Re: CR = 1800 Calories per Day???

[Guest guest]

1800 kcals is what I use as a guide to lose weight slowly.

regards

----- Original Message -----

From: Rodney

Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 1:37 PM

Subject: [ ] CR = 1800 Calories per Day???

Hi folks:Direct quote from the first line of the site link in Warren's most recent post: "Humanity's best bet for extreme lifespan extension is likely to be extreme calorie restriction. That means an average-size man living on about 1,800 calories a day."http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,62169,00.htmlDo those here who are now well established in CRON, with their biomarkers indicating it is working, agree with a number, for an average male, as high as 1800 calories as representing CRON? That is quite a bit higher than I would have expected.Rodney.

[Guest guest]

I'd bet the average American male takes in about 1,000 more Kcals/day than

that; so, yes, I'd agree 1,800 Kcal would probably work just fine.

>From: " Rodney " <perspect1111@...>

>Reply-

>

>Subject: [ ] CR = 1800 Calories per Day???

>Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 19:37:13 -0000

>

>Hi folks:

>

>Direct quote from the first line of the site link in Warren's most

>recent post: " Humanity's best bet for extreme lifespan extension is

>likely to be extreme calorie restriction. That means an average-size

>man living on about 1,800 calories a day. "

>

>http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,62169,00.html

>

>Do those here who are now well established in CRON, with their

>biomarkers indicating it is working, agree with a number, for an

>average male, as high as 1800 calories as representing CRON? That is

>quite a bit higher than I would have expected.

>

>Rodney.

>

[Guest guest]

--- In , " Rodney " <perspect1111@y...>

wrote:

> Hi folks:

>

> Direct quote from the first line of the site link in Warren's most

> recent post: " Humanity's best bet for extreme lifespan extension

is

> likely to be extreme calorie restriction. That means an average-

size

> man living on about 1,800 calories a day. "

>

> http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,62169,00.html

>

> Do those here who are now well established in CRON, with their

> biomarkers indicating it is working, agree with a number, for an

> average male, as high as 1800 calories as representing CRON? That

is

> quite a bit higher than I would have expected.

Yes.

Cheers, Al Pater.

[Guest guest]

At 7:41 PM +0000 3/2/04, old542000 wrote:

>--- In , " Rodney " <perspect1111@y...>

>wrote:

> > http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,62169,00.html

> >

> > Do those here who are now well established in CRON, with their

>> biomarkers indicating it is working, agree with a number, for an

> > average male,

What's an average male? 6' and 150 lbs?

>as high as 1800 calories as representing CRON? That

>is

>> quite a bit higher than I would have expected.

>

>Yes.

Most of the tables that list minimum daily calorie requirements say

that I need about 3000 calories per day in my relatively sedentary

weekday lifestyle. That would keep me just below 12% body fat at

around 180 lbs.

So, I aim for about 80% of that, or around 2,400 calories. My blood

work comes out excellent, I'm cold much of the time, and I haven't

had any of the common illnesses going around for over two years.

Twenty eight months ago I weighed just short of 270 at 6'1 " -- a BMI

of about 30.

I can't imagine descending into the 2,000 calorie per day range,

unless I was bed-ridden or something. My family is just starting to

get used to my comparatively scrawny figure.

[Guest guest]

Yer BMI is still relatively high for CR. If you got down to 145 lbs (BMI

about 19), then, perhaps, your caloric intake for maintenance might be

lower....

>From: Steve Sergeant <SteveSgt@...>

>Reply-

>

>Subject: [ ] Re: CR = 1800 Calories per Day???

>Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 11:59:42 -0800

>

>At 7:41 PM +0000 3/2/04, old542000 wrote:

> >--- In , " Rodney " <perspect1111@y...>

> >wrote:

> > > http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,62169,00.html

> > >

> > > Do those here who are now well established in CRON, with their

> >> biomarkers indicating it is working, agree with a number, for an

> > > average male,

>

>What's an average male? 6' and 150 lbs?

