Re: What is Caloric Restriction?

[Guest guest]

Sorry about the delay. There appears to be a bit of a problem with the CR

Society list archive search. I'll have to attempt the search again later!

>From: " Dowling " <dowlic@...>

>Reply-

>

>Subject: Re: [ ] What is Caloric Restriction?

>Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 14:49:33 +0000

>

>Agreed: I should present the evidence or argument, rather than the

>attribution to a source. I'm still searching for the specifics regarding

>this issue...

>

>

> >From: Francesca Skelton <fskelton@...>

> >Reply-

> >< >

> >Subject: Re: [ ] What is Caloric Restriction?

> >Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 10:34:53 -0400

> >

> >I never said that info gleaned from other forums should be withheld.

>This

> >is what I said:

> >

> > " However, if there is something scientific that which is of relevance,

>by

> >all means post the study or reference (rather than " says this or

> >Dean says this " ) . "

> >

> >And this is what you originally said:

> > > > Perhaps, but Rae has made the point that intermittend

>fasting

> > > > without overall CR has not been shown to increase lifespan.

> >____________________________________________________________

> >

> > said:

> >

> >I do think information gleaned from other forums of discussion should not

> >be

> >withheld from discussion in this forum, just because it might be viewed

>as

> > " extreme " or from an source outside of the membership of this forum. In

>my

> >opinion, free speech regarding all these topics from all sources

>available

> >(within some degree of reason and acceptability) is the most productive

> >form

> >of discourse.

> >

> > > > Perhaps, but Rae has made the point that intermittend

>fasting

> > > > without overall CR has not been shown to increase lifespan.

> > >

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

Perhaps?

On the diet front at least, Mattson is well aware that other people findit tough to match his self-control. One of his goals is to find ways inwhich people can reap the potential benefits of caloric restrictionwithout abandoning food. As part of this, he plans to launch the firsthuman intervention trial of intermittent fasting this summer. To mimicthe laboratory animals' fasting regimen, subjects recruited to the trialwill eat only one big meal a day for two months, while researchersmonitor their blood cholesterol, blood sugar and other health indicators.Pearson H.Profile: Mark Mattson.Nat Med. 2004 Apr;10(4):324. No abstract available.PMID: 15057216

----- Original Message -----

From: Dowling

Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2004 6:59 PM

Subject: Re: [ ] What is Caloric Restriction?

Sorry about the delay. There appears to be a bit of a problem with the CR Society list archive search. I'll have to attempt the search again later!>From: " Dowling" <dowlic@...>>Reply- > >Subject: Re: [ ] What is Caloric Restriction?>Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 14:49:33 +0000>>Agreed: I should present the evidence or argument, rather than the>attribution to a source. I'm still searching for the specifics regarding>this issue...>>> >From: Francesca Skelton <fskelton@...>> >Reply- > >< >> >Subject: Re: [ ] What is Caloric Restriction?> >Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 10:34:53 -0400> >> >I never said that info gleaned from other forums should be withheld. >This> >is what I said:

[Guest guest]

Some support for intermittent fasting as a method of life extension:

Mech Ageing Dev 2000 May 18;115(1-2):61-71

Influence of short-term repeated fasting on the longevity of female (NZB x

NZW)F1 mice.

Sogawa H, Kubo C.

Department of Psychosomatic Medicine, Graduate School of Medical Sciences,

Kyushu University, 3-1-1 Maidashi, Higashi-ku, 812-8582, Fukuoka, Japan.

sogawa@...

Caloric restriction in rodents is well known to retard the rate of aging,

increase mean and maximum life-spans, and inhibit the occurrence of many

age-associated diseases. However, little is known about the influence of

short-term repeated fasting on longevity. In this study, female (NZB x

NZW)F1 mice were used to test the physiological effect of short-term

repeated fasting (4 consecutive days, every 2 weeks). The results showed

that fasting mice survived significantly longer than the full-fed mice, in

spite of the fasting group having a heavier body weight than the control

group. Mean survival times for fasting and control mice were 64.0+/-15.3 and

47.9+/-9.4 weeks, respectively. Short-term repeated fasting manipulation was

also effective on the prolongation of life-span in autoimmune-prone mice.

