Re: Re: Using the VitaMix with CR (carrots)

[Guest guest]

citpeks wrote:

>I recall reading on this board postings from members who indicated that they

felt hypoglycemic shortly after eating. They attributed this to the increase of

insulin as a reaction to the food. I would like to hypothesize that if these

people ate more slowly (e.g., 1/5 of

>their food every 10 minutes) they would have smaller insulin spikes that would

not cause hypoglycemia. These people should also stay away from finely ground

foods, smoothies, etc.

>

>

I get hypoglycemic but have a slightly varying theory... that the

hypoglycemia is the due to fast drop in BG while there is still insulin

present. (??) Still, I agree with your " treatment " therapy to avoid

spike, slow feedings. My doctor says that the spikes will be reduced

when there is sufficient fiber. In my case, the hypoglycemia occurs

after my BG is very low before I eat .... when I haven't eaten many

carby foods for awhile, & then eat an apple, I'm prone to that

reaction... need to space that apple eating out over longer time.

>It seems to me that since diabetes is associated with chronic carbohydrate

overloads, it may be better to avoid glucose spikes by not grinding food. What

do you think?

>

I suspect this is true, at least in part. I'm just not sure about ALL

food ... seems natural that it would depend of the type of food & carb

content to begin with. Would be great if there were a study about the

leafy greens, celery, etc.

I would also like to know the answers to your other questions.

[Guest guest]

This one has sometimes been called one of the " classics " . notice, that though

glucose levels didnt change much, insulin levels did. This is overlooked in

using just GI/GL

Lancet. 1977 Oct 1;2(8040):679-82.

Depletion and disruption of dietary fibre. Effects on satiety, plasma-glucose,

and serum-insulin.

Haber GB, Heaton KW, D, Burroughs LF.

Ten normal subjects ingested test meals based on apples, each containing 60 g

available carbohydrate. Fibre-free juice could be consumed eleven times faster

than intact apples and four times faster than fibre-disrupted puree. Satiety was

assessed numerically. With the rate of ingestion equalised, juice was

significantly less satisfying than puree, and puree than apples. Plasma-glucose

rose to similar levels after all three meals. However, there was a striking

rebound fall after juice, and to a lesser extent after puree, which was not seen

after apples. Serum-insulin rose to higher levels after juice and puree than

after apples. The removal of fibre from food, and also its physical disruption,

can result in faster and easier ingestion, decreased satiety, and disturbed

glucose homoeostasis which is probably due to inappropriate insulin release.

These effects favour overnutrition and, if often repeated, might lead to

diabetes mellitus.

This one deals with the stages of refinement and the response.

Am J Clin Nutr. 1988 Apr;47(4):675-82.

Particle size of wheat, maize, and oat test meals: effects on plasma glucose and

insulin responses and on the rate of starch digestion in vitro.

Heaton KW, Marcus SN, Emmett PM, Bolton CH.

University Department of Medicine, Bristol Royal Infirmary, UK.

When normal volunteers ate isocaloric wheat-based meals, their plasma insulin

responses (peak concentration and area under curve) increased stepwise: whole

grains less than cracked grains less than coarse flour less than fine flour.

Insulin responses were also greater with fine maizemeal than with whole or

cracked maize grains but were similar with whole groats, rolled oats, and fine

oatmeal. The peak-to-nadir swing of plasma glucose was greater with wheat flour

than with cracked or whole grains. In vitro starch hydrolysis by pancreatic

amylase was faster with decreasing particle size with all three cereals.

Correlation with the in vivo data was imperfect. Oat-based meals evoked smaller

glucose and insulin responses than wheat- or maize-based meals. Particle size

influences the digestion rate and consequent metabolic effects of wheat and

maize but not oats. The increased insulin response to finely ground flour may be

relevant to the etiology of diseases associated with hyperinsulinemia and to the

management of diabetes.

[Guest guest]

Why would one remove the fiber from food? The fiber is still there

with the Vita Mixer.

Jeff Novick wrote:

>Lancet. 1977 Oct 1;2(8040):679-82.

>

>Depletion and disruption of dietary fibre. Effects on satiety, plasma-glucose,

and serum-insulin.

>

>Haber GB, Heaton KW, D, Burroughs LF.

>

>Ten normal subjects ingested test meals based on apples, each containing 60 g

available carbohydrate. Fibre-free juice could be consumed eleven times faster

than intact apples and four times faster than fibre-disrupted puree. Satiety was

assessed numerically. With the rate of ingestion equalised, juice was

significantly less satisfying than puree, and puree than apples. Plasma-glucose

rose to similar levels after all three meals. However, there was a striking

rebound fall after juice, and to a lesser extent after puree, which was not seen

after apples. Serum-insulin rose to higher levels after juice and puree than

after apples. The removal of fibre from food, and also its physical disruption,

can result in faster and easier ingestion, decreased satiety, and disturbed

glucose homoeostasis which is probably due to inappropriate insulin release.

These effects favour overnutrition and, if often repeated, might lead to

diabetes mellitus.

>

>

[Guest guest]

>>>Why would one remove the fiber from food? The fiber is still there

with the Vita Mixer.

Your original question was on disrupting fiber as in blending with the Vita Mix.

In the first study, it wasnt fiber removed vs fiber intact. In this study, one

test meal was fiber intact, one was fiber disrupted (blended) the third was

fiber removed.

I beleive you also inquired about the impact of paricle size. In the second

study addressed this, along with varying degress of " disruption " .

[Guest guest]

I think you are misunderstanding what I have said. The question focused

particle size with respect to low carb or " free foods " . Not fruit, or

foods with high carb content.