>

> >as high as 1800 calories as representing CRON? That

> >is

> >> quite a bit higher than I would have expected.

> >

> >Yes.

>

>Most of the tables that list minimum daily calorie requirements say

>that I need about 3000 calories per day in my relatively sedentary

>weekday lifestyle. That would keep me just below 12% body fat at

>around 180 lbs.

>

>So, I aim for about 80% of that, or around 2,400 calories. My blood

>work comes out excellent, I'm cold much of the time, and I haven't

>had any of the common illnesses going around for over two years.

>

>Twenty eight months ago I weighed just short of 270 at 6'1 " -- a BMI

>of about 30.

>

>I can't imagine descending into the 2,000 calorie per day range,

>unless I was bed-ridden or something. My family is just starting to

>get used to my comparatively scrawny figure.

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Steve:

Interesting post. Thanks. Can you please tell me how you determine

what your body fat will be at a given caloric intake? (You say that

for you 3000 calories a day would keep you around 12% body fat). I

am just itching to find out how many calories I will have to eat to

stabilize eventually at ~10% body fat.

Rodney.

--- In , Steve Sergeant <SteveSgt@e...>

wrote:

> Most of the tables that list minimum daily calorie requirements say

> that I need about 3000 calories per day in my relatively sedentary

> weekday lifestyle. That would keep me just below 12% body fat at

> around 180 lbs.

[Guest guest]

Rodney typed:

> Interesting post. Thanks. Can you please tell me how you determine

> what your body fat will be at a given caloric intake?

It's definitely an inexact estimate, based mostly on experience. It

certainly depends a lot on my exercise levels and the proportion of

calories from fat, carbs, and protein.

You might try the calorie requirement calculator at:

<http://www.exrx.net/Calculators/CalRequire.html>.

> (You say that

> for you 3000 calories a day would keep you around 12% body fat). I am

> just itching to find out how many calories I will have to eat to

> stabilize eventually at ~10% body fat.

Around Thanksgiving I had my BF% tested by both caliper and infrared

methods. The average of the two measurements was 12.4% -- at that time I

was 186 lbs. So I calculate that 10% BF happens for me at about 179

pounds.

(It's interesting that last spring, an infrared BF% measurement put me at

14% at 185 pounds.)

After two to three days of heavy exertion either backcountry skiing,

backpacking, or bicycle touring, my weight usually settles down to about

178 - 180. Assuming that I loose fat reserves and am not building

significant muscle on those trips, my guess is that I'm a little under 10%

BF at those times. On those trips I can eat as much as 4,000 calories a

day and not gain weight. (I read somewhere that cross-country skiing can

burn as much as 1,000 calories per hour. When I'm doing that for seven

hours a day I don't ever seem to be able to eat enough.)

I seem to plateau at about 178 or 180 really hard. If then I only eat one

750 calorie meal a day for two or three days (like when I accidentally ran

out of food on a backpacking trip), I'll be painfully cold in the warmest

weather (even in a 20°F sleeping bag when it's 50°F outside), and feel so

weak that I look almost drunk trying to walk. Even so, at least for three

to four days, my weight won't drop below that.

I'm sure I'm building muscle and loosing fat on those trips, but I don't

have a way to take regular BF% measurements.

I don't know if any of this information helps.

>

>

>

>> Most of the tables that list minimum daily calorie requirements say

>> that I need about 3000 calories per day in my relatively sedentary

>> weekday lifestyle. That would keep me just below 12% body fat at

>> around 180 lbs.

[Guest guest]

Something not quite so accurate about that estimate - not sure what it is, but I'd have to rest 18 hrs do very light 6 hrs to get 1816. Make it 8,8,8,0,0 and mine is 2690. Not a real number for me - I passed thru that 9 yrs ago on the way down to 1800.

Maybe some have higher BMR?

