Re: Prostate Cancer & Soy Products

August 9, 2004

Thanks, Rodney,

Australia is about the same lat as mid U.S. and Mexico yet has half the rate of N. America.

http://go.hrw.com/atlas/norm_htm/world.htm

Plus Japan and N. Africa kinda blows the latitude theory, IMO.

I think we consume(eat?) about 10 times as much soy oil per capita as the world,

and 3.689 times as much fats overall. Your ALA hypothesis may be pretty good.

Americans fry a lot of food in oil. Maybe hydrog fat is safer?

http://www.unitedsoybean.org/soystats2001/page_34.htm

http://www.census.gov/main/www/popclock.html

U.S. Fats & Oils Edible Consumption 2000

Million

2.93E+08

Pounds

Metric Tons

..

Soybean

13164

5.97

44.92833

1.00E+01

Corn

586

0.27

Canola (Rapeseed)

649

0.29

Cottonseed

488

0.22

Lard

249

0.11

Edible Tallow

270

0.12

Coconut

232

0.11

Peanut

240

0.11

Other 1)

411

0.19

..

Total

16289

7.39

5.56E+01

3.69E+00

..

World Vegetable Oil Consumption 2000

Million

6.39E+06

Short Tons

Metric Tons

..

Soybeans

28.6

26

4.48E+00

Palm

25.7

23.3

Rapeseed

14.5

13.1

Sunflowerseed

9.5

8.6

Peanut

4.6

4.2

Cottonseed

3.9

3.6

Coconut

3.6

3.3

Palm Kernel

3

2.7

Olive

2.7

2.5

Total

96.1

87.2

1.51E+01

----- Original Message -----

From: Rodney

Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 2:53 PM

Subject: [ ] Prostate Cancer & Soy Products

Hi folks:Some helpful information on the above topic:http://www.csmc.edu/pf_3421.htmlRodney.

August 9, 2004

By " hydrog " do you mean saturated? Saturated fats are associated with

increased rates of atherosclerosis, dementia, and cancer. How 'bout minimal

oil, and if that, then olive?

>From: " jwwright " <jwwright@...>

>Reply-

>< >

>Subject: Re: [ ] Prostate Cancer & Soy Products

>Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 15:47:57 -0500

>

>Thanks, Rodney,

>Australia is about the same lat as mid U.S. and Mexico yet has half the

>rate of N. America.

>http://go.hrw.com/atlas/norm_htm/world.htm

>

>Plus Japan and N. Africa kinda blows the latitude theory, IMO.

>

>I think we consume(eat?) about 10 times as much soy oil per capita as the

>world,

>and 3.689 times as much fats overall. Your ALA hypothesis may be pretty

>good.

>Americans fry a lot of food in oil. Maybe hydrog fat is safer?

>

>http://www.unitedsoybean.org/soystats2001/page_34.htm

>http://www.census.gov/main/www/popclock.html

>

> U.S. Fats & Oils Edible Consumption 2000

>

> Million

> 2.93E+08

>

> Pounds

> Metric Tons

>

> .

>

> Soybean

>

> 13164

> 5.97

> 44.92833

> 1.00E+01

>

> Corn

>

> 586

> 0.27

>

> Canola (Rapeseed)

> 649

> 0.29

>

> Cottonseed

>

> 488

> 0.22

>

> Lard

>

> 249

> 0.11

>

> Edible Tallow

>

> 270

> 0.12

>

> Coconut

>

> 232

> 0.11

>

> Peanut

>

> 240

> 0.11

>

> Other 1)

>

> 411

> 0.19

>

> .

>

> Total

>

> 16289

> 7.39

> 5.56E+01

> 3.69E+00

>

> .

>

> World Vegetable Oil Consumption 2000

>

> Million

> 6.39E+06

>

> Short Tons

> Metric Tons

>

> .

>

> Soybeans

>

> 28.6

> 26

> 4.48E+00

>

> Palm

>

> 25.7

> 23.3

>

> Rapeseed

>

> 14.5

> 13.1

>

> Sunflowerseed

>

> 9.5

> 8.6

>

> Peanut

>

> 4.6

> 4.2

>

> Cottonseed

>

> 3.9

> 3.6

>

> Coconut

>

> 3.6

> 3.3

>

> Palm Kernel

>

> 3

> 2.7

>

> Olive

>

> 2.7

> 2.5

>

> Total

>

> 96.1

> 87.2

> 1.51E+01

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: Rodney

>

> Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 2:53 PM

> Subject: [ ] Prostate Cancer & Soy Products

>

> Hi folks:

>

> Some helpful information on the above topic:

>

> http://www.csmc.edu/pf_3421.html

>

> Rodney.

>

August 9, 2004

Hi :

I think JW's entertaining point may have been that if this ALA stuff

is as bad as it looks, then perhaps the hydrogenated stuff is

somewhat less awful.

