Re: Type II Diabetes & CRON

[Guest guest]

Hi Lee:

Thank you for that extraordinarily interesting chart and details of

your experiments.

From your account it is clear that the meal timing and CRON are

absolutely critical elements of the successful 'system' you have

developed.

Do you have a similar analysis of the data for your sugar levels when

pursuing meal timing and CRON but without the exercise? In other

words, do you know how important the exercise is to your success, in

comparison with the other two variables?

Rodney.

--- In , " Lee A. Shurie " <lee@v...>

wrote:

> I finally organized several years of personal diet journals and

summarized

> the results of blood sugar testing done under various diet

regimens. If

> someone is interested the chart can be found here:

>

> http://shurie.com/lee/images/blood_sugar_chart.gif

>

> As a former Type II diabetic, I came upon CRON in a roundabout way.

Further

> information can be found here:

>

> http://shurie.com/lee/writing_defeat_diabetes.htm

>

> Best,

> Lee

[Guest guest]

Lee: this is extraordinary info. I have read your past posts on this

subject but until I saw this account and your chart, it didn't quite sink in

how you have accomplished going from poor health to excellent health. The

second link below has your complete log and the chart and will go into the

files so that all may benefit - especially since we have several diabetics

among our members.

Have you ever tried adding guar or fiber to your diet to control blood

sugar? I wonder if this is another method you could have used .

on 7/7/2004 12:48 AM, Lee A. Shurie at lee@... wrote:

> I finally organized several years of personal diet journals and summarized

> the results of blood sugar testing done under various diet regimens. If

> someone is interested the chart can be found here:

>

> http://shurie.com/lee/images/blood_sugar_chart.gif

>

> As a former Type II diabetic, I came upon CRON in a roundabout way. Further

> information can be found here:

>

> http://shurie.com/lee/writing_defeat_diabetes.htm

>

> Best,

> Lee

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Rodney -

Unfortunately I don't have that data. I introduced the additional exercise after the ADA diet but before CRON. It would be interesting information to have, but I am not planning to drop the exercise any time soon since it is a QOL issue for me. If I do I will keep records.

My suspicion is the exercise is much less of a factor than meal timing and the CRON diet. That suspicion is based on my personal experience though, and I don't have recorded facts to back it up.

Best regards,

Lee

-----Original Message-----From: Rodney [mailto:perspect1111@...]Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 4:22 AM Subject: [ ] Re: Type II Diabetes & CRONHi Lee:Thank you for that extraordinarily interesting chart and details of your experiments.From your account it is clear that the meal timing and CRON are absolutely critical elements of the successful 'system' you have developed.Do you have a similar analysis of the data for your sugar levels when pursuing meal timing and CRON but without the exercise? In other words, do you know how important the exercise is to your success, in comparison with the other two variables?Rodney.> I finally organized several years of personal diet journals and summarized> the results of blood sugar testing done under various diet regimens. If> someone is interested the chart can be found here:> > http://shurie.com/lee/images/blood_sugar_chart.gif> > As a former Type II diabetic, I came upon CRON in a roundabout way. Further> information can be found here:> > http://shurie.com/lee/writing_defeat_diabetes.htm> > Best,> Lee

[Guest guest]

Thank you Francesca. I am glad the information is interesting and of help. If it can contribute something of value to the members then I am happy to share it.

I tried high levels of fiber for several months, particularly after I read a couple of Dr. Bob Arnot's books. He is a big fiber advocate. I was at one time maintaining 60 to 80 gm. per day of fiber intake. It had a mediating effect on the blood sugar highs and lows, which helped me avoid the high spikes I had measured prior to that time. That was a worthwhile result. However, it did little to lower my average blood sugar levels. I felt it was a helpful addition to my diet, and Naturally with the CRON diet I still have a reasonable fiber intake. I have not tried guar, but during that time I emphasized the consumption of fiber from beans, oatmeal, and high-fiber cereals.

Best regards,

Lee

-----Original Message-----From: Francesca Skelton [mailto:fskelton@...]Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 7:10 AM Subject: Re: [ ] Type II Diabetes & CRONLee: this is extraordinary info. I have read your past posts on thissubject but until I saw this account and your chart, it didn't quite sink inhow you have accomplished going from poor health to excellent health. Thesecond link below has your complete log and the chart and will go into thefiles so that all may benefit - especially since we have several diabeticsamong our members.Have you ever tried adding guar or fiber to your diet to control bloodsugar? I wonder if this is another method you could have used .on 7/7/2004 12:48 AM, Lee A. Shurie at lee@... wrote:> I finally organized several years of personal diet journals and summarized> the results of blood sugar testing done under various diet regimens. If> someone is interested the chart can be found here:> > http://shurie.com/lee/images/blood_sugar_chart.gif> > As a former Type II diabetic, I came upon CRON in a roundabout way. Further> information can be found here:> > http://shurie.com/lee/writing_defeat_diabetes.htm> > Best,> Lee> > >

[Guest guest]

first congrats Lee... it's nice to see common sense rewarded. So much of the popular wisdom regarding nutrition is no very wise.