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Sergeant

Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 3:28 PM

Subject: Re: [ ] CR = 1800 Calories per Day???

Rodney typed:> Interesting post. Thanks. Can you please tell me how you determine> what your body fat will be at a given caloric intake?It's definitely an inexact estimate, based mostly on experience. Itcertainly depends a lot on my exercise levels and the proportion ofcalories from fat, carbs, and protein.You might try the calorie requirement calculator at:<http://www.exrx.net/Calculators/CalRequire.html>.

[Guest guest]

Remember that these estimates are NOT assuming CR. You have to reduce

these measurements by some amount -- at least 15%, or as much as 35% for

the fanatic fringe.

So if your calculation gives you 2690 for a normal day, then cutting 20%

from that gives you 2152 for 20% CR.

If your estimate of your activity is actually correct (and most people

tend to way over-estimate their physical activity in a day), then at 1800

calories you're already running an extreme CR regimen of perhaps 33%.

jwwright typed:

> Something not quite so accurate about that estimate - not sure what it

> is, but I'd have to rest 18 hrs do very light 6 hrs to get 1816. Make it

> 8,8,8,0,0 and mine is 2690. Not a real number for me - I passed thru

> that 9 yrs ago on the way down to 1800. Maybe some have higher BMR?

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: Steve Sergeant

>

> Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 3:28 PM

> Subject: Re: [ ] CR = 1800 Calories per Day???

[Deletia]

> You might try the calorie requirement calculator at:

> <http://www.exrx.net/Calculators/CalRequire.html>.

[Guest guest]

Hi Jw:

Someone needs to come up with an equation that considers age, height,

weight, wrist circumference, navel level circumference, flexed

bicep/thigh circumferences, body temperature, activity, and no doubt

others ............. to get really reliable data for calorie

consumption.

But for me, since I have been counting this stuff lately, 1800 a day

seems to be about ad lib. That may not continue, of course. And it

does not include the occasional binge at the local chinese hostelry,

which would raise the average a bit.

Rodney

Thanks for that link, Steve.

--- In , " jwwright " <jwwright@e...>

wrote:

> Something not quite so accurate about that estimate - not sure what

it is, but I'd have to rest 18 hrs do very light 6 hrs to get 1816.

Make it 8,8,8,0,0 and mine is 2690. Not a real number for me - I

passed thru that 9 yrs ago on the way down to 1800.

> Maybe some have higher BMR?

>

> Regards.

>

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: Steve Sergeant

>

> Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 3:28 PM

> Subject: Re: [ ] CR = 1800 Calories per Day???

>

>

> Rodney typed:

> > Interesting post. Thanks. Can you please tell me how you

determine

> > what your body fat will be at a given caloric intake?

>

> It's definitely an inexact estimate, based mostly on experience.

It

> certainly depends a lot on my exercise levels and the proportion

of

> calories from fat, carbs, and protein.

>

> You might try the calorie requirement calculator at:

> <http://www.exrx.net/Calculators/CalRequire.html>.

[Guest guest]

I got this from somewhere - one of the CR groups, I think:

bmr=13.7*wt(kg) + 5*ht(cm) - 6.8*age + 66

bmr=13.7*170/2.2 + 5*69*2.54 - 6.8*68+66

bmr=

1538

Add a WAG of 300 kcals = 1838. It seems close for me to hold weight.

I have a feeling it's going to vary a lot between people.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: Rodney

Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 4:35 PM

Subject: [ ] Re: CR = 1800 Calories per Day???

Hi Jw:Someone needs to come up with an equation that considers age, height, weight, wrist circumference, navel level circumference, flexed bicep/thigh circumferences, body temperature, activity, and no doubt others ............. to get really reliable data for calorie consumption.But for me, since I have been counting this stuff lately, 1800 a day seems to be about ad lib. That may not continue, of course. And it does not include the occasional binge at the local chinese hostelry, which would raise the average a bit. RodneyThanks for that link, Steve.> Something not quite so accurate about that estimate - not sure what it is, but I'd have to rest 18 hrs do very light 6 hrs to get 1816. Make it 8,8,8,0,0 and mine is 2690. Not a real number for me - I passed thru that 9 yrs ago on the way down to 1800.> Maybe some have higher BMR?> > Regards. > >

[Guest guest]

Hi Jw:

Those numbers make a lot of sense to me. But does 170 pounds at 5'

9 " represent CRON?

