Re: Lower Total Cholesterol >>> Live Longer

[Guest guest]

From the Study Rodney posted today..

>>Researchers found that a total cholesterol level of 193 or lower at

age 30 to 45 was associated with a 25% lower risk of death nearly four

decades later.

Well, Data from Framingham Heart Study showed that men in their 30s with

TC in the bottom 25% had about half the risk of dying from all causes

just 3 years latter.

[Guest guest]

>>>Well, Data from Framingham Heart Study showed that men in their 30s

with TC in the bottom 25% had about half the risk of dying from all

causes just 3 years latter.

Oops.....This is older but the new study supports the older study

The reference is....

KM, et al. Cholesterol and Mortality. JAMA 1987;257:2176-80.

[Guest guest]

How low, if any value, is too low for total cholesterol?

>From: " Jeff Novick " <jnovick@...>

>Reply-

>< >

>Subject: RE: [ ] Lower Total Cholesterol >>> Live Longer

>Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 16:24:05 -0400

>

>

>From the Study Rodney posted today..

>

> >>Researchers found that a total cholesterol level of 193 or lower at

>age 30 to 45 was associated with a 25% lower risk of death nearly four

>decades later.

>

>Well, Data from Framingham Heart Study showed that men in their 30s with

>TC in the bottom 25% had about half the risk of dying from all causes

>just 3 years latter.

[Guest guest]

Hi :

I am not aware of any lower limit for non-smokers. But I do remember

a major european study (was it in Hamburg?) found that very low LDL

among smokers was associated with increased total mortality because

of increased cancer incidence. Not exactly sure why. I believe the

data were posted here, perhaps six months ago.

The effects were large enough for smokers that the data for the total

population also showed higher total mortality at very low LDL

levels ....... being dragged up solely by the data from the smoking

contingent.

Rodney.

> How low, if any value, is too low for total cholesterol?

>

>

> >From: " Jeff Novick " <jnovick@p...>

> >Reply-

> >< >

> >Subject: RE: [ ] Lower Total Cholesterol >>> Live

Longer

> >Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 16:24:05 -0400

> >

> >

> >From the Study Rodney posted today..

> >

> > >>Researchers found that a total cholesterol level of 193 or

lower at

> >age 30 to 45 was associated with a 25% lower risk of death nearly

four

> >decades later.

> >

> >Well, Data from Framingham Heart Study showed that men in their

30s with

> >TC in the bottom 25% had about half the risk of dying from all

causes

> >just 3 years latter.

[Guest guest]

Hi :

I am not sure I understand what they are saying. When they say sex

was a major counfounder does that mean that the men (who tended to

die sooner) tended to have lower total cholesterol than the women? A

good way to avoid that problem might be simply to look at the data

for the males and females separately.

And which were the CVD risk factors that the people who had low

cholesterol also had, that caused it to appear, initially, that it

was the lower cholesterol that caused higher mortality? And are

those other risk factors the kind that people on CR might be expected

to have? Or are they risk factors CR people usually do not have?

This looks like one of those 'more questions than answers' abstracts!

Rodney.

> > > How low, if any value, is too low for total cholesterol?

> > >

> > >

> > > >From: " Jeff Novick " <jnovick@p...>

> > > >Reply-

> > > >< >

> > > >Subject: RE: [ ] Lower Total Cholesterol >>> Live

> >Longer

> > > >Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 16:24:05 -0400

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >From the Study Rodney posted today..

> > > >

> > > > >>Researchers found that a total cholesterol level of 193 or

> >lower at

> > > >age 30 to 45 was associated with a 25% lower risk of death

nearly

> >four

> > > >decades later.

> > > >

> > > >Well, Data from Framingham Heart Study showed that men in their

> >30s with

> > > >TC in the bottom 25% had about half the risk of dying from all

> >causes

> > > >just 3 years latter.

