Guest guest Posted March 31, 2004 Report Share Posted March 31, 2004 I have responded to Lynn off list. I invite anyone who is truly interested in the questions raised to do a little more research than one website with an admittedly " progressive " bias (whatever that is). In fact this discussion may be instructive as we grope around in the dark trying to figure out the " truth " about nutrition. Even very dry scientific citation of " facts " contain biases in what and how it's presented. The vast majority of internet websites don't even pretend to be unbiased. Please search out multiple sources and perspectives about any significant choices you make regarding your health. Also try to understand the motivation behind the presentation (follow the money). Even then very popular positions are not always correct (Adkins :-), so develop your personal BS filters. I am comfortable to continue shopping where I do. Life is too short for me to care about where you shop, but please be intellectually rigorous about your personal health decisions. JR PS: I've previously stated my bias but if you haven't figured it out yet I'm conservative, who also happens to own some Wal-Mart stock. -----Original Message----- From: Lynn [mailto:dayrain@...] Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 12:20 AM CR Support Group Subject: Re: [ ] shopping at Walmart Francesca Skelton wrote: Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2004 6:57 PM Subject: Re: [ ] shopping at Walmart > > How about some proof to back up these serious accusations? > > on 3/30/2004 9:46 PM, Lynn at dayrain@... wrote: > > > Just writing to suggest that folks consider *not* shopping at Walmart, > > seeing as Walmart uses unconscionable tactics to save money. To reply, I searched www.commondreams.org to find full-text articles that originated from various sources. In the following, pertinent facts are mixed in with discussion of the problem. No doubt the writers and various persons and organizations mentioned in the articles could provide further data, as could a reading of the public record regarding mentioned lawsuits. Published on Monday, January 26, 2004 by the San Diego Union-Tribune Wal-Mart vs. America's Middle Class by O. Goldsborough http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0126-05.htm Published on Wednesday, August 27, 2003 by the Washington Post In Wal-Mart's America by Harold Meyerson " According to a study by Forbes, Wal-Mart employees earn an average hourly wage of $7.50.... " (See slightly higher figure found by the The New York Times in its article referenced below.) http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0827-06.htm Published on Wednesday, February 18 ,2004 by the Seattle Times Wal-Mart Nation: The Race to the Bottom by Floyd J. McKay " Los Angeles is ... about to take a stand that ought to be applauded across the country. That stand is to say " no " to a Wal-Mart " supercenter " that the retailing giant hopes to open in the city. " Wal-Mart is currently being sued in some 40 cases charging various abuses of labor laws, and last fall it was reported the company extensively employs illegal aliens as janitors. Wal-Mart has successfully opposed unionization and frequently pays well below competing stores. " http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0218-10.htm Published on Wednesday, April 5, 2000 Pruneyard & The Walmart 9 by Dan Hamburg Executive Director of Voice of the Environment Wal-Mart actions in restraint of freedom of speech. http://www.commondreams.org/views/040500-106.htm Published on Thursday, June 26, 2003 by the San Francisco Chronicle Wal-Mart Wars by Ruth Rosen " ... a study done by the San Diego County Taxpayers Association (SDCTA) .... found that an influx of big-box stores into San Diego would result in an annual decline in wages and benefits between $105 million and $221 million, and an increase of $9 million in public health costs. SDCTA also estimated that the region would lose pensions and retirement benefits valued between $89 million and $170 million per year and that even increased sales and property tax revenues would not cover the extra costs of necessary public services. 'Good jobs, good pay, and good benefits should be the goal of an economy,' SDCTA concluded, 'and supercenters are not consistent with that objective.' " http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0626-06.htm Published on Monday, December 8, 2003 by the San Francisco Chronicle Wal-Mart's Big Squeeze Play by Harley Sorensen Wal-Mart wages compared to southern California supermarket chain wages. Contains a link to " an outstanding three-part series on Wal-Mart " by The Los Angeles Times. http://www.commondreams.org/views03/1208-08.htm Published on Monday, February 9, 2004 by Reuters Wal-Mart Accused Over Chinese Factory by Grant McCool http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0209-10.htm Published on Thursday, May 1, 2003 by the Long Island, NY Newsday Meet the Enron of Workers' Rights by Liza Featherstone " In addition to sex discrimination, Wal-Mart is notorious for ignoring federal laws protecting workers' freedom of association. The company has been found guilty of retaliating against - even firing - workers for union organizing. " Wal-Mart