don't see why people bother reading them.

> >>

> >> Alobar

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> >>

> >>>

> >>>

> >>>

> >>> Doesn't Bruce Fife give references to his statements? Without

> >>> references, the statement below is just a conjecture. We all

make

> >>> conjectures all the time. But I can say that what I believe to

be

> >>> probably true changes over time as my personal experiments

provide me

> >>> with more (sometimes contradictory) data.

> >>>

> >>> If Dr.Fife writes books with no footnotes or references to

research, I

> >>> don't see why people bother reading them.

> >>>

> >>> Alobar

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

There you go on the sterols Bonnie; Thanks . That's a pretty

low amount in the coconut oil, low is common to many veggies and that

is why when someone needs sterols I suggest hops tea.

Duncan

>

> This is an interesting topic to me, so I dug.

>

> From Textbook of Cardiovascular Medicine By J. Topol, M.

> Califf, N Prystowsky, D

>

> http://tinyurl.com/49rqtw

>

> " Plant sterol and stanol esters compete with dietary cholesterol for

> absorbtion via mixed micelles. Usually, only a small amount of

plant

> sterols and even less of plant stanols are absorbed. "

>

> According to this abstract,

>

> Estimation of Sterols in Edible Fats and Oils

>

> http://www.pjbs.org/pjnonline/fin121.pdf

>

> coconut oil is estimated to have .8mg of sterols per gram, which

would

> mean in one tablespoon of CO, you'd get approximately 11.388mg of

> sterols. If you're taking 3 tablespoons per day, you'd get roughly

> 34.164mg of sterols.

>

> Since sterols have to compete with other stuff to get absorbed, one

> would prolly need a whole bunch more of it to make any real kind of

> difference where hormones are concerned.

>

> Unless I totally botched the math on that.

>

> -vanessa

>

> ... I dunno. Dr. D, any ideas?

>

[Guest guest]

Helen, the published reference in your hypothetical situation

contained the data that offered a way to cure your pellagra, while the

common " belief " that a germ caused it allowed many people to go

improperly treated. Without the DATA you wouldn't be cured because you

wouldn't have known of the yeast (b-vitamin reference) at all.

In your own example you needed the reference.

Duncan

to not have existed

> > I think there are some exceptions. Like if the fact came from Dr.

Fife's professional practice. For example I can describe how to set up

a production facility for virgin coconut oil, but I cannot cite a

published reference because the knowledge (not conjecture) came from

personal experience. Sometimes it is also impractical to cite a

published reference. Like during my engineering education years ago I

read a book that says all limestone deposits including those on the

highest mountains all came from the sea. But I dont have time to find

that book again so that I can cite it as reference. Just some

exceptions, I think.

> >

> > Tony

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I agree with ; last December I got my old editor off Lipitor when

all his hair started falling out. Turns out it's a main side effect,

like the sudden death due to cardiac arrest. His hair stopped falling

out in days

Duncan

>

> > I agree with Helen. Pharmaceutical companies can afford to do all

> > those very expensive studies. But . . . . do you believe their

> > interpretation of the results? Statins are a good example - they

> > tend to do more harms than good. Think of the drugs that have

> > been recalled by the FDA over safety issues that had " good

science "

> > behind them.

> >

> > I believe that if you have an accumlation of antecdotal evidence

> > and do due diligence in your research then you are probably going

> > to be on the right tract.. I have been in the medical community

> > for over 30 years and have seen what was thought of as

" undisputed,

> > scientific proof " change to " oops, we've changed our minds "

usually

> > due to new research. And . . . the change has usually been

> > something the alternative community has been saying all along.

> > Without the published studies to back them up - just common sense

> > and antecdotal evidence.

> >

> > Lynda

> >

>

[Guest guest]

At least we've found out thanks to that coconut oil contains

such low amounts of sterols that they are not likely to confer health

or disease. This falls in line with the amounts in other common foods.

The data also did not support Bonnie's contention that the sterols

that are present in low amounts are converted to pregnenolone in the

gut.

Duncan

> >>

> >>

> >> Anyone can wait for all the references they want.

> >> If I have pellegra and someone says I should take

> >> a B Vitamin for it, then I will take a B-Vitamin

> >> even if I know it is conjecture. Why would I do

> >> such a thing? Because I know a B-Vitamin

> >> cannot hurt me. It might not work but I know it

> >> is not toxic and is health giving in other ways.

> >>

> >> Why is a published reference so important for

> >> every little thing? And anyway, how do I know

> >> it isn't a botched study or yet another conjecture

> >> or opinion on the part of the author of the

> >> reference.

> >>

> >> You won't see me waiting for references or studies.

> >> If it is relatively easy to find I might take a look at

> >> it but if the suggestion merits consideration and

> >> the product is not dangerous, I will proceed on

> >> conjecture unless it's a pharmaceutical drug and

> >> then I probably wouldn't believe anything about

> >> it, not even the reference.

> >>

> >> Helen

> >>

> >>

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

You miss the point, Duncan. I am not arguing

what to do about Pellegra. I was using Pellegra

as an example.

