oops sorry, i would like to do a fast...

[Guest guest]

i just read Dr.Fuhrmans book and would like to do a fast for at least 2 weeks.

mainly to

detoxify, kickstart my CR program, and maybe drop some weight. what are your

opinions

on fasting? have you tried it? have you had good results? also, should i be

afraid of it

adversely effecting my metabolism?

thank you,

sammy

[Guest guest]

A two week fast sounds pretty extreme and dangerous. Dr Walford recommends

an occasional fast day, never anything like two weeks . If that's what

this Dr. Fuhrman suggests, why would you want to follow the advice of some

quack advocating something so dangerous? Read " Beyond the 120 Year Diet "

and follow the sound advice in that book.

on 6/8/2004 10:02 PM, ymmas808 at ymmas808@... wrote:

> i just read Dr.Fuhrmans book and would like to do a fast for at least 2 weeks.

> mainly to

> detoxify, kickstart my CR program, and maybe drop some weight. what are your

> opinions

> on fasting? have you tried it? have you had good results? also, should i be

> afraid of it

> adversely effecting my metabolism?

> thank you,

> sammy

[Guest guest]

Did Dr. Fuhrman suggest starting out with a 2 week fast?

Have you fasted before?

I don't know about adversely affecting your metabolism, but your body may

have trouble accommodating the lack of sugar (carbs). Especially if you've

never fasted before.

2 weeks sounds long to me... how many calories a day is that:-)?

If you're healthy and routinely skip sequential meals with no malaise then

perhaps you'll have no problems. I personally lean toward much shorter and

not very frequent fasting.

I've only done one (on purpose) for about a day and a half and while not

extremely unpleasant, eating was far more pleasant.

JR

-----Original Message-----

From: ymmas808 [mailto:ymmas808@...]

Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 9:03 PM

Subject: [ ] oops sorry, i would like to do a fast...

i just read Dr.Fuhrmans book and would like to do a fast for at least 2

weeks. mainly to

detoxify, kickstart my CR program, and maybe drop some weight. what are your

opinions

on fasting? have you tried it? have you had good results? also, should i be

afraid of it

adversely effecting my metabolism?

thank you,

sammy

[Guest guest]

I have fasted a few times. My last time was 6 days, and it took me

some time to work at it. If you are going to fast, I'd suggest with a

series of one day fasts, then a few two day fasts, working very gently

up. Once ketosis sets in after 40+ hours without sugar technique, it's

a whole nother ball game. You have to understand what you're body is

doing, and avoid problems such as tempreture loss, and be prepared for

some less that comfortable side effects.

I find it more than worth my time, and there are a lot of good

fasting email lists out there.

Good luck, and brightest blessings,

Caroline

ymmas808 wrote:

>i just read Dr.Fuhrmans book and would like to do a fast for at least 2 weeks.

mainly to

>detoxify, kickstart my CR program, and maybe drop some weight. what are your

opinions

>on fasting? have you tried it? have you had good results? also, should i be

afraid of it

>adversely effecting my metabolism?

>thank you,

>sammy

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

My opinion on fasting is that (like everything) it could be good, but only

in moderation. Two weeks of fasting sounds extreme and unhealthy to me.

Eating healthy, natural food should " detoxify " you just fine, without the

need of foregoing food altogether, IMO. In addition, if you would like to

lose weight, CRON will do that for you just fine. Believe me, you are not

going to want to lose weight any faster than you will in the initial stages

of CRON.

I would think twice about fasting for two weeks, and then if you still want

to do it, think again. Keep repeating that until you've decided against it.

(|-|ri5

>

>

> i just read Dr.Fuhrmans book and would like to do a fast for at

> least 2 weeks. mainly to

> detoxify, kickstart my CR program, and maybe drop some weight.

> what are your opinions

> on fasting? have you tried it? have you had good results? also,

> should i be afraid of it

> adversely effecting my metabolism?

> thank you,

> sammy

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>> If that's what this Dr. Fuhrman suggests, why would you want to follow the

advice of some

quack advocating something so dangerous?

