Re: macro nutrients, sat fats

[Guest guest]

Rodney,

You wonder why " this has not been pursued with enthusiasm by the

science community " .

It is a matter of comercial interests ($$$). If everybody knew that

by adding a teaspoon of safflower oil to each meal they could lower

their cholesterol who would benefit? Only the oil manufacturers and

the public. However, if you keep that information out of reach of the

average Joe, you can sell them Smart Balance margarine, Lipitor, diet

aids, etc. It is a HUGE market for drug and food manufacturers. The

pharmaceutical companies can take control of the situation by

constantly promoting their products (and giving free samples) to the

doctors. If the doctors don't know that simple diet modification can

improve cholesterol levels, they will prescribe the drugs because

there are studies, thoughtfully provided by the drug companies, that

show that drugs work.

Who is going to fund a study of sunflower oil or safflower oil for

cholesterol reduction? How much would a consumer spend on 3 teaspoons

of oil per day? Pennies. Such research is not commercially feasible

-- there is no return on investment.

This is my pessimistic opinion.

As to the myristic acid question. The percentage of myristic acid is

greater in butter (11%) than in tallow (3%). We have already seen the

results of trying to replace butter with margarine. The replacements

have generally been worse than the natural product because of

hydrogenated fats. The Greek feta in olive oil seems to be the right

approach. Add enough olive oil so that the linoleic acid counteracts

the myristic acid in the butterfat of the cheese -- and don't overeat

to keep the calories low.

Tony

>>>

From: " Rodney " <perspect1111@y...>

Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 3:14 pm

Subject: Re: macro nutrients, sat fats

.... if the dangers of saturated fats are

accounted for by only one fat component, and even more impressive, by

one which makes up only a small proportion of the saturated fats we

eat, then that is very remarkable, if true. And it is certainly news

to me.

I wonder why this has not been pursued with enthusiasm by the science

community and cattle engineered to have a much lower proportion of

myristic acid.

>>>

[Guest guest]

It's in a textbook:

Noble: Textbook of Primary Care Medicine, 3rd ed., Copyright © 2001 Mosby, Inc.

FACTORS INFLUENCING LIPID METABOLISM

Environmental

The Hegsted equation illustrates the relationship among the dietary consumption of cholesterol, saturated fats, and polyunsaturated fats on total serum cholesterol:Change in total serum cholesterol=2.10 (DeltaS) - 1.16 (DeltaP) + 0.0670 (DeltaC)[38]

DeltaS and DeltaP are the changes in the dietary content of saturated and polyunsaturated fatty acids in mg/dl, respectively. DeltaC is the change in dietary cholesterol consumption expressed in mg/1000 kcal. As can be ascertained from this equation, a diet high in saturated fat contributes more of an effect than dietary cholesterol on the total serum cholesterol levels. This more profound effect of saturated fat has been attributed to its ability to alter (reduce) LDL receptor activity, thereby leading to elevated LDL cholesterol. With this knowledge and the fact that saturated fat is quite atherogenic, primary care physicians should counsel patients on modifying their dietary habits accordingly.

Lipid profiles, in general, are also negatively influenced by corticosteroids, anabolic steroids, cimetidine, thiazide diuretics, and beta-blockers without intrinsic sympathomimetic activity. The importance of these factors in altering the course of CHD, however, has yet to be definitively proved.

[That's exogenous - don't forget the endogenous]

Pathways of lipid metabolism. The exogenous pathway (left) describes the absorption of metabolism of fats ingested from dietary sources. Absorbed fats form chylomicrons, which move from lymph into the bloodstream where insulin activates lipoprotein lipase to release fatty acids for use by muscle or fat. The endogenous pathway (right) depicts formation of lipoproteins within the liver followed by metabolism in other parts of the body and return to the liver.

[see it at mdconsult along with another that explains a lot about cholesterol. Just a few excerpts to interest yall. Quite an interesting article. It doesn't contradict your article but adds a lot of info about serum cholesterol. I'll stick to low fat.]

High-density lipoprotein: epidemiology, metabolism, and antiatherogenic effects.

Disease-A-MonthVolume 47 • Number 8 • August 2001Copyright © 2001 Mosby, Inc.