I suggest safflower oil as maybe preferable to the others for reasons

previously mentioned. It does NOT contain the ALA, and DOES contain

plenty (79%) of the essential fat you certainly DO need, linoleic

acid - so you can get the RDA of linoleic with the smallest possible

number of calories.

Rodney.

> By " hydrog " do you mean saturated? Saturated fats are associated

with

> increased rates of atherosclerosis, dementia, and cancer.

How 'bout minimal

> oil, and if that, then olive?

>

> >From: " jwwright " <jwwright@e...>

> >Reply-

> >< >

> >Subject: Re: [ ] Prostate Cancer & Soy Products

> >Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 15:47:57 -0500

> >

> >Thanks, Rodney,

> >Australia is about the same lat as mid U.S. and Mexico yet has

half the

> >rate of N. America.

> >http://go.hrw.com/atlas/norm_htm/world.htm

> >

> >Plus Japan and N. Africa kinda blows the latitude theory, IMO.

> >

> >I think we consume(eat?) about 10 times as much soy oil per capita

as the

> >world,

> >and 3.689 times as much fats overall. Your ALA hypothesis may be

pretty

> >good.

> >Americans fry a lot of food in oil. Maybe hydrog fat is safer?

> >

> >http://www.unitedsoybean.org/soystats2001/page_34.htm

> >http://www.census.gov/main/www/popclock.html

> >

> > U.S. Fats & Oils Edible Consumption 2000

> >

> > Million

> > 2.93E+08

> >

> > Pounds

> > Metric Tons

> >

> > .

> >

> > Soybean

> >

> > 13164

> > 5.97

> > 44.92833

> > 1.00E+01

> >

> > Corn

> >

> > 586

> > 0.27

> >

> > Canola (Rapeseed)

> > 649

> > 0.29

> >

> > Cottonseed

> >

> > 488

> > 0.22

> >

> > Lard

> >

> > 249

> > 0.11

> >

> > Edible Tallow

> >

> > 270

> > 0.12

> >

> > Coconut

> >

> > 232

> > 0.11

> >

> > Peanut

> >

> > 240

> > 0.11

> >

> > Other 1)

> >

> > 411

> > 0.19

> >

> > .

> >

> > Total

> >

> > 16289

> > 7.39

> > 5.56E+01

> > 3.69E+00

> >

> > .

> >

> > World Vegetable Oil Consumption 2000

> >

> > Million

> > 6.39E+06

> >

> > Short Tons

> > Metric Tons

> >

> > .

> >

> > Soybeans

> >

> > 28.6

> > 26

> > 4.48E+00

> >

> > Palm

> >

> > 25.7

> > 23.3

> >

> > Rapeseed

> >

> > 14.5

> > 13.1

> >

> > Sunflowerseed

> >

> > 9.5

> > 8.6

> >

> > Peanut

> >

> > 4.6

> > 4.2

> >

> > Cottonseed

> >

> > 3.9

> > 3.6

> >

> > Coconut

> >

> > 3.6

> > 3.3

> >

> > Palm Kernel

> >

> > 3

> > 2.7

> >

> > Olive

> >

> > 2.7

> > 2.5

> >

> > Total

> >

> > 96.1

> > 87.2

> > 1.51E+01

> >

> > ----- Original Message -----

> > From: Rodney

> >

> > Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 2:53 PM

> > Subject: [ ] Prostate Cancer & Soy Products

> >

> > Hi folks:

> >

> > Some helpful information on the above topic:

> >

> > http://www.csmc.edu/pf_3421.html

> >

> > Rodney.

> >

August 9, 2004

Int J Cancer. 2004 Sep 1;111(3):444-50. Related Articles, Links

Serum linoleic and total polyunsaturated fatty acids in relation to prostate

and other cancers: A population-based cohort study.

Laaksonen DE, Laukkanen JA, Niskanen L, Nyyssonen K, Rissanen TH,

Voutilainen S, Pukkala E, Hakkarainen A, Salonen JT.

Department of Physiology, University of Kuopio, Kuopio, Finland.

Dietary and serum fatty acid composition has been implicated in the

pathogenesis of prostate and other cancers, but findings have been

conflicting. Cohort studies reporting serum fatty acid composition are

lacking. We assessed the association of fatty acid composition determined

from dietary records and serum with incident cancer of the prostate and any

site in a population-based cohort of 2,002 middle-aged Finnish men who were

free of cancer at baseline and during the first 4 years of follow-up. During

12.6 years of follow-up, 46 men developed prostate cancer and 151 any

cancer. Men with proportions of serum nonesterified [risk ratio (RR) 0.28;

95% confidence intervals (CI) 0.12-0.66] and esterified linoleic acid (RR

0.37; 95% CI = 0.16-0.86) and total polyunsaturated fatty acids (RR 0.30;

95% CI = 0.12-0.71) in the upper third were less than 1/3 as likely to

develop prostate cancer during follow-up. Adjustment for possible

confounders like socioeconomic status, physical activity, obesity and

insulin concentrations did not attenuate the association. Similar but weaker

associations with any cancer were found. Dietary linoleic acid intake also

tended to be inversely associated with incident prostate cancer

(age-adjusted RR for the upper vs. lower third 0.55; 95% CI = 0.26-1.14, p

for the trend 0.097). Substitution of linoleic acid for saturated fat in

middle-aged men consuming a high saturated-fat diet may decrease the risk of

prostate and other cancers, although it is possible that some of the effect

may be mediated by nutrients closely associated with vegetable fats.