has also been accused, in class action suits filed in more than 30 states, of breaking federal overtime laws. In many cases, workers say, managers locked the store doors and would not allow workers to leave. " Workers who make clothing and toys sold at Wal-Mart - mostly young women in Asia - aren't treated much better. The company is frequently criticized by human rights groups like the National Labor Committee and the Lawyers' Committee for Human Rights for its less-than-half-hearted efforts to improve sweatshop conditions in factories making Wal- Mart goods. " http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0501-01.htm Published on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 in the New York Times Suits Say Wal-Mart Forces Workers to Toil Off the Clock by Greenhouse " Although company policy prohibits off-the-clock work, Wal-Mart has created a system of rewards and punishments that critics say gives managers strong incentives to demand such work. " (Details given.) http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0625-04.htm To find many more pertinent articles, search on " Wal-Mart " at www.commondreams.org. As I said earlier, Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2004 6:46 PM Subject: Re: [ ] BP ......... Na ...... Ca > > Let's allow issues of right and wrong to have a place in our nutrition and purchasing choices! Lynn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 31, 2004 Report Share Posted March 31, 2004 I received 's off-list reply and do appreciate his taking the time to share--but I didn't see any reason to abandon my suggestion that people of good will bring ethical considerations into purchasing decisions, including food and nutrition purchasing decisions. As for my having given links from just " one website " (www.commondreams.org), those nine links (see below) take the reader to full-text articles from six newspapers as well as to a Reuters piece and a piece by the leader of an environmental-concerns organization. What does " progressive " mean? I think a major part of what it means is giving at least as much importance to matters of right and wrong as we do to intellectual rigor. I'd say that the Native American tribe that did its best to consider how decisions would impact the next seven generations* was operating from a progressive mindset. What does " conservative " mean? IMO those who've embraced Wal-Mart haven't been conserving things they way they were; instead they've been favoring a certain type of change. Thanks for caring to read about these matters. Let's encourage discussion of them in the wider society. Some people will shop/invest in Wal-Mart anyway, but some people have shopped/invested there only because they haven't been aware of the ethical import of their actions. Lynn * " In our every deliberation, we must consider the impact of our decisions on the next seven generations. " --Translated, AFAIK, from The Great Law of the Iroquois Confederacy. ----- Original Message ----- From: " john roberts " <johnhrob@...> < > Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 7:49 AM Subject: RE: [ ] shopping at Wal-Mart > I have responded to Lynn off list. I invite anyone who is truly interested > in the questions raised to do a little more research than one website with > an admittedly " progressive " bias (whatever that is). > > In fact this discussion may be instructive as we grope around in the dark > trying to figure out the " truth " about nutrition. Even very dry scientific > citation of " facts " contain biases in what and how it's presented. The vast > majority of internet websites don't even pretend to be unbiased. Please > search out multiple sources and perspectives about any significant choices > you make regarding your health. Also try to understand the motivation behind > the presentation (follow the money). Even then very popular positions are > not always correct (Adkins :-), so develop your personal BS filters. > > I am comfortable to continue shopping where I do. Life is too short for me > to care about where you shop, but please be intellectually rigorous about > your personal health decisions. > > JR > > PS: I've previously stated my bias but if you haven't figured it out yet I'm > conservative, who also happens to own some Wal-Mart stock. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Lynn [mailto:dayrain@...] > Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 12:20 AM > CR Support Group > Subject: Re: [ ] shopping at Walmart > > > Francesca Skelton wrote: > Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2004 6:57 PM > Subject: Re: [ ] shopping at Walmart > > > > How about some proof to back up these serious accusations? > > > > on 3/30/2004 9:46 PM, Lynn at dayrain@... wrote: > > > > > Just writing to suggest that folks consider *not* shopping at Walmart, > > > seeing as Walmart uses unconscionable tactics to save money. > > > To reply, I searched www.commondreams.org to find full-text articles that > originated from various sources. In the following, pertinent facts are > mixed in with discussion of the problem. No doubt the writers and various > persons and organizations mentioned in the articles could provide further > data, as could a reading of the public record