Dean Pomeroy a regular on another CR list has done a lot of experiments with micro-managing blood glucose and my recollection was the mild exercise immediately after eating was adequate to flatten out BG peaks.

That said I'd be more concerned with average than peak BG, and you probably don't want to lose the ability to deal with the peak from that one jelly donut you might eat a few years from now.

JR

PS Lee: I noticed a report about a new blood sugar monitoring technology that uses a variation on RFID where the frequency of the injected chip changes with local sugar environment... probably years away from market but pretty cool.

-----Original Message-----From: Lee A. Shurie [mailto:lee@...]Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 11:09 AM Subject: [ ] Re: Type II Diabetes & CRON

Rodney -

Unfortunately I don't have that data. I introduced the additional exercise after the ADA diet but before CRON. It would be interesting information to have, but I am not planning to drop the exercise any time soon since it is a QOL issue for me. If I do I will keep records.

My suspicion is the exercise is much less of a factor than meal timing and the CRON diet. That suspicion is based on my personal experience though, and I don't have recorded facts to back it up.

Best regards,

Lee

-----Original Message-----From: Rodney [mailto:perspect1111@...]Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 4:22 AM Subject: [ ] Re: Type II Diabetes & CRONHi Lee:Thank you for that extraordinarily interesting chart and details of your experiments.From your account it is clear that the meal timing and CRON are absolutely critical elements of the successful 'system' you have developed.Do you have a similar analysis of the data for your sugar levels when pursuing meal timing and CRON but without the exercise? In other words, do you know how important the exercise is to your success, in comparison with the other two variables?Rodney.> I finally organized several years of personal diet journals and summarized> the results of blood sugar testing done under various diet regimens. If> someone is interested the chart can be found here:> > http://shurie.com/lee/images/blood_sugar_chart.gif> > As a former Type II diabetic, I came upon CRON in a roundabout way. Further> information can be found here:> > http://shurie.com/lee/writing_defeat_diabetes.htm> > Best,> Lee

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[Guest guest]

Thanks very much, Lee,

A remarkable story.

I've just been doing BG measurements to see what some other CRONies were talking about. And your chart helps a great deal. My fasting BG is 82-85 and regardless what I eat, I've not been able to get it over 152, in fact 2.5 oz of sucrose got me 138 in 30 mins, and 119 an hour later. In fact, one of my biggest rises was with just 5 oz of steak - plain, no condiments. Quite confusing to me.

I don't have diabetes, so I know little about it.

I would like to clarify in my own mind when you say "defeated" diabetes, could I take that to mean you found a weight and food intake which balances your insulin availability?

Again thanks for that timely info.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: Lee A. Shurie

Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 11:48 PM

Subject: [ ] Type II Diabetes & CRON

I finally organized several years of personal diet journals and summarized the results of blood sugar testing done under various diet regimens. If someone is interested the chart can be found here:

http://shurie.com/lee/images/blood_sugar_chart.gif

As a former Type II diabetic, I came upon CRON in a roundabout way. Further information can be found here:

http://shurie.com/lee/writing_defeat_diabetes.htm

Best,

Lee

[Guest guest]

Type II, used to be called "adult onset" before kids started getting obese and it. It is not about the amount of insulin available per se but also the pattern of eating/ food choices and lack or exercise that aggravate a tendency for the body to become resistant to the ability of insulin to reduce BG levels.

I would suggest reading the classic Dr Rosedale lecture lecture from a seminar in Boulder '99. He specializes in diabetes and focuses on insulin metabolism....

http://www.rosedalemetabolics.com/moreinfo.asp

JR

PS: it looks like Rosedale is doing his own diet book too.... may be healthy but will it sell?

-----Original Message-----From: jwwright [mailto:jwwright@...]Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 2:05 PM Subject: Re: [ ] Type II Diabetes & CRON

Thanks very much, Lee,

A remarkable story.

I've just been doing BG measurements to see what some other CRONies were talking about. And your chart helps a great deal. My fasting BG is 82-85 and regardless what I eat, I've not been able to get it over 152, in fact 2.5 oz of sucrose got me 138 in 30 mins, and 119 an hour later. In fact, one of my biggest rises was with just 5 oz of steak - plain, no condiments. Quite confusing to me.