> >

[Guest guest]

The book " The Protein Power Life Plan " by Drs. Eades has a U-shaped

curve of " deaths from all causes " vs. Serum cholesterol (range 50 -

500 mg/dl) in page 100.

The minimum death rate is in the range of 160 to 220. Cholesterol

levels below 140 are as bad or worse than readings above 240. From

the chart, it looks like a cholesterol level of about 50 is associated

with the same level of deaths as cholesterol values of 450. The curve

is a lot steeper below 100 than above 300.

Tony

>>>

From: " Dowling " <dowlic@h...>

Date: Mon Sep 13, 2004 5:38 pm

Subject: RE: [ ] Lower Total Cholesterol >>> Live Longer

How low, if any value, is too low for total cholesterol?

>>>

[Guest guest]

Hi :

For what looks like some fairly authoritative data on this issue take

a look at post #13233, from the 'PROCAM' study - also called the

Münster Heart Study:

http://www.chd-taskforce.de/slidekit/kit4/slide2.htm

http://snipurl.com/7f2n

You will see an increase in mortality with lower LDL only for smokers.

Rodney.

> How low, if any value, is too low for total cholesterol?

>

>

> >From: " Jeff Novick " <jnovick@p...>

> >Reply-

> >< >

> >Subject: RE: [ ] Lower Total Cholesterol >>> Live

Longer

> >Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 16:24:05 -0400

> >

> >

> >From the Study Rodney posted today..

> >

> > >>Researchers found that a total cholesterol level of 193 or

lower at

> >age 30 to 45 was associated with a 25% lower risk of death nearly

four

> >decades later.

> >

> >Well, Data from Framingham Heart Study showed that men in their

30s with

> >TC in the bottom 25% had about half the risk of dying from all

causes

> >just 3 years latter.

[Guest guest]

Hi :

How much of that is HDL?

Rodney.

> > > How low, if any value, is too low for total cholesterol?

> > >

> > >

> > > >From: " Jeff Novick " <jnovick@p...>

> > > >Reply-

> > > >< >

> > > >Subject: RE: [ ] Lower Total Cholesterol >>> Live

> >Longer

> > > >Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 16:24:05 -0400

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >From the Study Rodney posted today..

> > > >

> > > > >>Researchers found that a total cholesterol level of 193 or

> >lower at

> > > >age 30 to 45 was associated with a 25% lower risk of death

nearly

> >four

> > > >decades later.

> > > >

> > > >Well, Data from Framingham Heart Study showed that men in their

> >30s with

> > > >TC in the bottom 25% had about half the risk of dying from all

> >causes

> > > >just 3 years latter.

> >

[Guest guest]

So triglycerides was 50? Pretty amazing set of data!

Rodney.

> > > > > How low, if any value, is too low for total cholesterol?

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >From: " Jeff Novick " <jnovick@p...>

> > > > > >Reply-

> > > > > >< >

> > > > > >Subject: RE: [ ] Lower Total Cholesterol >>>

Live

> > > >Longer

> > > > > >Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 16:24:05 -0400

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >From the Study Rodney posted today..

> > > > > >

> > > > > > >>Researchers found that a total cholesterol level of 193

or

> > > >lower at

> > > > > >age 30 to 45 was associated with a 25% lower risk of death

> >nearly

> > > >four

> > > > > >decades later.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >Well, Data from Framingham Heart Study showed that men in

their

> > > >30s with

> > > > > >TC in the bottom 25% had about half the risk of dying from

all

> > > >causes

> > > > > >just 3 years latter.

> > > >

> >

[Guest guest]

" hardcore low carb diet " ? the Atkins diet?

> > > > > > > How low, if any value, is too low for total cholesterol?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >From: " Jeff Novick " <jnovick@p...>

> > > > > > > >Reply-

> > > > > > > >< >

> > > > > > > >Subject: RE: [ ] Lower Total Cholesterol >>>

> >Live

> > > > > >Longer

> > > > > > > >Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 16:24:05 -0400

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >From the Study Rodney posted today..

