RE: CR and Weight Training

[Guest guest]

The simple answer to your question as you phrased it is yes, CR and trying

to build muscle bulk seems incompatible. It is not obvious how to build

muscle bulk while in an energy deficit.

That said many around here do resistance work. I lift 3x a week but have

lost some strength compared to my pre weight loss performance. Some report

that they have been able to maintain pre weight loss strength.

Since this also plays into QOL issues you must choose your personal path.

IMO weight training is especially valuable during weight loss to prevent too

much and too quick loss of muscle and bone mass.

A distinction that may not be immediately obvious, the larger benefit of

CRON is not that you get extra years at the end of your life but that you

slow down your rate of aging and get more years in the middle. I can't

imagine not running and not lifting but advocate moderation in all things.

Everything in life is tradeoff so figure out what gives you the most

pleasure.

JR

-----Original Message-----

From: john2dc [mailto:john2dc@...]

Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2004 7:00 PM

Subject: [ ] CR and Weight Training

Greetings:

This has probably come up before. Is obtaining the health benefits

of CR incompatible with trying to build muscle bulk? Gaining lean

muscle tissue requires more calories. Is it possible to obtain the

benefits at any level of caloric intake provided that you experience

some CR relative to your individual calorie needs?

Thanks

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[Guest guest]

During my 20s I was very involved in weight lifting and I ate

enormous amounts of lean high protein foods thinking that it would

help me build muscle. I did get bigger and stronger but my muscles

never showed the cuts or striations that I wanted. I'm approaching

40 now and a year ago I started cutting back on what I ate. A little

at first and then more and more. I gradually cut back until now I

feel hungry most of the time. Now all my muscles show. They might

not be as large as before but the overall effect is definitely more

impressive. Also by losing the 10-20 pound of fat that I was

carrying I now feel more athletic. I can run further and climb

stairs easier. My heart murmur is even quieter. I don't know if

I'll live longer but I am definitely living better. I'm a big

believer in being " dog hungry " most of the time and then feasting

once a week. That is how many of our hunter gatherer ancestors lived.

IMHO natural mass gains from weightlifting are very minimal. Your

muscles swell and get stronger but they can only absorb a small

amount of protein each day. Body builder's on steroids will need

much more protein to support the accelerated growth. A person on a

restricted calorie diet should still be able to feed his/her muscles

enough protein to grow naturally with consuming too many calories.

Just my opinion, try out some different intake levels and see how you

feel.

Regards

Greg

> Greetings:

>

> This has probably come up before. Is obtaining the health

benefits

> of CR incompatible with trying to build muscle bulk? Gaining lean

> muscle tissue requires more calories. Is it possible to obtain the

> benefits at any level of caloric intake provided that you

experience

> some CR relative to your individual calorie needs?

>

> Thanks

[Guest guest]

Yep. Incompatable. If you really want to minimize calories and maximize CR,

energy hungry muscle is something of which you want a reasonable minimum.

OTOH, one must make one's own choice WRT QOL.

>From: " john2dc " <john2dc@...>

>Reply-

>

>Subject: [ ] CR and Weight Training

>Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 23:59:31 -0000

>

>Greetings:

>

>This has probably come up before. Is obtaining the health benefits

>of CR incompatible with trying to build muscle bulk? Gaining lean

>muscle tissue requires more calories. Is it possible to obtain the

>benefits at any level of caloric intake provided that you experience

>some CR relative to your individual calorie needs?

>

>Thanks

>

>

[Guest guest]

I have read that only a very small percentage of the population is able to

produce much muscle mass gain from weight training and diet.......Certainly

seems that I am not in that category, so I settle for light but cut.