I don't have diabetes, so I know little about it.

I would like to clarify in my own mind when you say "defeated" diabetes, could I take that to mean you found a weight and food intake which balances your insulin availability?

Again thanks for that timely info.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: Lee A. Shurie

Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 11:48 PM

Subject: [ ] Type II Diabetes & CRON

I finally organized several years of personal diet journals and summarized the results of blood sugar testing done under various diet regimens. If someone is interested the chart can be found here:

http://shurie.com/lee/images/blood_sugar_chart.gif

As a former Type II diabetic, I came upon CRON in a roundabout way. Further information can be found here:

http://shurie.com/lee/writing_defeat_diabetes.htm

Best,

Lee

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[Guest guest]

>>>

From: " john roberts " <johnhrob@n...>

Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 3:54 pm

Subject: RE: Type II Diabetes & CRON

[snip]

I would suggest reading the classic Dr Rosedale lecture from a seminar

in Boulder '99. He specializes in diabetes and focuses on insulin

metabolism.... http://www.rosedalemetabolics.com/moreinfo.asp

>>>

Very informative lecture relating the role of insulin in carbohydrate

metabolism, its influence on other hormones, arterial plaque, etc.

Here are some passages that may be relevant for our CRON group:

.... about biomarkers for aging:

" If there is a single marker for lifespan, as they are finding in the

centenarian studies, it is insulin, specifically insulin

sensitivity. "

.... about Protein/fat/carbohydrate ratios:

" I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size

of the person, 25 percent to 30 percent of calories from protein, and

60 percent to 65 percent from fat. "

.... about carbohydrate cravings:

" I also put people on glutamine powder. Glutamine can act as a brain

fuel, so it helps eliminate carbohydrate cravings while they are in

that transition period. I like to give it to them at night, and I tell

them to use it whenever they feel they are craving carbohydrates. They

can put several grams into a little water and drink it and it helps

eliminate carbohydrate cravings between meals. "

[Guest guest]

Just a little nit-picking - tho I found the article very informative and

helpful - I couldn't get the numbers to add up to 100% on the

protein/fat/carb ratios no matter how I tried.

Canary Peg

http://www.rosedalemetabolics.com/moreinfo.asp

> >>>

>

> Very informative lecture relating the role of insulin in

carbohydrate

> metabolism, its influence on other hormones, arterial plaque,

etc.

> Here are some passages that may be relevant for our CRON

group:

> ... about Protein/fat/carbohydrate ratios:

>

> " I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on

the size

> of the person, 25 percent to 30 percent of calories from protein,

and

> 60 percent to 65 percent from fat. "

>

[Guest guest]

-----Original Message-----

From: john roberts [mailto:johnhrob@...]

Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 8:45 PM

Subject: RE: [ ] Re: Type II Diabetes & CRON

That's fine with me because IMO ratio's aren't meaningful. Energy doesn't

come proportionately from the macro-nutrients so every different amount of

energy restriction would require a unique and different macro-nutrient

ratio.

I'd base protein needs on lean body mass and activity level, then add

essential fats, carbohydrates should be nutritious veggies and some fruit.

Some suggest fat is the best fuel, I'm not ready to knock out all carbs but

haven't heard of too many carb based deficiencies, with the exception of

scurvy but that's really vitamins not carbs. I'd watch fat ratios (n-3 to

n-6) and let the macro-nutrient ratios fall wherever they fall....

Taking a wild guess Rosedale might lower the Carbs :-) but whatever.

JR

-----Original Message-----

From: Peg Diamond [mailto:enmuffins@...]

Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 7:19 PM

Subject: [ ] Re: Type II Diabetes & CRON

Just a little nit-picking - tho I found the article very informative and

helpful - I couldn't get the numbers to add up to 100% on the

protein/fat/carb ratios no matter how I tried.

Canary Peg

http://www.rosedalemetabolics.com/moreinfo.asp

> >>>

>

> Very informative lecture relating the role of insulin in

carbohydrate

> metabolism, its influence on other hormones, arterial plaque,

etc.

> Here are some passages that may be relevant for our CRON

group:

> ... about Protein/fat/carbohydrate ratios:

>

> " I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on

the size

> of the person, 25 percent to 30 percent of calories from protein,

and

> 60 percent to 65 percent from fat. "

>

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[Guest guest]

Clearly, he, like Atkins before him are trying to deal with a metabolic problem that probably all of us have, some more, some less. It appears that we never stop growing. The mechanism that provides we add a lot more weight after 30 or 40, needs to be controlled if we are to avoid obesity.