High-density Lipoprotein: Epidemiology, Metabolism, and Antiatherogenic Effects

During the last four decades, an enormous amount of investigation has yielded important insights into the mechanisms by which lipoproteins participate in atherogenesis. [1] [2] A number of clinical intervention trials have shown that reducing serum levels of low-density lipoprotein (LDL) is associated with significant reductions in both the morbidity and mortality of cardiovascular disease.[3] Consistent with these findings, the Expert Panel of the National Cholesterol Education Program (NCEP) continues to place primary emphasis on serum LDL for risk assessment and has defined target levels for the primary and secondary prevention of atherosclerotic vascular disease.[4]

A low level of serum high-density lipoprotein (HDL) is an established, independent causal risk factor for CAD.[5] It is estimated that up to one third of patients with CAD have normal LDL levels but have isolated low HDL (=35 mg/dL).[6]

In the United States, isolated low HDL (defined as HDL =35 mg/dL, LDL <160 mg/dL, and triglycerides <250 mg/dL) is a characteristic of approximately 11% of men and 3% of women.[32]

Another observation in this study is that diabetic men with ILHDL have a mortality rate 65% greater than diabetics whose HDL is >35 mg/dL. In a prospective cohort of 6408 Japanese men of age 40 to 59 years, who lived in Osaka and had a normal (by Western standards) mean serum TC <200 mg/dL, low HDL was associated with increased risk for CAD.[34]

..[97] These investigators found that this mutation did not affect risk for CAD. Given these findings, one cannot a priori assume that any increase in serum HDL will automatically decrease risk for CAD. Much will also depend on changes in specific HDL subfractions and in other lipoproteins wrought by the activity of various HL alleles.

Either as monotherapy or in combination with a statin or fibrate, niacin is an extremely valuable drug for raising serum HDL. Niacin appears to increase HDL levels by blocking hepatic catabolism of apoA-I.[156] [157]

The prime molecular mechanism by which elevated serum HDL protects against atherosclerotic disease is its ability to promote RCT.

The specific mechanism by which HDL extracts cholesterol from vascular walls has been an area of intensive investigation for many years.

HDL is a potent inhibitor of endothelial adhesion molecule expression.

Platelets and coagulation factors play important roles in atherogenesis and such acute coronary syndromes as unstable angina and MI.[288] [291] HDL modulates a variety of prothrombotic events.

HDL may modulate a variety of other processes linked to atherosclerosis.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: citpeks

Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 1:26 PM

Subject: [ ] Re: macro nutrients, sat fats

This is why I prefer detailed quantitative data. You can eliminatespurious correlations.I would like to repeat my question from Message 14624:Does anybody have any evidence to contradict the Hegsted equation orPerlman's work?Tony

[Guest guest]

comments below

-----Original Message-----

From: Rodney [mailto:perspect1111@...]

Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 2:14 PM

Subject: [ ] Re: macro nutrients, sat fats

Hi Tony:

I wonder why this has not been pursued with enthusiasm by the science

community and cattle engineered to have a much lower proportion of

myristic acid. (After all we do now have what they call omega-3

eggs).

Perhaps I will do a search for myristic acid and cholesterol, or CVD,

or CHD or whatever. If I find some good results I will post.

Rodney.

=====================

Probably because the majority of people buying food buy it for taste not

health benefits.

Omega 3 eggs come from chickens fed supplemented chicken feed. If I'm going

to supplement my omega 3 intake why pass it through a chicken first, and pay

2-3x for my eggs in the process?

On the subject of beef, it is pretty well known that grass fed beef is

healthier (and cheaper), but guess what? Grain fed beef tastes better.

Perhaps ironic that the healthier but cheaper grass fed beef from NZ or SA

ends up in fast food.

JR

[Guest guest]

>>Omega 3 eggs come from chickens fed supplemented chicken feed. If I'm

going to supplement my omega 3 intake why pass it through a chicken

first, and pay 2-3x for my eggs in the process?

Thanks!

Has to be one of the funnier things I have heard lately.

With permission, I am going to " steal " your comment for my class with

appropriate credit if requested

Jeff

[Guest guest]

You know ,

if U.S. beef was fed nothing but grain, we couldn't buy it. They eat a lot of grass. Might not be the "right" grass, but it's grass, optimized for protein content not fatty acids perhaps. The problem is not what we feed the cattle, but what we feed ourselves.

And we do feed a lot of soy to chickens, turkey, pork and there are beef supplements. Unfortunately there are also folks feeding things to cattle like turkey litter - not here where grass is plentiful, but in places where waste products have to be dealt with economically. I won't mention where but it's close to unc. Somehow cattle can digest more crap than other animals, like waste orange peel, sawdust even tree leaves.

And I don't really know what the Aussies are feeding their cattle, ie, the beef they send here and gets into our fast food restaurants. But, I'll bet it doesn't have a lot of purslane in it.