>From: " gdham0682 " <gdham@...>

>Reply-

>

>Subject: [ ] Re: CR and Weight Training

>Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 20:45:53 -0000

>

>During my 20s I was very involved in weight lifting and I ate

>enormous amounts of lean high protein foods thinking that it would

>help me build muscle. I did get bigger and stronger but my muscles

>never showed the cuts or striations that I wanted. I'm approaching

>40 now and a year ago I started cutting back on what I ate. A little

>at first and then more and more. I gradually cut back until now I

>feel hungry most of the time. Now all my muscles show. They might

>not be as large as before but the overall effect is definitely more

>impressive. Also by losing the 10-20 pound of fat that I was

>carrying I now feel more athletic. I can run further and climb

>stairs easier. My heart murmur is even quieter. I don't know if

>I'll live longer but I am definitely living better. I'm a big

>believer in being " dog hungry " most of the time and then feasting

>once a week. That is how many of our hunter gatherer ancestors lived.

>

>IMHO natural mass gains from weightlifting are very minimal. Your

>muscles swell and get stronger but they can only absorb a small

>amount of protein each day. Body builder's on steroids will need

>much more protein to support the accelerated growth. A person on a

>restricted calorie diet should still be able to feed his/her muscles

>enough protein to grow naturally with consuming too many calories.

>Just my opinion, try out some different intake levels and see how you

>feel.

>

>Regards

>Greg

>

>

>

>

> > Greetings:

> >

> > This has probably come up before. Is obtaining the health

>benefits

> > of CR incompatible with trying to build muscle bulk? Gaining lean

> > muscle tissue requires more calories. Is it possible to obtain the

> > benefits at any level of caloric intake provided that you

>experience

> > some CR relative to your individual calorie needs?

> >

> > Thanks

>

[Guest guest]

Here is the key issue: Is the calorie reduction necessary to produce the benefits of CR proportional to muscle mass? In other words, if you weigh 200 lbs with lean muscles mass and you would normally eat 3000 calories a day, can you get the same benefits by continuing to work out, but cutting back to 2,500, i.e. by 1/6, calories per day as someone who weights 150 eating 2000 calories per day who also cuts back 1/6? Or, do you have to have muscle wasting to get the benefits of CR?

Any thoughts?

[Guest guest]

The benefits of CR appear, at least up to approximately 60% reduction from

" ad lib " intake, to result in a relatively linear extension of lifepan.

Thus, the greater the amount of caloric reduction from ad lib, the greater

the benefit. At some point, this reduction will probably result in " muscle

wasting " or reduction of lean body mass.

>From: john2dc@...

>Reply-

>

>Subject: Re: [ ] CR and Weight Training

>Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 19:10:43 EDT

>

>Here is the key issue: Is the calorie reduction necessary to produce the

>benefits of CR proportional to muscle mass? In other words, if you weigh

>200 lbs

>with lean muscles mass and you would normally eat 3000 calories a day, can

>you get the same benefits by continuing to work out, but cutting back to

>2,500,

>i.e. by 1/6, calories per day as someone who weights 150 eating 2000

>calories

>per day who also cuts back 1/6? Or, do you have to have muscle wasting to

>get the benefits of CR?

>

>Any thoughts?

[Guest guest]

Hi All,

I push 40% CR and developed severe osteoporosis, bone fractures and

upper respiratory tract infections. I am not a rodent quadraped in

sterile lab conditions.

Al Pater.

> The benefits of CR appear, at least up to approximately 60%

reduction from

> " ad lib " intake, to result in a relatively linear extension of

lifepan.

[Guest guest]

Too true. The results to which I refer are based upon rodent studies. The

relative benefits of CR in humans WRT absolute caloric reduction are not

established.

>From: " old542000 " <apater@...>

>Reply-

>

>Subject: [ ] Re: CR and Weight Training

>Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 00:50:55 -0000

>

>Hi All,

>

>I push 40% CR and developed severe osteoporosis, bone fractures and

>upper respiratory tract infections. I am not a rodent quadraped in

>sterile lab conditions.

>

>Al Pater.

>

>

> > The benefits of CR appear, at least up to approximately 60%

>reduction from

> > " ad lib " intake, to result in a relatively linear extension of

>lifepan.

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Al: I hope you are gaining strength.

