Re: Dr. Castelli's Views on Saturated Fats

[Guest guest]

>>And still further he notes that the impact on lipids of a high saturated fat

diet is even greater than that measured by standard cholesterol tests. This is

because the tests are normally done after an eight to ten hour fast. But the

atherogenic effects (chylomicron

remnants) peak around the time the meal is eaten and then diminish dramatically

as the hours go by. So they are much greater in the period immediately

following a high fat meal than when the tested blood is normally drawn many

hours later.

There was a study done in 2002 (Ann Intern Med. 2002:136:523-528) that measured

coronary blood flow and TG level prior to and 5 hours after eating either a high

fat or a low fat meal. (ABSTRACT below)

On the low fat meal there was no significant difference in either variable

measured. In the high fat meal, 5 hours later, TGs were double the pre meal

level and blood flow was reduced around 20%.

Fasting blood levels are great, but not always the best indicator of what may be

going on in the system..

Jeff

Change in Coronary Flow Reserve on Transthoracic Doppler Echocardiography after

a Single High-Fat Meal in Young Healthy Men

Takeshi Hozumi, MD; Marc Eisenberg, MD; Kenichi Sugioka, MD; Aravind R.

Kokkirala, MD; Hiroyuki Watanabe, MD; Masakazu Teragaki, MD; Junichi Yoshikawa,

MD; and Shunichi Homma, MD

2 April 2002 | Volume 136 Issue 7 | Pages 523-528

Background: High-fat meals and elevated triglyceride levels are associated with

cardiovascular disease. In recent studies of brachial artery vasoactivity, a

single high-fat meal reduced endothelial function in young healthy men. It is

unknown whether coronary microcirculation is affected after high-fat meals.

Objective: To evaluate change in coronary flow reserve after a single high-fat

meal.

Design: Controlled interventional study.

Setting: University hospitals.

Patients: 15 young healthy men (mean age [±SD], 29 ± 4 years).

Intervention: Coronary flow reserve was determined by using transthoracic

Doppler echocardiography before and after consumption of a high-fat meal in all

15 men and before and after consumption of a low-fat meal in 5 of 15 men.

Measurements: Coronary flow reserve, lipid levels, and hemodynamic

characteristics.

Results: In all men, triglyceride levels increased significantly from baseline 5

hours after the high-fat meal, from 1.1 mmol/L to 2.8 mmol/L (100 mg/dL to 250

mg/dL) (P < 0.001). Average coronary flow reserve was 4.02 before and 3.30 5

hours after the high-fat meal (decrease, 18% [95% CI, 13% to 23%]). In the 5 men

who received both meals, mean coronary flow reserve decreased by 0.79 after the

high-fat meal and increased by 0.07 after the low-fat meal (difference, -0.86

[CI, -1.36 to -0.37]; P = 0.03). Mean triglyceride levels increased by 1.6

mmol/L (140 mg/dL) after the high-fat meal and 0.1 mmol/L (10 mg/dL) after the

low-fat meal (difference, 1.5 mmol/L [CI, 0.3 to 2.7 mmol/L], 130 mg/dL [CI, 23

to 236 mg/dL]; P = 0.03).

Conclusions: Coronary flow reserve decreased after a single high-fat meal in

young healthy men. High-fat meals may be detrimental to coronary

microcirculation.

[Guest guest]

--- In , " Rodney " <perspect1111@y...>

wrote:

> So the actual views held by the source you provided to support your

> arguments about the causes of heart disease, ARE THE OPPOSITE of

what

> you would have us believe them to be. You quoted the first part of

> the story, then for some reason omitted the rest - that is, by far

> the most important part. In my opinion, that was less than helpful.

In my defense, " omitting the rest " wasn't intentional. So this

incident does illustrate a great reason for the requirement of

references for claims made in here. Unfortunately, the research that

Castelli's quote was taken from wasn't in PubMed. I stupidly assumed

the research would lend additional support to the non-causative

contention.

Still, the fact is Dr. Castelli is clarifying his quote post-facto

due to sloppy research. The damage has long been done judging by the

large number of sources using his quote " out of context " . :-)

Anyway, I think it's more productive to move onto examining the

behavior of individual saturated fatty acids at this point, just as

we do with LA, ALA and OA. It's clearing up a lot of the hype, both

ways.

Logan

[Guest guest]

I think you have a valid point in that I could classify all research as "sloppy" in the context they left something out. Once I did an analysis as a young engineer and proved to my satisfaction that a gas stove was much superior to an electric. To my chagrin after buying a gas stove, I found I had left out several critical parameters. (timing, cleaning, pot selection, efficiency).

