Newbie here -- question about every other day fasting...

[Guest guest]

Do many people on this site regularly eat just every other day (in

keeping with Mattson's findings)?

Also, did Mattson find a threshold effect (as far as anyone knows)?

That is, if one consumes 200 (or 400 or 600 or...) calories a day,

is that considered a " fast " day?

Also, how rigorously do people figure out the various constiuents in

their diets, including vitamins, etc.? (I tend to take a multi-

vitamin/mineral pill and figure that my biggest goal is to get the

weight off and to exercise regularly.)

Thanks for your input on this! What a great idea for a group!

Yours,

Caleb

calebb@...

[Guest guest]

Caleb: welcome to the group!

You will find as you stick around that individual ways of doing CRON vary

tremendously. Some people do fast one or more days a week. Some eat one

meal a day every day. Some eat several small meals every day.

IMHO, fasting every other day sounds rather extreme, expecially for a

newbie. Read our files, esp: the " BEGINNING CRON " folder. If you have

read Dr W's : " Beyond the 120 Year Diet " , than you should know that he

does not recommend starting with such extreme measures. Fast once a week,

maybe, if that works for you.

on 6/19/2004 11:02 PM, timetolaugh at timetolaugh@... wrote:

> Do many people on this site regularly eat just every other day (in

> keeping with Mattson's findings)?

>

> Also, did Mattson find a threshold effect (as far as anyone knows)?

> That is, if one consumes 200 (or 400 or 600 or...) calories a day,

> is that considered a " fast " day?

>

> Also, how rigorously do people figure out the various constiuents in

> their diets, including vitamins, etc.? (I tend to take a multi-

> vitamin/mineral pill and figure that my biggest goal is to get the

> weight off and to exercise regularly.)

>

> Thanks for your input on this! What a great idea for a group!

>

> Yours,

>

>

> Caleb

> calebb@...

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Caleb:

I am a bit slow responding to this post of yours. Apologies.

I am not aware of anyone here who eats only every other day. But are

you sure it was a 'finding' of Mattson? Or was it just a convenient

way to reduce the workload with his mice, especially on the

weekends? I think he fed them Monday, Wednesday and Friday in the AM.

I have not seen, and do not think any evidence has been posted here

in the past six months, that shows that fasting + 40% CR provides any

added benefit above and beyond that of 40% CR. My guess is that in a

couple of years someone will have done a study in mice that will help

clear up the issue.

As regards determining the micronutrients in the diet I think keeping

a log for at least a month is essential. I have made a couple of

major changes in the supplements I take to plug two deficiencies I

found when I did it. And these deficiencies were not fixed by taking

a multivitamin - at least certainly not the multi I have been taking.

Rodney.

> Do many people on this site regularly eat just every other day (in

> keeping with Mattson's findings)?

>

> Also, did Mattson find a threshold effect (as far as anyone knows)?

> That is, if one consumes 200 (or 400 or 600 or...) calories a day,

> is that considered a " fast " day?

>

> Also, how rigorously do people figure out the various constiuents

in

> their diets, including vitamins, etc.? (I tend to take a multi-

> vitamin/mineral pill and figure that my biggest goal is to get the

> weight off and to exercise regularly.)

>

> Thanks for your input on this! What a great idea for a group!

>

> Yours,

>

>

> Caleb

> calebb@t...

[Guest guest]

Rodney -- Thanks for your response! Following my message is a copy

of a newsreport or two regarding Dr. Mattson and his approach. While

eating one meal a day seems good in many ways, so does eating once

every other day (and fasting on the other day).

Dr. Mattson was kind enough to write that his human studies would

start in September and I just cannot wait for the results.

At the very least, this will fly in the face of people who say, " Eat

three square meals a day. And -- oh, by the way! -- learn some

appetite control or you're facing serious health risks! " I am not

the kind of guy who can look at a plate of 12 tuna fish sandwiches

and take one. And I think that many, many people are this way too.

Perhaps in addition to tracing our obesity (at least my obesity and

overweight) to fast food and sedentary activities, we should trace

it to people who scream at us regularly, " Three meals a day! And

don't skip a meal! "

Anyway, thanks for your response! Your reactions to the following

would be most interesting!