With all due respect....

I personally know dr fuherman and helped him with his last 2 books. He is

definitely not a quack. Nor is fasting, under the right conditions and for the

right reasons, dangerous. In fact, quite the opposite. The advice of his

book is good sound nutrition. His nutritional recommnedations are not much

different than what Pritikin, Ornish, McDougall, Walford, , and

etc etc recommends. He has written a seperate book called Fasting and Eating

For Health, which I would recommend to anyone who would like to fast. We sit on

an advisory board together and I send all my hardest cases to him.

Personally, I fasted for 2 weeks (or more) almost every year from 1985 to 1995

on water. In the early eyars, I also fasted one day a week, and 3 days a month

on a regular basis. I also engaged in several 30 day juice fasts and have done

a few 2 week juice fasts in the last 2 years. My favorite is watermelon juice.

While I think what I did may have been alittle excessive and not neccessary as

often as I did it, it was still easy, safe, and beneficial to my health.

For most people, it is safe however it is not someting I would try at home or

alone nor is it something I would do for weight loss, or without a true medical

reason justifying it. 2 weeks is not extreme and have seen, and watched many

people fast 30, 45 and even 60 days and more. There are cases in the medical

literature of people fasting even longer safely. Most people, even thin

people, have enough reserves on them to fast 7-14 days or more. With fasts

over 3 days, there are situations that can arise that need to be " evaluated " by

a trained health professional. They also monitor vitals and blood regularly to

make sure everything is going well. Also, the process at times can be boring

and tedious, so being in a proper environment, like a supervised fasting center

(there are about 10 in the US), are very helpful.

Without going into all the details, the body is set up to accomodate fasting, or

extended periods without food, and does it very very well. These adaptions are

also very healthy and in a short time, and can be very effective in allowing the

body to reverse some long time damage. It is also extrememly effective in

helping break some longterm habits.

Several studies have recently been pubished on the benefits of Medically

Supervised Fasting, and the work was done at a center in CA, called True North

By an Alan Goldhammer. I have fasted there several times with him. T Colin

Campell, the world renowned nutritonal biochemist from Cornell and author of the

China Study is co-author of some of the studies. As the article below state, it

is now been shown to be the most effective treatment in Hypertension, producing

the largest effect size, in the shortest period.

I have read some studies on CR where similar effects (and benefits) was acheived

by fasting every other day.

My recommendations to anyone interested in the topic are to read Dr Fuhrmans

first book, " Fasting and Eating For Health " and find out more about him. His

website is www.drfuhrman.com

Fasting taught me alot about eating. And for me has made the process of

learning how to eat healthy food and less food, much much easier. I remember 2

years ago when I first recommended to my fiancee that we fast. She thought I

was crazy and wondered how she would ever have the strength to go through a day

without eating, let along skip a meal. So, we did a 2 week modified juice fast,

to break the ice. 2 weeks later, on the 14th day, we were out going for a walk

and I asked her how she felt and she said, she never felt better, had more

energy and couldnt beleive that after 14 days of hardly any intake, she was out

walking briskly feeling incredible. And, after 2 weeks on water, there is

nothing like the taste of the first piece of watermelon!!

Jeff

Medically supervised water-only fasting in the treatment of borderline

hypertension.

J Altern Complement Med. 2002 Oct;8(5):643-50

Goldhamer AC, Lisle DJ, Sultana P, SV, Parpia B, B, TC.

TrueNorth Health Center, Rohnert Park, CA 94928, USA. dracg@...