regarding mentioned > lawsuits. > > Published on Monday, January 26, 2004 by the San Diego Union-Tribune > Wal-Mart vs. America's Middle Class > by O. Goldsborough > http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0126-05.htm > > Published on Wednesday, August 27, 2003 by the Washington Post > In Wal-Mart's America > by Harold Meyerson > " According to a study by Forbes, Wal-Mart employees earn an average > hourly wage of $7.50.... " (See slightly higher figure found by the The > New York Times in its article referenced below.) > http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0827-06.htm > > Published on Wednesday, February 18 ,2004 by the Seattle Times > Wal-Mart Nation: The Race to the Bottom > by Floyd J. McKay > " Los Angeles is ... about to take a stand that ought to be applauded > across the country. That stand is to say " no " to a Wal-Mart " supercenter " > that the retailing giant hopes to open in the city. > " Wal-Mart is currently being sued in some 40 cases charging various > abuses of labor laws, and last fall it was reported the company > extensively employs illegal aliens as janitors. Wal-Mart has successfully > opposed unionization and frequently pays well below competing stores. " > http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0218-10.htm > > Published on Wednesday, April 5, 2000 > Pruneyard & The Walmart 9 > by Dan Hamburg > Executive Director of Voice of the Environment > Wal-Mart actions in restraint of freedom of speech. > http://www.commondreams.org/views/040500-106.htm > > Published on Thursday, June 26, 2003 by the San Francisco Chronicle > Wal-Mart Wars > by Ruth Rosen > " ... a study done by the San Diego County Taxpayers Association (SDCTA) > ... found that an influx of big-box stores into San Diego would result in > an annual decline in wages and benefits between $105 million and $221 > million, and an increase of $9 million in public health costs. SDCTA also > estimated that the region would lose pensions and retirement benefits > valued between $89 million and $170 million per year and that even > increased sales and property tax revenues would not cover the extra costs > of necessary public services. 'Good jobs, good pay, and good benefits > should be the goal of an economy,' SDCTA concluded, 'and supercenters are > not consistent with that objective.' " > http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0626-06.htm > > Published on Monday, December 8, 2003 by the San Francisco Chronicle > Wal-Mart's Big Squeeze Play > by Harley Sorensen > Wal-Mart wages compared to southern California supermarket chain wages. > Contains a link to " an outstanding three-part series on Wal-Mart " by > The Los Angeles Times. > http://www.commondreams.org/views03/1208-08.htm > > Published on Monday, February 9, 2004 by Reuters > Wal-Mart Accused Over Chinese Factory > by Grant McCool > http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0209-10.htm > > Published on Thursday, May 1, 2003 by the Long Island, NY Newsday > Meet the Enron of Workers' Rights > by Liza Featherstone > " In addition to sex discrimination, Wal-Mart is notorious for ignoring > federal laws protecting workers' freedom of association. The company has > been found guilty of retaliating against - even firing - workers for union > organizing. > " Wal-Mart has also been accused, in class action suits filed in more > than 30 states, of breaking federal overtime laws. In many cases, workers > say, managers locked the store doors and would not allow workers to leave. > " Workers who make clothing and toys sold at Wal-Mart - mostly young > women in Asia - aren't treated much better. The company is frequently > criticized by human rights groups like the National Labor Committee and > the Lawyers' Committee for Human Rights for its less-than-half-hearted > efforts to improve sweatshop conditions in factories making Wal- Mart > goods. " > http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0501-01.htm > > Published on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 in the New York Times > Suits Say Wal-Mart Forces Workers to Toil Off the Clock > by Greenhouse > " Although company policy prohibits off-the-clock work, Wal-Mart has > created a system of rewards and punishments that critics say gives > managers strong incentives to demand such work. " (Details given.) > http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0625-04.htm > > To find many more pertinent articles, search on " Wal-Mart " at > www.commondreams.org. > > As I said earlier, > Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2004 6:46 PM > Subject: Re: [ ] BP ......... Na ...... Ca > > > > Let's allow issues of right and wrong to have a place in our nutrition > and purchasing choices! > > Lynn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 31, 2004 Report Share Posted March 31, 2004 At the risk being redundant I do not wish to mold the world to my point of view. I listed my personal biases to help people evaluate my comments. Discussion about my personal politics while flattering should be of little additional interest. While I don't mean to discredit commondreams.org, a certain amount of editorializing goes on by the simple act of inclusion or omission. The selection of