That's why I'm lacto veggie, except for a little shellfish, and egg white.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From:

Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 2:57 PM

Subject: RE: [ ] Re: macro nutrients, sat fats

comments below-----Original Message-----From: Rodney [mailto:perspect1111@...]Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 2:14 PM Subject: [ ] Re: macro nutrients, sat fatsHi Tony:I wonder why this has not been pursued with enthusiasm by the sciencecommunity and cattle engineered to have a much lower proportion ofmyristic acid. (After all we do now have what they call omega-3eggs).Perhaps I will do a search for myristic acid and cholesterol, or CVD,or CHD or whatever. If I find some good results I will post.Rodney.=====================Probably because the majority of people buying food buy it for taste nothealth benefits.Omega 3 eggs come from chickens fed supplemented chicken feed. If I'm goingto supplement my omega 3 intake why pass it through a chicken first, and pay2-3x for my eggs in the process?On the subject of beef, it is pretty well known that grass fed beef ishealthier (and cheaper), but guess what? Grain fed beef tastes better.Perhaps ironic that the healthier but cheaper grass fed beef from NZ or SAends up in fast food.JR

[Guest guest]

Be my guest... no credit required. Tell your class to take the money they

save and buy some canned AK salmon. Store brand at Wal-Mart is < $1.50.

If they want omega 3 eggs, I'd make an omelet.

JR

-----Original Message-----

From: Jeff Novick [mailto:jnovick@...]

Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 3:06 PM

Subject: RE: [ ] Re: macro nutrients, sat fats

>>Omega 3 eggs come from chickens fed supplemented chicken feed. If I'm

going to supplement my omega 3 intake why pass it through a chicken

first, and pay 2-3x for my eggs in the process?

Thanks!

Has to be one of the funnier things I have heard lately.

With permission, I am going to " steal " your comment for my class with

appropriate credit if requested

Jeff

-

[Guest guest]

> Perlman's equation is basically telling us that a ratio of ~4:1

> linoleic acid to myristic acid will essentially have NO effect on

> serum cholesterol because the effect of linoleic acid cancels the

> effect of myristic acid.

Would that be in line with postulations about the fatty acid

composition of Paleolithic diets?

I can't help but feel that if what Perlman equation shows is true,

the high LA intake in the S.A.D. doesn't seem to be having much

protective effect? Is the saturated fat intake just too high even

for the high LA intake?

Of course, inherent in the equation is the assumption that producing

cholesterol is a bad thing, but I don't want to get into that issue

again. :-) I'm merely glad that the lipid obsession is finally

heading off into new territory.

Logan

[Guest guest]

--- In , " " <crjohnr@b...>

wrote:

> Omega 3 eggs come from chickens fed supplemented chicken feed. If

> I'm going to supplement my omega 3 intake why pass it through a

> chicken first, and pay 2-3x for my eggs in the process?

Speaking of these eggs, does anyone know if the flax seed fed to the

chickens winds up being converted into GLA/DHA/EPA in the eggs?

Logan

[Guest guest]

--- In , " Jeff Novick " <jnovick@p...>

wrote:

> Its NOT the olive oil.

>

> http://my.webmd.com/content/article/67/80070.htm?lastselectedguid=

{5FE84

> E90-BC77-4056-A91C-9531713CA348}

>

> Adherence to a Mediterranean Diet and Survival in a Greek Population

> Antonia Trichopoulou, M.D., Tina Costacou, Ph.D., Bamia,

> Ph.D., and Dimitrios Trichopoulos, M.D.

> NEJM Volume 348:2599-2608 June 26, 2003 Number 26

Hi All,

For our information from the available pdf:

In terms of g/day taken: cereals* were 177.7 and legumes were 9.1. I

would imagine that most or many of the processed cereals contained

wheat, when:

I would imagine that most or many of the processed cereals contained

wheat, when:

" Cereals included flour, cereal flakes, starches, pasta, rice,

other grain, bread, crisp bread, rusks, breakfast cereals,

biscuits, dough, pastry, and other cereal products. "

Trichopoulou A, Costacou T, Bamia C, Trichopoulos D.

Adherence to a Mediterranean diet and survival in a Greek population.

N Engl J Med. 2003 Jun 26;348(26):2599-2608.

PMID: 12826634 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Table 2.Daily Dietary Intake of Several Dietary Variable

in Relation to Mediterranean-Diet Score.

All Variables (g/day)

Vegetables 549.9

Fruits and nuts 362.5

Nonalcoholic beverages (including juices) 337.5

Dairy products 196.7

Cereals* 177.7

Meat 120.8

Potatoes 88.7

Olive oil 45.5

Fish 23.7

Sweets 22.8

Eggs 16.3

Legumes 9.1

Monounsaturated lipids 55.9

Saturated lipids 33.1

Polyunsaturated lipids 15.0

Percentage energy from saturated lipids 12.6

Ratio of monounsaturated lipids to saturated lipids 1.7

Energy intake (kJ/day)** 9851.4 = 2.357 kcal

*Cereals included flour, cereal flakes, starches, pasta, rice,

other grain, bread, crisp bread, rusks, breakfast cereals,

biscuits, dough, pastry, and other cereal products.