BACKGROUND: Hypertension-related diseases are the leading causes of morbidity

and mortality in industrially developed societies. Surprisingly, 68% of all

mortality attributed to high blood pressure (BP) occurs with systolic BP between

120 and 140 mm Hg and diastolic BP below 90 mm Hg. Dietary and lifestyle

modifications are effective in the treatment of borderline hypertension. One

such lifestyle intervention is the use of medically supervised water-only

fasting as a safe and effective means of normalizing BP and initiating

health-promoting behavioral changes. METHODS: Sixty-eight (68) consecutive

patients with borderline hypertension with systolic BP in excess of 119 mm Hg

and diastolic BP less than 91 mm Hg were treated in an inpatient setting under

medical supervision. The treatment program consisted of a short prefasting

period (approximately 1-2 days on average) during which food consumption was

limited to fruits and vegetables followed by medically supervised water-only

fasting (approximately 13.6 days on average). Fasting was followed by a

refeeding period (approximately 6.0 days on average). The refeeding program

consisted of a low-fat, low-sodium, plant-based, vegan diet. RESULTS:

Approximately 82% of the subjects achieved BP at or below 120/80 mm Hg by the

end of the treatment program. The mean BP reduction was 20/7 mm Hg, with the

greatest decrease being observed for subjects with the highest baseline BP. A

linear regression of BP decrease against baseline BP showed that the estimated

BP below which no further decrease would be expected was 96.0/67.0 mm Hg at the

end of the fast and 99.2/67.3 mm Hg at the end of refeeding. These levels are in

agreement with other estimates of the BP below which stroke events are

eliminated, thus suggesting that these levels could be regarded as the " ideal "

BP values. CONCLUSION: Medically supervised water-only fasting appears to be a

safe and effective means of normalizing BP and may assist in motivating

health-promoting diet and lifestyle changes.

Medically supervised water-only fasting in the treatment of hypertension.

J Manipulative Physiol Ther. 2001 Jun;24(5):335-9

Goldhamer A, Lisle D, Parpia B, SV, TC.

Center for Conservative Therapy, Penngrove, Calif, USA. dracg@...

BACKGROUND: Hypertension-related diseases are the leading cause of morbidity and

mortality in industrially developed societies. Although antihypertensive drugs

are extensively used, dietary and lifestyle modifications also are effective in

the treatment of patients with hypertension. One such lifestyle intervention is

the use of medically supervised, water-only fasting as a safe and effective

means of normalizing blood pressure and initiating health-promoting behavioral

changes. METHODS: One hundred seventy-four consecutive hypertensive patients

with blood pressure in excess of 140 mm Hg systolic, 90 mm Hg diastolic (140/90

mm Hg), or both were treated in an inpatient setting under medical supervision.

The treatment program consisted of a short prefasting period (approximately 2 to

3 days on average) during which food consumption was limited to fruits and

vegetables, followed by medically supervised water-only fasting (approximately

10 to 11 days on average) and a refeeding period (approximately 6 to 7 days on

average) introducing a low-fat, low-sodium, vegan diet. RESULTS: Almost 90% of

the subjects achieved blood pressure less than 140/90 mm Hg by the end of the

treatment program. The average reduction in blood pressure was 37/13 mm Hg, with

the greatest decrease being observed for subjects with the most severe

hypertension. Patients with stage 3 hypertension (those with systolic blood

pressure greater than 180 mg Hg, diastolic blood pressure greater than 110 mg

Hg, or both) had an average reduction of 60/17 mm Hg at the conclusion of

treatment. All of the subjects who were taking antihypertensive medication at

entry (6.3% of the total sample) successfully discontinued the use of

medication. CONCLUSION: Medically supervised water-only fasting appears to be a

safe and effective means of normalizing blood pressure and may assist in

motivating health-promoting diet and lifestyle changes.

A preliminary fast may potentiate response to a subsequent low-salt, low-fat

vegan diet in the management of hypertension - fasting as a strategy for

breaking metabolic vicious cycles.

Med Hypotheses. 2003 May;60(5):624-33.

McCarty MF.

Pantox Laboratories, San Diego, California, USA.

Although a salted diet appears to be a sine qua non for the development of

essential hypertension, low-salt diets often have a modest or even negligible

impact on the blood pressure of hypertensives; this suggests that salt, perhaps

often acting in concert with other aspects of a modern, rich diet, may set in

place certain metabolic vicious cycles that sustain blood pressure elevation

even when dietary salt is eliminated. Therapeutic fasting is known to lower

elevated blood pressure - presumably in large part because it minimizes insulin

secretion - and may have the potential to break some of these vicious cycles.