A lot of things happen about the time the kids are raised. Thyroid, whatever. I noticed that about 1980, age 45, that almost suddenly when I ran up 6 flights to the 4th floor, I became "winded". I had been running up those stairs for years. Almost like magic, I started getting winded. And I was adding weight. Mostly around the middle.

It wasn't like I didn't know about adding weight. I first noticed it from a photo in 1962 and I cut out breakfast, as the only means to curtail the growth. Whether the ratio of P/F/C means anything, I have no idea. From reports from various people, no one really has a handle on that.

I think the human body digests any of those, and if there is excess it stores the fat. If it doesn't have excess fat, it will make it from excess carbs, and if it needs carbs, it will make it from protein, excess or not. AND if it needs protein, it will make that too given a teaspoon of essential aminos.

Many docs have described the syndrome in detail. The very word "syndrome" means they don't know what the hxxx it is. If we take to a high fat diet, we will lose weight which is mostly water, ie, the gly will be burned down to a minimum and the water that floats that gly will be excreted. Then we see remarkable changes in weight - we "look" prettier.

But what is happening to the arteries? My observation is that the body still stores fat, and fat is stored in 100 kcals per 1/3 oz. We can store a lot of small amounts of fat in small places, like arteries. Look at a marbled steak. To get that, we pen up the steer so he doesn't get a lot of exercise, while we're over feeding him silage. His muscles actually have strings of fat inside the muscle. Not like the fat hanging on our belly, hips, thighs, or those "fillets" under the triceps, back of the knee. And if you look at a human heart filled with fat, it looks like the cells have filled with fat. Not just the coronaries or small arteries - the cells themselves fill with fat (per Timmis' "pocket picture guide - Cardiology").

We know how to add weight to an animal, - what we don't know is how to stop that mechanism that adds weight after we reach adulthood. So the practice of CR, as I see it, is a "drastic" measure to force our body out of that add-weight stage. Measurements of BG, BP, are just data to quantify the syndrome. Like body fat, BMI, et al, are just features of the total syndrome. They don't tell us what the diet should be.

There are and have been many docs try to deal with the problem and I don't see that any really know what it is. Dr Rosedale will produce yet another book, which tells me nothing. I think I have the choice to eat a high fat diet and get a stroke/heart attack, or eat a low fat diet and keep my BP down (since I'm not diabetic yet), and possibly forestall the stroke which I think is more likely in my family.

Lee's post is very informative to me. That plus the BG measurements I've been taking, indicate that MAYBE, I need to lose more weight. Down to that point where the parameters normalize, if there is one.

The problem is HOW to do it. I tend to lose muscle as fast as "fat". AFAIC, the technique of SAFE weight-loss has yet to be elucidated by the "experts". I mean, if they knew how to do it, first we wouldn't have fat docs, right? Second, they'd give us a single diet plan. Even the diabetes doctors don't agree yet, which to use. This is not a conspiracy to keep people fat - they just don't have a concensus.

So my approach was to analyze the hxxx out of it, like I do every thing else, and then try something. And the thing that gave me the RDA's of vitamins, minerals, aminos, and essential fatty acids without a lot of supplements was a low fat, low sodium, lacto-vegetarian diet, ala Ornish (Mar 2000). But that's just me - my body - my driver being high blood pressure.

And I did that to my satisfaction. Now I think there may be a next step. Because HTN is never cured and I'm sure that type 2 is never cured, just controlled. I'm also sure type 2 is something I want to prevent. I also want to prevent arterial fat.

"But I can't do it alone"

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: Peg Diamond

Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 7:19 PM

Subject: [ ] Re: Type II Diabetes & CRON

Just a little nit-picking - tho I found the article very informative and helpful - I couldn't get the numbers to add up to 100% on the protein/fat/carb ratios no matter how I tried.Canary Peg

[Guest guest]

Hi JW:

Well, based on what I think I have learned since I have been here

(including much from you) my bet, fwiw, is that you will no longer

have a BP issue when your WC/H gets down to 0.45, no matter how much

sodium you then consume.

You know how to do that safely ........... just eat a couple of

hundred calories a day less than you are burning off, until you get

to a WC/H of 0.45.

When you get there you may decide to continue a bit further. Or you

may decide, since your issue will by then have been resolved, to

stabilise at that point. But WC/H is what it is all about for you

(and me too) imo.

Just my take.

Rodney.