>From: " Dowling " <dowlic@...>

>Reply-

>

>Subject: Re: [ ] What is Caloric Restriction?

>Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 23:59:29 +0000

>

>Sorry about the delay. There appears to be a bit of a problem with the CR

>Society list archive search. I'll have to attempt the search again later!

>

>

> >From: " Dowling " <dowlic@...>

> >Reply-

> >

> >Subject: Re: [ ] What is Caloric Restriction?

> >Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 14:49:33 +0000

> >

> >Agreed: I should present the evidence or argument, rather than the

> >attribution to a source. I'm still searching for the specifics regarding

> >this issue...

> >

> >

> > >From: Francesca Skelton <fskelton@...>

> > >Reply-

> > >< >

> > >Subject: Re: [ ] What is Caloric Restriction?

> > >Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 10:34:53 -0400

> > >

> > >I never said that info gleaned from other forums should be withheld.

> >This

> > >is what I said:

> > >

> > > " However, if there is something scientific that which is of relevance,

> >by

> > >all means post the study or reference (rather than " says this

>or

> > >Dean says this " ) . "

> > >

> > >And this is what you originally said:

> > > > > Perhaps, but Rae has made the point that intermittend

> >fasting

> > > > > without overall CR has not been shown to increase lifespan.

> > >____________________________________________________________

> > >

> > > said:

> > >

> > >I do think information gleaned from other forums of discussion should

>not

> > >be

> > >withheld from discussion in this forum, just because it might be viewed

> >as

> > > " extreme " or from an source outside of the membership of this forum.

>In

> >my

> > >opinion, free speech regarding all these topics from all sources

> >available

> > >(within some degree of reason and acceptability) is the most productive

> > >form

> > >of discourse.

> > >

> > > > > Perhaps, but Rae has made the point that intermittend

> >fasting

> > > > > without overall CR has not been shown to increase lifespan.

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks to JW for the following CR society post info regarding MR's

take on intermittent fasting/feeding and life extension:

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 20:39:27 -0700

Reply- crsociety@...

Sender: " The CR Society,

a group of people practicing Calorie Restriction for health

purposes. " <crsociety@...>

From: Rae <mikalra@...>

Subject: Re: Meal Spacing

Comments: crsociety@...

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

All:

Tim Tyler wrote:

>

>MR wrote:

>

> > First, tho' I expect this will just add to my doubtless

> > notorious reputation as a broken-record grump, I think it

> > should be noted yet again that not only is there is no good

> > evidence that increasing the temporal segregation of one's

> > meals will in any way improve the effects of CR, but in fact

> > the thesis has actually been disproven. See (1-3) for the

> > direct evidence, and a version of a post I made to CR

> > Society at (4) for some broader-ranging arguments &

> > discussion.

>

>Not enough data for any very convincing disproof - IMO.

>I think there's still plenty of room for hope for those

>seeking improvements via intermittent feeding - on the

>basis of the experiments showing some improvments in some

>biomarkers (relative to CR) during fasting.

But surely the direct lifespan data ((1-3), & related stuff in (4))

vastly trumps biochemical, mechanistic, make-the-case arguments.

>

>An intermittent regime seems likely to be more stressful.

Yes -- but that doesn't ipso facto make it better. As (4) noted, studies

seem to show that adding additional stressors to CR does not enhance the

hormetic response, despite the fact that they must be more

spychologically stressful; moreover, there seems to be no evidence that

hormesis actually slows aging or otherwise does anything than allow an

organism in a distinctly unfavorable environment to normalize its life

expectancy.

& even if you believe in hormesis: surely, again, the direct lifespan

data vastly trumps biochemical, mechanistic, make-the-case arguments.

>It took researchers a while to find out how best to

>implement CR regimes. Give the intermittent feeders some

>more time to experiment, and they may find an approach

>that makes intermittent feeding work best.