PMID: 15221975 [PubMed - in process]

>From: " jwwright " <jwwright@...>

>Reply-

>< >

>Subject: Re: [ ] Prostate Cancer & Soy Products

>Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 15:47:57 -0500

>

>Thanks, Rodney,

>Australia is about the same lat as mid U.S. and Mexico yet has half the

>rate of N. America.

>http://go.hrw.com/atlas/norm_htm/world.htm

>

>Plus Japan and N. Africa kinda blows the latitude theory, IMO.

>

>I think we consume(eat?) about 10 times as much soy oil per capita as the

>world,

>and 3.689 times as much fats overall. Your ALA hypothesis may be pretty

>good.

>Americans fry a lot of food in oil. Maybe hydrog fat is safer?

>

>http://www.unitedsoybean.org/soystats2001/page_34.htm

>http://www.census.gov/main/www/popclock.html

>

> U.S. Fats & Oils Edible Consumption 2000

>

> Million

> 2.93E+08

>

> Pounds

> Metric Tons

>

> .

>

> Soybean

>

> 13164

> 5.97

> 44.92833

> 1.00E+01

>

> Corn

>

> 586

> 0.27

>

> Canola (Rapeseed)

> 649

> 0.29

>

> Cottonseed

>

> 488

> 0.22

>

> Lard

>

> 249

> 0.11

>

> Edible Tallow

>

> 270

> 0.12

>

> Coconut

>

> 232

> 0.11

>

> Peanut

>

> 240

> 0.11

>

> Other 1)

>

> 411

> 0.19

>

> .

>

> Total

>

> 16289

> 7.39

> 5.56E+01

> 3.69E+00

>

> .

>

> World Vegetable Oil Consumption 2000

>

> Million

> 6.39E+06

>

> Short Tons

> Metric Tons

>

> .

>

> Soybeans

>

> 28.6

> 26

> 4.48E+00

>

> Palm

>

> 25.7

> 23.3

>

> Rapeseed

>

> 14.5

> 13.1

>

> Sunflowerseed

>

> 9.5

> 8.6

>

> Peanut

>

> 4.6

> 4.2

>

> Cottonseed

>

> 3.9

> 3.6

>

> Coconut

>

> 3.6

> 3.3

>

> Palm Kernel

>

> 3

> 2.7

>

> Olive

>

> 2.7

> 2.5

>

> Total

>

> 96.1

> 87.2

> 1.51E+01

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: Rodney

>

> Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 2:53 PM

> Subject: [ ] Prostate Cancer & Soy Products

>

> Hi folks:

>

> Some helpful information on the above topic:

>

> http://www.csmc.edu/pf_3421.html

>

> Rodney.

>

August 9, 2004

Hi folks:

Correction. Safflower oil is 76% linoleic, not the 79% I had said.

http://www.freshhempfoods.com/nutrition/comp-table.html

http://snipurl.com/7x82

Of course Jeff's point is don't eat the oil, eat foods that contain

the linoleic acid you need. But I am not sure which he would suggest.

Rodney.

> > By " hydrog " do you mean saturated? Saturated fats are associated

> with

> > increased rates of atherosclerosis, dementia, and cancer.

> How 'bout minimal

> > oil, and if that, then olive?

> >

> > >From: " jwwright " <jwwright@e...>

> > >Reply-

> > >< >

> > >Subject: Re: [ ] Prostate Cancer & Soy Products

> > >Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 15:47:57 -0500

> > >

> > >Thanks, Rodney,

> > >Australia is about the same lat as mid U.S. and Mexico yet has

> half the

> > >rate of N. America.

> > >http://go.hrw.com/atlas/norm_htm/world.htm

> > >

> > >Plus Japan and N. Africa kinda blows the latitude theory, IMO.

> > >

> > >I think we consume(eat?) about 10 times as much soy oil per

capita

> as the

> > >world,

> > >and 3.689 times as much fats overall. Your ALA hypothesis may be

> pretty

> > >good.

> > >Americans fry a lot of food in oil. Maybe hydrog fat is safer?

> > >

> > >http://www.unitedsoybean.org/soystats2001/page_34.htm

> > >http://www.census.gov/main/www/popclock.html

> > >

> > > U.S. Fats & Oils Edible Consumption 2000

> > >

> > > Million

> > > 2.93E+08

> > >

> > > Pounds

> > > Metric Tons

> > >

> > > .

