Re: Re:Pycnogenol & Grapeseed Extract (-good guys!)

[Guest guest]

Alan,

I have found Pycnogenol/Grapeseed extract to be amongst the the most clearly

helpful supplements (- & I take a LARGE number of sups.!)

I have now been taking Pycno. & /or GSX almost w.o. a break for around 7

yrs. -When I first started with Pycno. the improvement in my energy & sense

of well being was so great that I actually thought for a while that I had

" cracked it " & would simply go on improving!!!

-Although this didn`t turn out to be the case, I still regard the

proanthocyanidins (the form of anti-oxidants found in both pycnogenol &

grapeseed extract) as a valuable support: As I recall, the significance of

this form of anti-oxidant is that it has the rare characteristic of being

able to penetrate the blood/brain barrier.

( I am curious about Olive Leaf & may try it some time as I suspect that I

may have a slight Candida problem!)

Best Wishes,

Gerald (SPMS)

----- Original Message -----

From: " alanms1579 " <alanms@...>

<low dose naltrexone >

Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2004 4:28 AM

Subject: [low dose naltrexone] Re: LDNer Copa/NO Theory - Aegis

> Any thoughts on Pycnogenol, Grapeseed or Olive Leaf? I think they

> are all billed as Antioxidants.

....................

[Guest guest]

Gerald/Alan,

There is

evidence to suggest that taking too much of a powerful antioxidant can

actually

be harmful (think I first read it on Steve Shackel's website) and I

view myself

as a victim of that. Back in the mid to

late 1990's I took high doses of Revenol pycnogenol for a number of

months. Pycnogenol is claimed to be a

very potent antioxidant (claimed to be 30 times more powerful than Vit

E).

When I

look back now that was the period in which my speech took a real nose

dive in

only a couple of months and in retrospect I believe it was the high

dosage of

pycnogenol which probably caused that.

Before that my speech was slowly getting worse and since then it

has

very slowly got worse again, but during the time I was taking high

doses of

pycnogenol it deteriorated very quickly. May not be a connection but

it seems to me that there was. I do believe it is good in moderation.

gerald rollason wrote:

Alan,

I have found Pycnogenol/Grapeseed extract to be amongst the the most

clearly

helpful supplements (- & I take a LARGE number of sups.!)

I have now been taking Pycno. & /or GSX almost w.o. a break for

around 7

yrs. -When I first started with Pycno. the improvement in my energy

& sense

of well being was so great that I actually thought for a while that I

had

"cracked it" & would simply go on improving!!!

-Although this didn`t turn out to be the case, I still regard the

proanthocyanidins (the form of anti-oxidants found in both pycnogenol

&

grapeseed extract) as a valuable support: As I recall, the significance

of

this form of anti-oxidant is that it has the rare characteristic of

being

able to penetrate the blood/brain barrier.

( I am curious about Olive Leaf & may try it some time as I suspect

that I

may have a slight Candida problem!)

Best Wishes,

Gerald (SPMS)

--

.

,-._|\ Covington / Oz \ \_,--.x/ v

[Guest guest]

,

I was dismayed to see your message casting doubt on the safety of Pycnogenol!

-Syncronicity-.......

Actually, for some reason, it brought to mind a story I once read about an elderly man whose house was blown up by a gas explosion: -On searching through the ruins, rescuers found the man in the remains of his bathroom. -He was OK, though in a state of shock, still in the bath! He turned to his rescuers & announced in awed tones that he had only put his toe in the tap!!!

I do not recount this in any way to belittle your experience or challenge your right to form any theories you may choose about it!

However I do feel that to allow your undeniably speculative view to go unchallenged would not be in the interest of all those who potentially stand to gain from the use of pycnogenol: Those who, because of their current possible lack of knowledge of it`s efficacy or extensive record of safe usage over many decades, might have their judgement clouded by an isolated tenuous speculative theory like yours!

I was intending to include here some relevant passages from a very informative booklet :

" The New Superantioxidant-Plus"

The amazing story of Pycnogenol, free-radical antagonist and vitamin C potentiator

(This is by the renowned biochemist A. Passwater, Ph.D., a major authority in preventative health care.)

However I realized that this would presumably be an infringement of copyright!