Goldhamer has recently reported that a regimen comprised of a water-only fast of

moderate duration, followed by a transition to a low-fat, low-salt, whole-food

vegan diet, achieves dramatic reductions in the blood pressure of hypertensives,

such that the large majority of patients can be restored to normotensive status,

in the absence of any drug therapy. Although long-term follow-up of these

subjects has been sporadic, the available data suggest that these large

reductions is blood pressure can be conserved in patients who remain compliant

with the follow-up diet - in other words, a 'cure' for hypertension may be

feasible. If a protein-sparing modified fast can be shown to be virtually as

effective as a total fast for achieving these benefits, it may be possible to

implement this regimen safely on an outpatient basis. The ability of therapeutic

fasts to break metabolic vicious cycles may also contribute to the efficacy of

fasting in the treatment of type 2 diabetes and autoimmune disorders. As a

general principle, if a metabolic disorder is susceptible to prevention - but

not reversal - by a specific diet, and therapeutic fasting has a temporary

favorable impact on this disorder, then a more definitive therapy may consist of

a therapeutic fast, followed up by the protective diet as a maintenance regimen.

on 6/8/2004 10:02 PM, ymmas808 at ymmas808@... wrote:

> i just read Dr.Fuhrmans book and would like to do a fast for at least 2 weeks.

> mainly to

> detoxify, kickstart my CR program, and maybe drop some weight. what are your

> opinions

> on fasting? have you tried it? have you had good results? also, should i be

> afraid of it

> adversely effecting my metabolism?

> thank you,

> sammy

[Guest guest]

Hi Ymmas:

In my opinion there is just ONE QUESTION you need to ask yourself

about your proposed long fast (or for that matter about any other

decisions you make about your health). It is this:

" IS THERE ANY SERIOUS EMPIRICAL SCIENTIFIC ***EVIDENCE*** THAT WHAT I

AM THINKING OF DOING IS NECESSARY OR DESIRABLE? "

In other words, have any (and preferably a lot more than just one)

studies been done with real people (or other mammals) that have shown

definite benefits of the course you are thinking of taking?

Here is what I believe you may find in answer to your question:

1. In many mouse caloric restriction studies the animals have been

fed only three times per week - Monday, Wednesday and Friday. These

mice were healthy and lived a lot longer than the fully fed mice.

(But they had an exceptionally healthy diet on those three days).

2. I am aware of no studies at all (this does not necessarily mean

there are no studies) that show any benefits for fasts longer than a

couple of days (and even in this case it seems much more likely that

it was the limited calories, NOT THE FASTING, that was the source of

the benefit). So if you were to embark on as long a fast as you are

thinking about, then you will be experimenting on yourself. That is

a risk I would not be prepared to take with my own body without clear

evidence I would not be harming to myself.

3. A few months ago, interested to try to find evidence of whether

there are benefits to fasting, I did a Google search and then emailed

the two most prominent fasting advocates listed. I asked them if

they could help by giving me citations to scientific studies which

demonstrated the benefits of fasting. ONE OF THESE WAS FUHRMAN!!!!!

Neither of these sources was able/willing to provide any such

information. Clearly, if they knew of such evidence they would not

only be delighted to tell us about it, it would be capitalized and

double-underlined on their websites, wouldn't it? They would hardly

be likely to hide their light under a bushel, would they? These

people are quite clearly not ignorant of the benefits of marketing

themselves!

So, the obvious conclusion I drew from this little exercise was that

these people are hucksters pushing something for which they have no

evidence of benefit (other than, presumably, to their own pocket).

For me, I wouldn't touch these people with a hundred foot pole. But

you will make your own decision, of course, based on what makes sense

to you.

Were these people to enlighten us about persuasive experimental

evidence that humans or animals benefit from the kinds of fasts they

recommend I would be more than enthusiastic about reversing my

opinion. I am pretty sure they are never going to provide it,

however.

Rodney.