**To convert values for energy intake to kilocalories,divide by

4.184.

Cheers, Al Pater.

[Guest guest]

I didn't keep the original patent number but from a quick surf of the PTO I

found this one 6,316,041

clip,,, from patent claims....

7. A poultry feed for production of eggs with enhanced health and nutritive

values for human consumption wherein the feed for egg-laying hens has a

supplemented content comprising (1) between about 0.01 to 10 grams of a

cholesterol-lowering agent, (2) between about 1.4 to 8 grams of total

omega-3 unsaturated fatty acid, (3) docosahexaenoic acid in an amount up to

6 grams, (4) conjugated linoleic acid in an amount up to 100 milligrams, (5)

vitamin E in an amount up to 400 milligrams, (6) folate in an amount up to

250 micrograms, (7) iodine derivative in an amount up to 400 micrograms, (8)

carotenoid pigment in an amount up to 40 milligrams and a cholesterol

reducing effective amount of a cholesterol reducing agent comprising the

combination of a phytosterol and Monascus Red Yeast Rice, each of said

amounts based on 1 kilogram of said poultry feed.

8. A poultry feed in accordance with claim 7 wherein the phytosterol is in a

form selected from the group consisting of tall oil phytosterol extract,

canola oil phytosterol extract, soy oil phytosterol extract and mixtures

thereof.

9. A poultry feed in accordance with claim 7 wherein the phytosterol is

selected from the group consisting of .beta.-sitosterol, .beta.-sitostanol,

campesterol, campestanol, stigmasterol, brassicasterol, brassicastanol, and

mixtures thereof.

10. A poultry feed in accordance with claim 7 wherein the

cholesterol-lowering agent is the combination of phytosterol, Monascus Red

Yeast Rice and a copper derivative

------------------

They use canola meal in the feed but I didn't see any mention of flax meal.

I believe there may be more than this one patent though... they referenced

about 15-20 others but I don't care enough to look any up.

It looks like their goal was lowering cholesterol and saturated fat (copper

and red yeast rice) as well as increasing the Omega 3.

JR

-----Original Message-----

From: loganruns73 [mailto:loganruns73@...]

Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 7:08 PM

Subject: [ ] Re: macro nutrients, sat fats

--- In , " " <crjohnr@b...>

wrote:

> Omega 3 eggs come from chickens fed supplemented chicken feed. If

> I'm going to supplement my omega 3 intake why pass it through a

> chicken first, and pay 2-3x for my eggs in the process?

Speaking of these eggs, does anyone know if the flax seed fed to the

chickens winds up being converted into GLA/DHA/EPA in the eggs?

Logan

[Guest guest]

Like Francesca has said several times, Paleolithic diets probably

consisted of whatever they could catch, but assuming that a typical

diet consisted of 400 grams of meat with 30% fat, you would need 37

grams of sunflower seeds to have enough linoleic acid to balance the

cholesteremic effect of myristic acid in the meat fat.

400g meat with 30%fat

= 120g fat with 3% myristic acid (C14:0) -> 1080 Calories

= 280g protein & carbs -> 1120 calories

37g sunflower seeds with 50% fat -> 213 calories

(68% linoleic acid (C18:2))

The meat fat has 3.6g myristic acid. The sunflower seeds have 12.6g

linoleic acid.

Delta SC =

+ 9.10 * 3.6

- 1.78 * 12.6

- 10.15

= -0.2 Serum cholesterol remains unaffected.

Total calories add up to 2,413 which is not unreasonable for an active

Paleolithic person. Of course, this is only speculation. The meat

with sunflower seeds menu really sounds like it came from the Atkins

diet, but it might have been a likely option during the winter months.

Tony

>>> Perlman's Equation:

Delta SC =

+ 9.10 Delta C14:0 (myristic acid)

- 1.78 Delta C18:2 (linoleic acid)

- 10.15

>>>

From: " loganruns73 " <loganruns73@y...>

Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 8:02 pm

Subject: Re: macro nutrients, sat fats

> Perlman's equation is basically telling us that a ratio of ~4:1

> linoleic acid to myristic acid will essentially have NO effect on

> serum cholesterol because the effect of linoleic acid cancels the

> effect of myristic acid.

Would that be in line with postulations about the fatty acid

composition of Paleolithic diets?

>>>