Yours,

Caleb

**************************

> Mice fed on alternate days live longer, study finds

>

> ASSOCIATED PRESS

>

> April 28 - Periodic fasting can be just as good for a person's

health as

> sharply cutting back on calories, even if the fasting doesn't mean

eating

> less overall, a new study indicates.

>

> 'Overeating is a big problem now in this country, it's

particularly

> troublesome that a lot of children are overweight. It's still

unclear the

> best way to somehow get people to eat less .... One possibility is

skipping

> a meal a day.'

>

> - MARK P. MATTSON

> National Institute of Aging researcher RESEARCHERS ARE now planning

> to see if what works in mice is also good for people.

> Several recent studies have reported a variety of benefits from a

> sharply restricted diet, including longer life span, increased

insulin

> sensitivity and stress resistance.

> In the new report, mice that were fed only every other day - but

> could gorge on the days they did eat - saw similar health benefits

to ones

> that had their diet reduced by 40 percent, a team of researchers

reports in

> Tuesday's online edition of Proceedings of the National Academy of

Sciences.

> The cause of health improvements from cutting back on diet isn't

> fully understood, though many researchers had assumed that a long-

term

> reduction in calories was involved.

>

>

> BENEFIT EQUAL TO CUTTING CALORIES

> But the new study by Mark P. Mattson and colleagues at the

National

> Institute on Aging found equal benefits for mice that ate only

every other

> day, but didn't cut total calories because they ate twice as much

on days

> they weren't fasting.

>

>Mattson said a study is in the planning stages to compare the health

> of a group of people fed the normal three meals a day with a

similar group,

> eating the same diet and amount of food, but consuming it within

four hours

> and then fasting for 20 hours before eating again.

> " Overeating is a big problem now in this country, it's

particularly

> troublesome that a lot of children are overweight. It's still

unclear the

> best way to somehow get people to eat less .... One possibility is

skipping

> a meal a day, " Mattson said. " Our study suggests that skipping

meals is not

> bad for you. "

> Dr. Carol A. Braunschweig of the University of Illinois at

Chicago,

> who was not part of the study team, said she was intrigued by the

suggestion

> that a drastic change in eating patterns might have benefits.

>

>

> FINDINGS MIGHT FIGHT OBESITY

> " With the current epidemic of obesity and physical inactivity

facing

> the U.S. today, identification of a beneficial eating pattern that

could

> address some of the untoward effects of excess weight would be a

very

> significant finding, " she said.

>

> Mattson said an earlier study found that mice that fasted every

> other day had extended lifespans and the new experiment found the

mice also

> did better in factors involved in diabetes and nerve damage in the

brain

> similar to Alzheimer's disease.

> " We think what happens is going without food imposes a mild

stress on

> cells and cells respond by increasing their ability to cope with

more severe

> stress, " Mattson said. " It's sort of analogous to physical effects

of

> exercise on muscle cells. "

> He said the researchers think this stress occurs throughout the

body,

> and that may be the reason fasting seems to increase lifespan and

the

> animals become more resistant to the diseases of aging.

> The dieting mice consumed 40 percent less food than mice eating>

normally and lost nearly half their body weight (49 percent) in the

> experiment, while the fasting mice weighed only a little less than

mice

> eating normally.

>

> In recent years, some nutritionists have recommended eating smaller

> amounts more often, but this study did not deal with that type of

eating

> pattern.

> In the new report, the researchers said both the fasting mice and

> those on a restricted diet had concentrations of blood sugar and

insulin

> that were significantly lower than mice allowed to eat whenever

they wanted.

> Indeed, insulin levels in the fasting mice were even a bit lower

than the

> dieting ones.

>

>

> FASTING BRAINS RESIST TOXIN

> At the end of the experiment all three groups of mice were

injected

> with a toxin that damages cells in the part of the brain called the

> hippocampus. It's cell damage there that that is involved in

Alzheimer's in

> humans.

> When the mouse brains were later analyzed the scientists found

that

> the brains of the fasting mice were more resistant to damage by

the toxin

> than the brains of either dieting mice or those eating normally.

**********************************************

> > Do many people on this site regularly eat just every other day

(in

> > keeping with Mattson's findings)?

> >

> > Also, did Mattson find a threshold effect (as far as anyone

knows)?