In other words, if you dropped your caloric intake to 1400 or 1500

for sake of example, would your weight not stabilize at a lower, more

CRON-like, level?

Do you have some idea of what your BF% is? If you BF% is ten or

below, then I guess it does represent CRON. But for me at 169 lbs,

5' 10.4 " and BF% estimated at a little over 20, I am quite sure I am

nowhere close to a stabilized CRON weight.

Rodney.

> > Something not quite so accurate about that estimate - not sure

what

> it is, but I'd have to rest 18 hrs do very light 6 hrs to get

1816.

> Make it 8,8,8,0,0 and mine is 2690. Not a real number for me - I

> passed thru that 9 yrs ago on the way down to 1800.

> > Maybe some have higher BMR?

> >

> > Regards.

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Modern Nutrition,1999, pg A60:

bmi 25 22 20 women 24 21 19

age 81.0 71.3 64.8 54.0 47.2 42.7

bmr 1820 1710 1630 1290 1190 1120

A61:

ht 1.8 meters wt 71.5 kg age 30-60 1710 kcals

age 18 - 30 1770

age >60 1450

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: Rodney

Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 4:35 PM

Subject: [ ] Re: CR = 1800 Calories per Day???

Hi Jw:Someone needs to come up with an equation that considers age, height, weight, wrist circumference, navel level circumference, flexed bicep/thigh circumferences, body temperature, activity, and no doubt others ............. to get really reliable data for calorie consumption.But for me, since I have been counting this stuff lately, 1800 a day seems to be about ad lib. That may not continue, of course. And it does not include the occasional binge at the local chinese hostelry, which would raise the average a bit. RodneyThanks for that link, Steve.> Something not quite so accurate about that estimate - not sure what it is, but I'd have to rest 18 hrs do very light 6 hrs to get 1816. Make it 8,8,8,0,0 and mine is 2690. Not a real number for me - I passed thru that 9 yrs ago on the way down to 1800.> Maybe some have higher BMR?> > Regards.

[Guest guest]

We already know that it varies both from Walford and from the experience of

us veteran CRONIES. It's futile to try to pin it down to some formula or

number. Some people are rail thin and in the CRONIE ballpark at 2500

cal/day and some (mostly women) with slow metabolism need to go down to

1100-1200/day. The tables that calculate how many cal etc are not " in the

real world " .

A big part of the final calorie count is how low you can go and not be

hungry/thinking of food all day long. That's a big determinant, no matter

how well intentioned you start out.

> Add a WAG of 300 kcals = 1838. It seems close for me to hold weight.

>

> I have a feeling it's going to vary a lot between people.

>

> Regards.

[Guest guest]

Right. A lot of big unanswered questions.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: Francesca Skelton

Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 5:55 PM

Subject: Re: [ ] Re: CR = 1800 Calories per Day???

We already know that it varies both from Walford and from the experience ofus veteran CRONIES. It's futile to try to pin it down to some formula ornumber. Some people are rail thin and in the CRONIE ballpark at 2500cal/day and some (mostly women) with slow metabolism need to go down to1100-1200/day. The tables that calculate how many cal etc are not "in thereal world". A big part of the final calorie count is how low you can go and not behungry/thinking of food all day long. That's a big determinant, no matterhow well intentioned you start out.> Add a WAG of 300 kcals = 1838. It seems close for me to hold weight.> > I have a feeling it's going to vary a lot between people.> > Regards.