I don't buy this: CR seems to've worked from day 1 inweanlings. & it

seems that the only reason that it failed in older organisms was sheer

incompetence (nutritional deficiencies etc), corrected by Weindruch &

Walford at age 12 mo & by Spindler at age 19 mo.

-

>

>

> > 1. Masoro EJ, Shimokawa I, Higami Y, McMahan CA, Yu BP.

> > Temporal pattern of food intake not a factor in the retardation of

> > aging processes by dietary restriction.

> > J Gerontol A Biol Sci Med Sci. 1995 Jan;50A(1):B48-53.

> > PMID: 7814779; UI: 95114284

> >

> > 2. W.

> > Food restriction, circadian disorder and longevity of rats and mice.

> > J Nutr. 1988 Mar;118(3):286-9. Review.

> > PMID: 3280755; UI: 88171757

> >

> > 3. W, Halberg F.

> > Meal-timing, circadian rhythms and life span of mice.

> > J Nutr. 1986 Nov;116(11):2244-53.

> > PMID: 3794831; UI: 87085847

> >

> > 4. http://mailman.aaas.org/mailman/private/sagemail/20030803.txt

>--

>__________

> |im |yler http://timtyler.org/ tim@...

>From: " Dowling " <dowlic@...>

>Reply-

>

>Subject: Re: [ ] What is Caloric Restriction?

>Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 23:59:29 +0000

>

>Sorry about the delay. There appears to be a bit of a problem with the CR

>Society list archive search. I'll have to attempt the search again later!

>

>

> >From: " Dowling " <dowlic@...>

> >Reply-

> >

> >Subject: Re: [ ] What is Caloric Restriction?

> >Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 14:49:33 +0000

> >

> >Agreed: I should present the evidence or argument, rather than the

> >attribution to a source. I'm still searching for the specifics regarding

> >this issue...

> >

> >

> > >From: Francesca Skelton <fskelton@...>

> > >Reply-

> > >< >

> > >Subject: Re: [ ] What is Caloric Restriction?

> > >Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 10:34:53 -0400

> > >

> > >I never said that info gleaned from other forums should be withheld.

> >This

> > >is what I said:

> > >

> > > " However, if there is something scientific that which is of relevance,

> >by

> > >all means post the study or reference (rather than " says this

>or

> > >Dean says this " ) . "

> > >

> > >And this is what you originally said:

> > > > > Perhaps, but Rae has made the point that intermittend

> >fasting

> > > > > without overall CR has not been shown to increase lifespan.

> > >____________________________________________________________

> > >

> > > said:

> > >

> > >I do think information gleaned from other forums of discussion should

>not

> > >be

> > >withheld from discussion in this forum, just because it might be viewed

> >as

> > > " extreme " or from an source outside of the membership of this forum.

>In

> >my

> > >opinion, free speech regarding all these topics from all sources

> >available

> > >(within some degree of reason and acceptability) is the most productive

> > >form

> > >of discourse.

> > >

> > > > > Perhaps, but Rae has made the point that intermittend

> >fasting

> > > > > without overall CR has not been shown to increase lifespan.

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

I haven't looked at these references, but they pretty old by nutrition

standards. In fact two out of the three are from back in the '80's.

Perhaps we need to look to the upcoming studies referenced by Rodney today.

Just today I got an off-list e-mail from someone telling me that: " ......

Rae, of course--is a renowned and respected scientist who has

published serious articles in peer-reviewed journals. "

Afaik this is untrue. And I wonder how many people have this impression. If

I am mistaken and this is true, I hope someone will post these " serious

articles " because they would no doubt be of interest to us.

What I object to is worshipping at the feet of ANYONE and making them into

cult-like, infallible status as warned by Walford. Even reputable

scientists are often mistaken, which is why successful experiments must be

able to be duplicated by others.

on 8/2/2004 12:29 PM, Dowling at dowlic@... wrote:

>>> 1. Masoro EJ, Shimokawa I, Higami Y, McMahan CA, Yu BP.

>>> Temporal pattern of food intake not a factor in the retardation of

>>> aging processes by dietary restriction.