> > >

> > > Soybean

> > >

> > > 13164

> > > 5.97

> > > 44.92833

> > > 1.00E+01

> > >

> > > Corn

> > >

> > > 586

> > > 0.27

> > >

> > > Canola (Rapeseed)

> > > 649

> > > 0.29

> > >

> > > Cottonseed

> > >

> > > 488

> > > 0.22

> > >

> > > Lard

> > >

> > > 249

> > > 0.11

> > >

> > > Edible Tallow

> > >

> > > 270

> > > 0.12

> > >

> > > Coconut

> > >

> > > 232

> > > 0.11

> > >

> > > Peanut

> > >

> > > 240

> > > 0.11

> > >

> > > Other 1)

> > >

> > > 411

> > > 0.19

> > >

> > > .

> > >

> > > Total

> > >

> > > 16289

> > > 7.39

> > > 5.56E+01

> > > 3.69E+00

> > >

> > > .

> > >

> > > World Vegetable Oil Consumption 2000

> > >

> > > Million

> > > 6.39E+06

> > >

> > > Short Tons

> > > Metric Tons

> > >

> > > .

> > >

> > > Soybeans

> > >

> > > 28.6

> > > 26

> > > 4.48E+00

> > >

> > > Palm

> > >

> > > 25.7

> > > 23.3

> > >

> > > Rapeseed

> > >

> > > 14.5

> > > 13.1

> > >

> > > Sunflowerseed

> > >

> > > 9.5

> > > 8.6

> > >

> > > Peanut

> > >

> > > 4.6

> > > 4.2

> > >

> > > Cottonseed

> > >

> > > 3.9

> > > 3.6

> > >

> > > Coconut

> > >

> > > 3.6

> > > 3.3

> > >

> > > Palm Kernel

> > >

> > > 3

> > > 2.7

> > >

> > > Olive

> > >

> > > 2.7

> > > 2.5

> > >

> > > Total

> > >

> > > 96.1

> > > 87.2

> > > 1.51E+01

> > >

> > > ----- Original Message -----

> > > From: Rodney

> > >

> > > Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 2:53 PM

> > > Subject: [ ] Prostate Cancer & Soy Products

> > >

> > > Hi folks:

> > >

> > > Some helpful information on the above topic:

> > >

> > > http://www.csmc.edu/pf_3421.html

> > >

> > > Rodney.

> > >

August 9, 2004

J Urol. 1998 Apr;159(4):1271-5. Related Articles, Links

Dietary fat and advanced prostate cancer.

Bairati I, Meyer F, Fradet Y, L.

Departement de Medecine Sociale et Preventive, Centre de Recherche en

Cancerologie de l'Universite Laval, Quebec City, Quebec, Canada.

PURPOSE: We identify the dietary factors, particularly fat intake,

associated with advanced prostate cancer. MATERIALS AND METHODS: We

performed a case series analysis restricted to prostate cancer cases

recruited in a hospital based, case control study evaluating the influence

of diet on the development of prostate cancer. Patients eligible for study

inclusion were 45 years old or older with prostate cancer who had been

hospitalized for initial surgical treatment or radiotherapy between October

1990 and December 1992 at 1 of 8 hospitals in the Quebec City area. A diet

history questionnaire was administered to 427 patients with prostate cancer

of whom 384 (90%) had completed a reliable questionnaire, including 142 with

advanced and 242 with local stages I and II disease. Logistic regression

analysis was used to evaluate the associations between dietary intake and

advanced prostate cancer. Odds ratios and trend odds ratios were adjusted

for patient age, energy intake, method of cancer detection and cancer

treatment. RESULTS: There was a moderate, not statistically significant

relation to total fat (trend odds ratio 1.15, confidence interval [CI] 0.95

to 1.39). Cases in the highest quartile of saturated fat consumption had a

statistically significant odds ratio of 2.15 (CI 1.14 to 4.04). In addition,

the relation increased proportionally and significantly with saturated fat

intake (trend odds ratio 1.24, CI 1.02 to 1.51). Inverse associations of

borderline significance were observed between advanced cancer, and

polyunsaturated fat (trend odds ratio 0.88, CI 0.73 to 1.07) and linoleic

acid intake (trend odds ratio 0.86, CI 0.71 to 1.04). A positive trend was

observed for total animal fat intake (trend odds ratio 1.20, CI 0.99 to

1.46), while a negative trend was noted for total vegetable fat intake

(trend odds ratio 0.84, CI 0.70 to 1.01). CONCLUSIONS: This study suggests

an association between saturated fat consumption and prostate cancer

progression. If cohort studies performed on patients with local prostate

cancer confirm these results, dietary fat intake modification may be a

promising intervention to prevent prostate cancer progression.

PMID: 9507851 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

>From: " jwwright " <jwwright@...>

>Reply-

>< >

>Subject: Re: [ ] Prostate Cancer & Soy Products

>Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 15:47:57 -0500

>

>Thanks, Rodney,

>Australia is about the same lat as mid U.S. and Mexico yet has half the

>rate of N. America.