--- In , " ymmas808 " <ymmas808@y...>

wrote:

> i just read Dr.Fuhrmans book and would like to do a fast for at

least 2 weeks. mainly to

> detoxify, kickstart my CR program, and maybe drop some weight. what

are your opinions

> on fasting? have you tried it? have you had good results? also,

should i be afraid of it

> adversely effecting my metabolism?

> thank you,

> sammy

[Guest guest]

Hi Jeff:

Thanks for those citations. I will take a look at them. Perhaps

over the weekend.

Rodney.

--- In , " Jeff Novick " <jnovick@p...>

wrote:

> >> If that's what this Dr. Fuhrman suggests, why would you want to

follow the advice of some

> quack advocating something so dangerous?

>

> With all due respect....

>

> I personally know dr fuherman and helped him with his last 2

books. He is definitely not a quack. Nor is fasting, under the

right conditions and for the right reasons, dangerous. In fact,

quite the opposite. The advice of his book is good sound

nutrition. ..................

[Guest guest]

Also, in regard to the " evidence " in humans and animals. I gave the most

recent studies. Each of them have a decent reference list of other studies.

Also, Furmans first book is full of references in the back. I know, I spent

years helping him obtain them.

Evidence? Do we not see the bear, (as many other animals) fast for several

months each year, quite safely. And emerge from its rest in quite remarkable

health?

IS not everyone, who is practiving CRON, in effect, experimenting on themselves,

and by many, considered quacks? While there is animal data, there is little if

any, good human data on any reasonable amount of subjects.

SOme of the benfits to fasting " may " be beyond the reduction in calories

I can speak for Dr Fuhrman, but there are many reasons why your email may not

have been answered appropriately. Usually , he directs people to his first

book, where the references are listed.

I have PDF of some of the studies if you need them.

Jeff

-----Original Message-----

From: Rodney [mailto:perspect1111@...]

Sent: Wed 6/9/2004 8:07 AM

Cc:

Subject: [ ] Re: oops sorry, i would like to do a fast...

Hi Jeff:

Thanks for those citations. I will take a look at them. Perhaps

over the weekend.

Rodney.

> >> If that's what this Dr. Fuhrman suggests, why would you want to

follow the advice of some

> quack advocating something so dangerous?

>

> With all due respect....

>

> I personally know dr fuherman and helped him with his last 2

books. He is definitely not a quack. Nor is fasting, under the

right conditions and for the right reasons, dangerous. In fact,

quite the opposite. The advice of his book is good sound

nutrition. ..................

[Guest guest]



I've looked at a lot of resources for "the benefits of fasting", a phrase used often in Fuhrman's book and not elucidated. Could you list a few "benefits" that cannot be achieved with a less stringent weight reduction?

AFAIC, the book is an advertisement for his clinic.

I don't recall Ornish, et al, recommending fasting, or their diets being anything like starvation.

What is a "hardest case"?

Recognize that while Walford "noticed" fasting, he did say the metabolism is prompted to be higher not lower as achieved in CR. I want my metabolism to be lower constantly. To me that's opposite of the starvation plan.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: Jeff Novick

Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 6:53 AM

Subject: RE: [ ] oops sorry, i would like to do a fast...

>> If that's what this Dr. Fuhrman suggests, why would you want to follow the advice of some quack advocating something so dangerous? With all due respect.... I personally know dr fuherman and helped him with his last 2 books. He is definitely not a quack. Nor is fasting, under the right conditions and for the right reasons, dangerous. In fact, quite the opposite. The advice of his book is good sound nutrition. His nutritional recommnedations are not much different than what Pritikin, Ornish, McDougall, Walford, , and etc etc recommends. He has written a seperate book called Fasting and Eating For Health, which I would recommend to anyone who would like to fast. We sit on an advisory board together and I send all my hardest cases to him. For most people, it is safe however it is not someting I would try at home or alone nor is it something I would do for weight loss, or without a true medical reason justifying it.

Jeff

[Guest guest]



Do you have data that says bears live longer if they fast?

Do you know how many bears DON'T make it thru the winter?