You mentioned to me off list that you had 8.2% BF. In light of this and the

fact that other heavier CRONies appear to have much lower levels of BF, do

you have any observations or advice for us regarding other possible metrics

to monitor (besides Dexa scans).

Were any of your blood markers notably different from the other study

participants? Were you aware of difficulty and just unable to correct, or

caught by surprise after crossing some imperceptible threshold?

Hopefully the human study you are participating in will provide insights

into better ways to manage extreme practice for those so inclined.

Be well...

JR

-----Original Message-----

From: old542000 [mailto:apater@...]

Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2004 7:51 PM

Subject: [ ] Re: CR and Weight Training

Hi All,

I push 40% CR and developed severe osteoporosis, bone fractures and

upper respiratory tract infections. I am not a rodent quadraped in

sterile lab conditions.

Al Pater.

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[Guest guest]

Hi All,

Thank you for your well wishes, .

To my recollections, blood immune cells appear to be a reliable

metric of CR. Body temperature is quite closely inversely associated

with CR also. Steroid hormones tend to be lower. Blood lipids

decrease.

Genetic and other factors such as exercise have a large effect on

many of the same parameters, so possibly the change from ad lib

levels are useful.

Overall, see below Luigi Fontana talk notes from Dean P. at the

recent CR meeting in Madison, Wisconsin. My results for applicable

values are within []s.

Cheers, Al Pater.

Apr. 17, 2004.

Luigi Fontana (Wash. U.) – Metabolic and Cardiovascular effects of

Human CR

----------------------------------------------------------------------

------

Exercise increases average lifespan by 10-20% in rodents, but not

maximal. Being lean isn't enough – you need to eat less to gain

maximal lifespan.

Physiological findings in CR monkeys:

• Less trunk fat

• Low fasting glucose and insulin

• Improved insulin sensitivity

• Insulin secretion attenuated

• Reduced triglycerides

• Lower cholesterol

Human groups studied:

• CRonies

• Raw foodists – partially calorie restricted

• Vegans – eat cooked foods

• Standard American Diet (SAD) people – controls

SAD people, all have BMI below 30, but most between 25-30 BMI

(overweight)

All groups had average age around 50.

He combined raw foodist and CRonies in some cases, since they eat

similarly.

BMI of two groups:

• CR and raw foodist people = 20

• Vegans = 22

• Controls = 25

CR people dropped weight from around 24 to just below 20.

Body fat difference:

• CR = 10% [8.2]

• Control = 20%

• CR people quite a bit lower than raw foodist

Trunk body fat:

• CR ~4% [5.3]

• Control 22%

Fat/lean mass ratio and leg lean mass/fat ratio much lower in CR than

controls.

40.5% of people in western culture die because of heart disease,

cerebro-vascular disease, diabetes and hypertension.

Total cholesterol:

• CR around 150, raw 147, and vegan around 150 [103]

• Control: 205

LDL:

• CR = ~82, raw foodists 75, vegans 90 [48]

• Control 126

HDL

• Non-statistically higher in CR, raw foodist and vegans relative

to controls

Total Cholesterol/HDL

• CR 2.5, vs. 4 in controls [2.1]

Triglycerides:

• CR = 40 [35]

• Controls = 120

TG/HDL

• 0.75 CR vs. 2.5 controls [ 0.7]

Systolic BP

• 100 CR vs. 140 controls [83]

Diastolic BP

• 60 CR vs. 85 controls [59]

But baroreceptors adjust, so we don't get dizzy despite low BP.

Heart rate:

• 52 CR vs. 64 controls [54]

C-Reactive Protein – heart disease/inflammation marker:

* 0.5 CR vs. 2.25 controls [?]

OGTT:

• Fasting glucose better in CR than controls

• But many CRonies and raw foodists show reduced glucose

clearance rate

• CRonies are worse at glucose clearance than athletic people on

a " normal " diet

My data was very representative of this anomaly - Large peak in

formal OGTT but low daytime glucose levels during normal living.