>http://go.hrw.com/atlas/norm_htm/world.htm

>

>Plus Japan and N. Africa kinda blows the latitude theory, IMO.

>

>I think we consume(eat?) about 10 times as much soy oil per capita as the

>world,

>and 3.689 times as much fats overall. Your ALA hypothesis may be pretty

>good.

>Americans fry a lot of food in oil. Maybe hydrog fat is safer?

>

>http://www.unitedsoybean.org/soystats2001/page_34.htm

>http://www.census.gov/main/www/popclock.html

>

> U.S. Fats & Oils Edible Consumption 2000

>

> Million

> 2.93E+08

>

> Pounds

> Metric Tons

>

> .

>

> Soybean

>

> 13164

> 5.97

> 44.92833

> 1.00E+01

>

> Corn

>

> 586

> 0.27

>

> Canola (Rapeseed)

> 649

> 0.29

>

> Cottonseed

>

> 488

> 0.22

>

> Lard

>

> 249

> 0.11

>

> Edible Tallow

>

> 270

> 0.12

>

> Coconut

>

> 232

> 0.11

>

> Peanut

>

> 240

> 0.11

>

> Other 1)

>

> 411

> 0.19

>

> .

>

> Total

>

> 16289

> 7.39

> 5.56E+01

> 3.69E+00

>

> .

>

> World Vegetable Oil Consumption 2000

>

> Million

> 6.39E+06

>

> Short Tons

> Metric Tons

>

> .

>

> Soybeans

>

> 28.6

> 26

> 4.48E+00

>

> Palm

>

> 25.7

> 23.3

>

> Rapeseed

>

> 14.5

> 13.1

>

> Sunflowerseed

>

> 9.5

> 8.6

>

> Peanut

>

> 4.6

> 4.2

>

> Cottonseed

>

> 3.9

> 3.6

>

> Coconut

>

> 3.6

> 3.3

>

> Palm Kernel

>

> 3

> 2.7

>

> Olive

>

> 2.7

> 2.5

>

> Total

>

> 96.1

> 87.2

> 1.51E+01

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: Rodney

>

> Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 2:53 PM

> Subject: [ ] Prostate Cancer & Soy Products

>

> Hi folks:

>

> Some helpful information on the above topic:

>

> http://www.csmc.edu/pf_3421.html

>

> Rodney.

>

August 10, 2004

Your comments about hydrogenated fats indicate that you forgot that

dietary trans fats raise the level of LDL increasing the risk of

coronary heart disease. Trans fats also reduce HDL and raise levels of

triglycerides in the blood. There is documentation all the way back

to 1994 indicating that people who ate partially hydrogenated oils

had nearly twice the risk of heart attacks compared with those who did

not consume hydrogenated oils.

Choose your poisons carefully. What you eat will eventually kill you,

but you will also die if you don't eat.

Tony Zamora

Willett WC, Ascherio A. Trans fatty acids: Are the effects only

marginal? Am J Public Health 1994; 84:722-724.

>>>>>

From: " jwwright " <jwwright@e...>

Date: Mon Aug 9, 2004 4:47 pm

Subject: Re: Prostate Cancer & Soy Products

I think we consume(eat?) about 10 times as much soy oil per capita as

the world,

and 3.689 times as much fats overall. Your ALA hypothesis may be

pretty good.

Americans fry a lot of food in oil. Maybe hydrog fat is safer?

From: " Dowling " <dowlic@h...>

Date: Mon Aug 9, 2004 5:27 pm

By " hydrog " do you mean saturated? Saturated fats are associated with

increased rates of atherosclerosis, dementia, and cancer.

From: " Rodney " <perspect1111@y...>

Date: Mon Aug 9, 2004 5:45 pm

I think JW's entertaining point may have been that if this ALA stuff

is as bad as it looks, then perhaps the hydrogenated stuff is

somewhat less awful.

>>>>>

August 10, 2004

No I meant hydrogenation of the soy oil does something to the ALA and linoleic, right? Those must be converted to 18:00 even though the molecule may be bent a different way. So I hypothesized that hydrog soy oil may be better than soy oil, because it doesn't have ALA.

Minimal oil, I prefer, of course. For PCa and colon cancer, etc.

