Re: macronutrient content

[Guest guest]

ly, it's hard to believe that Dr. W would say such a thing.

See pp. 232 (among other places) in " Beyond " ...in which he says that no

more than 20-25% of your calories should come from fat.

on 9/3/2004 2:36 PM, howardehorton at howardehorton@... wrote:

> Is anyone experienced as to whether it makes a difference in the

> macronutrient content relative to certain positive outcomes of CRON

> eg lower BMI, BP, lipids, etc.? Assuming an average male is

> consuming 1500 calories and they are nutritious calories, does it

> matter if 50% comes from fat as compared to 50% from carbs? I

> believe I once spoke with Dr. Walford and he indicated that benefits

> were achieved independent of the balance between proteins/carbs/fats

> so long as calories were reduced. However, his dietary plan (and the

> Biosphere diet) were largely vegetarian in nature. Any thoughts?

>

[Guest guest]

> > Is anyone experienced as to whether it makes a difference in the

macronutrient content relative to certain positive outcomes of CRON eg lower

BMI, BP, lipids, etc.? Assuming an average male is consuming 1500 calories and

they are nutritious calories, does it matter if 50% comes from fat as compared

to 50% from carbs?

I guess you " could " get some benefit from " CR " regardless of the macronutrient

content of the diet, especially if you are switching over from a more typical

american style diet. However, I dont think it is possible to achieve " CR " with

" ON " and achieve all the benefits on a CR diet that has 50% (or more) of its

calories coming from fat.

The reason is that as the percentage of calories from fat in the diet go up and

above the basic amount of fat needed to provide the EFAs (and maybe a little

extra " buffer " ), the nutrient density of the diet goes down.

High fat foods are the most calorie dense foods and at the same time, except for

maybe one or two minor exceptions, they are not the most nurient dense foods.

When you look at foods, as the percent of fat goes up in a food, the overall

nutrient density of the food goes down.

Therefore, I would challange you to try and design a diet that is 50% fat and

that is also nutrient dense, providing the needed amount of all the known

nutrients. Than try the same experiment with a diet that is lower in fat

(15-25%) and higher in carbohydrate ( >50%).

I think you will see the difference in the nutrient content.

[Guest guest]

Hi :

My take, fwiw, is this: Overwhelmingly the two most important things

to get right are total calories (much less than the conventional

wisdom would have us believe) and high micronutrient values. Beyond

that we are likely talking about much less important details.

I do not doubt that there IS an optimal macronutrient ratio, from

which we would all benefit, at least somewhat, if only we knew what

it is and were to adopt it.

My **BIAS** is that fat calories should be below 25% - of the right

kinds of fats. But from what I have seen I don't think large,

properly designed, empirical studies have yet been done to provide

conclusive evidence of the best macronutrient ratios.

If anyone believes there is really good evidence on this, I sure

would like to become acquainted with it!

Perhaps the good folks at the Nurses' Health Study and the

Physicians' Health Study will eventually get around to massaging the

answer from their mountain of data. But I rather doubt they will be

able to come up with what we here in this group would like to know:

whether a particular macronutrient ratio will further improve upon

40% caloric restriction. Large though those databases are, they must

have very few subjects who have been significantly calorically

restricted for long enough to yield meaningful results.

Rodney.

> Is anyone experienced as to whether it makes a difference in the

> macronutrient content relative to certain positive outcomes of CRON

> eg lower BMI, BP, lipids, etc.? Assuming an average male is

> consuming 1500 calories and they are nutritious calories, does it

> matter if 50% comes from fat as compared to 50% from carbs? I

> believe I once spoke with Dr. Walford and he indicated that

benefits

> were achieved independent of the balance between

proteins/carbs/fats

> so long as calories were reduced. However, his dietary plan (and

the

> Biosphere diet) were largely vegetarian in nature. Any thoughts?

[Guest guest]

> > Is anyone experienced as to whether it makes a difference in the

macronutrient content relative to certain positive outcomes of CRON eg lower

BMI, BP, lipids, etc.? Assuming an average male is consuming 1500 calories and

they are nutritious calories, does it matter if 50% comes from fat as compared

to 50% from carbs?

