Guest guest Posted May 5, 2004 Report Share Posted May 5, 2004 There are many CRONies who run, runners who CRON, whatever. Optimal nutrition is always appropriate no matter what your level of activity. There is much debate about what is the ideal or optimal level of exercise and AFAIK no definitive answers. My recollection is that Dr. Walford suggested in his book that running more than say 10-15 miles per week may be counter productive. IMO the practice of CRON is not a " one size fits all " program and we must balance our QOL against maximum possible lifespan. What's the point of gaining extra time if you're miserable? Moderate practice of CRON can be painless and many find it far more enjoyable than previous non-CRON patterns. There is a continuum of benefit from restricting energy consumption. The general consensus is that energy burned to maintain body heat is life span neutral, but energy spent exercising will work against maximum lifespan. FWIW, I too am a long time runner with one marathon under my belt but no plans to do another anytime soon. I presently run 15 miles per week which is arguably more than optimal but I'm comfortable with my current level of exercise and CRON is far from a precise science. In general the less calories the better but moderation will keep us sane (hopefully). Life is too short to not enjoy it while we're living it. JR -----Original Message----- From: cbogart54 [mailto:cliff@...] Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2004 5:44 PM Subject: [ ] CR for active male I'm a new member and have read about CR for awhile now. One of the things that has kept me away from pursuing it further is that I am a runner (20+ years) and work-out somewhat regularly. I'm concerned that a CR diet would not provide sufficient energy and/or would cause loss of muscle mass. Any info on that, or where can I go to get these questions answered? Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2004 Report Share Posted May 5, 2004 Thanks for the feedback. I currently run about 20 miles a week with a few marathons in my past (most recent about 7 years ago) and no immediate plans to gear up for another. I enjoy running and can't imagine enjoying life without it, and for me it's a much needed stress reliever. > There are many CRONies who run, runners who CRON, whatever. > > Optimal nutrition is always appropriate no matter what your level of > activity. There is much debate about what is the ideal or optimal level of > exercise and AFAIK no definitive answers. My recollection is that Dr. > Walford suggested in his book that running more than say 10-15 miles per > week may be counter productive. IMO the practice of CRON is not a " one size > fits all " program and we must balance our QOL against maximum possible > lifespan. What's the point of gaining extra time if you're miserable? > Moderate practice of CRON can be painless and many find it far more > enjoyable than previous non-CRON patterns. > > There is a continuum of benefit from restricting energy consumption. The > general consensus is that energy burned to maintain body heat is life span > neutral, but energy spent exercising will work against maximum lifespan. > > FWIW, I too am a long time runner with one marathon under my belt but no > plans to do another anytime soon. I presently run 15 miles per week which is > arguably more than optimal but I'm comfortable with my current level of > exercise and CRON is far from a precise science. > > In general the less calories the better but moderation will keep us sane > (hopefully). Life is too short to not enjoy it while we're living it. > > JR > > -----Original Message----- > From: cbogart54 [mailto:cliff@v...] > Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2004 5:44 PM > > Subject: [ ] CR for active male > > > I'm a new member and have read about CR for awhile now. One of the > things that has kept me away from pursuing it further is that I am > a runner (20+ years) and work-out somewhat regularly. I'm concerned > that a CR diet would not provide sufficient energy and/or would > cause loss of muscle mass. > Any info on that, or where can I go to get these questions answered? > Thanks. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 6, 2004 Report Share Posted May 6, 2004 I heard that most long time practioners of CR are thin to lean. I suggest you cut down on your exercise during the first couple of weeks of CR. Once you get the hang of CR you can gradually up your exercise load. If you really enjoy exercise I dont think you'll enjoy CR. If you use exercise as some sort of " release valve " it might be hard doing CR. I dont know think many 100 plus year old people vigorously play sports. They might still be active (walking the dog/picking vegetables etc) but I doubt if they are athletes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 6, 2004 Report Share Posted May 6, 2004 Most are pushing (up daises). Really, the heart muscle fails and they can't do a lot. You see them take tiny steps (like Tim Conway). The cardiac capability will determine the exercise in old age. Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: temma675 Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 1:54 AM Subject: [ ] Re: CR for active male I heard that most long time practioners of CR are thin to lean.I suggest you cut down on your exercise during the first couple of weeks of CR. Once you get the hang of CR you can gradually up your exercise load.If you really enjoy exercise I dont think you'll enjoy CR. If you use exercise as some sort of "release valve" it might be hard doing CR.I dont know think many 100 plus year old people vigorously play sports. They might still be active (walking the dog/picking vegetables etc) but I doubt if they are athletes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 6, 2004 Report Share Posted May 6, 2004 I'm a competitive athlete (runner). I probably do about 6 miles a day, 5 or 6 times a week, half of which is pretty high intensity. My daily coloric intake is somewhere in the 1000-1500 range. I've been doing CR for 3 or 4 months. I haven't really noticed any difference. The CR really wasn't all that different than what I used to do. I'm still carrying about 27% body fat (hasn't changed). I'll probably move my intake down some more from here in an effort to lose some weight. Of course, if there is a metabolism relationship to CR then running probably puts the CR effort in the trash. > I'm a new member and have read about CR for awhile now. One of the > things that has kept me away from pursuing it further is that I am > a runner (20+ years) and work-out somewhat regularly. I'm concerned > that a CR diet would not provide sufficient energy and/or would > cause loss of muscle mass. > Any info on that, or where can I go to get these questions answered? > Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 6, 2004 Report Share Posted May 6, 2004 Hi : Gosh, those are astonishing numbers. Are you sure they are correct? They seem to be internally inconsistent. You say you are consuming 1000 to 1500 calories per day - let's use the number 1250. Your six miles of training a day, half of which is, apparently, at 'pretty high intensity', must be consuming at least 800 calories. That leaves only 450 calories a day for all the other, regular, non- exercise, bodily functions for which most people need at least 2000 a day. I would have thought you would be burning off about 1500 calories a day from your fat reserves to make up the differential. Yet you say you have a sizeable 27% body fat and it hasn't changed. If there is a logical explanation for these apparent anomalies, we here would all greatly benefit from understanding it. Thanks for your contribution. Rodney. --- In , " " <joel_ann_arbor@y...> wrote: > I'm a competitive athlete (runner). I probably do about 6 miles a > day, 5 or 6 times a week, half of which is pretty high intensity. My > daily coloric intake is somewhere in the 1000-1500 range. I've been > doing CR for 3 or 4 months. I haven't really noticed any difference. > The CR really wasn't all that different than what I used to do. I'm > still carrying about 27% body fat (hasn't changed). I'll probably > move my intake down some more from here in an effort to lose some > weight. Of course, if there is a metabolism relationship to CR then > running probably puts the CR effort in the trash. > > > > > --- In , " cbogart54 " <cliff@v...> wrote: > > I'm a new member and have read about CR for awhile now. One of the > > things that has kept me away from pursuing it further is that I am > > a runner (20+ years) and work-out somewhat regularly. I'm > concerned > > that a CR diet would not provide sufficient energy and/or would > > cause loss of muscle mass. > > Any info on that, or where can I go to get these questions answered? > > Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 6, 2004 Report Share Posted May 6, 2004 (Distance) Running is one of the few sports where competitiveness is actually improved by weight loss. While I also run recreationally (I'll be doing Bay to Breakers this year), my favorite sport is basketball where my loss of mass has decidedly worked against me. Competitive running probably requires more mileage (and thus energy intake) than is optimal for reaping full benefits of CR, but you can still benefit from good nutrition and eating less while comfortably maintaining your QOL. Your reported caloric intake looks low for that activity level, although you didn't mention your current weight in this post. Are you confident in the accuracy of you caloric calculations? It is pretty universally accepted that losing weight too fast is not good. Do not be discouraged by apparent lack of progress in short term weight measurements. Water retention and volume of food mass in out digestive tracts can cause distortions in true body weight. Be patient and try to make weight measurements under consistent conditions and then average over time. One key philosophical question is how much present pleasure do we forgo in expectation of " more " future time. Since no one knows when and how our time will run out I prefer a moderate approach which allows a very high present quality of life, should square the curve for normal pathologies, and may deliver some life extension if lucky enough to make it that far. The degree of restriction is a personal choice based on personal expectations. Properly executed CR will slow aging to give us more " now " and more " later " . Good luck with your running but consider moderating the aggressive caloric restriction. JR -----Original Message----- From: [mailto:joel_ann_arbor@...] Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 9:23 AM Subject: [ ] Re: CR for active male I'm a competitive athlete (runner). I probably do about 6 miles a day, 5 or 6 times a week, half of which is pretty high intensity. My daily coloric intake is somewhere in the 1000-1500 range. I've been doing CR for 3 or 4 months. I haven't really noticed any difference. The CR really wasn't all that different than what I used to do. I'm still carrying about 27% body fat (hasn't changed). I'll probably move my intake down some more from here in an effort to lose some weight. Of course, if there is a metabolism relationship to CR then running probably puts the CR effort in the trash. ________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by Internet Pathway's Email Gateway scanning system for potentially harmful content, such as viruses or spam. Nothing out of the ordinary was detected in this email. For more information, call 601-776-3355 or email support@... ________________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 6, 2004 Report Share Posted May 6, 2004 I'm currently about 5'9 " and 175 pounds, small frame. Until a couple years ago I've gone up in weight over the winter and down in the summer although my activity level does not change seasonally. I figure there was some sort of temperature factor involved. We haven't had any real warm temperatures this year yet so I'll have to see but my weight has been pretty constant for a couple years now. I doubt whether I would burn more than a couple hundred calories a day if I didn't run. I usually try to balance the food intake and the assumed calories burned by running although I think the calculations one finds can be grossly in error. A highly efficient and well trained runner could easily run 10 miles without burning many calories. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2004 Report Share Posted May 8, 2004 Unfortunately true. While exercise can make us feel great and be healthy, it is likely, according to animal studies performed, to NOT increase maximum lifespan in the manner in which CR has been shown to do. Too much exercise, requiring excess caloric intake, may cancel out the gains that CR would bring. Absolute caloric intake appears to be the key to CR. >From: " " <joel_ann_arbor@...> >Reply- > >Subject: [ ] Re: CR for active male >Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 14:23:10 -0000 > >I'm a competitive athlete (runner). I probably do about 6 miles a >day, 5 or 6 times a week, half of which is pretty high intensity. My >daily coloric intake is somewhere in the 1000-1500 range. I've been >doing CR for 3 or 4 months. I haven't really noticed any difference. >The CR really wasn't all that different than what I used to do. I'm >still carrying about 27% body fat (hasn't changed). I'll probably >move my intake down some more from here in an effort to lose some >weight. Of course, if there is a metabolism relationship to CR then >running probably puts the CR effort in the trash. > > > > > > > I'm a new member and have read about CR for awhile now. One of the > > things that has kept me away from pursuing it further is that I am > > a runner (20+ years) and work-out somewhat regularly. I'm >concerned > > that a CR diet would not provide sufficient energy and/or would > > cause loss of muscle mass. > > Any info on that, or where can I go to get these questions answered? > > Thanks. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2004 Report Share Posted May 8, 2004 Can you cite any studies for your statements? If true, I'd like to know what is meant by " too much exercise. " I keep track of my calories burned downed to units of 100c and I eat more when I burn more. So whether I walk or run just a mile (roughly 100c), it's still " exercise. " Is that defeating CR? Two miles? Five? Ten? Don On Saturday, May 8, 2004, at 09:45 AM, Dowling wrote: > Unfortunately true. While exercise can make us feel great and be > healthy, it > is likely, according to animal studies performed, to NOT increase > maximum > lifespan in the manner in which CR has been shown to do. Too much > exercise, > requiring excess caloric intake, may cancel out the gains that CR would > bring. Absolute caloric intake appears to be the key to CR. > > >> From: " " <joel_ann_arbor@...> >> Reply- >> >> Subject: [ ] Re: CR for active male >> Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 14:23:10 -0000 >> >> I'm a competitive athlete (runner). I probably do about 6 miles a >> day, 5 or 6 times a week, half of which is pretty high intensity. My >> daily coloric intake is somewhere in the 1000-1500 range. I've been >> doing CR for 3 or 4 months. I haven't really noticed any difference. >> The CR really wasn't all that different than what I used to do. I'm >> still carrying about 27% body fat (hasn't changed). I'll probably >> move my intake down some more from here in an effort to lose some >> weight. Of course, if there is a metabolism relationship to CR then >> running probably puts the CR effort in the trash. >> >> >> >> >> >>> I'm a new member and have read about CR for awhile now. One of the >>> things that has kept me away from pursuing it further is that I am >>> a runner (20+ years) and work-out somewhat regularly. I'm >> concerned >>> that a CR diet would not provide sufficient energy and/or would >>> cause loss of muscle mass. >>> Any info on that, or where can I go to get these questions answered? >>> Thanks. >> > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2004 Report Share Posted May 8, 2004 Don: Dr Walford goes into this topic in his book: Beyond the 120 year Diet. I suggest all newbies read this ASAP. The book is availble in most public libraries. Here are a couple of past posts on the subject. The subject has been discussed extensively here if you want to search the archives further. /message/11196 /message/10234 on 5/8/2004 10:08 AM, Don Libes at don@... wrote: > Can you cite any studies for your statements? If true, I'd like to > know what is meant by " too much exercise. " I keep track of my calories > burned downed to units of 100c and I eat more when I burn more. So > whether I walk or run just a mile (roughly 100c), it's still > " exercise. " Is that defeating CR? Two miles? Five? Ten? > > Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2004 Report Share Posted May 8, 2004 Yup. While exercise will help keep one healthier, and improve one's chances to live out a long lifespan, unlike CR, it's not been shown to increase MAXIMUM lifespan. The following is one of several studies find the same: J Gerontol. 