The other thing is, I'm not sure what cooking in deep soy oil does to the oil. They use it a lot to fry potatoes and those potatoes cooking is similar to the hydrogenation process. You'd think there'd be some going on. Cool that oil down and it's thicker but not solid. Put it in the frig and it doesn't get solid.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: Dowling

Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 4:27 PM

Subject: Re: [ ] Prostate Cancer & Soy Products

By "hydrog" do you mean saturated? Saturated fats are associated with increased rates of atherosclerosis, dementia, and cancer. How 'bout minimal oil, and if that, then olive?>From: "jwwright" <jwwright@...>>Reply- >< >>Subject: Re: [ ] Prostate Cancer & Soy Products>Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 15:47:57 -0500>>Thanks, Rodney,>Australia is about the same lat as mid U.S. and Mexico yet has half the >rate of N. America.>http://go.hrw.com/atlas/norm_htm/world.htm>>Plus Japan and N. Africa kinda blows the latitude theory, IMO.>>I think we consume(eat?) about 10 times as much soy oil per capita as the >world,>and 3.689 times as much fats overall. Your ALA hypothesis may be pretty >good.>Americans fry a lot of food in oil. Maybe hydrog fat is safer?>>http://www.unitedsoybean.org/soystats2001/page_34.htm>http://www.census.gov/main/www/popclock.html>>

August 10, 2004

Hi JW:

I believe that must be an error. They quote Giovannucci, a lead

author of the recent Physicians Health Study article on oils and

prostate cancer. It (he) found that it was linoleNic acid that

promotes prostate cancer, NOT linoleic.

But sometime I will email them and check, and get back if I get a

reply.

Rodney.

> > > By " hydrog " do you mean saturated? Saturated fats are

associated

> > with

> > > increased rates of atherosclerosis, dementia, and cancer.

> > How 'bout minimal

> > > oil, and if that, then olive?

> > >

August 10, 2004

Hydrogenation is done at high temperatures in the presence of metal

catalysts and hydrogen. If all the unsaturated bonds were

hydrogenated (100% hydrogenation), you would end up with a hard,

saturated fat. However, the reactions never go to 100% completion

(because of chemical equilibrium), and commercially you don't want

shortening that looks or acts like paraffin. So by partially

hydrogenating oil, you get a softer shortening, but the high

temperatures of the process weaken molecular attractions and change

some of the natural Cis- bonds to Trans- bonds.

Hydrogenation is not the same as high-temperature cooking. First of

all, catalysts or hydrogen are not present. However, unsaturated oils

can oxidize, polymerize, or otherwise degrade under high temperatures

with a higher likelyhood of creating free radicals. Even at room

temperature, some oils like linseed oil (flax seed oil) polymerize and

form highly resistant coatings which is why they were used for

centuries for varnishing applications.

Take a look at my web page on fats:

http://www.scientificpsychic.com/fitness/fattyacids.html

Tony

>>>>

From: " jwwright " <jwwright@e...>

Date: Tue Aug 10, 2004 11:00 am

Subject: Re: [ ] Prostate Cancer & Soy Products

No I meant hydrogenation of the soy oil does something to the ALA and

linoleic, right? Those must be converted to 18:00 even though the

molecule may be bent a different way. So I hypothesized that hydrog

soy oil may be better than soy oil, because it doesn't have ALA.

From: " jwwright " <jwwright@e...>

Date: Tue Aug 10, 2004 11:21 am

Subject: Re: [ ] Re: Prostate Cancer & Soy Products

First, you tangent my statement. Second, I really don't think trans

fats raise LDL more than say meats. Third,

I don't think fat regulation will buy anyone anything better than CR,

which means low levels of fats to me. Fourth, you leave out the idea

what happens to fats in veggies,eg, when they are heated. Clearly,

IMO, the lowest level of fat is the best, but if you've dropped as low

as I have you know you will need some soy (or canola oil) - a tbls,

that's all. In my experience, it can be hydrogenated, fried corn

chips, french fries, mayo, whatever.

I really question a test of " partially " hydrogenated oils versus

hydrogenated oils. It is my understanding they are the same. The sat

fatty acid doesn't get hydrogenated, ergo, " partially " hydrogenated.

>>>>

August 10, 2004

Hi All,

I find the suggestion that trans fats are okay highly misguided.

Cheers, Al Pater.

--- In , " jwwright " <jwwright@e...>

wrote:

> First, you tangent my statement. Second, I really don't think trans

fats raise LDL more than say meats. Third,

> I don't think fat regulation will buy anyone anything better than

CR, which means low levels of fats to me. Fourth, you leave out the

idea what happens to fats in veggies,eg, when they are heated.

Clearly, IMO, the lowest level of fat is the best, but if you've

dropped as low as I have you know you will need some soy (or canola

oil) - a tbls, that's all. In my experience, it can be hydrogenated,

fried corn chips, french fries, mayo, whatever.

> I really question a test of " partially " hydrogenated oils versus

hydrogenated oils. It is my understanding they are the same. The sat

fatty acid doesn't get hydrogenated, ergo, " partially " hydrogenated.

August 10, 2004

Hi folks:

My recollection of the data from the Nurses Health Study is that

trans fats were found to be many multiples of times worse, with

respect to CHD, than saturated fats. I was surprised to see that the

latter appeared to be only 'somewhat' harmful. I suppose that

means 'somewhat harmful' relative to the average diet, which, of

course, is no great claim to fame.

Rodney.

> > First, you tangent my statement. Second, I really don't think

trans

> fats raise LDL more than say meats. Third,

> > I don't think fat regulation will buy anyone anything better than

> CR, which means low levels of fats to me. Fourth, you leave out the

> idea what happens to fats in veggies,eg, when they are heated.