-Fortunately I came across a page on the web on which the info on Pycnogenol consists of some direct quotes from Dr. Passwater`s booklet........

Passages on the safety of Pycnogenol , it`s importance to brain function & more can be found at:

http://www.realtime.net/anr/pycnogen.html#Brain

Should anyone have any actual wellfounded reports re. problems with pycno. I would be interested to see them:

Right now, I doubt if there are any!

Thanks for your attention,

Gerald (SPMS)

----- Original Message -----

From: C

low dose naltrexone

Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 4:13 PM

Subject: Re: [low dose naltrexone] Re:Pycnogenol & Grapeseed Extract (-good guys!)

Gerald/Alan,There is evidence to suggest that taking too much of a powerful antioxidant can actually be harmful (think I first read it on Steve Shackel's website) and I view myself as a victim of that. Back in the mid to late 1990's I took high doses of Revenol pycnogenol for a number of months. Pycnogenol is claimed to be a very potent antioxidant (claimed to be 30 times more powerful than Vit E). <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> When I look back now that was the period in which my speech took a real nose dive in only a couple of months and in retrospect I believe it was the high dosage of pycnogenol which probably caused that. Before that my speech was slowly getting worse and since then it has very slowly got worse again, but during the time I was taking high doses of pycnogenol it deteriorated very quickly. May not be a connection but it seems to me that there was. I do believe it is good in moderation.gerald rollason wrote:

Alan,I have found Pycnogenol/Grapeseed extract to be amongst the the most clearlyhelpful supplements (- & I take a LARGE number of sups.!)I have now been taking Pycno. & /or GSX almost w.o. a break for around 7yrs. -When I first started with Pycno. the improvement in my energy & senseof well being was so great that I actually thought for a while that I had"cracked it" & would simply go on improving!!!-Although this didn`t turn out to be the case, I still regard theproanthocyanidins (the form of anti-oxidants found in both pycnogenol & grapeseed extract) as a valuable support: As I recall, the significance ofthis form of anti-oxidant is that it has the rare characteristic of beingable to penetrate the blood/brain barrier.( I am curious about Olive Leaf & may try it some time as I suspect that Imay have a slight Candida problem!)Best Wishes,Gerald (SPMS)-- .

,-._|\ Covington / Oz \ \_,--.x/ v

[Guest guest]

Sheesh Gerald!!

The woods around your area must be full of the bodies of people who had

a different point of view to yours! Or do you supplement your income

by selling pycnogenol through a MLM company? :-)

Aegis is correct - what I was saying is that pycnogenol is such a

potent antioxidant that, like anything in large doses, it can have a

negative effect. I will try to find where I read about the potential

problems of large doses of powerful antioxidants on the weekend, but at

3am on a day when I am meant to be at work in less than a decent amount

of sleep I am not up to it now...........

:-(

If you have read my previous postings you would know that I am a very

strong proponent of antioxidants. In the first five years after my

diagnosis with PLS I deteriorated fairly rapidly, needing a walking

frame or wheelchair to get around and losing most of my speech. During

that time I had taken various antioxidants in an inconsistent fashion,

including the time with pycnogenol that was the topic of my earlier

email. The antioxidants didn't seem to have helped and in fact as

mentioned the high doses of pycnogenol corresponded with a period of

rapid decline in my speech - my belief based on the period before then

and after then was that the HIGH doses were responsible for that.

Then I read the then fledgling website being put together by Steve

Shackel (http://home.goulburn.net.au/~shack/) and decided to get

organised and serious about my approach to antioxidants. I started

ordering a wide range of antioxidants from the US based on what I had

read, deciding to go for smallish quantities of a range of antioxidants

rather than large doses of only one or two. Within 6 months my decline

halted and in the 6 years since then I have basically held my own, a

fact for which I am extremely grateful.

Can I prove that the antioxidants are responsible for my

stabilisation? I have now come to know my body very well, but of

course I can't prove it any more than I can prove that the rapid

decline in my speech was caused by high doses of pycnogenol. Maybe I

am just holding my tongue right these days or maybe it's cursing the

almighty ------ (fill in your own blanks depending on your religion or

lack thereof) that is making the difference.

