RE: Re: Desirable Protein Intake

[Guest guest]

Thanks for that ref. Been looking for it.

I've been reading the CR groups since Sherman proposed the higher P req't and I NEVER agreed with his method based on extending a 2 point curve outside the data into a "CR domain". He has no data to support that math. In fact he said in his nov 1, 1999 post (I happen to have all those on my PC):

"I think its time to inject some hard, cold numbersinto this protein discussion. I have discovered whatI think is solid evidence that CR people need to eatmore protein than the standard RDAs, and more than isrecommended by Walford. This data comesfrom Modern Nutrition in Health and Disease, 8th ed.,1994, Ch. 1, pp. 24-29. The faulty reasoning below ismy own.

But don't pull out your calculator just yet. In thediscussion on computing protein requirements, the book says Nitrogen balance is also affected by energy {pg 24} intake. ... N balance becomes progressively more negative as energy intake is reduced below the needs of the body. ... A direct relationship exists between energy intake and N balance from negative at low-energy levels to positive at excessive intakes of energy."

A table then shows measured requirements varying bya factor of two over a calorie intake range from57 cal/kg (RDA would be 0.5g/kg) to 40 cal/kg(RDA would be 1.02g/kg). Now I personally weigh about 57 kg and eat about1750 cal/day. This is not particularly low for a CRdiet, yet at 31 cal/kg is way off the chart. Fortunately thedata were fairly linear at that end, so I extendedthe table with a ruler and came up with a requirementof 1.5g/kg! That is near double the US RDA of 0.8g/kgand would put my daily requirement for protein at 87g, whichis about what I eat."

I suggest you buy the book (2 vols) - they're cheap because the 1999 edition is out. You won't find the data in the 1999 ed. If you can look at the ref and come to some conclusion about protein for CRer's, I'd like to hear it.

You can also draw a chart on paper as he did using MNHD data for "normal" humans and extend the line as he did. I will not base MY protein intake on that kind of logic.

But look at the table he took the data from on pg 24. It clearly states 72 grams is the safe level for N2 balance at an energy intake of 40 kcal/kg- 70 kg man. And 35 gms at 57kcal/kg intake - 70 kg man.

This chart - this study does not go into the CR domain.

There is no suggestion that you eat below 40 kcal/kg. The chart merely shows if you eat more calories you will need less protein %. So what does it say for less than 40 - nothing. There's no data - they didn't do the study there.

Put this into excel and draw the chart (XY scatter):

kcals/kg grams P

40

72

45

52

48

44

57

35

Now guess how you might extend that curve to say 22 kcals/kg?

I live at 22 kcals/kg, 56 grams and don't lose weight. That's a key point wouldn't you say? Because a human will lose weight without sufficient protein.

Now look what happens when I put in my data:

22

56

40

72

45

52

48

44

57

35

Second order curve, perhaps? Maybe my conclusion is I better determine my own data?

Protein turnover logically is increased due to energy shortage. Replacing with more Protein would waste more calories. That's my take - it doesn't pass the logic test.

I burn 1800 kcals at 175#, when Sherman burns almost as much (1750) at 125#, because he's less efficient burning protein for energy.

I can't use that info reliably for my protein req't or for recommendation to others. So I have to fall back on the IOM for averages and bands. Or I have to determine it for my own body. The band is large, Like from 36 to 225 gms. Some outliers need a large amount. Mins is nicely just left of the peak in the bell.

Can you think of a test that you could use on yourself to determine if you're wasting calories using excess Protein?

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: beneathremains

Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 8:54 AM

Subject: [ ] Re: Desirable Protein Intake

I hardly view the RDA's based on a 2000 calorie American Boobus diet at 60% carbohydrates having any applicability to CRON. In CR animals, protein turnover is more rapid and not all proteins are reclaimed. There is an interplay among these factors:Desire Less Body Weight = Eat Less ProteinDesire Less Body Fat = Eat More ProteinDesire Less Calories = Eat More ProteinAnd vice versa. For a male to be 175 lbs -- which is the suggested fitness weight for a large framed man at 6'0" or a medium framed man at 6'2" or a small framed man at 6'4" -- at 15% body fat (the average for males) and eating 1800 calories, that's 173 grams of protein (39%), 145 grams of carbohydrates (25%) and 72 grams of fat (36%).The formula and rational is at:crsociety/message/4224Logan--- In , "Rodney" <perspect1111@y...> > > RDAs for protein, males and females, any age over 19:> > > > weight -- protein> > ------ - ----------> > (lbs) -- (g) (kcal)> > ------ - ---- ----> > 200 ---> 74 - 296> > 190 ---> 70 - 280> > 180 ---> 66 - 264> > 170 ---> 62 - 248> > 160 ---> 58 - 232> > 150 ---> 54 - 216> > 140 ---> 51 - 204> > 130 ---> 47 - 188

[Guest guest]

Voila! I think you're seeing what I'm seen. They are wasting in my opinion. BTW, that's Sherm's formula. Just a math version of the data I showed. The thing they leave out is that the equation may be 3 dimensional - probably is even many dimensions. All we see is the planar view, because that's the only data we have. I believe they have misapplied a very simplistic eq for a very complicated process.