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >>Researchers found that a total cholesterol level of 193

> >or

> > > > > >lower at

> > > > > > > >age 30 to 45 was associated with a 25% lower risk of death

> > > >nearly

> > > > > >four

> > > > > > > >decades later.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >Well, Data from Framingham Heart Study showed that men in

> >their

> > > > > >30s with

> > > > > > > >TC in the bottom 25% had about half the risk of dying from

> >all

> > > > > >causes

> > > > > > > >just 3 years latter.

> > > > > >

> > > >

> >

[Guest guest]

Some excerpts. No conclusion since I can't vary mine much anyway (yet).

"Although the potential benefit of HDL-raising therapy has evoked considerable interest, current documentation of risk reduction through controlled clinical trials is not sufficient to warrant setting a specific goal value for raising HDL-C. Recent lipid-lowering drug trials provide no new evidence in this regard. 13 "

13. Dean BB, Borenstein JE, Henning JM, Knight K, Bairey Merz CN. Can change in HDL-cholesterol reduce cardiovascular risk?Am Heart J. 2004;147:966–976.

From:

Implications of Recent Clinical Trials for the National Cholesterol Education Program Adult Treatment Panel III Guidelines. Circulation. 110(2):227-239, July 13, 2004.

Figure:

LDL-C = 40 is rel risk of 1. (lowest point on chart).

"In the past, concern has been raised about potential dangers of reducing LDL to very low levels. Some epidemiological studies 31–33 suggest that very low serum cholesterol levels are associated with an increase in total mortality. In particular, an association with cerebral hemorrhage has been reported. "

31. Stemmermann GN, Chyou PH, Kagan A, Nomura AM, Yano K. Serum cholesterol and mortality among Japanese-American men: the Honolulu (Hawaii) Heart Program. Arch Intern Med. 1991;151:969–972.

32. Neaton JD, Blackburn H, s D, Kuller L, Lee DJ, Sherwin R, Shih J, Stamler J, Wentworth D. Serum cholesterol level and mortality findings for men screened in the Multiple Risk Factor Intervention Trial: Multiple Risk Factor Intervention Trial Research Group. Arch Intern Med. 1992; 152:1490–1500.

33. Iso H, Naito Y, Kitamura A, Sato S, Kiyama M, Takayama Y, Iida M, Shimamoto T, Sankai T, Komachi Y. Serum total cholesterol and mortality in a Japanese population. J Clin Epidemiol. 1994;47:961–969.

From:

Effect of Untreated Hypertension on Hemorrhagic Stroke. Stroke. 35(7):1703-1708, July 2004.

"Hypercholesterolemia has been associated previously with a decreased risk of ICH, and low cholesterol levels have been associated with an increased risk of ICH. 13–20 . We have found that a history of hypercholesterolemia is associated with a decreased risk for ICH and SAH. ...Further study of hypercholesterolemia in both ICH and SAH is warranted"

{intracerebral hemorrhage (ICH) and subarachnoid hemorrhage (SAH)}

13. Giroud M, Creisson E, Fayolle H, Andre N, Becker F, D, Dumas R. Risk factors for primary cerebral hemorrhage: a population-based study—the stroke registry of Dijon. Neuroepidemiology. 1995;14:20–26.

14. -Duarte A, Cantu C, Ruiz-Sandoval JL, Barinagarrementeria F. Recurrent primary cerebral hemorrhage: frequency, mechanisms, and prognosis. Stroke. 1998;29:1802–1805.

15. Okumura K, Iseki K, Wakugami K, Kimura Y, Muratani H, Ikemiya Y, Fukiyama K. Low serum cholesterol as a risk factor for hemorrhagic stroke in men: a community-based mass screening in Okinawa, Japan. Jpn Circ J. 1999;63:53–58.