articles presented are intended to defend or support their world view. I invite anyone interested in getting the whole story to read those links, but don't stop there. I suspect a newspaper article from Bentonville, Ark might read a little differently. Search out multiple views and then form your own opinion. If it agrees with mine fine, if it doesn't fine. Anyone who has experienced a news worthy event and then read or watched the reportage knows how distorted such coverage can be. Not intentionally but it's just what happens when events get filtered by a reporters personal experience. Closer to home we have seen some extraordinary commentary about CR in the recent spate of publicity, but if you read enough sources you should get a general sense of what is real (maybe not quite yet for CR). Critical evaluation of information is extremely important when operating as we do at the fringes of nutrition. Trying to get adequate nutrition while eating a fraction of the normal caloric consumption leaves less margin for bad science. Dr Walford discusses critical judgment in his book, and it is a valuable tool for living healthy. Don't take anyone's word for anything, even mine :-), but don't assume I'm wrong either.... check multiple sources then make up your own mind. Live long and well... JR -----Original Message----- From: Lynn [mailto:dayrain@...] Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 10:45 AM CR Support Group Subject: Re: [ ] shopping at Wal-Mart I received 's off-list reply and do appreciate his taking the time to share--but I didn't see any reason to abandon my suggestion that people of good will bring ethical considerations into purchasing decisions, including food and nutrition purchasing decisions. As for my having given links from just " one website " (www.commondreams.org), those nine links (see below) take the reader to full-text articles from six newspapers as well as to a Reuters piece and a piece by the leader of an environmental-concerns organization. What does " progressive " mean? I think a major part of what it means is giving at least as much importance to matters of right and wrong as we do to intellectual rigor. I'd say that the Native American tribe that did its best to consider how decisions would impact the next seven generations* was operating from a progressive mindset. What does " conservative " mean? IMO those who've embraced Wal-Mart haven't been conserving things they way they were; instead they've been favoring a certain type of change. Thanks for caring to read about these matters. Let's encourage discussion of them in the wider society. Some people will shop/invest in Wal-Mart anyway, but some people have shopped/invested there only because they haven't been aware of the ethical import of their actions. Lynn * " In our every deliberation, we must consider the impact of our decisions on the next seven generations. " --Translated, AFAIK, from The Great Law of the Iroquois Confederacy. ----- Original Message ----- From: " john roberts " <johnhrob@...> < > Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 7:49 AM Subject: RE: [ ] shopping at Wal-Mart > I have responded to Lynn off list. I invite anyone who is truly interested > in the questions raised to do a little more research than one website with > an admittedly " progressive " bias (whatever that is). > > In fact this discussion may be instructive as we grope around in the dark > trying to figure out the " truth " about nutrition. Even very dry scientific > citation of " facts " contain biases in what and how it's presented. The vast > majority of internet websites don't even pretend to be unbiased. Please > search out multiple sources and perspectives about any significant choices > you make regarding your health. Also try to understand the motivation behind > the presentation (follow the money). Even then very popular positions are > not always correct (Adkins :-), so develop your personal BS filters. > > I am comfortable to continue shopping where I do. Life is too short for me > to care about where you shop, but please be intellectually rigorous about > your personal health decisions. > > JR > > PS: I've previously stated my bias but if you haven't figured it out yet I'm > conservative, who also happens to own some Wal-Mart stock. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Lynn [mailto:dayrain@...] > Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 12:20 AM > CR Support Group > Subject: Re: [ ] shopping at Walmart > > > Francesca Skelton wrote: > Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2004 6:57 PM > Subject: Re: [ ] shopping at Walmart > > > > How about some proof to back up these serious accusations? > > > > on 3/30/2004 9:46 PM, Lynn at dayrain@... wrote: > > > > > Just writing to suggest that folks consider *not* shopping at Walmart, > > > seeing as Walmart uses unconscionable tactics to save money. > > > To reply, I searched www.commondreams.org to find full-text articles that > originated from various sources. In the following, pertinent facts are > mixed in with discussion of the problem. No doubt the writers and various > persons and organizations mentioned in the articles could provide further > data, as could a reading of the public record regarding