Visualize a 10 dimensional equation, the curve squirreling around as a function of protein, fat , carbo availability, protein, fat requirements, energy requirements, hormonal influences, temperature of the environment, blood pressure, organ degradation, excess obesity load. There is no way it can be a simple equation.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: beneathremains

Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 11:32 PM

Subject: [ ] Re: Desirable Protein Intake

If this person is actually eating 1750 calories and only weighs 125 lbs, it would suggest to me his carbohydrate intake percentage is woefully inadequate to minimize catabolism and thus his body fat percentage is approaching (if not at) bodybuilder levels (5%-9%) but without the corresponding muscle mass. For this amount of calories and body weight, Rae's formula suggests only 98 grams to 121 grams of protein, but 189 to 212 grams of carbohydrates (depending on body fat percentage). That is hardly an excessive amount of protein to be assured of maximizing protein synthesis, but if someone can eat that much carbohydrates and still weigh only 125lbs over time, they've got a serious case of insulin resistance or a wasting disease!As for a test, I would suppose body temperature upon waking could help pinpoint the margin? That is, of course, presuming "excess" protein and a subsequent normal body temperature in a state of CR is a net negative as opposed to carbohydrates producing excess insulin and serum glucose levels turning off CR gene expression. I'm not particularly impressed by the "toxic metabolism byproducts" theory of aging, otherwise antioxidants would have been found to been correlated with extending maximum lifespan rather than gene expression. Antioxidants belong to the ON in CRON, not CR.Like Rodney, I do wish there were more CR studies specifically controlling for all the possible variables, especially macronutrient ratios and macronutrient types. But I think there is enough evidence now from paleoanthropology, diabetics and sports nutrition to give more credence to Rae's formula over the RDA. The absolute amount of protein may be much more important than the percentage as it will necessarily become a smaller percentage when the amount of carbohydrates/fat is increased. But theoretically, not everyone can maintain their lean muscle mass on just 130 grams of carbohydrates a day due to varying levels of physical activity, insulin resistance, biochemistry, et al.. If protein needs to be fixed, and carbohydrates need to be at least a minimum for the brain to function (and not waste the protein being converted into glucose), then only fat is left to be tweaked... and then, like Jeff says, there's no need to specifically add fat to the diet beyond EFA's.Logan--- In , "jwwright" <jwwright@e...> > I burn 1800 kcals at 175#, when Sherman burns almost as much (1750) at 125#, because he's less efficient burning protein for energy. >> Can you think of a test that you could use on yourself to determine if you're wasting calories using excess Protein?

[Guest guest]

>>Visualize a 10 dimensional equation, the curve squirreling around as a

function of protein, fat , carbo availability, protein, fat requirements, energy

requirements, hormonal influences, temperature of the environment, blood

pressure, organ degradation, excess obesity load.

I did and got dizzy.

[Guest guest]

Hey Jeff: and what about the sea level of your location.

Some questions to all.

1) is there any touble with power aislates soy protein?

2) if a statement is your quality deposited fat is in relationship on your meals and fat is a major endocrine system what about of the pattern of segregates hormones based on differents fat deposites, is there any paper on that?

thanks in advance for the answers.

Regards .

----- Original Message -----

From: Jeff Novick

Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2004 8:18 AM

Subject: RE: [ ] Re: Desirable Protein Intake

>>Visualize a 10 dimensional equation, the curve squirreling around as a function of protein, fat , carbo availability, protein, fat requirements, energy requirements, hormonal influences, temperature of the environment, blood pressure, organ degradation, excess obesity load. I did and got dizzy.

[Guest guest]

I assume you're talking Soy protein isolate.