16. Segal AZ, Chiu RI, Eggleston-Sexton PM, Beiser A, Greenberg SM. Low cholesterol as a risk factor for primary intracerebral hemorrhage: a case-control study. Neuroepidemiology. 1999;18:185–193.

17. Iribarren C, s DR, Sadler M, Claxton AJ, Sidney S. Low total serum cholesterol and intracerebral hemorrhagic stroke: is the association confined to elderly men? The Kaiser Permanente medical care program. Stroke. 1996;27:1993–1998.

18. Shinkawa A, Ueda K, Hasuo Y, Kiyohara Y, Fujishima M. Seasonal variation in stroke incidence in Hisayama, Japan. Stroke. 1990;21:1262–1267.

19. Yano K, DM, MacLean CJ. Serum cholesterol and hemorrhagic stroke in the Honolulu heart program. Stroke. 1989;20:1460–1465.

20. Thrift AG, McNeil JJ, Forbes A, Donnan GA. Risk factors for cerebral hemorrhage in the era of well-controlled hypertension. Melbourne risk factor study (MERFS) group. Stroke. 1996;27:2020–2025.

From:

Association of the -159 C -> T polymorphism in the CD14 promoter with variations in serum lipoproteins in healthy subjects. Blood Coagulation & Fibrinolysis. 14(7):663-670, October 2003.

"In long-term observational studies, Weverling-Rijnsburger et al. have shown that elderly subjects with a cholesterol level above 6.5 mmol/l were at 50% lower risk of dying from infection-related disease compared with subjects having cholesterol levels below 6.5 mmol/l [41] whereas, vice versa, low cholesterol levels have been associated with enhanced mortality [42]. Gordon et al. observed poor clinical outcomes in critically ill surgical patients with hypolipidemia [43]."

41. Weverling-Rijnsburger AW, Blauw GJ, Lagaay AM, Knook DL, Meinders AE, Westendorp RG. Total cholesterol and risk of mortality in the oldest old. Lancet 1997; 350:1119–1123

42. Schatz IJ, Masaki K, Yano K, Chen R, BL, Curb JD. Cholesterol and all-cause mortality in elderly people from the Honolulu Heart Program: a cohort study. Lancet 2001; 358:351–355.

43. Gordon BR, TS, Levine DM, Saal SD, Wang JC, Sloan BJ, et al. Relationship of hypolipidemia to cytokine concentrations and outcomes in critically ill surgical patients. Crit Care Med 2001; 29:1563–1568.

From:

Cholesterol Predicts Stroke Mortality in the Women's Pooling Project. Stroke. 33(7):1863-1868, July 2002.

A study analyzing the relationship of low cholesterol to all-cause mortality in a national cohort found that factors relating to underlying health status, such as a low level of physical activity, likely account for the increased risk of death. 38 "

38. T, Feldman JJ, Kleinman JC, Ettinger WH Jr, Makuc DM, Schatzkin AG. The low cholesterol-mortality association in a national cohort. J Clin Epidemiol. 1992; 45: 595–601.

I can't look at all of them.

Your choice.

----- Original Message -----

From: Dowling

Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 4:38 PM

Subject: RE: [ ] Lower Total Cholesterol >>> Live Longer

How low, if any value, is too low for total cholesterol?>From: "Jeff Novick" <jnovick@...>>Reply- >< >>Subject: RE: [ ] Lower Total Cholesterol >>> Live Longer>Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 16:24:05 -0400>>>From the Study Rodney posted today..>> >>Researchers found that a total cholesterol level of 193 or lower at>age 30 to 45 was associated with a 25% lower risk of death nearly four>decades later.>>Well, Data from Framingham Heart Study showed that men in their 30s with>TC in the bottom 25% had about half the risk of dying from all causes>just 3 years latter.