I guess you " could " get some benefit from " CR " regardless of the macronutrient

content of the diet, especially if you are switching over from a more typical

american style diet. However, I dont think it is possible to achieve " CR " with

" ON " and achieve all the benefits on a CR diet that has 50% (or more) of its

calories coming from fat.

The reason is that as the percentage of calories from fat in the diet go up and

above the basic amount of fat needed to provide the EFAs (and maybe a little

extra " buffer " ), the nutrient density of the diet goes down.

High fat foods are the most calorie dense foods and at the same time, except for

maybe one or two minor exceptions, they are not the most nurient dense foods.

When you look at foods, as the percent of fat goes up in a food, the overall

nutrient density of the food goes down.

Therefore, I would challange you to try and design a diet that is 50% fat and

that is also nutrient dense, providing the needed amount of all the known

nutrients. Than try the same experiment with a diet that is lower in fat

(15-25%) and higher in carbohydrate ( >50%).

I think you will see the difference in the nutrient content.

[Guest guest]

Hi :

I also expect that, twenty years from now, enough studies will have

been done that we will have a pretty good idea about the ideal

macronutrient ratios. I think the same arguments about macronutrient

ratios also likely apply to the meal frequency issue. My bet is that

in a few years studies will show, probably small, incremental

improvements in health, beyond those of caloric restriction, may also

be derived from some optimal meal size/frequency. But again, I do

not believe we have serious evidence, yet, to provide an

authoritative answer.

[indeed, I emailed two of the more prominent exponents of fasting,

whose entire livelihoods depend on fees from clients seeking guidance

on the topic. Neither of them was able (willing?) to provide

references to studies demonstrating benefit. Now you would think,

wouldn't you, that if anyone knew the sources, they would. Right?]

Rodney.

> > Is anyone experienced as to whether it makes a difference in the

> > macronutrient content relative to certain positive outcomes of

CRON

> > eg lower BMI, BP, lipids, etc.? Assuming an average male is

> > consuming 1500 calories and they are nutritious calories, does it

> > matter if 50% comes from fat as compared to 50% from carbs? I

> > believe I once spoke with Dr. Walford and he indicated that

> benefits

> > were achieved independent of the balance between

> proteins/carbs/fats

> > so long as calories were reduced. However, his dietary plan (and

> the

> > Biosphere diet) were largely vegetarian in nature. Any thoughts?

[Guest guest]

-----Original Message-----

From: Rodney [mailto:perspect1111@...]

Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 3:24 PM

Subject: [ ] Re: macronutrient content

Hi :

My take, fwiw, is this: Overwhelmingly the two most important things

to get right are total calories (much less than the conventional

wisdom would have us believe) and high micronutrient values. Beyond

that we are likely talking about much less important details.

----------clip-------

Rodney.

-

amen bro.... it's been a while but for the nth+1 time " macronutrient ratios

don't matter " , it's all about energy balance and nutrition.

Macronutrient ratios, BMI, and such are discussed ad nauseum because they're

easy to measure and people have so much idle time on their hands they try to

extract useful inferences from vague imprecise data.

JR

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[Guest guest]

Reportedly, fats are not as helpful to satiety as other foods:

http://www.mendosa.com/satdigest.htm

I seem to manage appetite better when I eats foods that contain high

amts of both fiber and water at the same time.

howardehorton wrote:

>Is anyone experienced as to whether it makes a difference in the macronutrient

content relative to certain positive outcomes of CRON eg lower BMI, BP, lipids,

etc.? Assuming an average male is consuming 1500 calories and they are

nutritious calories, does it matter if 50% comes from fat as compared to 50%

from carbs? I believe I once spoke with Dr. Walford and he indicated that

benefits were achieved independent of the balance between proteins/carbs/fats so

long as calories were reduced. However, his dietary plan (and the Biosphere

diet) were largely vegetarian in nature. Any thoughts?

>

>

>

>