> > That is, if one consumes 200 (or 400 or 600 or...) calories a

day,

> > is that considered a " fast " day?

> >

> > Also, how rigorously do people figure out the various

constiuents

> in

> > their diets, including vitamins, etc.? (I tend to take a multi-

> > vitamin/mineral pill and figure that my biggest goal is to get

the

> > weight off and to exercise regularly.)

> >

> > Thanks for your input on this! What a great idea for a group!

> >

> > Yours,

> >

> >

> > Caleb

> > calebb@t...

[Guest guest]

You probably don't want to hear this, but Sumo wrestlers eat exactly

once a day and at night right before bed. :-) Although they do eat

an gargantuan amount of calories at once, a " calorie is not a

calorie " (see my other post under Misconceptions) as many other

factors play a role in fat loss/gain, including how often you eat and

when you eat.

Logan

--- In , " timetolaugh " > At the very

least, this will fly in the face of people who say, " Eat

> three square meals a day. And -- oh, by the way! -- learn some

> appetite control or you're facing serious health risks! " I am not

> the kind of guy who can look at a plate of 12 tuna fish sandwiches

> and take one. And I think that many, many people are this way too.

>

> Perhaps in addition to tracing our obesity (at least my obesity and

> overweight) to fast food and sedentary activities, we should trace

> it to people who scream at us regularly, " Three meals a day! And

> don't skip a meal! "

[Guest guest]

> Rodney -- Thanks for your response! Following my message is a copy

> of a newsreport or two regarding Dr. Mattson and his approach. While

> eating one meal a day seems good in many ways, so does eating once

> every other day (and fasting on the other day).

It's an interesting report. I didn't pore over it, but one thing seemed to

stand out to me: the CR mice and the fasting mice had the same longevity

even though the fasting mice ended up eating a " normal " amount of calories.

Something that bears looking into, and it will be interesting to hear what

his human studies report.

There is a danger here, though, and that is for the folks who are always

looking for a way to " have their cake and eat it, too " . TANSTAAFL is a

universal law and there is no getting around it. I think some people are

going fast one day and then eat whatever they want the next day, gorging

themselves on pizza, donuts, ice cream, or whatever, and think that it's all

OK because they fasted the day before. They will have eaten, instead of

2,500 extra healthy calories to make up for the previous day's fast, 5,000

junk calories, loaded with saturated fat and refined carbs.

>

> At the very least, this will fly in the face of people who say, " Eat

> three square meals a day. And -- oh, by the way! -- learn some

> appetite control or you're facing serious health risks! "

Well, you have to admit that this style would work fine for most people if

those three meals were made up of healthy food and in reasonable quantities.

However, most nutritionists are very dogmatic, and whatever they learned in

Nutritionist School is gospel. It's time for them to admit that one size

does not fit all, and every person has a responsibility to himself to figure

out what works best and results in optimal health for him.

> I am not

> the kind of guy who can look at a plate of 12 tuna fish sandwiches

> and take one. And I think that many, many people are this way too.

Have you really given yourself a chance? I am a binger by nature, too, but

I've found that keeping a daily food diary and having clear-cut goals acts

as a perfect policeman. I remember the first day I faced a big bowl of

M & M's after starting CR. Normally, I would have eaten as many as I could

hold. I can polish off a half pound bag by myself with no trouble at all.

However, I ate six and stopped because I didn't want to have to record for

all eternity that I binged on M & M's that day. It works for me!

Good health to you.

(|-|ri5

[Guest guest]

Thanks for your thoughtful response

I certainly am not recommending that people binge on the non-fast

days, although there may be an actual suppression in diet if people

eat every other day, and only one meal at that time. (Among other

things, the stimuli which usually lead to overeating probably are

somewhat weakened over the rest of the time.) For those with weight

problems, certainly their calorie intake should be in the negative

territory until the excess weight is gone.

Let's take a look at your view though:

> Well, you have to admit that this <three meals a day> style would

work fine for most people if

> those three meals were made up of healthy food and in reasonable

quantities.

<skip>

> Good health to you.

>

> (|-|ri5

I guess Mattson's findings so far are in conflict with this, saying

that less frequent meals are healthier than three meals a day, or

more meals a day. (As you recall, he found that in mice who fasted

every other day had fewer risks for diabetes 2, for Alzheimer's,

etc.)