Since you helped write the book, you should be able to explain a few benefits that would not be obtained in CR.

One of my main objectives is to lose weight, especially nitrogen SLOWLY.

Do you have data (angiograms) on the starvation effects on the heart muscle if weight is lost to quickly?

Do we know the long term mortality of a quick weight loss?

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: Jeff Novick

Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 7:16 AM

Subject: RE: [ ] Re: oops sorry, i would like to do a fast...

Also, in regard to the "evidence" in humans and animals. I gave the most recent studies. Each of them have a decent reference list of other studies. Also, Furmans first book is full of references in the back. I know, I spent years helping him obtain them. Evidence? Do we not see the bear, (as many other animals) fast for several months each year, quite safely. And emerge from its rest in quite remarkable health? IS not everyone, who is practiving CRON, in effect, experimenting on themselves, and by many, considered quacks? While there is animal data, there is little if any, good human data on any reasonable amount of subjects. SOme of the benfits to fasting "may" be beyond the reduction in calories I can speak for Dr Fuhrman, but there are many reasons why your email may not have been answered appropriately. Usually , he directs people to his first book, where the references are listed. I have PDF of some of the studies if you need them. Jeff

[Guest guest]

>> Since you helped write the book, you should be able to explain a few

benefits that would not be obtained in CR.

I didnt help write the book, I helped obtain data for the book. How we used the

data and or interpreted was up to him, not me. I also did some analysis of

meals for the book and provided him with the data

[Guest guest]



One benefit that comes to mind is to reset gut biotics without resorting to anti-biotics. Another as a technique to reduce average caloric intake by for example fasting one day a week.

Note: I do not advocate nor practice regular fasts, but there's a pretty long list of things that I "don't" do without prejudice.

JR

-----Original Message-----From: jwwright [mailto:jwwright@...]Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 1:38 PM Subject: Re: [ ] oops sorry, i would like to do a fast...

I've looked at a lot of resources for "the benefits of fasting", a phrase used often in Fuhrman's book and not elucidated. Could you list a few "benefits" that cannot be achieved with a less stringent weight reduction?

AFAIC, the book is an advertisement for his clinic.

I don't recall Ornish, et al, recommending fasting, or their diets being anything like starvation.

What is a "hardest case"?

Recognize that while Walford "noticed" fasting, he did say the metabolism is prompted to be higher not lower as achieved in CR. I want my metabolism to be lower constantly. To me that's opposite of the starvation plan.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: Jeff Novick

Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 6:53 AM

Subject: RE: [ ] oops sorry, i would like to do a fast...

>> If that's what this Dr. Fuhrman suggests, why would you want to follow the advice of some quack advocating something so dangerous? With all due respect.... I personally know dr fuherman and helped him with his last 2 books. He is definitely not a quack. Nor is fasting, under the right conditions and for the right reasons, dangerous. In fact, quite the opposite. The advice of his book is good sound nutrition. His nutritional recommnedations are not much different than what Pritikin, Ornish, McDougall, Walford, , and etc etc recommends. He has written a seperate book called Fasting and Eating For Health, which I would recommend to anyone who would like to fast. We sit on an advisory board together and I send all my hardest cases to him. For most people, it is safe however it is not someting I would try at home or alone nor is it something I would do for weight loss, or without a true medical reason justifying it.

Jeff

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[Guest guest]

>>> I don't recall Ornish, et al, recommending fasting, or their diets being

anything like starvation

Again, you are confusing two things. I said furmans " dietary " recommendations

were similar to ornish, pritikin, walford, jenkins, etc, I didnt say they all

advocated fasting. Nor did I say furman advocated fasting as a long term

dietary strategy. Nor was the orignal question asked in that regard, but as a

short term way of getting started. I did say there may be some medical

reasons that fasting may benefit. I wouldnt call what someone engages in on a

rare occasion for 1 day, 3 day, 14 days, let alone, 30 as being a dietary

strategy.

>> What is a " hardest case " ?