>>> J Gerontol A Biol Sci Med Sci. 1995 Jan;50A(1):B48-53.

>>> PMID: 7814779; UI: 95114284

>>>

>>> 2. W.

>>> Food restriction, circadian disorder and longevity of rats and mice.

>>> J Nutr. 1988 Mar;118(3):286-9. Review.

>>> PMID: 3280755; UI: 88171757

>>>

>>> 3. W, Halberg F.

>>> Meal-timing, circadian rhythms and life span of mice.

>>> J Nutr. 1986 Nov;116(11):2244-53.

>>> PMID: 3794831; UI: 87085847

>>>

>>> 4. http://mailman.aaas.org/mailman/private/sagemail/20030803.txt

>> --

>> __________

>> |im |yler http://timtyler.org/ tim@...

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I don't have his entire bibliography, but here's an article you can look over at your leisure:

http://dandini.ingentaselect.com/vl=1682746/cl=29/fm=docpdf/nw=1/rpsv/cw/mal/15491684/v7n1/s2/p3

Francesca Skelton <fskelton@...> wrote:

I haven't looked at these references, but they pretty old by nutritionstandards. In fact two out of the three are from back in the '80's.Perhaps we need to look to the upcoming studies referenced by Rodney today.Just today I got an off-list e-mail from someone telling me that: "...... Rae, of course--is a renowned and respected scientist who haspublished serious articles in peer-reviewed journals."Afaik this is untrue. And I wonder how many people have this impression. IfI am mistaken and this is true, I hope someone will post these "seriousarticles" because they would no doubt be of interest to us.What I object to is worshipping at the feet of ANYONE and making them intocult-like, infallible status as warned by Walford. Even reputablescientists are often mistaken, which is why successful

experiments must beable to be duplicated by others.on 8/2/2004 12:29 PM, Dowling at dowlic@... wrote:>>> 1. Masoro EJ, Shimokawa I, Higami Y, McMahan CA, Yu BP.>>> Temporal pattern of food intake not a factor in the retardation of>>> aging processes by dietary restriction.>>> J Gerontol A Biol Sci Med Sci. 1995 Jan;50A(1):B48-53.>>> PMID: 7814779; UI: 95114284>>> >>> 2. W.>>> Food restriction, circadian disorder and longevity of rats and mice.>>> J Nutr. 1988 Mar;118(3):286-9. Review.>>> PMID: 3280755; UI: 88171757>>> >>> 3. W, Halberg F.>>> Meal-timing, circadian rhythms and life span of mice.>>> J Nutr. 1986 Nov;116(11):2244-53.>>> PMID: 3794831; UI: 87085847>>> >>> 4. http://mailman.aaas.org/mailman/private/sagemail/20030803.txt>> -->> __________>> |im |yler http://timtyler.org/ tim@...> > > __________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

I'm not sure that I understand why so much energy is being spent on

exploring the credibility of Mr. Rae. My understanding is that he works in

the supplement industry and appears to be extremely knowledgeable about the

related science. I have no idea what his specific credentials are and have

learned from years of managing " professionals " that the letters after one's

name does little to predict the quality of the output.

I have followed the postings of Rae, Pomerleau, and others for years and

find them quite informative. I don't blindly follow anyone, Dr. Walford

included. The good doctor seems almost deified here and I'm sure he'd be the

first to object to that. As I've posted before IMO one of the more important

teachings from Dr. Walford's writing is how to properly evaluate

information.

Can we perhaps move beyond these ad hominum diversions and get back to CR?

JR

-----Original Message-----

From: Francesca Skelton [mailto:fskelton@...]

Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 12:07 PM

Subject: Re: [ ] What is Caloric Restriction?

I haven't looked at these references, but they pretty old by nutrition

standards. In fact two out of the three are from back in the '80's.

Perhaps we need to look to the upcoming studies referenced by Rodney today.

Just today I got an off-list e-mail from someone telling me that: " ......

Rae, of course--is a renowned and respected scientist who has

published serious articles in peer-reviewed journals. "

Afaik this is untrue. And I wonder how many people have this impression. If

I am mistaken and this is true, I hope someone will post these " serious

articles " because they would no doubt be of interest to us.

