Guest guest Posted August 31, 2004 Report Share Posted August 31, 2004 Hi Aequalsz: There was a fairly extensive discussion of insomnia here a few months back. The date, as you can see below, was around 23 February. Lots of other suggestions there, including the results of a brief survey conducted by Francesca. Here is one of my contributions (fwiw): " From: " Rodney " <perspect1111@y...> Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:21 am Subject: Re: Insomnia Hi folks: Well here is another of my hypotheses (!). IMO there are very good reasons why older people do not sleep well at night. It has been bred into the species because families/groups in which the older folks (OFs) did not sleep well had a survival advantage compared with those where they slept right through the night. This is how it works: It would not be good for the group in the cave if those aged 15 to 40 did not sleep well. They are needed to do the back-breaking work the following day. They need a good night's sleep. But it didn't much matter if the OFs were awake in early hours. They didn't have much work of an onerous nature to do the following day. The reason having the OFs awake at 4 am is an advantage is that when the guys from the cave up the street were hungry and came over in the middle of the night to pick off their neighbours in preparation for lunch the next day, the OFs WERE AWAKE, could hear the approaching danger, and could wake the 15-40 year old warriors in time to defend the cave before it was overrun. The result was that the groups where the OFs slept well were gradually eliminated from the population by being eaten for lunch by the people from the cave next door. After many many generations the only humans left were those that had had warning of approaching trouble at 4 am - from the OFs who couldn't sleep. So the only humans alive today are the descendants of the groups whose OFs couldn't sleep. Evolution had selected the poor-sleeping OF groups because of their survival advantage. So expecting to sleep well after age 50 is fighting against many many million years of evolution. The above is just my opinion. More on it another time, perhaps. Rodney. " --- In , " aequalsz " <aequalsz@y...> wrote: > Some CRONies have mentioned trouble sleeping and I've noticed that I > require less sleep now when on my " CRONish " diet. Often wake up in > the early morning hours and feel this hollow feeling in my stomach - > think my stomach is trying to tell my brain that I'm actually > starving and it wants to be fed. (This must be similar to the way > some of our Paleolithic ancestors felt when they were actually > starving.) > > On the other hand, perhaps this sleep problem is related to > something else. An informative web site (which I plan to read next > thing.) is, > > http://sciencedaily.healthology.com/diduknow.asp? > n=nptdiduknow_default & f=sleep_disorders & c=dyk_sleepanxiety & spg=DYKT > > http://snipurl.com/8s0p > > Do many of you CRONies have sleeping problems and is it due to the > fact that your body is trying to tell you that it is starving? > Guess the best solution I've found to a restful sleep is when waking > up in the middle of the night, to take a melatonin pill. And a tad > of tryptophan helps also. O.K. my goal is to sleep 8 hours tonight > and feel like $500,000 tomorrow. > > Aequalsz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 31, 2004 Report Share Posted August 31, 2004 We're not starving on CR. Do you mean hungry? Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: aequalsz Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 2:14 PM Subject: [ ] CRON sleep Some CRONies have mentioned trouble sleeping and I've noticed that I require less sleep now when on my "CRONish" diet. Often wake up in the early morning hours and feel this hollow feeling in my stomach - think my stomach is trying to tell my brain that I'm actually starving and it wants to be fed. (This must be similar to the way some of our Paleolithic ancestors felt when they were actually starving.)On the other hand, perhaps this sleep problem is related to something else. An informative web site (which I plan to read next thing.) is,http://sciencedaily.healthology.com/diduknow.asp?n=nptdiduknow_default & f=sleep_disorders & c=dyk_sleepanxiety & spg=DYKThttp://snipurl.com/8s0pDo many of you CRONies have sleeping problems and is it due to the fact that your body is trying to tell you that it is starving? Guess the best solution I've found to a restful sleep is when waking up in the middle of the night, to take a melatonin pill. And a tad of tryptophan helps also. O.K. my goal is to sleep 8 hours tonight and feel like $500,000 tomorrow.Aequalsz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 31, 2004 Report Share Posted August 31, 2004 > Hi Aequalsz: > > There was a fairly extensive discussion of insomnia here a few months > back. The date, as you can see below, was around 23 February. Lots > of other suggestions there, including the results of a brief survey > conducted by Francesca. Here is one of my contributions (fwiw): > > " From: " Rodney " <perspect1111@y...> > Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:21 am > Subject: Re: Insomnia > > Hi folks: > > Well here is another of my hypotheses (!). IMO there are very good > reasons why older people do not sleep well at night. It has been > bred into the species because families/groups in which the older > folks (OFs) did not sleep well had a survival advantage compared > with those where they slept right through the night. This is how it > works: > > It would not be good for the group in the cave if those aged 15 to 40 > did not sleep well. They are needed to do the back-breaking work the > following day. They need a good night's sleep. But it didn't much > matter if the OFs were awake in early hours. They didn't have much > work of an onerous nature to do the following day. > > The reason having the OFs awake at 4 am is an advantage is that when > the guys from the cave up the street were hungry and came over in the > middle of the night to pick off their neighbours in preparation for > lunch the next day, the OFs WERE AWAKE, could hear the approaching > danger, and could wake the 15-40 year old warriors in time to defend > the cave before it was overrun. > > The result was that the groups where the OFs slept well were > gradually eliminated from the population by being eaten for lunch by > the people from the cave next door. After many many generations the > only humans left were those that had had warning of approaching > trouble at 4 am - from the OFs who couldn't sleep. So the only > humans alive today are the descendants of the groups whose OFs > couldn't sleep. Evolution had selected the poor-sleeping OF groups > because of their survival advantage. > > So expecting to sleep well after age 50 is fighting against many many > million years of evolution. > > The above is just my opinion. More on it another time, perhaps. > > Rodney. " > Well it's good to know that us OFs are still good for something. Interesting theory. Aequalsz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 31, 2004 Report Share Posted August 31, 2004 Dunno. Sleep is a poorly understood area. Epidemiological studies show best amount may be less than 8 hours (see below). I no longer worry about getting " enough " sleep hours, but try to get extra sleep if I feel tired. If I don't sleep soundly, I just get up early. For me, this is less stressful than tossing and turning in bed. Sleep. 2004 May 1;27(3):440-4. Related Articles, Links A prospective study of sleep duration and mortality risk in women. Patel SR, Ayas NT, Malhotra MR, White DP, Schernhammer ES, Speizer FE, Stampfer MJ, Hu FB. Division of Sleep Medicine, Department of Medicine, Brigham and Women's Hospital, Boston, Mass 02115, USA. spatel@... STUDY OBJECTIVES: It is commonly believed that 8 hours of sleep per night is optimal for good health. However, recent studies suggest the risk of death is lower in those sleeping 7 hours. We prospectively examined the association between sleep duration and mortality in women to better understand the effect of sleep duration on health. DESIGN: Prospective observational study. SETTING: Community-based. PARTICIPANTS: Women in the Nurses Health Study who answered a mailed questionnaire asking about sleep duration in 1986. INTERVENTIONS: None. MEASUREMENTS AND RESULTS: Vital status was ascertained through questionnaires, contact with next of kin, and the National Death Index. During the 14 years of this study (1986-2000), 5409 deaths occurred in the 82,969 women who responded to the initial questionnaire. Mortality risk was lowest among nurses reporting 7 hours of sleep per night. After adjusting for age, smoking, alcohol, exercise, depression, snoring, obesity, and history of cancer and cardiovascular disease, sleeping less than 6 hours or more than 7 hours remained associated with an increased risk of death. The relative mortality risk for sleeping 5 hours or less was 1.15 (95% confidence interval [CI], 1.02-1.29) for 6 hours, 1.01 (95% CI, 0.94-1.08), for 7 hours, 1.00 (reference group), for 8 hours, 1.12 (95% CI, 1.05-1.20), and for 9 or more hours 1.42 (95% CI, 1.27-1.58). CONCLUSIONS: These results confirm previous findings that mortality risk in women is lowest among those sleeping 6 to 7 hours. Further research is needed to understand the mechanisms by which short and long sleep times can affect health. PMID: 15164896 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] >From: " aequalsz " <aequalsz@...