That's essentially what they do, albeit they probably leave them out due to not knowing a lot about the human body. That's why I need a lot of evidence before I start taking a new drug or "fad" chemical.

Once established these fad chemicals need a lot of research to kill off, when it could be spent on finding new efficacious chemicals.

A lot of studies have been made on which fatty acid is the best and as I recall no fat won out when they finally did the olive oil compare to no fat. I spent about 5 hrs yesterday looking at full text on "low cholesterol" and there are articles (Japanese) that say some animal fat is better to ward off stroke. But notice the group of 80 yos that exist have survived the CVD in the 60's. I am not swayed to eat animal fat just because someone's numbers indicate that, especially in a group who eat a lot of seafood.

In the U.S., ischemic stroke is still dominant, but Dr Castelli's original quote may have still some validity as we get to 85yo. I recall he was looking at Framingham data, not cause and effect data.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: loganruns73

Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 8:38 PM

Subject: [ ] Re: Dr. Castelli's Views on Saturated Fats

Still, the fact is Dr. Castelli is clarifying his quote post-facto due to sloppy research. The damage has long been done judging by the large number of sources using his quote "out of context". :-)Anyway, I think it's more productive to move onto examining the behavior of individual saturated fatty acids at this point, just as we do with LA, ALA and OA. It's clearing up a lot of the hype, both ways.Logan

[Guest guest]

> .......... Still, the fact is Dr. Castelli is clarifying his quote

post-facto

> due to sloppy research.

My impression is different from yours. My impression is that

Castelli made that complete statement, including what you

call " clarification " , at the same time, to demonstrate the dangers of

sloppy research. If you find otherwise, please post it.

> Anyway, I think it's more productive to move onto examining the

> behavior of individual saturated fatty acids at this point, just as

> we do with LA, ALA and OA.

> Logan

Not sure I entirely agree with this either (although I recognize that

you can make the same criticism of me in this respect). The facts

seem to be that CRON drops all the CVD risk factors off the bottom of

their respective charts. So, if the risk factors have anything to do

with the risk of suffering CVD, all we have to do to avoid CVD is

adopt CRON.

Having done that it would seem that heart disease issues are likely

to be of only peripheral interest to people who read the material

available here and adopt what it suggests in their own lives. Why

waste time discussing a disease from which most of us here will be

unlikely to suffer?

In addition, why spend a lot of time discussing the results of

studies related to heart disease that were done on people who are

almost always over weight or obese (significant risk factor for the

disease) - rarely anywhere remotely close to what most of us believe

here to be optimal weight. It doesn't seem likely that, at least in

the case of heart disease, these studies will have much relevance to

anyone on CRON.

Much better, imo, to adopt a CRON diet and then devote time and

effort to finding out how to prevent the OTHER things that 'will kill

you' or, more specifically, **us**.

The same probably applies to diabetes.

Rodney.

[Guest guest]

The ON in CRON requires determining the optimal fatty acid and

nutritional intake at the least. I suspect CR without ON would just

delay the inevitable. So I consider it critical to know exactly why

and how the ON works so I can optimally prevent the diseases that may

arise from living longer. Not much point to doing CR otherwise. :-)

Consider this rough polarization: CR without further optimization and

broadening of ON (without creating a new acronym) could be

illustrated by Walford's cause of death. But ON without CR at all

could be illustrated by ing's cause of death. Neither extreme is

ideal.

But I do agree with you somewhat. After the leading two causes of

death (strokes and heart attack), comes cancer and liver disease...

Logan

--- In , " Rodney " <perspect1111@y...>

wrote:

> Much better, imo, to adopt a CRON diet and then devote time and

> effort to finding out how to prevent the OTHER things that 'will

> kill you' or, more specifically, **us**.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/14/04 6:00:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, perspect1111@... writes:

And still further he notes that the impact on lipids of a high

saturated fat diet is even greater than that measured by standard

cholesterol tests. This is because the tests are normally done after

an eight to ten hour fast. But the atherogenic effects (chylomicron

remnants) peak around the time the meal is eaten and then diminish

dramatically as the hours go by. So they are much greater in the

period immediately following a high fat meal than when the tested

blood is normally drawn many hours later.

Here's an interesting photo (if it makes it to the list) of centrifuged dog blood shortly after a fatty meal, from:

http://arbl.cvmbs.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/digestion/smallgut/absorb_lipids.html

Some of the accompanying text is as follows:

"Centrifuge the blood sample to separate cells and plasma.

When you examine your plasma it will look distinctly milky due to the presence of billions of light-reflecting chylomicrons (the condition is called lipemia)... you can simply examine the image to the right to see what dog serum looks like after several hours of fasting in comparison to lipemic serum collected shortly after a meal of puppy chow."

--

Ken