Quick Question for the CRON Experts here.

[Guest guest]

Hi folks:

Quick question. Do we know FOR SURE that supplementation is

essential to gain the longevity benefits of CRON?

I realize it is logical to suppose we will benefit from getting

plenty of all the micronutrients. But I am always suspicious of

logical arguments if they are not yet supported by empirical

tests 'in the field'.

So perhaps my question is best stated as: 'Are there studies

comparing mammals, all of whom were on CRON, where half of them were

supplemented and the other half, while consuming the same number of

calories, were not? And did the supplemented animals live longer

than those that were not supplemented? (And if there is such a study

does someone have the journal reference?)'

The reason I ask is that in the 'Demography of Dietary Restriction in

Drosophila .......' fruit fly study, they were NOT supplemented (they

simply consumed 40% less of the identical diet) and still did obtain

huge reductions in mortality after going on CRON, even at an advanced

age.

I realize, of course, that fruit flies are more distant cousins of

ours than are mice or rats or monkeys.

Rodney.

[We do know for sure that, in at least some instances, hefty

quantities of some essential micronutrients are toxic and will

dramatically reduce lifespan. Vitamins A and D, and many of the

essential metals, like copper, iron or chromium for example.]

[Guest guest]

Where did you get the idea that supplementation is " essential " ?

on 2/24/2004 8:07 AM, Rodney at perspect1111@... wrote:

> Quick question. Do we know FOR SURE that supplementation is

> essential to gain the longevity benefits of CRON?

[Guest guest]

Hi Francesca:

In the CRON studies of mammals I have read about (not many) the

animals subjected to CRON have always been given supplements to bring

their micronutrient levels up to at least those of the non-CRON

controls. This suggests that the investigators believe the animals

need the supplementation. In addition, Dr. Walford devoted an entire

long chapter of BT120YD to the issue (and says it was the most

difficult and frustrating chapter of all to write). He also lists,

if my memory is correct, the supplements he takes.

Rodney.

The reason I ask the question is that since CRON works, something in

the foods most people eat are limiting their lifespan. The

assumption generally seems to be that it is simply the number of

calories. And indeed perhaps that is the, very simple, answer. But

how do we know it isn't instead, say, an excessively large

consumption of 'Vitamin P' (Yes, an imaginary nutrient, not wishing

to show a bias here) that limits the lifespan of those who are fully

fed?

Clearly the CRON experiments indicate that a graph showing volume of

nutrient consumption on the X axis, against lifespan on the Y axis,

is 'A shaped'. (People starve to death on the left side of the graph

and are the size of three elephants on the right). Do we know for

sure that the nutrient responsible for this shape is calories?

>

> > Quick question. Do we know FOR SURE that supplementation is

> > essential to gain the longevity benefits of CRON?

[Guest guest]

> Do we know for sure that the nutrient

> responsible for this shape is calories?

In a word, yes.

The *only* factor in extending maximum lifespan is caloric consumption;

HOWEVER, that does not mean that appropriate nutrition, exercise, lifestyle,

etcetera, don't play a factor in how far one is likely to make it within

that extended or not-extended lifespan. ie: CR makes the extended curve in a

graph of *maximum* lifespan, but other factors can influence *average*

lifespan.

I believe that Walford's intent in BT120YD is to offer a complete system for

integrating CR while maintaining good nutrition -- he is quick to point out

that he is not an expert in nutritional science, though he is certainly more

than a dabbler. The net system: how to do CR without starvation of key

nutrients.

Best,

________________________

Gifford

3-5 Humanities Centre

Department of English

University of Alberta

www.ualberta.ca/~gifford

[Guest guest]

This brings up a topic I've been wondering about. As far as I've

been able to tell, there are no absolutes re: what, if any, supps

actually have an effect on average or max lifespan. So, we're all

just science experiments in the making in this area.

Personally I've always taken a good multi-vitamin, usually high in

the B's, C, and E.