> >Reply- > >Subject: [ ] CRON sleep >Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 19:14:14 -0000 > >Some CRONies have mentioned trouble sleeping and I've noticed that I >require less sleep now when on my " CRONish " diet. Often wake up in >the early morning hours and feel this hollow feeling in my stomach - >think my stomach is trying to tell my brain that I'm actually >starving and it wants to be fed. (This must be similar to the way >some of our Paleolithic ancestors felt when they were actually >starving.) > >On the other hand, perhaps this sleep problem is related to >something else. An informative web site (which I plan to read next >thing.) is, > >http://sciencedaily.healthology.com/diduknow.asp? >n=nptdiduknow_default & f=sleep_disorders & c=dyk_sleepanxiety & spg=DYKT > >http://snipurl.com/8s0p > >Do many of you CRONies have sleeping problems and is it due to the >fact that your body is trying to tell you that it is starving? >Guess the best solution I've found to a restful sleep is when waking >up in the middle of the night, to take a melatonin pill. And a tad >of tryptophan helps also. O.K. my goal is to sleep 8 hours tonight >and feel like $500,000 tomorrow. > >Aequalsz > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 1, 2004 Report Share Posted September 1, 2004 --- In , " jwwright " <jwwright@e...> wrote: > We're not starving on CR. > Do you mean hungry? > Well my body sometimes " thinks " it's starving but I'm sure it is actually well nourished. Actual starvation, as depicted by the movie, " Without Borders " is something quite different than what even the most dedicated or extreme CRONie experiences. Apparently hardly anyone in our country knows what real starvation is like. Would be curious how much distress is caused by the typical CRON induced hunger. I usually treat my eating habits like a marathon race, start out slow and save a lot for the last, so I tend to get hungry about 10 AM and sometimes at 4 PM if I don't jog a 3 miler on my treadmill. Sometimes after 4 or 5 days of observing my diet strictly, I begin to sense that some additional food is required and will do a bit of binging. Probably why my weight is coming down rather slowly - but that's OK I suppose. Because I'm still trying to meet most of my 25 yo stats, ie 155 lbs, bench press 275, waistline 30 inches (impossible to meet that one.) Don't have a chance on sexual prowess - but one has to age gracefully. And with a current shoulder injury I'm having a little difficulty bench pressing right at the moment - may take quite a while to get back in shape. Aequalsz PS Still was able to bench press 250 lbs about 5 years ago so think there is still hope to eventually make the 275. Besides am " only " 57 yo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 1, 2004 Report Share Posted September 1, 2004 Something I've learned, the timing of my meals has a lot to do with my overall energy levels. I eat the bulk of my calories before 6 p.m., and have a very light snack (some nonfat yogurt with blueberries) about 15 minutes before bedtime. My sleep is sound and I wake up without aid of an alarm. If I eat a traditional heavy dinner at 8 p.m. and go to bed at 10:30, my sleep is restless and I have difficulty waking up the next morning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 1, 2004 Report Share Posted September 1, 2004 Hi Ruth: In the February discussion I remember someone recommended a specific relaxation procedure for getting back to sleep after waking up at night. It may be worth checking it out to see if it works for you. Rodney. > > Some CRONies have mentioned trouble sleeping and I've noticed that > I > > require less sleep now when on my " CRONish " diet. Often wake up in > > the early morning hours and feel this hollow feeling in my stomach - > > > think my stomach is trying to tell my brain that I'm actually > > starving and it wants to be fed. (This must be similar to the way > > some of our Paleolithic ancestors felt when they were actually > > starving.) > > > > On the other hand, perhaps this sleep problem is related to > > something else. An informative web site (which I plan to read next > > thing.) is, > > > > http://sciencedaily.healthology.com/diduknow.asp? > > n=nptdiduknow_default & f=sleep_disorders & c=dyk_sleepanxiety & spg=DYKT > > > > http://snipurl.com/8s0p > > > > Do many of you CRONies have sleeping problems and is it due to the > > fact that your body is trying to tell you that it is starving? > > Guess the best solution I've found to a restful sleep is when > waking > > up in the middle of the night, to take a melatonin pill. And a tad > > of tryptophan helps also. O.K. my goal is to sleep 8 hours tonight > > and feel like $500,000 tomorrow. > > > > Aequalsz > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 2, 2004 Report Share Posted September 2, 2004 According to long-term fasters, true starvation is felt in the throat similar to thirst, not the stomach. I have no reason to doubt this as hunger goes away after 3 days or so of fasting. The stomach contains our second brain, so it certainly can complain psychologically, especially during hunger. I find when I am suffering from substance toxemia or inadequate calorie intake for a given activity level, I will suffer restless sleep and/or insomina. It is a sign from my body telling me something is wrong. In older folks, after ruling everything else out, I would point the finger at CRON excaberating their already low melatonin levels. So supplementing with melatonin an hour before bedtime (or right at bedtime with delayed release) seems prudent. Logan --- In , " aequalsz " <aequalsz@y...> wrote: > Some CRONies have mentioned trouble sleeping and I've noticed that I > require less sleep now when on my " CRONish " diet. Often wake up in > the early morning hours and feel this hollow feeling in my stomach - > think my stomach is trying to tell my brain that I'm actually > starving and it wants to be fed. (This must be similar to the way > some of our Paleolithic ancestors felt when they were actually > starving.) > > On the other hand, perhaps this sleep problem is related to > something else. An informative web site (which I plan to read next > thing.) is, > > http://sciencedaily.healthology.com/diduknow.asp? > n=nptdiduknow_default & f=sleep_disorders & c=dyk_sleepanxiety & spg=DYKT > > http://snipurl.com/8s0p > > Do many of you CRONies have sleeping problems and is it due to the > fact that your body is trying to tell you that it is starving? > Guess the best solution I've found to a restful sleep is when waking > up in the middle of the night, to take a melatonin pill. And a tad > of tryptophan helps also. O.K. my goal is to sleep 8 hours tonight > and feel like $500,000 tomorrow. > > Aequalsz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 3, 2004 Report Share Posted September 3, 2004 It's my understanding melatonin is a hormone released by the pineal gland in the brain, not a macronutrient that can be used for energy. Logan > Hi. Under low-calorie conditions, why wouldn't the melatonin be simply broken > down and burned as fuel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 3, 2004 Report Share Posted September 3, 2004 Ken, Melatonin is not a protein. According to the following link, which has the structural formula, " Melatonin is a naturally occurring substance classified as a simple indole alkaloid and derivative of tryptamine (Cordell, 1978). It is a metabolite of the amino acid, tryptophan, and is derived enzymatically from its precursor, serotonin, via the intermediate, N-acetylserotonin (Dubocovich, 1988; Hashizume, 1991; Tedesco et al., 1994). It is a hormone produced by the pineal gland as well as extra-pineal tissues in humans and other mammals and is present in many plants. It was first isolated by Lerner in 1958 from bovine pineal glands and reported to have potency as an amphibian skin-lightening factor (-, 1996). " http://ntp-server.niehs.nih.gov/htdocs/Chem_Backgr ound/ExecSumm/Melatonin/Melatonin1.html http://tinyurl.com/5erbb With regard to substances that can be used as fuel, the body basically breaks them up and re-assembles them as needed by the body. In this way excess sugars get converted into fats, chicken or soy proteins get converted into human proteins, etc. The process of breaking up the input raw materials and converting them into something else may seem wasteful, but it is the way all biological processes work. From some recent discussions here, it seems that protein metabolism is the least efficient and fat metabolism the most efficient. Tony >>> From: bpinfo@a... Date: Thu Sep 2, 2004 8:43 pm Subject: Re: [ ] Re: CRON sleep Yes, but you also can buy and take melatonin in tablet form. Since it is a protein hormone, can't it be cleaved into amino acids, turned into glucose and used as fuel if the body needs fuel - just like any protein? The same question would apply to other things, like glucosamine and inositol (which are sugars), fish oil EFAs and so on. If they can be used as fuel, then it would be wise to not waste them by taking them only with some food as a source of calories. Ken >>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 6, 2004 Report Share Posted September 6, 2004 --- In , " aequalsz " <aequalsz@y...