--- In , " jwwright " <jwwright@e...>

wrote:

> Clearly, he, like Atkins before him are trying to deal with a

metabolic problem that probably all of us have, some more, some

less. ............. Lee's post is very informative to me. That plus

the BG measurements I've been taking, indicate that MAYBE, I need to

lose more weight. Down to that point where the parameters normalize,

if there is one.

>

> The problem is HOW to do it. I tend to lose muscle as fast

as " fat " . AFAIC, the technique of SAFE weight-loss has yet to be

elucidated by the " experts " . And I did that to my satisfaction. Now I

think there may be a next step. Because HTN is never cured and I'm

sure that type 2 is never cured, just controlled. I'm also sure type

2 is something I want to prevent. I also want to prevent arterial

fat.

>

> " But I can't do it alone "

[Guest guest]

Hi JR:

I sure would like to see studies which show the effects, or their

absence, of variations in macronutrient ratios. Are there any which

have methodically varied the proportions to determine the effects?

It seems to me that the advocates of the various types of diets -

high fat, high carb, high protein - have never experimented with

anything except their own recommended formula!

Certainly, Spindler's recent mouse study persuaded me pretty

decisively that **starch** has no benefits except for those on the

point of starvation. ( would have reached Ten Ton Depot if he

had had additional starch (or fat or protein), even without all the

other nutrients he was drastically short of. Of course he still

would probably not have survived). Also the Warsaw study I just

posted seems to suggest starch is less than helpful.

Rodney.

> http://www.rosedalemetabolics.com/moreinfo.asp

> > >>>

> >

> > Very informative lecture relating the role of insulin in

> carbohydrate

> > metabolism, its influence on other hormones, arterial plaque,

> etc.

> > Here are some passages that may be relevant for our CRON

> group:

>

> > ... about Protein/fat/carbohydrate ratios:

> >

> > " I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on

> the size

> > of the person, 25 percent to 30 percent of calories from protein,

> and

> > 60 percent to 65 percent from fat. "

> >

>

>

>

>

> ________________________________________________________

> This email has been scanned by Internet Pathway's Email

> Gateway scanning system for potentially harmful content,

> such as viruses or spam. Nothing out of the ordinary was

> detected in this email. For more information, call

> 601-776-3355 or email support@n...

> ________________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Rodney,

I got my 36" shorts on right now. I slipped below 38" last week. The 40's are falling off.

0.45 = 31 "???

Just to show how confused the diets are, from Pizzorno, I offer one that most people haven't heard of, just for info - not recommending anything: Hope you guys are using html.

Pizzorno: Textbook of Natural Medicine, 2nd ed., Copyright © 1999

The high-carbohydrate, high plant-fiber (HCF) diet popularized by MD has substantial support and validation in the scientific literature as the diet of choice in the treatment of DM.[31] [32] [33] [34] [35] [36] It is high in cereal grains, legumes, and root vegetables and restricts simple sugar and fat intake. The caloric intake consists of 70–75% complex carbohydrates, 15–20% protein, and 10–25% fat, and the total fiber content is almost 100 g/day. The positive metabolic effects of the HCF diet are many:

• reduced postprandial hyperglycemia and delayed hypoglycemia

• increased tissue sensitivity to insulin

• reduced cholesterol and triglyceride levels with increased HDL cholesterol levels

• progressive weight reduction.

basically promotes two HCF diets:

• one for the initial treatment of the hospitalized patient which provides 70% of total calories from carbohydrate, 19% protein, and 11% fat, 50 mg/day of cholesterol and 35–49 g/day of dietary fiber per 1,000 kcal

• a home use, or maintenance, diet that provides 55–60% of total calories from carbohydrate, 20% protein, and 20–25% fat, 75–200 mg/day of cholesterol and 50 g/day of dietary fiber (approximately 25g/1,000 kcal).

On the home HCF diet, available carbohydrate calories come from grain products (50%), fruits and vegetables (48%), and skim milk (2%). Protein is provided by fruits and vegetables (50%), grain products (36%), and skim milk and lean meat (14%). The fat is derived from grain products (60%), fruits and vegetables (20%), and skim milk and meat (12%). The HCF diet is also based on the exchange system with more information and dietary guidelines available from the HCF Diabetes Research Foundation (1872 Blairmore Rd, Lexington, KY 40502).

Modified high-fiber content diet (MHCF)

In general, the HCF diet [38] and/or the Pritikin diet[39] are adequate for the treatment of diabetes mellitus. However, improvements can be made, primarily by substituting more natural (I.e. primitive or unprocessed) foods wherever possible in the HCF diet and avoiding some foods that have deleterious effects. The MHCF diet is higher in leguminous fibers than any of the other diets, limits processed grains, and excludes fruit juices, low-fiber fruits, skimmed milk and margarine.