I am also finding that I am walking much better since starting LDN but

maybe I am imagining it or maybe it's all in the way I hold my tongue -

who knows?

aegis_on_ms wrote:

Actually, 's point is that Pycnogenol may have toxic effects if

taken in LARGE doses.

> ,

> I was dismayed to see your message casting doubt on the safety of

Pycnogenol!

>

> -Syncronicity-.......

> Actually, for some reason, it brought to mind a story I once read

about an elderly man whose house was blown up by a gas explosion: -

On searching through the ruins, rescuers found the man in the

remains of his bathroom. -He was OK, though in a state of shock,

still in the bath! He turned to his rescuers & announced in awed

tones that he had only put his toe in the tap!!!

>

> I do not recount this in any way to belittle your experience or

challenge your right to form any theories you may choose about it!

> However I do feel that to allow your undeniably speculative view

to go unchallenged would not be in the interest of all those who

potentially stand to gain from the use of pycnogenol: Those who,

because of their current possible lack of knowledge of it`s efficacy

or extensive record of safe usage over many decades, might have

their judgement clouded by an isolated tenuous speculative theory

like yours!

>

> Should anyone have any actual wellfounded reports re. problems

with pycno. I would be interested to see them:

> Right now, I doubt if there are any!

>

> Thanks for your attention,

>

> Gerald (SPMS)

--

.

,-._|\ Covington / Oz \ \_,--.x/ v

[Guest guest]

Hi !

I`m sorry that my response to your message was couched in such harsh & cutting terms!

-It would have been wiser for me to have dealt with my irritation before responding, so that I could have expressed my views in a gentler way.........

I will try to be more careful in future!

Actually, I have no financial interest in Pycnogenol, Grapeseed extract or Enzogenol ! (-an excellent New zealand pine bark extract development-) However, prior to commencing LDN & Benfotiamine, I did consider the proanthocyanidins that are contained in Pyc.Gsx. & Enz. with their rare capacity to penetrate the blood/brain barrier ( & "tidy things up" in there!) to be the most helpful substances that I had found in my efforts to become free of, or at least minimize my MS symptoms! ( This was on a foundation of a wide range of vitamin & mineral supplements that I was already taking, - & still do! )

It seems obvious to me that optimum nutritional support, along with full breathing & an appropiate level/ type of exercise & amount of sleep will contribute to maximizing the chances of a good outcome to our efforts to improve our health. ( I am conscious that I have not specifically even touched on the very important -most important, fundamental point: What we are doing with our hearts/minds.)

May you have further success in managing your PLS!

Best Wishes,

Gerald (SPMS)

PS. -Have you tried taking your vit.B12 as methylcobalamin in a sublingual high dose form?

----- Original Message -----

From: C

low dose naltrexone

Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2004 6:37 PM

Subject: Re: [low dose naltrexone] Re:Pycnogenol & Grapeseed Extract (-good guys!)

Sheesh Gerald!!The woods around your area must be full of the bodies of people who had a different point of view to yours! Or do you supplement your income by selling pycnogenol through a MLM company? :-) Aegis is correct - what I was saying is that pycnogenol is such a potent antioxidant that, like anything in large doses, it can have a negative effect. I will try to find where I read about the potential problems of large doses of powerful antioxidants on the weekend, but at 3am on a day when I am meant to be at work in less than a decent amount of sleep I am not up to it now........... :-( If you have read my previous postings you would know that I am a very strong proponent of antioxidants. In the first five years after my diagnosis with PLS I deteriorated fairly rapidly, needing a walking frame or wheelchair to get around and losing most of my speech. During that time I had taken various antioxidants in an inconsistent fashion, including the time with pycnogenol that was the topic of my earlier email. The antioxidants didn't seem to have helped and in fact as mentioned the high doses of pycnogenol corresponded with a period of rapid decline in my speech - my belief based on the period before then and after then was that the HIGH doses were responsible for that.Then I read the then fledgling website being put together by Steve Shackel (http://home.goulburn.net.au/~shack/) and decided to get organised and serious about my approach to antioxidants. I started ordering a wide range of antioxidants from the US based on what I had read, deciding to go for smallish quantities of a range of antioxidants rather than large doses of only one or two. Within 6 months my decline halted and in the 6 years since then I have basically held my own, a fact for which I am extremely grateful. Can I prove that the antioxidants are responsible for my stabilisation? I have now come to know my body very well, but of course I can't prove it any more than I can prove that the rapid decline in my speech was caused by high doses of pycnogenol. Maybe I am just holding my tongue right these days or maybe it's cursing the almighty ------ (fill in your own blanks depending on your religion or lack thereof) that is making the difference.I am also finding that I am walking much better since starting LDN but maybe I am imagining it or maybe it's all in the way I hold my tongue - who knows?aegis_on_ms wrote:

Actually, 's point is that Pycnogenol may have toxic effects if taken in LARGE doses. > ,> I was dismayed to see your message casting doubt on the safety of Pycnogenol!> > -Syncronicity-.......> Actually, for some reason, it brought to mind a story I once read about an elderly man whose house was blown up by a gas explosion: -On searching through the ruins, rescuers found the man in the remains of his bathroom. -He was OK, though in a state of shock, still in the bath! He turned to his rescuers & announced in awed tones that he had only put his toe in the tap!!!> > I do not recount this in any way to belittle your experience or challenge your right to form any theories you may choose about it!> However I do feel that to allow your undeniably speculative view to go unchallenged would not be in the interest of all those who potentially stand to gain from the use of pycnogenol: Those who, because of their current possible lack of knowledge of it`s efficacy or extensive record of safe usage over many decades, might have their judgement clouded by an isolated tenuous speculative theory like yours!> > Should anyone have any actual wellfounded reports re. problems with pycno. I would be interested to see them:> Right now, I doubt if there are any!> > Thanks for your attention,> > Gerald (SPMS)-- .

,-._|\ Covington / Oz \ \_,--.x/ v

[Guest guest]

Hi Gerald,

No worries! :-)

I probably over reacted too............

One of the antioxidant tablets I do take once per day is actually VitC

with Grapeseed extract but it is a very lose dose compared to what I

took when on Revenol. Actually, you have made me think about taking

pycnogenol again in its own right because of its ability to cross the

blood-brain barrier, but this time I would be very circumspect in the

quantities I took.

Next time I order my antioxidants from iHerb.com I will get some

sublingual B12 as they have about half a dozen varieties to choose

from. Have been buying my vitamins/antioxidants from iHerb for about 3

years and they are great, although since they went from US Postal

Service to DHL for deliveries to Australia I have been hit with customs

charges and duties totalling about 2/3 of the cost of the order - makes

it a very expensive exercise! Have now started getting them delivered

to a friend in the US who then sends them on using USPS. So far no

customs charges, so seems to work well!

Cheers,

PS Where in the UK are you? (my wife is English and after my diagnosis

we did a 5 wk trip around a lot of England while I could still walk

without much difficulty - had a fantastic time!).

gerald rollason wrote:

Hi !

I`m sorry that my response to your

message was couched in such harsh & cutting terms!

-It would have been wiser for me to

have dealt with my irritation before responding, so that I could have

expressed my views in a gentler way.........

I will try to be more careful in

future!

Actually, I have no financial interest in Pycnogenol, Grapeseed extract or

Enzogenol ! (-an excellent New zealand pine bark extract

development-) However, prior to commencing LDN & Benfotiamine, I

did consider the proanthocyanidins that are contained in Pyc.Gsx. &

Enz. with their rare capacity to penetrate the blood/brain barrier

( & "tidy things up" in there!) to be

the most helpful substances that I had found in my efforts to become

free of, or at least minimize my MS symptoms! ( This was on

a foundation of a wide range of vitamin & mineral supplements

that I was already taking, - & still do! )

It seems obvious to me that optimum

nutritional support, along with full breathing & an appropiate

level/ type of exercise & amount of sleep will contribute to

maximizing the chances of a good outcome to our efforts to improve our

health. ( I am conscious that I have not specifically even touched on

the very important -most

important, fundamental point: What we are doing with our

hearts/minds.)

May you have further success in

managing your PLS!

Best Wishes,

Gerald (SPMS)

PS. -Have you tried taking your

vit.B12 as methylcobalamin in a sublingual high dose form?

--

.

,-._|\ Covington / Oz \ \_,--.x/ v