I deal with a lot of HTN, CVD, DB, Obesity, Metabolic Syndrome, Osteo,

Athritits, and some Cancers. There are many diseases we dont deal with here.

I just sent him someone with Graves disease. I have recommended others with

other diseases not in my list.

>> Recognize that while Walford " noticed " fasting, he did say the metabolism is

prompted to be higher not lower as achieved in CR. I want my metabolism to be

lower constantly. To me that's opposite of the starvation plan.

Fasting in humans has been shown to lower metabolism both during and immediately

after.

Jeff

[Guest guest]



The "benefits" remain elusive. Several months ago I had the same discussion with another CRONie, and found that searching for "fasting" - not easy because it's confused with "fasting glucose", eg, in medical refs.

I found today:

Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2004 May 27 [Epub ahead of print]

Modeling of lipid and protein depletion during total starvation.Caloin M.

"The most characteristic results derived from these simulations concern the kinetics of protein depletion, which depend markedly on initial adiposity. Accordingly, in obese subjects the rate of protein losses remains fairly constant during fasting, whereas it increases from the onset of the fast in lean subjects, in agreement with experimental observations. In the model, protein and lipid depletion rates are both proportional to energy expenditure, which needs to be confirmed from complementary data."

What this tells me is that they are just now getting a math model representing what actually happens to a person starved. That maybe will lead to an intake that will optimize the weight loss, whatever, and retaining muscle, BMD, for an individual. Especially we need to know what the mortality and lifespan is (probably not party of the model yet).

Regards

----- Original Message -----

From: Jeff Novick

Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 2:32 PM

Subject: RE: [ ] Re: oops sorry, i would like to do a fast...

>> Since you helped write the book, you should be able to explain a few benefits that would not be obtained in CR. I didnt help write the book, I helped obtain data for the book. How we used the data and or interpreted was up to him, not me. I also did some analysis of meals for the book and provided him with the data

[Guest guest]



So I conclude that "fasting" is a medical protocol in some cases of "HTN, CVD, DB, Obesity, Metabolic Syndrome, Osteo, Athritits, and some Cancers", et al. Agree.

And not a "a dietary strategy". Agree.

Allow me to add - not a strategy for life extension - yet.

I mean, I wouldn't think a 150#, 5' 10", healthy male would do fasting to extend lifespan. But he might eat less calories and hold his weight in that hope. I'm not convinced we have to get weight x% below "set point" because I don't know how to define set point, yet. He might also plan to lower weight as he gets older (70-100).

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: Jeff Novick

Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 3:04 PM

Subject: RE: [ ] oops sorry, i would like to do a fast...

>>> I don't recall Ornish, et al, recommending fasting, or their diets being anything like starvation Again, you are confusing two things. I said furmans "dietary" recommendations were similar to ornish, pritikin, walford, jenkins, etc, I didnt say they all advocated fasting. Nor did I say furman advocated fasting as a long term dietary strategy. Nor was the orignal question asked in that regard, but as a short term way of getting started. I did say there may be some medical reasons that fasting may benefit. I wouldnt call what someone engages in on a rare occasion for 1 day, 3 day, 14 days, let alone, 30 as being a dietary strategy. >> What is a "hardest case"? I deal with a lot of HTN, CVD, DB, Obesity, Metabolic Syndrome, Osteo, Athritits, and some Cancers. There are many diseases we dont deal with here. I just sent him someone with Graves disease. I have recommended others with other diseases not in my list. >> Recognize that while Walford "noticed" fasting, he did say the metabolism is prompted to be higher not lower as achieved in CR. I want my metabolism to be lower constantly. To me that's opposite of the starvation plan. Fasting in humans has been shown to lower metabolism both during and immediately after. Jeff

[Guest guest]

>> So I conclude that " fasting " is a medical protocol in some cases of " HTN,

CVD, DB, Obesity, Metabolic Syndrome, Osteo, Athritits, and some Cancers " , et

al. Agree.

I dont know. I dont run a fasting center.

>>> And not a " a dietary strategy " . Agree.

Agreed

>> Allow me to add - not a strategy for life extension - yet.

Agreed