> Clearly, IMO, the lowest level of fat is the best, but if you've

> dropped as low as I have you know you will need some soy (or canola

> oil) - a tbls, that's all. In my experience, it can be

hydrogenated,

> fried corn chips, french fries, mayo, whatever.

> > I really question a test of " partially " hydrogenated oils versus

> hydrogenated oils. It is my understanding they are the same. The

sat

> fatty acid doesn't get hydrogenated, ergo, " partially " hydrogenated.

August 10, 2004

Hi All,

See the from me pdf-available:

http://tinyurl.com/48tq5 ,

which says that the medium chain fatty acids are heart disease risks,

as opposed to the final paragraphs of:

http://www.scientificpsychic.com/fitness/fattyacids.html

Cheers, Al Pater.

> Hydrogenation is done at high temperatures in the presence of metal

> catalysts and hydrogen. If all the unsaturated bonds were

> hydrogenated (100% hydrogenation), you would end up with a hard,

> saturated fat. However, the reactions never go to 100% completion

> (because of chemical equilibrium), and commercially you don't want

> shortening that looks or acts like paraffin. So by partially

> hydrogenating oil, you get a softer shortening, but the high

> temperatures of the process weaken molecular attractions and change

> some of the natural Cis- bonds to Trans- bonds.

>

> Hydrogenation is not the same as high-temperature cooking. First of

> all, catalysts or hydrogen are not present. However, unsaturated

oils

> can oxidize, polymerize, or otherwise degrade under high

temperatures

> with a higher likelyhood of creating free radicals. Even at room

> temperature, some oils like linseed oil (flax seed oil) polymerize

and

> form highly resistant coatings which is why they were used for

> centuries for varnishing applications.

>

> Take a look at my web page on fats:

> http://www.scientificpsychic.com/fitness/fattyacids.html

>

> Tony

>

> >>>>

> From: " jwwright " <jwwright@e...>

> Date: Tue Aug 10, 2004 11:00 am

> Subject: Re: [ ] Prostate Cancer & Soy Products

> No I meant hydrogenation of the soy oil does something to the ALA

and

> linoleic, right? Those must be converted to 18:00 even though the

> molecule may be bent a different way. So I hypothesized that hydrog

> soy oil may be better than soy oil, because it doesn't have ALA.

>

> From: " jwwright " <jwwright@e...>

> Date: Tue Aug 10, 2004 11:21 am

> Subject: Re: [ ] Re: Prostate Cancer & Soy Products

>

> First, you tangent my statement. Second, I really don't think trans

> fats raise LDL more than say meats. Third,

> I don't think fat regulation will buy anyone anything better than

CR,

> which means low levels of fats to me. Fourth, you leave out the idea

> what happens to fats in veggies,eg, when they are heated. Clearly,

> IMO, the lowest level of fat is the best, but if you've dropped as

low

> as I have you know you will need some soy (or canola oil) - a tbls,

> that's all. In my experience, it can be hydrogenated, fried corn

> chips, french fries, mayo, whatever.

> I really question a test of " partially " hydrogenated oils versus

> hydrogenated oils. It is my understanding they are the same. The

sat

> fatty acid doesn't get hydrogenated, ergo, " partially "

hydrogenated.

> >>>>

August 10, 2004

>>>>

From: " old542000 " <apater@m...>

Date: Tue Aug 10, 2004 1:38 pm

Subject: Re: Prostate Cancer & Soy Products

Hi All,

See the from me pdf-available:

http://tinyurl.com/48tq5 ,

which says that the medium chain fatty acids are heart disease risks,

as opposed to the final paragraphs of:

http://www.scientificpsychic.com/fitness/fattyacids.html

Cheers, Al Pater.

>>>>

Hi Al,

To quote the reference that you provided " CONCLUSIONS: Compared with

fat high in oleic acid, MCT[Medium Chain Triglycerides] fat

unfavorably affected lipid profiles in healthy young men by increasing

plasma LDL cholesterol and triacylglycerol. " We can ASSUME that this

will increase heart disease risk, but the paper does not say so.

However, if you look at the setup of the experiment you will find that

it is not comparing naturally occurring fats. " 17 healthy young men

replaced part of their habitual dietary fat intake with 70 g MCTs (66%

8:0 and 34% 10:0) or high-oleic sunflower oil (89.4% 18:1). "

The experiment is comparing a natural form of sunflower oil, with an

artificial concotion that maybe was derived from coconut oil, but is

not a natural fat. Note, that coconut oil has only 8% Caprylic acid

(C8:0) and 6% Capric acid (C10:0). As has been discussed in this

forum before, countries that use coconut oil as a primary oil for

cooking do not have elevated rates of cardiovasular disease. And my

web page does not advocate eating artificial concoctions of fats. On

the contrary, I advocate the use of natural fats that have been used

traditionally for hundreds or thousands of years. I also mention that

mother's milk has 20% more saturated fats than lard which is an

undeniable fact. If saturated fats are so bad, how have we managed to

survive for millions of years drinking mother's milk?