CRonies have very low fasting insulin, and are slow to release insulin

Hypothesis: Because our diet never has large glucose challenges, we

may have down-regulated our pancreatic insulin release, or other

glucose clearance helper molecules. So we don't react to glucose

challenge very well.

Glucose exposure wasn't normalized for body weight – could have been

an explanation.

Luigi thinks insulin/glucose is just a marker

Fasting insulin in athletes low (like CR).

Fasting insulin growth factor (IGF)-1 in athletes can be pretty high

(unlike CR).

He's adding another group to study – marathoners who are very thin,

but eat a lot. Should be very interesting to compare with these

people.

He thinks growth factors (e.g. IGF-1) important.

Carotid arteries thickness – less on CR, raw foodists, and vegans

than controls – lower risk of heart disease.

CR people (but not vegans or raw foodists) have significantly lower

artery stiffness than controls.

Blood urea nitrogen is lower in raw food people, but not in CRonies –

indicates high protein intake in CRonies.

Plasma protein lower on CR.

Liver enzymes in blood ALT and AST higher in CRonies – matches CR

rodents and primates

Blood ALP liver enzyme lower in CR

Hematrocrit and hemoglobin – tendency to be lower in CR

White blood cells – all lower in CR, raw foodists and vegans, by a lot

Lymphocytes change in step with degree of CR. More restriction, lower

lymphocytes.

In animals, lymphocytes are lowered by CR, but they are more

efficient.

CRonies more efficient (in immune system) so we don't need as many

WBC's.

He thinks it may explain why autoimmune problems less.

Platelets lower in CR – help stop bleeding. Could explain slow wound

healing in CRonies. Platelets have growth factors (PDGF) in them. May

be bad for longevity in cancer, so low may be good.

Cells cultured in our plasma increase apoptosis a lot – which will

reduce cancer risk. We kill off bad white blood cells well.

When fibroblasts are cultured in our plasma, they proliferate better.

Stem cells proliferate better with our plasma.

Increased BMI => more cancer

IGF-1 positively correlated with cancer.

IGF-1 appears lower, but he's redoing the test.

Testosterone lower in CR

Cortisol is same (repeating – test suspect) – may be higher in CR.

Leptin – very low on CR. Not surprising due to low body fat.

Bone density data – BMD a lot lower for CR, average -2.standard

deviations.

CTX – marker of bone resorption (loss) higher in CRonies

BAP – marker for bone deposition (addition) lower in CRonies

CRonie men may be loosing bone mass.

But despite low bone mass, it may be they have better bone quality -

*maybe*. Walford has very low BMD, but does Yoga that puts a lot

of stress on spine – without fracture.

Energy intake comparisons meaningless, due to propensity of people to

misrepresent calorie intake, especially the standard diet people.

CR people get more protein than raw foodists or vegans.

CR lower in saturated fat intake, cholesterol, and trans fats.

CR has a lot higher fiber than controls.

Phytic acid and oxalic acid (anti-nutrients) lots higher in CR.

Intake of vitamin A (equvilants) and K from diet higher in CR.

B6 and B12 lower in raw foodists.

Sodium and calcium lower in raw foodists. Calcium intake higher in

CRonies.

Luigi believes the important factors for a healthy life:

• Serene mind

• Diet

• Exercise

--- In , " john roberts " <johnhrob@n...>

wrote:

> Hi Al: I hope you are gaining strength.

>

> You mentioned to me off list that you had 8.2% BF. In light of this

and the

> fact that other heavier CRONies appear to have much lower levels of

BF, do

> you have any observations or advice for us regarding other possible

metrics

> to monitor (besides Dexa scans).

>

> Were any of your blood markers notably different from the other

study

> participants? Were you aware of difficulty and just unable to

correct, or

> caught by surprise after crossing some imperceptible threshold?

>

> Hopefully the human study you are participating in will provide

insights

> into better ways to manage extreme practice for those so inclined.

>

> Be well...