What I object to is worshipping at the feet of ANYONE and making them into

cult-like, infallible status as warned by Walford. Even reputable

scientists are often mistaken, which is why successful experiments must be

able to be duplicated by others.

>

>

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[Guest guest]

..42 W/H seems to me to be too low, at least for men. I would

suggest .44 W/H as optimal.

As far as a " gold standard " biomarker for CR, it is gene expression.

The gene-bested testing labs should be able to offer such a test once

market demand increases.

Walford does state that if your body temperature is 1.5 degrees below

normal, you're doing CR succesfully. That would be too low (without

supplementing) if you want to lose body fat, as that goal requires

lowering your calorie intake without slowing down your metabolism.

In the testing of resveratrol, there was no additional maximum

lifespan extension when given to CR mice. Thus, you can simply take

a resveratrol supplement (and niacinimide to help reinforce it) and

need not worry about whether or not you're exactly matching your BMR

+ any exercise.

Logan

--- In , " Rodney " <perspect1111@y...> >

> [For sake of example let's suppose that 'perfect CR', the status

that

> provides the highest maximal lifespan, is a WC/H of 0.42].

[Guest guest]

Absolutely!

on 8/2/2004 1:58 PM, john roberts at johnhrob@... wrote:

>

> Can we perhaps move beyond these ad hominum diversions and get back to CR?

>

> JR

>

>

[Guest guest]

What is the correct W/H for women?

> .42 W/H seems to me to be too low, at least for men. I would

> suggest .44 W/H as optimal.

>

> As far as a " gold standard " biomarker for CR, it is gene

expression.

> The gene-bested testing labs should be able to offer such a test

once

> market demand increases.

>

> Walford does state that if your body temperature is 1.5 degrees

below

> normal, you're doing CR succesfully. That would be too low

(without

> supplementing) if you want to lose body fat, as that goal requires

> lowering your calorie intake without slowing down your metabolism.

>

> In the testing of resveratrol, there was no additional maximum

> lifespan extension when given to CR mice. Thus, you can simply

take

> a resveratrol supplement (and niacinimide to help reinforce it)

and

> need not worry about whether or not you're exactly matching your

BMR

> + any exercise.

>

> Logan

>

> --- In , " Rodney "

<perspect1111@y...> >

> > [For sake of example let's suppose that 'perfect CR', the status

> that

> > provides the highest maximal lifespan, is a WC/H of 0.42].

[Guest guest]

I don't understand why you would take niacinimide to help

reinforce

the resveratrol?

My understanding is that niacinimide is a sirtuin inhibitor - the

exact opposite of resveratrol.

> In the testing of resveratrol, there was no additional maximum

> lifespan extension when given to CR mice. Thus, you can simply

take a resveratrol supplement (and niacinimide to help reinforce it)

[Guest guest]

Hi All,

Rae M.

It's never too late: calorie restriction is effective in older

mammals.

Rejuvenation Res. 2004 Spring;7(1):3-8. No abstract available.

PMID: 15256039 [PubMed - in process]

Cheers, Al Pater.

> I haven't looked at these references, but they pretty old by

nutrition

> standards. In fact two out of the three are from back in the '80's.

>

> Perhaps we need to look to the upcoming studies referenced by

Rodney today.

>

> Just today I got an off-list e-mail from someone telling me

that: " ......

> Rae, of course--is a renowned and respected scientist who

has

> published serious articles in peer-reviewed journals. "

>

> Afaik this is untrue.

[Guest guest]

MR's article is nice but isn't it a summary of those same old tests? A very nice summary, i might add, but he didn't do any new research did he?

BTW, is he a medcial dr?

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: old542000

Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 6:55 PM

Subject: [ ] Re: What is Caloric Restriction?