I am saying IF someone tells me they used ANYthing

that I know to be harmless for ANY disease or ailment,

I would not be dismissing it (as Alobar often does to

us in this group) just because that person didn't give

me a " reference " or " evidence " .

Example:

I have breast cysts (I don't really but suppose I did)

My neighbor, " My aunt had breast cysts and got rid

of them by taking kelp tablets. "

Me, " Oh, really. Do you have a reference about this

kelp. Has there been any studies done? "

Neighbor, " Well, no, er .... "

Me, " Forget it then. "

Maybe I am exaggerating but you get the point.

The point is not the cysts nor the kelp. It's the

dismissal or refusal to learn from a neighbor

simply because he doesn't have " evidence " .

Helen

________________________________

From: Duncan Crow <duncancrow@...>

Coconut Oil

Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 6:56:37 AM

Subject: Re: Alobar/dr. Bruce Fife/ Duncan - here it is

again said differently

Helen, the published reference in your hypothetical situation

contained the data that offered a way to cure your pellagra, while the

common " belief " that a germ caused it allowed many people to go

improperly treated. Without the DATA you wouldn't be cured because you

wouldn't have known of the yeast (b-vitamin reference) at all.

In your own example you needed the reference.

Duncan

to not have existed

> > I think there are some exceptions. Like if the fact came from Dr.

Fife's professional practice. For example I can describe how to set up

a production facility for virgin coconut oil, but I cannot cite a

published reference because the knowledge (not conjecture) came from

personal experience. Sometimes it is also impractical to cite a

published reference. Like during my engineering education years ago I

read a book that says all limestone deposits including those on the

highest mountains all came from the sea. But I dont have time to find

that book again so that I can cite it as reference. Just some

exceptions, I think.

> >

> > Tony

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

By the way, I don't even know why I am

arguing this. Actually Alobar has a

right to references if he wishes but

he'll have to find them himself.

Helen

________________________________

From: helen/zhebee <zhebee@...>

Coconut Oil

Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 10:20:44 AM

Subject: Re: Re: Alobar/dr. Bruce Fife/ Duncan - here

it is again said differently

You miss the point, Duncan. I am not arguing

what to do about Pellegra. I was using Pellegra

as an example.

I am saying IF someone tells me they used ANYthing

that I know to be harmless for ANY disease or ailment,

I would not be dismissing it (as Alobar often does to

us in this group) just because that person didn't give

me a " reference " or " evidence " .

Example:

I have breast cysts (I don't really but suppose I did)

My neighbor, " My aunt had breast cysts and got rid

of them by taking kelp tablets. "

Me, " Oh, really. Do you have a reference about this

kelp. Has there been any studies done? "

Neighbor, " Well, no, er .... "

Me, " Forget it then. "

Maybe I am exaggerating but you get the point.

The point is not the cysts nor the kelp. It's the

dismissal or refusal to learn from a neighbor

simply because he doesn't have " evidence " .

Helen

____________ _________ _________ __

From: Duncan Crow <duncancrow (DOT) com>

coconut_oil_ open_forum

Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 6:56:37 AM

Subject: [coconut_oil_ open_forum] Re: Alobar/dr. Bruce Fife/ Duncan - here it

is again said differently

Helen, the published reference in your hypothetical situation

contained the data that offered a way to cure your pellagra, while the

common " belief " that a germ caused it allowed many people to go

improperly treated. Without the DATA you wouldn't be cured because you

wouldn't have known of the yeast (b-vitamin reference) at all.

In your own example you needed the reference.

Duncan

to not have existed

> > I think there are some exceptions. Like if the fact came from Dr.

Fife's professional practice. For example I can describe how to set up

a production facility for virgin coconut oil, but I cannot cite a

published reference because the knowledge (not conjecture) came from

personal experience. Sometimes it is also impractical to cite a

published reference. Like during my engineering education years ago I

read a book that says all limestone deposits including those on the

highest mountains all came from the sea. But I dont have time to find

that book again so that I can cite it as reference. Just some

exceptions, I think.

> >

> > Tony

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Helen; in this case though we DO have evidence and it seems to make

the statement, that useful amounts of hormone can be created from

coconut oil, into a myth.

My doctor agrees with using placebo for its usefulness. I have no

problem with that, but I note that when you need molecules, placebo

will not live up to that expectation. Another way to look at it is

that one might use the placebo, and exclude a real treatment, then

actually get worse because it has not addressed the deficiency or the

cure.

Duncan

> > > I think there are some exceptions. Like if the fact came from

Dr.

> Fife's professional practice. For example I can describe how to set

up

> a production facility for virgin coconut oil, but I cannot cite a

> published reference because the knowledge (not conjecture) came from

> personal experience. Sometimes it is also impractical to cite a

> published reference. Like during my engineering education years ago

I

> read a book that says all limestone deposits including those on the

> highest mountains all came from the sea. But I dont have time to

find

> that book again so that I can cite it as reference. Just some

> exceptions, I think.

> > >

> > > Tony

> > >

> >

> >

> >