TABLE 147-7 -- Typical menus for the HCF and MHCF diets

HCF diet

MHCF diet

Breakfast

Whole oats, 1 cup

Whole-wheat bread, 2 slices

Oat bran cereal, 1 cup

Skimmed milk, 1 cup

Yogurt, plain low fat, 1 cup

Grapefruit, ½

Blueberries, ½ cup

Margarine, 2 pats

Snack (morning or afternoon)

Whole grain flat bread cracker, 2

Yogurt, ½ cup

Fresh strawberries, 1 cup

Apple, 1 medium

Lunch

Whole wheat bread, 2 slices

Brown rice, cooked, ¾ cup

Kidney bean and rice casserole, 1 cup

Lentil soup, ½ cup

Kale, cooked, 1 cup

—carrot, 1 large

Cucumber and onion salad

—celery, ½ large

Potatoes, boiled, ½ cup

—onion, 1 cup

Margarine, 4 pats

—garlic, 1 clove

Dinner

Whole wheat bread, 2 slices

Whole grain bread, 1 slice

Blackberries, ¾ cup

Lima beans, 1 cup

Green beans, ¾ cup

Peas, ¾ cup

Tomato, 1 small

Tossed salad, 2 cups

Asparagus, steamed, 1 cup

Broccoli, ¾ cup

Squash, winter, 1 cup

Beef, roast, 115 g

Salmon, 115 g

Margarine, 4 pats

Butter, 1 pat

TABLE 147-8 -- Composition of the ADA, HCF and MHCF diets (all values in g except ratios)

Nutrient

ADA

HCF

MHCF

Protein

98

96

90

Carbohydrate

215

351

370

Simple (S)

100

94

70

Complex ©

115

257

300

S/C ratio

0.87

0.37

0.23

Fat

83

23.5

20

Saturated (S)

19

4.7

4.0

Monounsaturated (M)

43

9.5

7

Polyunsaturated (P)

15

6.9

8

P/S ratio

0.79

1.47

2.0

Cholesterol

0.47

0.04

0.05

Fiber

27

82

100

Soluble (S)

15

67

80

Insoluble (I)

12

15

20

S/I ratio

1.25

4.47

5.0

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: Rodney

Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 6:14 AM

Subject: [ ] Re: Type II Diabetes & CRON

Hi JW:Well, based on what I think I have learned since I have been here (including much from you) my bet, fwiw, is that you will no longer have a BP issue when your WC/H gets down to 0.45, no matter how much sodium you then consume.You know how to do that safely ........... just eat a couple of hundred calories a day less than you are burning off, until you get to a WC/H of 0.45.When you get there you may decide to continue a bit further. Or you may decide, since your issue will by then have been resolved, to stabilise at that point. But WC/H is what it is all about for you (and me too) imo. Just my take.Rodney.

[Guest guest]

I guess like Sisyphus I'm destined to keep rolling this rock up the hill.

Perhaps I should refine my position.

I do believe what macronutrient we burn for fuel does make a small

difference but afaics this difference is small wrt the excess or deficiency

of energy balance.

IMO there are fixed and variable components to our diet. Protein, vitamins,

and essential fats required don't vary significantly due to how much more we

eat in addition but are roughly based on our LBM and activity level (which

also impacts energy equilibrium).

After basic requirements are covered there may in fact be a preferred

macronutrient ratio for additional food eaten purely as fuel. This may be

parsed out of gross macronutrient ratios. I have seen some rodent studies

but frankly didn't pay that much attention (my recollection- protein and

fats favored over carbs).

As I've stated before the combination of fixed essential macronutrients and

a variable total energy requirement due to activity level and degree of CR,

there will not be a concise macronutrient ratio target. Even if you were

able to maintain a stable activity level and rigorously calculate one for

you, it would not be meaningful to others. For example, strict adherence to

a fixed gross macronutrient ratio for a significantly CR'd diet may lead to

inadequate protein intake.

I'd focus on covering essential nutrients first and if you want to play with

macronutrient ratios in selecting balance of food intake have at it.... life

is too short even with CR :-).

JR

-----Original Message-----

From: Rodney [mailto:perspect1111@...]

Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 6:41 AM

Subject: FW: [ ] Re: Type II Diabetes & CRON

Hi JR:

I sure would like to see studies which show the effects, or their

absence, of variations in macronutrient ratios. Are there any which

have methodically varied the proportions to determine the effects?