And you are utterly correct in talking about the dogmatism of some

people who have gone through nutritional training and then find it

difficult to change their views.

However, Mattson's research (and replications of it) may very well

sound a huge wake-up call for those who treat the three-meals-a-day

approach as inviolable, applicable to everyone, etc.

Wishing everyone great health!

Yours,

Caleb

[Guest guest]

Frnacesca -- Thanks for your reponse! I'd bet that CRON does vary

quite a bit in it's actual implementarion.

I am looking forward to learning more about the approach from people

who have " been there, done that. " This seems to be a good place for

that.

Yours,

Caleb

> Caleb: welcome to the group!

>

> You will find as you stick around that individual ways of doing

CRON vary

> tremendously. Some people do fast one or more days a week. Some

eat one

> meal a day every day. Some eat several small meals every day.

>

> IMHO, fasting every other day sounds rather extreme, expecially

for a

> newbie. Read our files, esp: the " BEGINNING CRON " folder. If

you have

> read Dr W's : " Beyond the 120 Year Diet " , than you should know

that he

> does not recommend starting with such extreme measures. Fast once

a week,

> maybe, if that works for you.

>

[Guest guest]

I have only been on this thread a couple of months and I don't know how many

times I have heard RTBTYD120YD! I am rereading it just because it asks so many

of the important questions so that one does not need to entirely create a new

wheel.

I recall in “BT120YD” Walford cautions against fasting, but I don’t have the

book here to look up the pages.

On the other side of the discussion there’s is this recent (2003) study from

the Journal of Neurochemistry discussing salubrious effects of “increasing the

interval between meals.”

An excerpt:

" Interestingly, increasing the time interval between meals can have beneficial

effects on the brain and overall health of mice that are independent of

cumulative calorie intake. The beneficial effects of DR, particularly those of

intermittent fasting, appear to be the result of a cellular stress response that

stimulates the production of proteins that enhance neuronal plasticity and

resistance to oxidative and metabolic insults; they include neurotrophic factors

such as brain-derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF), protein….

The profound influences of the quantity and timing of food intake on neuronal

function and vulnerability to disease have revealed novel molecular and cellular

mechanisms whereby diet affects the nervous system, and are leading to novel

preventative and therapeutic approaches for neurodegenerative disorders.

The whole abstract:

http://snipurl.com/78ml

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstra\

ct & list_uids=12558961

Thanks.

In , Francesca Skelton

<fskelton@e...> wrote:

>Dr W's :  " Beyond the 120 Year Diet " , than you should know

>that he does not recommend starting with such extreme measures. Fast once

>a week, maybe, if that works for you.

----------------------------------------------------------------

This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.

[Guest guest]

Hi Caleb. I too love to read about the efforts & meals that others

have. I have had more consistent success lately, but the past is

fraught with wagon fall-offs :-) Here's one with recipes that I am

dying to try. http://crdiary.blogspot.com/

timetolaugh wrote:

>I am looking forward to learning more about the approach from people who have

" been there, done that. " This seems to be a good place for that.

>

>

[Guest guest]

> timetolaugh wrote:

>

> >I am looking forward to learning more about the approach

from people who have " been there, done that. " This seems to be

a good place for that.

I'd be interested in trying this every other day fast but have a

couple of questions.

I think we have a couple of hypothyroids on the list and my

question is would this fasting be unhealthy with this condition?

Next question: when you are fasting do you also omit all vitamin

supplements.

Hoping this hasn't been answered before.

Canary Peg

[Guest guest]

-- Thanks! In the Walford site is a caution about suddenly

restricting calories (an allusion to the negative health effects on

mice). If eating sawdust was proven healthy, I'd try to teach myself

to eat sawdust.

As T. H. Huxley said, we should go wherever the data may lead us.

Yours,

Caleb

> >Dr W's :  " Beyond the 120 Year Diet " , than you should know

> >that he does not recommend starting with such extreme measures.

Fast once

> >a week, maybe, if that works for you.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ----------------------------------------------------------------

> This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.

[Guest guest]

Apricot -- Thanks for your nice message! My problem is that even

thinking about your name makes me hungry. And so one of the benefits

for me for greatly spacing out my meals is that I don't ask myself

whether this food is edible in appreciable amounts -- I know that

it's not.