Here's a few of the recent articles:

CONCLUSION: The present study did not find a significant positive effect of soy protein isolate supplemented with isoflavones on BMD and the serum lipid profile in early postmenopausal women.PMID: 15167308

The results indicate that long-term consumption of a diet rich in soy isoflavones can have marked influences on patterns of aggressive and social behavior. (monkeys)

PMID: 15053944

Overall, this study demonstrates for the first time that SPI upregulates hepatic TRbeta1 expression, and that isoflavones reduce the hepatic TRalpha1 level in young male rats. The SPI-induced TRbeta1 may play a role in mediating the hypocholesterolemic and lipid-lowering actions of soy protein.PMID: 15051820

Thus, SPI was as effective as fish oil in reducing the severity of retinoid-induced hypertriglyceridemia in an animal model, suggesting that it may be effective for this purpose in human subjects.PMID: 15023398

We conclude that a diet rich in beta-conglycinin has atheroprotective effects that greatly exceed those of isoflavone-containing soy protein isolate and do not depend on LDL receptors or influences on plasma lipoproteins.PMID: 14988439

CONCLUSIONS: In healthy postmenopausal women, dietary soy isoflavones do not affect in vivo biological indicators of estrogenicity, including hepatic protein synthesis and gonadotropin concentrations. This suggests that soy isoflavones have little biologically relevant estrogenic effect in vivo in postmenopausal women.PMID: 14985213

We conclude that a diet containing approximately 40 mg/kg soy isoflavone aglycones with a genistein:daidzein ratio of 2:1 or less has marked estrogenic effects on the reproductive system of male and female mice.PMID: 14713553

These data, while confirming the well-known lipid lowering properties of soy proteins, indicate, in this animal model, a remarkable activity on a focal atheromatous lesion, possibly also linked to a powerful antioxidant activity.PMID: 14644384

This perked me. We needed another RAS:

Clin Exp Hypertens. 2004 May;26(4):387-98.

Related Articles,

Links

Adipose tissue as an endocrine organ? A review of recent data related to cardiovascular complications of endocrine dysfunctions.Pantanetti P, Garrapa GG, Mantero F, Boscaro M, Faloia E, Venarucci D.Clinica di Endocrinologia, Istituto di Medicina Clinica, Universita Politecnica delle Marche, Ancona, Italy.Clinical and experimental data obtained in the last few years have modified the concept of adipose tissue as one solely directed at energy storage and release. The adipose tissue is a target organ for glucocorticoids and several studies have been carried out on the function of hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis in obese subjects without conclusive results. A recent and innovative finding is that adipose tissue can produce cortisol from its inactive precursor, cortisone. The identification of leptin, a hormone synthesised by fat tissue, has ushered in the modern view of this tissue as a true endocrine organ. Leptin is produced primarily by subcutaneous and to a lesser extent by visceral adipose tissue, and has a central role in controlling body weight and, especially in regulating fat stores. Leptin is also involved in several complex functions, including physiological processes associated with puberty. Another hormone of fat tissue is angiotensinogen, which is produced in larger amounts by visceral than subcutaneous fat. Human and animals adipose tissue express a whole renin-angiotensin system (RAS). Angiotensin II, the final effector of this system is probably produced locally by adipose tissue. The function of adipose RAS is not well known. RAS can participate together with other hormones and substances, in adipocyte differentiation and fat tissue growth, but could be also involved in the pathogenesis of complications of obesity including arterial hypertension.PMID: 15195692

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: Orfilio Franco

Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2004 9:21 AM

Subject: Re: [ ] Re: Desirable Protein Intake

Hey Jeff: and what about the sea level of your location.

Some questions to all.

1) is there any touble with power aislates soy protein?

2) if a statement is your quality deposited fat is in relationship on your meals and fat is a major endocrine system what about of the pattern of segregates hormones based on differents fat deposites, is there any paper on that?

thanks in advance for the answers.

Regards .

[Guest guest]

CONCLUSIONS: Consumption of tomato powder but not lycopene inhibited prostate carcinogenesis, suggesting that tomato products contain compounds in addition to lycopene that modify prostate carcinogenesis. Diet restriction also reduced the risk of prostate cancer. Tomato phytochemicals and diet restriction may act by independent mechanisms.PMID: 14600090

Except that rats don't get PCa naturally. A little more protection would be nice.

Do we know if ALA excites PCa? Current knowledge it is bad for advanced PCa.

Or maybe Fish oil protects against PCa?

Diet restriction possibly works by lowering nutrition to cancer, but that doesn't cause apoptosis.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: old542000

Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2004 7:22 PM

Subject: [ ] Re: Desirable Protein Intake

Hi All,But, see PMID: 14600090 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] and other papers saying CR protects strongly from prostate cancer, and CRONers eat loads of tomato products also.Cheers, Al.