It seems to me that the advocates of the various types of diets -

high fat, high carb, high protein - have never experimented with

anything except their own recommended formula!

Certainly, Spindler's recent mouse study persuaded me pretty

decisively that **starch** has no benefits except for those on the

point of starvation. ( would have reached Ten Ton Depot if he

had had additional starch (or fat or protein), even without all the

other nutrients he was drastically short of. Of course he still

would probably not have survived). Also the Warsaw study I just

posted seems to suggest starch is less than helpful.

Rodney.

> http://www.rosedalemetabolics.com/moreinfo.asp

> > >>>

> >

> > Very informative lecture relating the role of insulin in

> carbohydrate

> > metabolism, its influence on other hormones, arterial plaque,

> etc.

> > Here are some passages that may be relevant for our CRON

> group:

>

> > ... about Protein/fat/carbohydrate ratios:

> >

> > " I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on

> the size

> > of the person, 25 percent to 30 percent of calories from protein,

> and

> > 60 percent to 65 percent from fat. "

> >

>

>

>

>

> ________________________________________________________

> This email has been scanned by Internet Pathway's Email

> Gateway scanning system for potentially harmful content,

> such as viruses or spam. Nothing out of the ordinary was

> detected in this email. For more information, call

> 601-776-3355 or email support@n...

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[Guest guest]

Hi JR:

That is VERY well stated!

So I should modify my position to asking whether studies have been

done to determine if there is any preference as to the source of the

incremental calories consumed, above those required for satisfying

the essential macronutrient minimum requirements.

Perhaps for those on a CR diet it will make no difference (perhaps

not?). But my guess is that there may be a major preference for

those whose daily caloric intake is in line with the amounts

generally recommended by governmental authorities (3000 kcal/day, for

example).

Either way, it would be nice to know. It would also be nice to have

a definitive answer to the meal spacing issue. Lee is only one

mouse. But his data are highly suggestive. I believe some results

are due soon from a meal spacing study on mice.

Rodney.

> > http://www.rosedalemetabolics.com/moreinfo.asp

> > > >>>

> > >

> > > Very informative lecture relating the role of insulin in

> > carbohydrate

> > > metabolism, its influence on other hormones, arterial plaque,

> > etc.

> > > Here are some passages that may be relevant for our CRON

> > group:

> >

> > > ... about Protein/fat/carbohydrate ratios:

> > >

> > > " I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on

> > the size

> > > of the person, 25 percent to 30 percent of calories from

protein,

> > and

> > > 60 percent to 65 percent from fat. "

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ________________________________________________________

> > This email has been scanned by Internet Pathway's Email

> > Gateway scanning system for potentially harmful content,

> > such as viruses or spam. Nothing out of the ordinary was

> > detected in this email. For more information, call

> > 601-776-3355 or email support@n...

> > ________________________________________________________

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi All,

--- In , " jwwright " <jwwright@e...>

wrote:

> The very word " syndrome " means they don't know what the hxxx it is.

syndrome

<syndrome> A set of signs or a series of events occurring together

that often point to a single disease or condition as the cause.

Cheers, Al Pater.

[Guest guest]

Hi :

I was afraid someone might ask that! To answer your question, three

things really. First, exposure over time to quite a lot of data like

the following:

http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/guidelines/obesity/e_txtbk/images/graph2.gif

http://snipurl.com/7m6a

Second, the data in the WUSTL study which showed that the BP numbers

of those who have been on CR for more than three years are quite

extraordinary, **AVERAGING** 99 over 61. (And they apparently had

been 'normal' (!!!) before going on CR). Also, others here who are

now well established in CRON have blood pressure numbers lower than I

had ever realized were possible - and have never heard of outside of

CR.

Third, my own recent experience of an apparent twelve point drop in

my systolic blood pressure associated with a slow weight loss of

about twelve pounds. If continued, this may mean my BP numbers will

be ~100 over ~60 in a year or so.

Please note that I used the wording " my bet is " specifically to

indicate a degree of uncertainty - a bet can be lost. Clearly the

causes of hypertension in each individual case are not known with

certainty. My bet is that the majority of cases of hypertension can

be reversed by CR. But probably not every case can be.

I guess I also was making an assumption - that JW is on a mildly

restrictive CRON diet.

Rodney.

>

> > Clearly, he, like Atkins before him are trying to deal with a

> metabolic problem that probably all of us have, some more, some

> less. ............. Lee's post is very informative to me. That

plus

> the BG measurements I've been taking, indicate that MAYBE, I need

to

> lose more weight. Down to that point where the parameters

normalize,

> if there is one.

