RE: Re: fasting for long periods (was Re: YourDaily eating Habits)

[Guest guest]

>>In the spirit of healthy debate, you can't dismiss Walford's studies on

rats and then mention that " bears hibernate " (and that they fast during

their hibernation) to bolster the argument that it's beneficial for humans

to fast.

I didnt dismiss Walfords studies, I just asked outside of his studies, where is

the hard human evidence in response to " your " request for the same. My

comment about the bears was in response to Rodneys question about " any " evidence

in animal or humans. I was trying to keep the debate healthy I think we

owe both ends of the arugment equal justice in both situations.

My real question was that while there were some rats who lost weight rapidly and

didnt do as well, I dont see how that applies accross the board to all cases in

humans. Actually, we dont see that in humans, unless the restriction and weight

loss is due to unhealhy means and for unhealthy reasons (ie: anorexia). Those

who survived the concentration camps and severe calorie restiction and weight

loss " without " optimal nutrition, have not shown increased health problems later

on, in fact, we see the opposite in those who survived. Of course, as someone

mentioned, those that survived had a strong will to live.

Jeff

[Guest guest]

Bears hibernating was probably a bad example, because I recall a tv program where a scientist was actually feeding a bear thru the winter to keep it healthier, and that was because of the high mortality (like 35%).

But the studies of CR have been going on for many years, not just Walford. True it may not extend life, in fact some CRONies are encountering what I would call problems with their regimen.

In selling something like "fasting" the debater often says "well, you do CR", eg. That has nothing to do with the hazards of fasting, which you have now pointed out several times "do not do this at home". A more notable diet is the rice diet, in use since at least 1940, at Duke Univ. It's not done "at home" either and those folks eat 700 kcals.

So the "debate" as you call it boils down to whether we should go to a clinic for some reason.

All the folks on CR, I would venture, are doing CR "at home", although we do get routine tests. I don't recall anyone suggesting very low calorie diets for CR. Any many have the idea the caloric reduction should be slow. That's mainly because no one knows what damage occurs long term. If I lose 1% of heart muscle that's equivalent to one year of life.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: Jeff Novick

Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 9:33 AM

Subject: RE: [ ] Re: fasting for long periods (was Re: YourDaily eating Habits)

>>In the spirit of healthy debate, you can't dismiss Walford's studies onrats and then mention that "bears hibernate" (and that they fast duringtheir hibernation) to bolster the argument that it's beneficial for humansto fast. I didnt dismiss Walfords studies, I just asked outside of his studies, where is the hard human evidence in response to "your" request for the same. My comment about the bears was in response to Rodneys question about "any" evidence in animal or humans. I was trying to keep the debate healthy I think we owe both ends of the arugment equal justice in both situations.My real question was that while there were some rats who lost weight rapidly and didnt do as well, I dont see how that applies accross the board to all cases in humans. Actually, we dont see that in humans, unless the restriction and weight loss is due to unhealhy means and for unhealthy reasons (ie: anorexia). Those who survived the concentration camps and severe calorie restiction and weight loss "without" optimal nutrition, have not shown increased health problems later on, in fact, we see the opposite in those who survived. Of course, as someone mentioned, those that survived had a strong will to live. Jeff

[Guest guest]

>> Bears hibernating was probably a bad example,

I might agree.

> True it may not extend life, in fact some CRONies are encountering what I

would call problems with their regimen.

Agreed. I've seen it, and hear it here and experience it myself. That was

part of my point, we are the great experiment.

>> A more notable diet is the rice diet, in use since at least 1940, at Duke

Univ. It's not done " at home " either and those folks eat 700 kcals.

Again, I agree. Walter Kempner is the " pappa " of many of the dietary regmes

today.

>> So the " debate " as you call it boils down to whether we should go to a clinic

for some reason.

No, I think you are asking things out of context. The original question was

about fasting, and peoples experience with it. The intial response was quackery

and dangerous. I responded to these points. Fasting if done right is not

dangerous. There is medical data on long term fasts. If you are worred

about the effects of long term fasting, go to a fasting clinic where you can be

supervised and learn. I did my first few fasts and did all the others myself

secluded away. I didnt think it was fair to call Fuhrman a " quack " without

knowing more about him or what he does. His books are actually recommended on

some CRON websites. I also think the attack on fasting was unjustfied as there

are studies and benefits reported from fasting. The question wasnt wether or

not they can be also be acheived through CR-ON. Or if one was better than the

other. The person who asked, asked about fasting as a " jump start " to CR-ON,

not as a replacement.

Jeff

[Guest guest]

What other CRON websites recommend is not necessarily relevant or germane to

the discussion. Please remember that amongst us are real-live examples of

CRONIES who have damaged their health with extreme practises which have led

to anorexia, osteoporosis, etc.

I was the one who called Fuhrman a quack and it's true that I have not read

his book and don't know anything about him. So I apologize.

Nevertheless, I hope anyone contemplating anything like this will be careful

and prudent. IMHO you can't go wrong if you err on the side of " slow and

steady " rather than " fast and extreme " (unless you are so obese, that time

is of the essence).

on 6/9/2004 3:43 PM, Jeff Novick at jnovick@... wrote:

> No, I think you are asking things out of context. The original question was

> about fasting, and peoples experience with it. The intial response was

> quackery and dangerous. I responded to these points. Fasting if done right

> is not dangerous. There is medical data on long term fasts. If you are

> worred about the effects of long term fasting, go to a fasting clinic where

> you can be supervised and learn. I did my first few fasts and did all the

> others myself secluded away. I didnt think it was fair to call Fuhrman a

> " quack " without knowing more about him or what he does. His books are

> actually recommended on some CRON websites. I also think the attack on

> fasting was unjustfied as there are studies and benefits reported from

> fasting. The question wasnt wether or not they can be also be acheived

> through CR-ON. Or if one was better than the other. ! ; The person who

> asked, asked about fasting as a " jump start " to CR-ON, not as a replacement.

>

> Jeff