> > > Because I'm still trying to meet most of my 25 yo stats, ie 155 lbs, > bench press 275, waistline 30 inches (impossible to meet that one.) > Aequalsz > do you have any observations on maintaining strength while being on restricted calories? -- Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 6, 2004 Report Share Posted September 6, 2004 --- In , " forbpinfo " <bpinfo@a...> wrote: > --- In , " aequalsz " <aequalsz@y...> > > > Because I'm still trying to meet most of my 25 yo stats, ie 155 > lbs, > > bench press 275, waistline 30 inches (impossible to meet that > one.) > > Aequalsz > > > > do you have any observations on maintaining strength while being on > restricted calories? > > -- > > Ken Hello, Since starting the CRON diet, I've also been doing a lot more various types of weight training exercises, with the idea of maintaining or improving my strength. A lot of these exercises I haven't done for the past 35 years so upon resumption I'm seeing large improvements in strength (curls, leg squats, modified pull- ups). My only failure (bench press) is due to a shoulder rotator cuff injury sustained while lowering weights upon my shoulders to perform some leg squats. Since getting this injury I've bought a Marcy weight bench, so it's no longer necessary to lift the weights over my head and rest them on my shoulders since the weight machine has a " walk in " provision. And the shoulder injury seems to be mostly healed but still can't risk lifting large weights with the bench press although I feel I could if I wanted to. Just glancing in the mirror I notice a definite gain in musculature, but in some respects I remind myself of a primitive hominid or maybe a construction worker so am not totally happy with the results. :-) My level of calorie restriction is probably close to the 15% level, and that's where I plan to keep it - at least until more info on the safety of this diet comes out. And at my rate of weight loss I'm probably at least a year or two away from any CRON like stats so you wouldn't expect much muscle waisting with such a modest attempt at CRON. I always remember Dr Walford's (sp ?) somewhat early demise and the constant reminder of moderation, moderation, moderation, given on this board so am really proceeding slowly. Actually I've been at the same weight for about a month and a half now so it's probably time to try to lose a couple more pounds. Just got through a couple of double birthday celebrations without gaining too much weight and no birthdays for a few months - only a trip to Europe (No problem, understand the food is VERY expensive and probably won't be able to afford to eat very much anyway.) So back to CRON in earnest. (15% is earnest for me.) Aequalsz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 6, 2004 Report Share Posted September 6, 2004 > Check our file on " How much exercise? " under " CRON SCIENCE " . > > Hello, Thanks for the reference however I think I already read through all of them and also the " 120 Year Diet " - it's just that I don't believe most of what I read from the " authorities " especially since " they " usually do not agree with one another and rapidly change their viewpoints. Aequalsz PS Might even begin training for my second marathon next year with my now lighter bod. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 7, 2004 Report Share Posted September 7, 2004 Hi Ken: Some years ago I experimented with full day fasts while jogging two or three miles a day (aerobic rather than strength). I found absolutely no effect on my jogging performance the day of the fast. And a total devastation in performance the day after the fast. I found this interesting, as it seemed to imply that it is what you eat THE DAY BEFORE the performance that matters. fwiw. Rodney. > In a message dated 9/6/04 5:32:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > I asked because, for certain reasons, I had very little food recently for a > few days and experienced about a 5% strength loss. But there were other factors > present, too. > > Anyone have similar experience? > > -- > > Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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