> >

> > The problem is HOW to do it. I tend to lose muscle as fast

> as " fat " . AFAIC, the technique of SAFE weight-loss has yet to be

> elucidated by the " experts " . And I did that to my satisfaction. Now

I

> think there may be a next step. Because HTN is never cured and I'm

> sure that type 2 is never cured, just controlled. I'm also sure

type

> 2 is something I want to prevent. I also want to prevent arterial

> fat.

> >

> > " But I can't do it alone "

[Guest guest]

I'm doing 1800 kcals, low fat lacto veggie mostly. In the mildly HTN, younger, there may be evidence that HTN will be delayed, but I think most of the CRONies were either young or didn't have HTN to begin with. I don't think it goes away, but it may get low enough that I don't need any medication. My experience is that the rate of drop of BP with weightloss lessens - levels out.

It creeps up with age and I seriously doubt that it's reversible at my age. The mainest thing is to keep it low enough that the meds don't bother me.

And I don't think I ever was 31" in the waist.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: Rodney

Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 2:43 PM

Subject: [ ] Re: Type II Diabetes & CRON

Hi :I was afraid someone might ask that! To answer your question, three things really. First, exposure over time to quite a lot of data like the following:http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/guidelines/obesity/e_txtbk/images/graph2.gifhttp://snipurl.com/7m6aSecond, the data in the WUSTL study which showed that the BP numbers of those who have been on CR for more than three years are quite extraordinary, **AVERAGING** 99 over 61. (And they apparently had been 'normal' (!!!) before going on CR). Also, others here who are now well established in CRON have blood pressure numbers lower than I had ever realized were possible - and have never heard of outside of CR.Third, my own recent experience of an apparent twelve point drop in my systolic blood pressure associated with a slow weight loss of about twelve pounds. If continued, this may mean my BP numbers will be ~100 over ~60 in a year or so.Please note that I used the wording "my bet is" specifically to indicate a degree of uncertainty - a bet can be lost. Clearly the causes of hypertension in each individual case are not known with certainty. My bet is that the majority of cases of hypertension can be reversed by CR. But probably not every case can be.I guess I also was making an assumption - that JW is on a mildly restrictive CRON diet.Rodney.> > > Clearly, he, like Atkins before him are trying to deal with a > metabolic problem that probably all of us have, some more, some > less. ............. Lee's post is very informative to me. That plus > the BG measurements I've been taking, indicate that MAYBE, I need to > lose more weight. Down to that point where the parameters normalize, > if there is one.> > > > The problem is HOW to do it. I tend to lose muscle as fast > as "fat". AFAIC, the technique of SAFE weight-loss has yet to be > elucidated by the "experts". And I did that to my satisfaction. Now I > think there may be a next step. Because HTN is never cured and I'm > sure that type 2 is never cured, just controlled. I'm also sure type > 2 is something I want to prevent. I also want to prevent arterial > fat. > > > > "But I can't do it alone"

[Guest guest]

I agree. My own personal experience is: I had exceptionally low BP as a

young woman. Even with CRON it has crept up but is still in the normal

range. My family history wrt BP is very bad. Al immediate family members:

brothers, mother, father were on BP meds. I hope to avoid that and so far I

have.

on 7/8/2004 6:39 PM, jwwright at jwwright@... wrote:

> I'm doing 1800 kcals, low fat lacto veggie mostly. In the mildly HTN, younger,

> there may be evidence that HTN will be delayed, but I think most of the

> CRONies were either young or didn't have HTN to begin with. I don't think it

> goes away, but it may get low enough that I don't need any medication. My

> experience is that the rate of drop of BP with weightloss lessens - levels

> out.

> It creeps up with age and I seriously doubt that it's reversible at my age.

> The mainest thing is to keep it low enough that the meds don't bother me.

>

> And I don't think I ever was 31 " in the waist.

>

> Regards.

[Guest guest]

--- In , " jwwright " <jwwright@e...>

wrote:

> In the mildly HTN, younger, there may be evidence that HTN will be

delayed, but I think most of the CRONies were either young or didn't

have HTN to begin with. I don't think it goes away, but it may get

low enough that I don't need any medication. My experience is that

the rate of drop of BP with weightloss lessens - levels out.

> It creeps up with age and I seriously doubt that it's reversible at

my age.

>

Hi All,

WUSTL controls matched for age were shown to have blood pressures of

129/79. The CRers were, to my knowledge, normal in blood pressure

before CR, as was I. In Chinese of traditional diets and lifestyle,

I believe that their blood pressure decreases with age.

Cheers, AL Pater.