[Guest guest]

yes, but if you have trouble falling to sleep you can count calories instead of sheep.... :-)

JR

-----Original Message-----From: jwwright [mailto:jwwright@...]Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 6:36 PM Subject: Re: [ ] Re: CR = 1800 Calories per Day???

Right. A lot of big unanswered questions.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: Francesca Skelton

Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 5:55 PM

Subject: Re: [ ] Re: CR = 1800 Calories per Day???

We already know that it varies both from Walford and from the experience ofus veteran CRONIES. It's futile to try to pin it down to some formula ornumber. Some people are rail thin and in the CRONIE ballpark at 2500cal/day and some (mostly women) with slow metabolism need to go down to1100-1200/day. The tables that calculate how many cal etc are not "in thereal world". A big part of the final calorie count is how low you can go and not behungry/thinking of food all day long. That's a big determinant, no matterhow well intentioned you start out.> Add a WAG of 300 kcals = 1838. It seems close for me to hold weight.> > I have a feeling it's going to vary a lot between people.> > Regards.

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[Guest guest]

Hi Rodney,

You ask tough questions for which no one has an answer. As a scientist it was very uncomfortable for me to accept any of the CR groups, or Walford's ideas/hypotheses. CR is not new to me - I first heard about it in 1982. And I wondered how they could think about applying it to humans. The problem is there is no plan in Walford's book, and I have seen problems in CRers health that makes me skittish following any "rule". What I did was lose weight because it made me healthier, not because my BMI was high, not because my weight was 70# higher than the ins table, not because the doc said to, not because of some trauma like a heart attack - that didn't happen.

What happened was I felt so lousy that I couldn't do anything, had no interest except getting my BP lower. I tried diff diets, gym training, talked to nutritionists (they know nothing about HTN), docs (they know nothing about weight loss), and finally I decided I had to do it myself. After 6 yrs of trying I made a radical change which BTW was reduction in calories until the body decided to respond. That level was 1800 kcals. My BP dropped enough to lose one medication and I felt considerably better like 1000%. Then I could walk and the combination helped me get down to 175#. It worked so well, I got concerned it might not stop going down, so I stemmed it at 175 and worked back up to 180-185. I tracked my intake with a spreadsheet made from the USDA database.

After 2 yrs, my weight showed a tendency to creep up so I'm dropping it again - slowly - about 0.5 # per day until I reach 170#. I will stabilize at that point for the next dr visit in May and then drop it to 165#. I'm already below my 1973 fit wt. 165# is my 1961 to 1970 wt. I don't call that CR - I don't know what CRON is, but I do know I can control my weight, satisfy the RDA's (there aren't many), and get to any weight I want. The main criteria is CALORIES - not veggie - not atkins - not high fat - not low fat - not fuhrman - not ornish - not BMI - not body fat - not some stupid formula - not anything but calories.

AND how you feel has a lot to do with what you eat and where you will stop - the weight you select as your ideal.

Just my take.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: Rodney

Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 5:45 PM

Subject: [ ] Re: CR = 1800 Calories per Day???

Hi Jw:Those numbers make a lot of sense to me. But does 170 pounds at 5' 9" represent CRON?In other words, if you dropped your caloric intake to 1400 or 1500 for sake of example, would your weight not stabilize at a lower, more CRON-like, level?Do you have some idea of what your BF% is? If you BF% is ten or below, then I guess it does represent CRON. But for me at 169 lbs, 5' 10.4" and BF% estimated at a little over 20, I am quite sure I am nowhere close to a stabilized CRON weight.Rodney.> I got this from somewhere - one of the CR groups, I think:> > bmr=13.7*wt(kg) + 5*ht(cm) - 6.8*age + 66> > bmr=13.7*170/2.2 + 5*69*2.54 - 6.8*68+66> > bmr=> 1538> > > > Add a WAG of 300 kcals = 1838. It seems close for me to hold weight. > > I have a feeling it's going to vary a lot between people. > > Regards.