mentioned > lawsuits. > > Published on Monday, January 26, 2004 by the San Diego Union-Tribune > Wal-Mart vs. America's Middle Class > by O. Goldsborough > http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0126-05.htm > > Published on Wednesday, August 27, 2003 by the Washington Post > In Wal-Mart's America > by Harold Meyerson > " According to a study by Forbes, Wal-Mart employees earn an average > hourly wage of $7.50.... " (See slightly higher figure found by the The > New York Times in its article referenced below.) > http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0827-06.htm > > Published on Wednesday, February 18 ,2004 by the Seattle Times > Wal-Mart Nation: The Race to the Bottom > by Floyd J. McKay > " Los Angeles is ... about to take a stand that ought to be applauded > across the country. That stand is to say " no " to a Wal-Mart " supercenter " > that the retailing giant hopes to open in the city. > " Wal-Mart is currently being sued in some 40 cases charging various > abuses of labor laws, and last fall it was reported the company > extensively employs illegal aliens as janitors. Wal-Mart has successfully > opposed unionization and frequently pays well below competing stores. " > http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0218-10.htm > > Published on Wednesday, April 5, 2000 > Pruneyard & The Walmart 9 > by Dan Hamburg > Executive Director of Voice of the Environment > Wal-Mart actions in restraint of freedom of speech. > http://www.commondreams.org/views/040500-106.htm > > Published on Thursday, June 26, 2003 by the San Francisco Chronicle > Wal-Mart Wars > by Ruth Rosen > " ... a study done by the San Diego County Taxpayers Association (SDCTA) > ... found that an influx of big-box stores into San Diego would result in > an annual decline in wages and benefits between $105 million and $221 > million, and an increase of $9 million in public health costs. SDCTA also > estimated that the region would lose pensions and retirement benefits > valued between $89 million and $170 million per year and that even > increased sales and property tax revenues would not cover the extra costs > of necessary public services. 'Good jobs, good pay, and good benefits > should be the goal of an economy,' SDCTA concluded, 'and supercenters are > not consistent with that objective.' " > http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0626-06.htm > > Published on Monday, December 8, 2003 by the San Francisco Chronicle > Wal-Mart's Big Squeeze Play > by Harley Sorensen > Wal-Mart wages compared to southern California supermarket chain wages. > Contains a link to " an outstanding three-part series on Wal-Mart " by > The Los Angeles Times. > http://www.commondreams.org/views03/1208-08.htm > > Published on Monday, February 9, 2004 by Reuters > Wal-Mart Accused Over Chinese Factory > by Grant McCool > http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0209-10.htm > > Published on Thursday, May 1, 2003 by the Long Island, NY Newsday > Meet the Enron of Workers' Rights > by Liza Featherstone > " In addition to sex discrimination, Wal-Mart is notorious for ignoring > federal laws protecting workers' freedom of association. The company has > been found guilty of retaliating against - even firing - workers for union > organizing. > " Wal-Mart has also been accused, in class action suits filed in more > than 30 states, of breaking federal overtime laws. In many cases, workers > say, managers locked the store doors and would not allow workers to leave. > " Workers who make clothing and toys sold at Wal-Mart - mostly young > women in Asia - aren't treated much better. The company is frequently > criticized by human rights groups like the National Labor Committee and > the Lawyers' Committee for Human Rights for its less-than-half-hearted > efforts to improve sweatshop conditions in factories making Wal- Mart > goods. " > http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0501-01.htm > > Published on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 in the New York Times > Suits Say Wal-Mart Forces Workers to Toil Off the Clock > by Greenhouse > " Although company policy prohibits off-the-clock work, Wal-Mart has > created a system of rewards and punishments that critics say gives > managers strong incentives to demand such work. " (Details given.) > http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0625-04.htm > > To find many more pertinent articles, search on " Wal-Mart " at > www.commondreams.org. > > As I said earlier, > Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2004 6:46 PM > Subject: Re: [ ] BP ......... Na ...... Ca > > > > Let's allow issues of right and wrong to have a place in our nutrition > and purchasing choices! > > Lynn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 31, 2004 Report Share Posted March 31, 2004 Hey , > Anyone who has experienced a news worthy > event and then read or watched the reportage > knows how distorted such coverage can be. I'll second that without hesitation! Best, ________________________ Gifford 3-5 Humanities Centre Department of English University of Alberta www.ualberta.ca/~gifford Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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