The experiment in the paper is trying to make a point by looking at an

extreme situation. By concentrating the mineral and organic material

in ordinary tap water, I can run an experiment that purports to show

that tap water is bad. Anything, taken in excess of the natural

balance found in nature is likely to cause unnatural reactions.

Tony

August 10, 2004

Hi JW:

My answer is: if there genuinely IS a requirement for ALA

specifically, then eat fish for EPA and DHA; eat safflower oil to get

the RDA of LA with the fewest calories; and eat some food which only

just gives the minimum of ALA.

But my suspicion is that there is no unique need for ALA. If so then

eat safflower oil to get the LA with the fewest total calories; and

get the EPA and DHA directly from fish.

Alternatively, if you know a healthy food source which will supply

the required LA with negligible ALA, substitute it for the safflower

oil.

(I use both olive oil and butter on those few occasions I consider

them absolutely necessary).

I am all ears to hear a better suggestion : ^ )))

Rodney.

--- In , " jwwright " <jwwright@e...>

wrote:

> Let's put the question this way: if you're only going to eat the

minimum fatty acids ~11 mgs of n-6 and 1-2 mgs of n-3, which fat/oil

and how much do you choose? That assumes there IS a requirement for

ALA, which is at the heart of the PCa problem.

>

> Regards.

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: citpeks

>

> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 3:03 PM

> Subject: [ ] Re: Prostate Cancer & Soy Products

>

> >>>>

> From: " old542000 " <apater@m...>

> Date: Tue Aug 10, 2004 1:38 pm

> Subject: Re: Prostate Cancer & Soy Products

> Hi All,

> See the from me pdf-available:

> http://tinyurl.com/48tq5 ,

> which says that the medium chain fatty acids are heart disease

risks,

> as opposed to the final paragraphs of:

> http://www.scientificpsychic.com/fitness/fattyacids.html

> Cheers, Al Pater.

> >>>>

>

> Hi Al,

>

> To quote the reference that you provided " CONCLUSIONS: Compared

with

> fat high in oleic acid, MCT[Medium Chain Triglycerides] fat

> unfavorably affected lipid profiles in healthy young men by

increasing

> plasma LDL cholesterol and triacylglycerol. " We can ASSUME that

this

> will increase heart disease risk, but the paper does not say so.

August 11, 2004

Hi JW:

So those numbers you quote below, the 11 mg and 1-2

mg, .................. are they pretty firm (i.e. reliable) numbers

for 'RDAs' for fats? And do we really want to get seven times as

much of n-6 as compared with n-3?

If they are form numbers, then we can take a stab at how little fish

(i.e. how few calories of fish) we can get away with eating, while

still satisfying our fats' requirements.

Rodney.

--- In , " jwwright " <jwwright@e...>

wrote:

> Let's put the question this way: if you're only going to eat the

minimum fatty acids ~11 mgs of n-6 and 1-2 mgs of n-3, which fat/oil

and how much do you choose? That assumes there IS a requirement for

ALA, which is at the heart of the PCa problem.

>

> Regards.

August 11, 2004

Well, lets look at this problem in terms of paleo-anthropology. We

weren't grinding up seeds or nuts and ingesting the expelled oil on

tubers, etc... Whatever LA/ALA that was consumed in vegetables was

in relatively small amounts. What was in significant amounts in the

diet was a high ratio of ALA to LA in meat, DHA/EPA from fish and OA

in olives.

Thus, if you need to use an oil, it sounds ideal to me to use

specifically High Oleic Sunflower Oil. It's trans-fat free, higher

in OA than olive oil, low in saturated fat, and is not radically

loaded with polyunsaturates as the other vegetable oils (99% of which

require refination to be shelf-stable, which produces trans-fats).

The composition is: 85-87% mono, 5% LA, 8% saturated. In comparison,

olive oil: 70% mono, 16% LA, 14% saturated. Both lack ALA

alltogether.

Considering soybean and canola oils are not shelf-stable unless

refined/hydrogenated and both do contain significant quantities of

ALA unlike other vegetable oils, I suspect at this point that the

trans-fat end-product could be the root problem for the ALA/prostate

correlation, not ALA per se. ALA is notoriously unstable when

exposed to heat, light or oxygen.

BTW, butter has 5% trans-fat out of its total fat. Naturally

occuring.

Logan

--- In , " Rodney " <perspect1111@y...>

> (I use both olive oil and butter on those few occasions I consider

> them absolutely necessary).

>

> I am all ears to hear a better suggestion : ^ )))

>

> Rodney.

August 11, 2004

Is this your personal opinion or do you have something to contradict

the latest findings about our warm-region paleo-diet (which is what

my " assumption " is)?

Logan

--- In , " jwwright " <jwwright@e...>

wrote:

> I think the jury is still out on that assumption.

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