Hi All,Rae M. It's never too late: calorie restriction is effective in older mammals.Rejuvenation Res. 2004 Spring;7(1):3-8. No abstract available. PMID: 15256039 [PubMed - in process]Cheers, Al Pater.> I haven't looked at these references, but they pretty old by nutrition> standards. In fact two out of the three are from back in the '80's.> > Perhaps we need to look to the upcoming studies referenced by Rodney today.> > Just today I got an off-list e-mail from someone telling me that: "......> Rae, of course--is a renowned and respected scientist who has> published serious articles in peer-reviewed journals."> > Afaik this is untrue.

[Guest guest]

Hi All,

I believe he is doing his PhD at the University of Chicago.

Cheers, Al.

--- In , " jwwright " <jwwright@e...>

wrote:

>

> BTW, is he a medcial dr?

[Guest guest]

Resveratrol and CR both produce identical gene expression and

increased maximum lifespan, but, unfortunately, there is not an

exponetial increase in maximum lifespan by combining the two

protocols.

Thus, if one is concerned about eating " excess calories " on a CRON

diet above and beyond their BMR + exercise, the reservatrol taken as

insurance should make sure that the CR " fasting environment " is

maintained.

Logan

--- In , Francesca Skelton

> In the testing of resveratrol, there was no additional maximum

> >> lifespan extension when given to CR mice. Thus, you can simply

> > take

> >> a resveratrol supplement (and niacinimide to help reinforce it)

> > and

> >> need not worry about whether or not you're exactly matching your

> > BMR

> >> + any exercise.

[Guest guest]

It sounds like you're saying that reservatrol is the CR " pill " . I haven't

heard it expressed in quite such glowing terms (although we here are aware

of its' benefits). What have you got for evidence that reseratrol mimics

CR.

BTW it sounds like you're saying " drink wine " and you don't have to worry

about how much you eat.

on 8/3/2004 2:34 AM, loganruns73 at loganruns73@... wrote:

> Resveratrol and CR both produce identical gene expression and

> increased maximum lifespan, but, unfortunately, there is not an

> exponetial increase in maximum lifespan by combining the two

> protocols.

>

> Thus, if one is concerned about eating " excess calories " on a CRON

> diet above and beyond their BMR + exercise, the reservatrol taken as

> insurance should make sure that the CR " fasting environment " is

> maintained.

>

> Logan

>

[Guest guest]

> Resveratrol and CR both produce identical gene expression and

> increased maximum lifespan

Hi All,

Where is there proof that the resveratrol increase maximum lifespan

in animals higher in the evolutionary pathway than flies?

Cheers, Al.

[Guest guest]

Well, your response is an example of why I refuse to call resveratrol

(or metformin) that. Not until there are studies showing you can eat

like a pig, pop in a resveratrol or metformin pill, and still have

maximum lifespan extension as with CR. Then we can let the media

have a field day.

Sirtuin activators mimic caloric restriction and delay ageing in

metazoans.

Wood JG, Rogina B, Lavu S, Howitz K, Helfand SL, Tatar M, Sinclair D.

[1] Department of Pathology, Harvard Medical School, 77 Ave. Louis

Pasteur, Boston, Massachusetts 02115, USA [2] These authors

contributed equally to this work.

Caloric restriction extends lifespan in numerous species. In the

budding yeast Saccharomyces cerevisiae this effect requires Sir2

(ref. 1), a member of the sirtuin family of NAD(+)-dependent

deacetylases. Sirtuin activating compounds (STACs) can promote the

survival of human cells and extend the replicative lifespan of yeast.

Here we show that resveratrol and other STACs activate sirtuins from

Caenorhabditis elegans and Drosophila melanogaster, and extend the

lifespan of these animals without reducing fecundity. Lifespan

extension is dependent on functional Sir2, and is not observed when

nutrients are restricted. Together these data indicate that STACs

slow metazoan ageing by mechanisms that may be related to caloric

restriction.

Logan

> It sounds like you're saying that reservatrol is the CR " pill " . I

haven't

> heard it expressed in quite such glowing terms (although we here

are aware

> of its' benefits). What have you got for evidence that reseratrol

mimics

> CR.

>

> BTW it sounds like you're saying " drink wine " and you don't have to

worry

> about how much you eat.