I've also periodically taken CoQ10, extra C & E, deprenyl, Chromium

picolinate, DHEA, Tryptophan, calcium, Omega oils, etc. I've also

considered taking Gerovital-H3 or some sort of HGH. I don't like all

the pills, but the claims of better health are hard to resist!

My question is whether you (anyone/everyone here) would share your

personal decision re: supps. Have you taken them in the past? Do you

currently take supps of any kind? What and how much? Also I'm

wondering how long each of you have been doing CRON (has this

affected your decision re: supps?)

Thanks in advance for sharing!

Shanna

> > Do we know for sure that the nutrient

> > responsible for this shape is calories?

>

> In a word, yes.

>

> The *only* factor in extending maximum lifespan is caloric

consumption;

> HOWEVER, that does not mean that appropriate nutrition, exercise,

lifestyle,

> etcetera, don't play a factor in how far one is likely to make it

within

> that extended or not-extended lifespan. ie: CR makes the extended

curve in a

> graph of *maximum* lifespan, but other factors can influence

*average*

> lifespan.

>

> I believe that Walford's intent in BT120YD is to offer a complete

system for

> integrating CR while maintaining good nutrition -- he is quick to

point out

> that he is not an expert in nutritional science, though he is

certainly more

> than a dabbler. The net system: how to do CR without starvation

of key

> nutrients.

>

> Best,

>

> ________________________

> Gifford

> 3-5 Humanities Centre

> Department of English

> University of Alberta

> www.ualberta.ca/~gifford

[Guest guest]

I take way too many supplements, and, at times, I muse that I am wasting

alot of money, as well as possibly doiing myself more harm than good with

them, but I haven't quit yet.

Just a few: Gamma E, tocotrienols, NtBHA, generic form of ALT-711,

benfotiamine, metformin, pyridoxamine, CoQ10, R-lipoic acid,

acetyl-L-carnitine, carnosine...just the tip of the iceberg.

>From: " Shanna " <slk2295@...>

>Reply-

>

>Subject: [ ] Re: Quick Question for the CRON Experts here.

>Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 17:36:17 -0000

>

>This brings up a topic I've been wondering about. As far as I've

>been able to tell, there are no absolutes re: what, if any, supps

>actually have an effect on average or max lifespan. So, we're all

>just science experiments in the making in this area.

>

>Personally I've always taken a good multi-vitamin, usually high in

>the B's, C, and E.

>

>I've also periodically taken CoQ10, extra C & E, deprenyl, Chromium

>picolinate, DHEA, Tryptophan, calcium, Omega oils, etc. I've also

>considered taking Gerovital-H3 or some sort of HGH. I don't like all

>the pills, but the claims of better health are hard to resist!

>

>My question is whether you (anyone/everyone here) would share your

>personal decision re: supps. Have you taken them in the past? Do you

>currently take supps of any kind? What and how much? Also I'm

>wondering how long each of you have been doing CRON (has this

>affected your decision re: supps?)

>

>Thanks in advance for sharing!

>Shanna

>

>

> > > Do we know for sure that the nutrient

> > > responsible for this shape is calories?

> >

> > In a word, yes.

> >

> > The *only* factor in extending maximum lifespan is caloric

>consumption;

> > HOWEVER, that does not mean that appropriate nutrition, exercise,

>lifestyle,

> > etcetera, don't play a factor in how far one is likely to make it

>within

> > that extended or not-extended lifespan. ie: CR makes the extended

>curve in a

> > graph of *maximum* lifespan, but other factors can influence

>*average*

> > lifespan.

> >

> > I believe that Walford's intent in BT120YD is to offer a complete

>system for

> > integrating CR while maintaining good nutrition -- he is quick to

>point out

> > that he is not an expert in nutritional science, though he is

>certainly more

> > than a dabbler. The net system: how to do CR without starvation

>of key

> > nutrients.

> >

> > Best,

> >

> > ________________________

> > Gifford

> > 3-5 Humanities Centre

> > Department of English

> > University of Alberta

> > www.ualberta.ca/~gifford

>