[Guest guest]

> > >

> > > Cholesterol 111

> >mg/dl

> > > (140-200 mg/dl)

> > >

> > > LDL 34 mg/dl

> > > HDL 67

> >mg/dl > or = 40

> > > mg/dl

> > > Chol/HDL Ratio 1.7

Hi All,

Yes, the numbers amaze.

For example, the total cholesterol/HDL ratio exceeds

even the standard deviation of values of CRers

in the WUSTL study.

What were levels of lipids before your CRON and what

are they for your other family members, Chris?

Cheers, Al Pater.

[Guest guest]

Are you suggesting that your lipid profile was even better on a diet

of bacon and sausage??

> > > > > > > > > How low, if any value, is too low for total cholesterol?

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >From: " Jeff Novick " <jnovick@p...>

> > > > > > > > > >Reply-

> > > > > > > > > >< >

> > > > > > > > > >Subject: RE: [ ] Lower Total

Cholesterol >>>

> > > >Live

> > > > > > > >Longer

> > > > > > > > > >Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 16:24:05 -0400

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >From the Study Rodney posted today..

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >>Researchers found that a total cholesterol level

of 193

> > > >or

> > > > > > > >lower at

> > > > > > > > > >age 30 to 45 was associated with a 25% lower risk

of death

> > > > > >nearly

> > > > > > > >four

> > > > > > > > > >decades later.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >Well, Data from Framingham Heart Study showed that

men in

> > > >their

> > > > > > > >30s with

> > > > > > > > > >TC in the bottom 25% had about half the risk of

dying from

> > > >all

> > > > > > > >causes

> > > > > > > > > >just 3 years latter.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > >

> >

[Guest guest]

I was looking at the things that you ate and thinking of it in terms

of the cholesteremic/anticholesteremic factors according to Hegsted

and Perlman (http://tinyurl.com/4xdrc):

>>>

Bacon, sausage, eggs, eggs, eggs (albeit high omega 3), cheese, nuts,

along with veggies, soy protein, whey protein, etc.

>>>

According to the equations:

==> Dietary cholesterol in meats and dairy have negligible effect on

serum cholesterol.

==> The myristic acid (C14:0) in the meats and butterfat of the cheese

increases serum cholesterol.

==> The linoleic acid (C18:2) in the nuts decreases serum

cholesterol.

Out of curiosity, could you say what ratio of meats to nuts you

consumed?

Tony

======

Message 14772

From: " Dowling " <dowlic@h...>

Date: Tue Sep 14, 2004 4:30 pm

Subject: RE: [ ] Re: Lower Total Cholesterol >>> Live

Longer

Kinda looks like that, to me.

>From: " freebird5005 " <freebird5005@y...>

>Reply-

>

>Subject: [ ] Re: Lower Total Cholesterol >>> Live Longer

>Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 20:19:55 -0000

>

>Are you suggesting that your lipid profile was even better on a diet

>of bacon and sausage??

>

>

> > > > Triglycerides 54 mg/dl

> > >

> > > > (10-150 mg/dl)

> > > >

> > > > I don't know if these results are as good as the ones I got 2

years

> > >ago,

> > > > when I was on the hard core " low carb " diet:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Cholesterol 151 mg/dl 175-260

> > > > LDL 36 mg/dl

> > > > HDL 105 mg/dl

> > > > Chol/HDL Ratio 1.4

[Guest guest]

Sat fats from animal sources is primary source of serum cholesterol

but dietary cholesterol will also increase serum cholesterol.

I find it hard to believe his numbers were even better eating all that

fat.

> > > > > Triglycerides 54 mg/dl

> > > >

> > > > > (10-150 mg/dl)

> > > > >

> > > > > I don't know if these results are as good as the ones I got 2

> years

> > > >ago,

> > > > > when I was on the hard core " low carb " diet:

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Cholesterol 151 mg/dl 175-260

> > > > > LDL 36 mg/dl

> > > > > HDL 105 mg/dl

> > > > > Chol/HDL Ratio 1.4