Jeff Novick wrote:

>Your original question was on disrupting fiber as in blending with the Vita

Mix. In the first study, it wasnt fiber removed vs fiber intact. In this

study, one test meal was fiber intact, one was fiber disrupted (blended) the

third was fiber removed.

>

>I beleive you also inquired about the impact of paricle size. In the second

study addressed this, along with varying degress of " disruption " .

>

>

[Guest guest]

High insulin levels are related to increased insulin resistance and type II

diabetes. After that I'm not sure how much damage is from high insulin or

high sugar.

Reducing insulin and blood sugar should be clearly healthy but AFAIK is not

the primary mechanism behind LE. It surely is part of the reason CRON avoids

so many lifestyle illnesses.

JR

-----Original Message-----

From: citpeks [mailto:citpeks@...]

Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 8:50 AM

Subject: [ ] Re: Using the VitaMix with CR (carrots)

>>>

From: " Jeff Novick " <jnovick@p...>

Date: Sun Jun 27, 2004 5:37 pm

Subject: RE: [ ] Re: Using the VitaMix with CR (carrots)

This one has sometimes been called one of the " classics " . notice, that

though glucose levels didnt change much, insulin levels did. This is

overlooked in using just GI/GL

Lancet. 1977 Oct 1;2(8040):679-82.

Depletion and disruption of dietary fibre. Effects on satiety,

plasma-glucose,

and serum-insulin. ...

>>>

At the risk of grinding this topic to death, I would like to raise

some additional questions about food administration and insulin

spikes. The article from Nature, below, indicates that life can be

extended when insulin-like signaling can be inhibited. This seems to

imply that the presence of insulin accelerates aging.

If the longevity achieved by caloric restriction is due to the

decrease of insulin in the blood, the following conclusions might be

possible:

1) Intermittent fasting without reduction of calories may indeed work

because on the fasting days there is no insulin in the blood. So, on

the day that you eat there is insulin in the blood and on the fasting

day there is none.

2) Caloric restriction works because the level of insulin in

constantly kept at low levels, thus preventing insulin-caused aging.

3) Eating regularly spaced meals may be a bad strategy for life

extension because the level of insulin would only drop to zero at

night.

4) The people who are eating only one meal a day, as mentioned by some

people in this group, may have a longevity advantage over those who

eat regularly spaced meals because insulin is completely depleted by

the time they take their next meal.

Does this make sense?

Tony

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[Guest guest]

Thanks, Tony, I think that's a better question. Except, I think the insulin level is probably geared to my energy level. If I fasted a day, it'd be one of those days I didn't get out of bed.

Looking at the system, it's hard for me to single out any one parameter, because energy output, BG, insulin, replacement of stored gly, are all tied together.

I think if I eat a ground up turnip green it gets digested by the enzymes and absorbed at whatever rate it can do that and is just assisted by the grinder. If my teeth happen to be pretty good and I chew for a while it might be very similar to the grinder/blender.

The body needs a certain amount of glucose for energy (in non atkins mode), and that glucose has to be supported by insulin. AS I understand it, If there's a spike in insulin, it's to compensate for the spike in BG. I'm assuming no metabolic disorder. In a perfect system, the pancreas might react to the absorbed food immediately, and BG held constant and the absorption might be controlled to only allow a rate the pancreas can support.

I'm sure the body reacts to certain foods like sugar, starch quickly since they can be acted on by enzymes in the mouth. Nature provided a quick energy source. It might be that when we abuse the design that we encounter higher levels of BG or insulin. But I have difficulty thinking that a blender abuses that design that much, by the mere chopping of the food (food being greens, not potatoes, not sugar, not a pure juice, not rice).

I have done an interesting experiment. Warren talked about smoothing the soup, so I decided to do it beforehand. I chopped a pound of cabbage, and a pound of turnip greens in a small food processor to a size about 1/16". I put that in water to cook like I would cook fresh turnip greens, maybe a quart.

The result was unexpected. The greens and cabbage sucked up all the water and I had to add more (thinking I wanted soup). I added until I had at least 6 quarts of mush and it never cooked down the way whole greens will collapse. This explained why I had trouble eating 6 oz of greens raw with 6 oz of steamed broccoli. They suck up a lot of water in the gut and they don't get enough to completely digest (in my case).

Conceivably this might explain the observed higher BG rise observed eating blended greens, taking measurements after a meal. Blending will add a lot of water aiding metabolism.

But that also allows me to adjust the quantity down to what my gut can handle.

Just musing. Actually, I get my greens the way my wife cooks them. And a vitamix costs too much for a blender. Unless it can grind up those raspberry/blackberry/tomato seeds, I don't need one.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: citpeks

Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 8:50 AM

Subject: [ ] Re: Using the VitaMix with CR (carrots)

At the risk of grinding this topic to death, I would like to raisesome additional questions about food administration and insulinspikes. The article from Nature, below, indicates that life can beextended when insulin-like signaling can be inhibited. This seems toimply that the presence of insulin accelerates aging.If the longevity achieved by caloric restriction is due to thedecrease of insulin in the blood, the following conclusions might bepossible:1) Intermittent fasting without reduction of calories may indeed workbecause on the fasting days there is no insulin in the blood. So, onthe day that you eat there is insulin in the blood and on the fastingday there is none.2) Caloric restriction works because the level of insulin inconstantly kept at low levels, thus preventing insulin-caused aging.3) Eating regularly spaced meals may be a bad strategy for lifeextension because the level of insulin would only drop to zero atnight.4) The people who are eating only one meal a day, as mentioned by somepeople in this group, may have a longevity advantage over those whoeat regularly spaced meals because insulin is completely depleted bythe time they take their next meal.Does this make sense?Tony