I have talked to many clients who have used hard drugs, or even

softer drugs, and I think to myself, " I am so glad I have never used

those substances and I don't know how delightful they feel. " Rather

like one Archbishop of Canterbury who said, " I don't read magazines

because they make me want things I cannot have. "

In the citation by (who responded to my recent question) was a

suggestion that fasting might reduce appetite, and I think that's

true. For me, eating tends to increase my hunger -- or at least my

sensation of hunger. Eating less frequently reduces my hunger.

(Perhaps it will be different if I reach my optimal weight, but

that's a few months away.)

Thank you for your very kind response!

Yours,

Caleb

>

> >I am looking forward to learning more about the approach from

people who have " been there, done that. " This seems to be a good

place for that.

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Peg --

I guess you're asking me this question. I try to take daily

vitamins/minerals on a daily basis, but I guess I'm not that

consistent. Missing a day of calories really doesn't bother me much

other than I enjoy my beer at night.

But I've gone 11 days without eating and felt stronger every day.

From my perspective, too many calories is going to kill me (or harm

me via stroke, kidney damager, etc.) a heck of a lot quicker than

too few calories.

I asked my son several yars ago (when he was in middle school)

whether he thought the problem in America was generally too much

food or too little food, and he got it wrong. (I think.) I asked him

whether in health and nutrition classes he was ever taught that a

major health problem in the US was too many calories and he said no,

he was never taught this. According to my far better half, too many

girls are passing out in school from eating too little, but frankly,

I disagree that this is a compelling reason for hiding from

youngsters the fact that the major health problem in the US (other

than cigarettes) is obesity.

If the general human race were incredibly delicate, we would have

died out eons ago.

Just my opinion, but I look forward to what others think. (I'm a

newbie here, although my hair is gray, etc.)

Yours,

Caleb (wishing everyone the best possible health)

> >

> > >I am looking forward to learning more about the approach

> from people who have " been there, done that. " This seems to be

> a good place for that.

>

> I'd be interested in trying this every other day fast but have a

> couple of questions.

>

> I think we have a couple of hypothyroids on the list and my

> question is would this fasting be unhealthy with this condition?

> Next question: when you are fasting do you also omit all vitamin

> supplements.

>

> Hoping this hasn't been answered before.

>

> Canary Peg

[Guest guest]

Hi :

FWIW my approach to fasting is the same as to any other health

issue. If there is really convincing evidence it is likely to

improve my health or increase my lifespan I will do it.

For example, if we see studies that show that 40% restricted and

fasted mice live longer (either average lifespan or maximum lifespan)

than 40% restricted mice that are not fasted, then I will start

fasting.

I have not seen that kind of clear evidence yet. Certainly there are

studies showing that unrestricted fasted mice show improvements in

certain biomarkers (but deterioration in others). But for me these

are suggestive rather than persuasive.

Probably we will start getting some more definitive studies soon.

But I am not aware of any studies underway that are taking 40%

restricted mice as the controls. In my view it is now time to do

that.

That said, I doubt fasting one day a week will cause harm. And it

may in due course be proven to be of benefit. If that happens I will

be doing it. Then.

Rodney.

(Thanks for the link to the abstract from that 2003 study).

> I recall in " BT120YD " Walford cautions against fasting.

> On the other side of the discussion there's is this recent (2003)

study from

> the Journal of Neurochemistry discussing salubrious effects

of " increasing the

> interval between meals. "

>

> An excerpt:

>

> " Interestingly, increasing the time interval between meals can have

beneficial

> effects on the brain and overall health of mice that are

independent of

> cumulative calorie intake. The beneficial effects of DR,

particularly those of

> intermittent fasting, appear to be the result of a cellular stress

response that

> stimulates the production of proteins that enhance neuronal

plasticity and

> resistance to oxidative and metabolic insults; they include

neurotrophic factors

> such as brain-derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF), protein….

> The profound influences of the quantity and timing of food intake

on neuronal

> function and vulnerability to disease have revealed novel molecular

and cellular

> mechanisms whereby diet affects the nervous system, and are leading

to novel

> preventative and therapeutic approaches for neurodegenerative

disorders.

>

>

> The whole abstract:

> http://snipurl.com/78ml

>

> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstract & list_uids=12558961

>