1993 May;48(3):B97-100. Exercise increases average longevity of female rats despite increased food intake and no growth retardation. Holloszy JO. Department of Internal Medicine, Washington University School of Medicine, St. Louis. In previous studies, male rats given access to voluntary running wheels showed improved survival. Because the male runners did not increase food intake, it was not clear whether their improvement in average longevity was due to decreased availability of energy for cell proliferation and growth or to another effect of exercise. In this study, female rats, which increase their food intake in response to wheel running, were used to determine whether exercise can increase longevity when availability of energy for cell proliferation and growth is not decreased. At age 5 mo, the female voluntary wheel runners were running 9173 +/- 3640 m/day (mean +/- SD); running distance declined to 965 +/- 483 m/d by age 34 mo. From 5 mo to 10 mo of age, the runners ate approximately 37% more than the sedentary rats. Thereafter, the runners ate approximately 20% more. The runners and sedentary rats attained similar peak body weights. However, the runners gained weight more rapidly, attaining steady state by 11 mo; the sedentary rats' weights did not plateau until approximately 15 mo. The runners had a significant prolongation of average longevity without an increase in maximal life span. The sedentary rats' average age at death was 924 +/- 155 days (mean +/- SD; range, 619-1263 d) compared to 1009 +/- 132 days (range, 693-1259 d) for the runners, p < .001. These results show that exercise improves average longevity of rats independent of decreased availability of energy for cell proliferation and growth. They also provide evidence that an increase in food intake is not harmful when balanced by an increase in energy expenditure. PMID: 8482812 [PubMed] Dr. Walford, IIRC, recommended getting approximately 20" sessions of aerobics 3X/week. In Beyond the 120 Year Diet, he quotes Dr. regarding aerobics- at more than 15 miles/running/week, the marginal benefits are minimal. He states he is no exercise expert, but aimed at the 20" 3X/week aerobic target plus some stretching and resistance/strength exercise. >From: Don Libes >Reply- > >Subject: Re: [ ] Re: CR for active male >Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 10:08:04 -0400 > >Can you cite any studies for your statements? If true, I'd like to >know what is meant by "too much exercise." I keep track of my calories >burned downed to units of 100c and I eat more when I burn more. So >whether I walk or run just a mile (roughly 100c), it's still >"exercise." Is that defeating CR? Two miles? Five? Ten? > >Don > > > >On Saturday, May 8, 2004, at 09:45 AM, Dowling wrote: > > > Unfortunately true. While exercise can make us feel great and be > > healthy, it > > is likely, according to animal studies performed, to NOT increase > > maximum > > lifespan in the manner in which CR has been shown to do. Too much > > exercise, > > requiring excess caloric intake, may cancel out the gains that CR would > > bring. Absolute caloric intake appears to be the key to CR. > > > > > >> From: "" > >> Reply- > >> > >> Subject: [ ] Re: CR for active male > >> Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 14:23:10 -0000 > >> > >> I'm a competitive athlete (runner). I probably do about 6 miles a > >> day, 5 or 6 times a week, half of which is pretty high intensity. My > >> daily coloric intake is somewhere in the 1000-1500 range. I've been > >> doing CR for 3 or 4 months. I haven't really noticed any difference. > >> The CR really wasn't all that different than what I used to do. I'm > >> still carrying about 27% body fat (hasn't changed). I'll probably > >> move my intake down some more from here in an effort to lose some > >> weight. Of course, if there is a metabolism relationship to CR then > >> running probably puts the CR effort in the trash. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>> I'm a new member and have read about CR for awhile now. One of the > >>> things that has kept me away from pursuing it further is that I am > >>> a runner (20+ years) and work-out somewhat regularly. I'm > >> concerned > >>> that a CR diet would not provide sufficient energy and/or would > >>> cause loss of muscle mass. > >>> Any info on that, or where can I go to get these questions answered? > >>> Thanks. > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2004 Report Share Posted May 8, 2004 There are numerous mouse studies but it's worth noting that this is wrt increasing " maximum " lifespan, and they live in cages. We must first survive our normal lifespan. Exercise is very powerful in squaring the curve for normal lifespan, managing stress, reducing excess weight, and maintaining a high QOL. After you have covered all off these bases and are willing to perhaps trade some present QOL for more time, albeit with less exercise, only then is it an issue. There is not one single formula for practice of CRON. There is a continuum of benefit from differing degrees of restriction but we must balance future value against present cost. We will all have different thresholds for what is an acceptable level of restriction and those will probably change over time. Pick a path that you are comfortable with and periodically evaluate. There is no right or wrong only better and more better. JR I run therefore I am.... -----Original Message----- From: Don Libes [mailto:don@...] Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2004 9:08 AM Subject: Re: [ ] Re: CR for active male Can you cite any studies for your statements? If true, I'd like to know what is meant by " too much exercise. " I keep track of my calories burned downed to units of 100c and I eat more when I burn more. So whether I walk or run just a mile (roughly 100c), it's still " exercise. " Is that defeating CR? Two miles? Five? Ten? Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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